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seabosdca
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Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:19 pm

First mentioned by KarelXWB in the 787 production thread, but I think this is interesting enough to warrant a thread of its own. Julie Johnsson at Bloomberg is reporting that Ethiopian is late in talks to take 8 "Terrible Teen" 787-8s. This comes to light shortly after Boeing booked an unidentified order for 2 787s which was widely reported to be two early builds for Air Austral.

One question is exactly which frames are included. Early-build 787s that do not yet have a publicly identified customer include two test aircraft (LN 4 and LN 5); nine "teen" aircraft with 220 t MTOW and supposedly 4-6 t excess weight (LN 10 and LN 12-19); and one later-production aircraft with 228 t MTOW and supposedly ~3 t excess weight (LN 22). Air Austral has been rumored to take LN 15 and LN 22. NYC777 reported a few months ago that Boeing internally assigned LN 10 and LN 16 to LAN. LN 17 and LN 19 have been rumored on multiple occasions, without any confirmation, to go to Rwandair. If ET is going to take 8 early aircraft, at least some of this information is wrong.

I don't think the Rwandair order is solid enough to worry about. The real question is whether LAN will take LN 10 and LN 16. If so, that means Ethiopian would take the two test aircraft, a surprising turn of events. I think it's more likely that LAN won't actually take any early builds, and that ET will take 10, 12-14, and 16-19. In this case Boeing will still need to find VIP customers for 4 and 5.

The other question is how this order, if it happens, will affect the delivery schedule for the early aircraft. The last update from NYC777 showed Boeing delivering them gradually during 2015-2018. Will having a single customer for all of them speed up the schedule?

[Edited 2015-02-24 14:23:32]
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Thread starter):
Will having a single customer for all of them speed up the schedule?

I would think so. If someone wants them I would think Boeing could make them ready fairly quickly, although I am sure all 787 personnel are working flat out these days.
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Stitch
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:31 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Thread starter):
Will having a single customer for all of them speed up the schedule?

Perhaps not on the general Change Incorporation work, but for customer-specific work, absolutely.
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
Will having a single customer for all of them speed up the schedule

The EMC is currently working on 3 788 early birds, the 3 789 test frames, and tanker 767s. Once the 789s are finished this year, they should be able to work on 6 788s at a time. So that could be 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 (11, 12, 14, and 22 are/will be done by mid year) simultaneously getting modified. So by mid 2016 they' could probably be done, leaving 4, 5, and 10. Those could probably be ready by mid 2017. That would put line 10 at 8 years of storage post rollout before its first flight  Wow!
 
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777Jet
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Thread starter):
Julie Johnsson at Bloomberg is reporting that Ethiopian is late in talks to take 8 "Terrible Teen" 787-8s.

If this is true then great news for the early 'terrible teen' 788s - good for them to have perhaps found a home  
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max999
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:28 am

I'm guessing the old adage - 'you can sell anything at the right price' would apply in this situation.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:32 am

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):
I'm guessing the old adage - 'you can sell anything at the right price' would apply in this situation.

Given they are taking all of the remaining terrible teens I'm sure they are getting more of a discount than if they were just going to take a few  
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yellowtail
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:38 am

Where would ET fly these …medium haul in Africa?

With 777s and 350 on the way…they are going to have a lot of capacity
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seabosdca
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7):
Where would ET fly these …medium haul in Africa?

They ought to be good for anywhere in Africa, Europe, or Asia (except Japan). ADD is a nice location for connections from sub-Saharan Africa and East Africa to anywhere in Asia or Europe.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:14 am

ET has been looking for additional 788s for a while, just could not get slots and I presume lease rates were not to their likings (or all taken already).

This may turn out to be a great move. ET could put some of these with ASKY and its other sister companies for Africa-Europe or intra Africa routes.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
They ought to be good for anywhere in Africa, Europe, or Asia (except Japan). ADD is a nice location for connections from sub-Saharan Africa and East Africa to anywhere in Asia or Europe.

I think so too. Most African and ME, East Asia destinations should be good. I am not sure if this means they will finally retire the 767s which have gotten zero cabin upgrade in years?

[Edited 2015-02-24 21:18:25]
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 9):
am not sure if this means they will finally retire the 767s which have gotten zero cabin upgrade in years?

That would be a big upgrade for the customers. They have quite the motley, patched-together 767 fleet. The last three are nice, but it's hard to believe the older ET 767s were built in the late '90s rather than the late '80s.
 
dkny
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):

4 have left the fleet in the last six months. There are only 8 remaining and 1 dedicated for UN charters. So only 7 in the ET fleet
 
migair54
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:18 am

I'm sure I'll see them often in NBO, DAR, ZNZ and JRO replacing the B767. Yesterday I saw ET-ARE in DAR ar around 3 PM, one of the newest in the fleet. LOS, JNB, LUN, are good candidate Also.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 9):
I think so too. Most African and ME, East Asia destinations should be good. I am not sure if this means they will finally retire the 767s which have gotten zero cabin upgrade in years?

It must be, but not many routes ET has will with B787 be out of reach for this machines.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7):
With 777s and 350 on the way…they are going to have a lot of capacity

That's why I think these B787 will be doing routes were they want to add some seats and good volume for cargo, specially in some places in Africa.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:00 am

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 9):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
They ought to be good for anywhere in Africa, Europe, or Asia (except Japan). ADD is a nice location for connections from sub-Saharan Africa and East Africa to anywhere in Asia or Europe.

I think so too. Most African and ME, East Asia destinations should be good. I am not sure if this means they will finally retire the 767s which have gotten zero cabin upgrade in years?

I'd like to think they'll start the route in June to MNL via BKK with the 788, but latest info says a 767 will be used instead, like they planned in 2013?

http://www.philippineflightnetwork.c...an-airlines-flights-to-manila.html
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dkny
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
I'm sure I'll see them often in NBO, DAR, ZNZ and JRO replacing the B767. Yesterday I saw ET-ARE in DAR ar around 3 PM, one of the newest in the fleet. LOS, JNB, LUN, are good candidate Also.

LOS, JNB are already 787/777 mix, LUN is 787
 
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:08 pm

Does this imply a mix of engine types for ET?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 15):
Does this imply a mix of engine types for ET?

No, all aircraft can be converted during the change incorporation process.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:11 pm

Silly question: Can these overweight teens be put on a diet? Obviously a low sales price will mitigate to some degree the cost of the extra fuel they would have to burn. But can weight be reduced in these machines after the fact?
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:03 pm

ADD is at 7656ft which is going to crimp performance. For the 788 MTOW at ADD appears to be ~ 195t. 7hrs takes in a lot of ET's routes and with a 29t payload it should make the 195t limit at ADD.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:11 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 17):
Silly question: Can these overweight teens be put on a diet?

Depending on what parts need to be changed, it may be possible to replace them with the latest configuration, which may be lighter (Boeing was able to pull weight out of current 787-8 builds by using lighter parts developed for the 787-9). However, I expect the "diet" would only be in the hundreds of kilograms, so these planes will still be thousands of kilograms heavier than a current-spec 787-8.
 
karadion
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 15):

what differs from GE to their RR counterpart is the pylons that the engines are mounted to. Swap those pylons and a couple other things including software engine configurations and it's easily converted.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 17):
Can these overweight teens be put on a diet?

Most of the overweight is in the structure, so (as Stitch indicates) the effect of the diet would be marginal.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 18):
For the 788 MTOW at ADD appears to be ~ 195t.

Edit: Never mind what I had written here before about this being too pessimistic. I was misreading the ACAP. This looks right.

In any case, this is exactly why having ET take the teens is a great deal -- ET has no reason to care about the 220 t MTOW.

[Edited 2015-02-25 07:54:26]
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 17):
Can these overweight teens be put on a diet?

LOL. This makes me think about some bicycle enthusiast. They spend thousands of dollars trying to get the smallest grams off their bike frames while they carry extra kilograms around their bellies. You get the bike frame cheap and find your weight savings elsewhere.

If they can negotiate for the later engines with the improved fuel burn, they may be able to make up some of the difference.

bt
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
If they can negotiate for the later engines with the improved fuel burn, they may be able to make up some of the difference

A good point . I figured about 2.5% on the base engines for increased fuel burn for 5t overweight. . Not sure where the PIP's have got them to at this time.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:38 pm

the 2x to Air Austral are confirmed in the french local press

http://www.zinfos974.com/Air-Austral...re-de-nouvelles-lignes_a81965.html

1st in May 2016, operating Reunion / Mayotte and Mayotte / Paris twice weekly
2nd in October 2016, twice weekly Reunion / Bangkok as well as Reunion Chennai (unspecified frequency)
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 24):
1st in May 2016, operating Reunion / Mayotte and Mayotte / Paris twice weekly
2nd in October 2016, twice weekly Reunion / Bangkok as well as Reunion Chennai (unspecified frequency)

This seems like very low utilization .
 
ultrapig
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:12 pm

Tell us less educated a.netters. How overweight are the planes?

Do I assume correctly:

Since the plane is x pounds overweight can it still stake off with the same number of passengers but it may not have the ability to fly longer routes because it cannot haul enough fuel>> If so how much does this reduce the range of a fully loaned plane?

How much more fuel will it burn per hour because of the heavier weight?

If the extra expense in fuel guesitmated for the life of the plane is less than or equal to the discount from "regular price" is there any extra maintenance cost involved?
 
Alnicocunife
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 26):
If the extra expense in fuel guesitmated for the life of the plane is less than or equal to the discount from "regular price" is there any extra maintenance cost involved?

All early build aircraft cost more and weigh more than line number 100+. The advantage of buying these early build but receiving them years later is Boeing should have incorporated all of the previous Service Bulletin's and as stated earlier the latest engine PIP's. These will be very good aircraft and if they get a smoking deal will be economical and productive. Passengers do not know how old the aircraft is. ALL B787's are new and will remain so until another "new" aircraft comes out and 20 years from now these early build aircraft will be converted to freighters for another 20 years of service.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 26):
How overweight are the planes?

According to reports of uncertain accuracy:

LN 4/5: 6+ t
LN 10-19: 4-6 t (probably at the higher end of the range for pre-LN 16 frames that had to have the side of body mod done after assembly)
LN 22: ~ 3 t

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 26):
is there any extra maintenance cost involved?

There is certainly some extra cost for Boeing to produce the maintenance manuals, given the differences between these frames and later-production ones. It's unclear whether the cost to the airline of actually maintaining the aircraft will actually be higher.

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 27):
Passengers do not know how old the aircraft is.

   To an ET passenger, one of these will be the same as any other brand-new 787-8.

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 27):
these early build aircraft will be converted to freighters for another 20 years of service.

   Even if there is eventually a 787-8 P2F program (which I doubt, given the declining demand for dedicated freighters) I can't imagine pre-LN20 frames would be eligible. The structural differences would make the conversion more challenging and the lower maximum MTOW would make the frames unappealing as freighters.

Uncertainty about resale of these frames has almost certainly made it harder for Boeing to place them.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:15 pm

Its a good thing early builds found a home finally.

One area myself and seabosdca have a difference of opinion.

Do these birds get
a) Brand new components(like windshields, electronics, fuel pumps, spoiler actuators, ELTs ...) or
b) Same originally assigned components go through Total Component Service to bring up to latest spec.

I am with option b. because it will be cost prohibitive for Boeing to give all new components, but seabosdca thinks otherwise.
All posts are just opinions.
 
trex8
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:23 am

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 27):
The advantage of buying these early build but receiving them years later is Boeing should have incorporated all of the previous Service Bulletin's and as stated earlier the latest engine PIP's.

The structural mods etc I can see being incorporated but I would think B and the engine OEMS have no obligation to include the engine PIPS "free of charge" unless these are totally new engines just of the line. If the engines were stored for the last few years I would think the engine OEM wants a price for that PIP. Do power by the hour contracts include free hardware/software upgrades??
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:46 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 29):
One area myself and seabosdca have a difference of opinion.

You're not characterizing the difference of opinion quite correctly.

We agree that where the spec for a part has changed since an early build frame was built, Boeing may either install a new part or, if possible, modify the existing part to final spec. My point in that thread was only that if you look at what Boeing has actually done, through photos of actual aircraft going through change incorporation, it has installed many new parts during the change incorporation process. Presumably many parts cannot be modified to conform to spec and others may have already been modified and installed on other aircraft.

Either way, the customer will end up with an aircraft that incorporates all current revisions to non-structural parts.

[Edited 2015-02-25 16:47:37]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 30):
Do power by the hour contracts include free hardware/software upgrades??

At least with Rolls-Royce TotalCare, PiPs are included per articles I have read. I imagine GE OnePoint is the same.

[Edited 2015-02-25 18:13:38]
 
UA444
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 3):

Are you saying LN #10 has not even flown yet?
 
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 33):
Are you saying LN #10 has not even flown yet?

Except for flight test airplanes #4 and #5 and the KAL VIP 787 no other early build airplanes (still onsite) have flown yet -- in fact most have yet to have an engine installed. I'm guessing they'll all get the latest/greatest engines because the engines originally assigned (if at all) probably left on another airplane with a higher line number.

[Edited 2015-02-25 19:46:29]
 
UA444
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:13 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 34):

Wow. That is amazing to me that they have yet to even take to the air. Is there any precedent to this with any other program or is this new?
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 35):
Wow. That is amazing to me that they have yet to even take to the air. Is there any precedent to this with any other program or is this new?

Not that I know of. The 787 program was expecting everything to go smoothly so airplanes were in production prior to the rollout, between the rollout and the expected first flight and between the expected first flight and the actual first flight (wing stress issues). Except for flight test airplanes (#1 thru #6) and ANA (#7 thru #9)/JAL (#20 thru #21) which needed to be delivered the amount of rework required was far beyond what would have ever have been expected so it was easier and more efficient to deliver airplanes farther down the line and work the "teens" at a later time.
 
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 21):
In any case, this is exactly why having ET take the teens is a great deal -- ET has no reason to care about the 220 t MTOW.

They do not care about the MTOW difference, but they will feel every ton of reduced payload (cargo) or fuel due to the over-weight frames. That said, they will do well with these planes.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
LN 4/5: 6+ t
LN 10-19: 4-6 t (probably at the higher end of the range for pre-LN 16 frames that had to have the side of body mod done after assembly)
LN 22: ~ 3 t

IIRC, the 788 has about 120nm per ton of fuel. So the added structure costs 350nm to 750nm of range with a given payload. While there are many destinations still within range, the reality is they would have to be offered a very good price versus a new lease.

Which I'm sure they were....

I'd love to know how much Boeing is losing per airframe.

Lightsaber
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Alnicocunife
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
I'd love to know how much Boeing is losing per airframe.

Boeing is losing nothing, they are just not gaining as much. Boeing only makes money when they sell a plane.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 38):

What is the net loss per terrible teen? I know Boeing has better cash flow and less loss selling each 'terrible teen.'. I'm curious as to the losses still.

Only a flying airframe makes ancillary revenue too.

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sunrisevalley
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
IIRC, the 788 has about 120nm per ton of fuel

Very much in the FWIW department , from Piano-X a ACAP weight 788, 242 passenger load, 6000nm range at cruise does 103.7nm /t . If the weight is +5t it drops to ~101nm/t.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:12 pm

I'm sure the folks that run KPAE will be glad to have their 11/29 runway back

I can't remember what KPAE looked like before the teens took up residence on 11/29
 
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Stitch
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
What is the net loss per terrible teen?

Probably in the deep eight figures.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
What is the net loss per terrible teen?

Probably in the deep eight figures.

I expect something similar  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 40):

Very much in the FWIW department , from Piano-X a ACAP weight 788, 242 passenger load, 6000nm range at cruise does 103.7nm /t . If the weight is +5t it drops to ~101nm/t.

Thank you. I realized after I typed it my number was probably 'optimistic.' Still, that is great efficiency for a widebody. So that implies a little less of a range penalty than I was assuming.   

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
Probably in the deep eight figures.

That *almost* makes the sales price in the noise!    Oh well. At least they sold. I'm happy they sold for they only make revenue being delivered and ancillary revenue flying.

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sunrisevalley
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Thank you. I realized after I typed it my number was probably 'optimistic.' Still, that is great efficiency for a widebody. So that implies a little less of a range penalty than I was assuming.

The increase in fuel burn on the overweight frames is almost insignificant, especially on short sectors where takeoff and descending/landing fuel are a higher proportion of total fuel.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):

I'm guessing the old adage - 'you can sell anything at the right price' would apply in this situation

I'm sure there was a very generous discount for ET to take all 8, however I suspect the other details are as telling & interesting as the mere financial cost. The offers Boeing could have offered their loyal customer ET are endless, to future promises on aircraft price reductions, opportunity to push up slots or optional add ons for free, who kows for sure, but I'm positive any of us would enjoy to hear the details.

IIRC, this is not the first time ET has taken some Boeing aircraft (777s IIRC) that were in some similar position looking for owners, maybe I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Given they are taking all of the remaining terrible teens I'm sure they are getting more of a discount than if they were just going to take a few
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7):
With 777s and 350 on the way…they are going to have a lot of capacity

I bet ET has plans to Wet or Dry lease some of their planes to other African nations carriers, just a hunch, it sure would make sense since they are freeing up the 763s which likely will go.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 9):
This may turn out to be a great move. ET could put some of these with ASKY and its other sister companies for Africa-Europe or intra Africa routes.

   I think this gives ET some solid legs to stand on. They canmake some real decent money providing flights on a wet lease basis, for other African nations with failing or failed airlines (Zimbabwe comes to mind) .

They could dry lease to other carriers that may not be able to get preferential financing & KQ could make some money on charging higher lease fees with their own choice of restrictions (to cover ETs asses).

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
one of the newest in the fleet. LOS, JNB, LUN, are good candidate Also.

I don't think ET can run out of good options for their 788s, there is so much potential for ET, they are one of only 2 or 3 African carriers that have been doing well. It does amaze me that a carrier from this area has done so amazingly well for themselves, kudos to ET.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 18):
ADD is at 7656ft which is going to crimp performance. For the 788 MTOW at ADD appears to be ~ 195t. 7hrs takes in a lot of ET's routes and with a 29t payload it should make the 195t limit at ADD.

Using those metrics, what viable payload range can ET enjoy with the 788s they currently have & the 788s in the future, operating from ADD?

ET must plan on operating all their 788s into the ground, much like their 767s, as I doubt in 5 years time if these particular 788 models will have much resale value with the 359 flying & the lions share of 787s will be 900 models.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 25):
This seems like very low utilization .

That is Air Austral

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
What is the net loss per terrible teen?

I would bet just like a car dealer, having two or three year old "new cars" on the lot is bad for business, so I'm sure Boeing is taking a loss, but don't forget, ET has been a great Boeing customer for many years having bought many aircraft, plus ET was a launch customer of the 788.

Boeing will be able to write off the negative equity as a business loss & with the final financial success of the 787 program, these birds will not hurt Boeings bottom line too badly

I still think the other promises Boeing may or may not have given to ET would be far more interesting, not that we'll likely ever know those details.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
Probably in the deep eight figures.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 46):
Using those metrics, what viable payload range can ET enjoy with the 788s they currently have & the 788s in the future, operating from ADD?

At 195t TOW they will be good for ~29t payload anywhere in an 8hr. radius. This takes in most of their nearby destinations.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:56 pm

Still no word anywhere I've seen about whether this deal includes test frames 4 and 5. The suspense is killing me...   

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 46):
I suspect the other details are as telling & interesting as the mere financial cost.

   It would be absolutely fascinating to know some of the details about not just ET but all of the interested airlines -- how Boeing could sweeten the pot for each, and how much of a discount each would need before the teens would make sense.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 47):
At 195t TOW they will be good for ~29t payload anywhere in an 8hr. radius. This takes in most of their nearby destinations.

   At least 8 hours -- maybe even a bit more. That covers all of Europe and Africa. It also gets most of Asia, although I was a bit too optimistic in thinking they could get to the Far East. Among ET's current and planned destinations, These frames can probably make BKK/SIN/KUL/SGN, but I don't think they'll do any of the China cities. Oh well, there will be plenty of later 787s/A350s/777s for that.
 
ETinCaribe
Posts: 473
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RE: Report: ET Takes Remaining 787 "Teens"

Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 48):
Still no word anywhere I've seen about whether this deal includes test frames 4 and 5. The suspense is killing me...

Same here. I suspect A and B are working hard to ensure the other doesn't lock them out. I would think B would sweeten the deal if ET would commit to the 777X program. On the A side, probably pitching a combination of 330CEO + A350X.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 48):
At least 8 hours -- maybe even a bit more. That covers all of Europe and Africa. It also gets most of Asia, although I was a bit too optimistic in thinking they could get to the Far East. Among ET's current and planned destinations, These frames can probably make BKK/SIN/KUL/SGN, but I don't think they'll do any of the China cities. Oh well, there will be plenty of later 787s/A350s/777s for that.

I agree, range is not going to be an issue. What i am worried about is that ET doesn't have a plane that would fit in between the 738 and 788s. That may speak to the lack of a natural 757 replacement. They will have too much capacity in many places which may stimulate the market but also put them on a collision course against the ME3s.

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