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scbriml
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 24):
I'm not sending my metal to a nation full of terrorist bastards. Especially with a big ole American flag on the tail... It's gonna get blown the hell up soon as it hits the Tarmac

Your metal?

Yep, planes are being blown up every day in DXB, AUH and DOH.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
strfyr51
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
I'm tired of footing the bill because our airlines can't or won't try to compete with the products & services being offered by EK, QR, TK or ??? They come in the in the form of bankruptcy or in this case frivolous lawsuits.

so tell me? How are YOU footing the Bill?? Exactly? I you don't want to fly any of the majors? then you're free Not to. Am I right??
After all This is AMERICA and we have the freedom of Choice Don't we? My wife just departed ORD this morning for SFO
She was Booked on the 0600 flight and the asked her to take the 0703 because the 0600 was oversold. So OBVIOUSLY
Not Everybody (or Nobody) agrees with you.. To compete? Both players have to be on the SAME Field.
What We're talking about is Wringers playing Pro Ball against High School'ers. The ME carriers are "Paid to PLAY"
Were the USA-3 subsidized? It might be Even. But it Isn't Otherwise? How did they get a 59Page report?
They didn't make it up out of whole sack cloth did they?? Who Compiled the Report?? Where are the facts From??
Tim Clark isn't even an American.. Who is HE to tell the US Congress ANYTHING ?? All he need DO?? is Set the record Straight.
Did you?? OR?? Did you NOT get the subsidies ?? All of this histrionics isn't necessary.
Delta American and United made what $6B in profits? Tell me what or Why they should LET the ME3 in without a fight...
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:28 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
They had a lot from NW.

And DL's Airbus order was purely based on fleet requirement and aircraft's technical merits!!!

If DL takes its business somewhere else out of spite, ME3 orders are not going cover the loss for Boeing. Boeing is in between rock and hard place.
All posts are just opinions.
 
avek00
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting FirstClass (Reply 56):
In the interest of the US consumer, the US government should allow foreign airlines to carry passengers as is already the case on some intra EU routes BUT I am afraid this will never happen.

Tell me how US consumers outside of the top 20 domestic city pairs would possibly benefit from this. Hint: they won't.
Live life to the fullest.
 
phillyramp270
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 61):

If AA was to send a fleet of widebodys to the middle east, you think the planes won't be targeted? You think AA flight attendants or US citizens won't be targeted by ISIS or ISIL or whatever they are? Trust me, it kills me to think like this, not all Muslims are evil. But the sheer number of radicals causes a great concern, UA can't afford it to lose any of its 747s cause of a bomb. Or AA losing a 777 due to a SAM. Would you trust your kids flying on a AA 777 over Iraq? I rest my case
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
strfyr51
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
Well, I am not hoping for escalations as such, but if they were to go to court I think EK (and QR and EY) have a very strong position against the the made allegations by the US-carriers, with DL "leading" the way in this department. Which makes a sad impression on me.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************
there's little problem with that. It's called "disclosure" (there's a legal name for it but at the moment it escapes me.)
I served on a federal Court Trial about the same thing and the plaintiff LOST because to sustain the CASE??
They would have had to OPEN their Books for Examination by the Defense.
Now if Clark Can and is willing to DO that?? They could put this entire case to REST.
How much do you have to bet He Won't??
What I'll BET?!?
Is that this goes from a civil matter to a Social Matter played out in the Govt. realm and NOT the Courts!!
 
surfdog75
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting FirstClass (Reply 56):

You say this debate summarizes the sad state of affairs? I'll take this sad state of affairs any day. Th US runs the safest, most efficient , cost effective system for moving large amounts of people over long distances. If this is sad then bring on more sadness.
 
KaiTak747
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:49 pm

I'm not even sure why the US airlines are so worried.

Domestic, South American, European and most East Asian flying is completely unaffected.

The only place where EK is taking traffic is South Asia, which has almost zero service from US airlines anyway! (apart from a couple of UA flights to India, which considering the population of India and the US this service is minimal)
 
ripcordd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 68):

They are only worried that Europe will let ME3 have more 5th freedom flights like JFK-MXP that is a huge risk to US and European carriers ...
 
phillyramp270
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 68):

I just wish the US3 could safely stick it to the ME3 and start flying into the Middle East to actually compete. It's hard to go up against an A380 from a customer POV. If I had the choice to fly on a 380 or a 777. Other than being a Boeing fan.. I'm fly on a 380. Than there's load factors, freight margins, fuel etc.

[Edited 2015-02-26 10:01:01]
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
EK have has this document on their website for ages, no one has come out and demonstrated it contains any errors

http://www.emirates.com/english/imag...20position%20new_tcm233-845771.pdf

Well, maybe not an "error" per se, but the alleged €800 million "bailout payment" by the German government into Lufthansa's pension fund mentioned half a dozen times in that document is massively misrepresented at least.

That payment was made in the context of preparing LH for the final stages of privatization, and it was at that time legally necessary for LH to even be allowed to raise more capital on the stock market for itself. At the time in the mid-1990s, the German government still had a majority stake of more than 50% in the airline - so in a sense it was largely paying money to itself, anyway. Until that time, all LH employees were treated like public officers with respect to pension matters, and they were therefore members of a large German government pension fund. In order for the government share in LH to be able to legally drop below 50%, all active LH employees (many thousands) had to be transferred away from the government pension system to LH's own company fund. After extensive negotiations, it was decided that the government would support this transformation with this, admittedly substantial, payment. However, as I described, this happened in the context of a complex reorganization and change of ownership structure and for legal reasons - with the objective of allowing LH to raise enough money on the stock market to reform itself and develop on its own.

Although the government's actions at that time certainly greatly facilitated LH's privatization and further development, to simply paint this as a "bailout payment" is a massive misrepresentation.

It is somewhat dishonest to compare a decades-old, large goverment-owned flag carrier airline with many thousands employees hired effectively as public officers and unsolved problems accumulated over many years like LH in the mid-1990s to EK, at that time still a fairly small startup airline founded a few years earlier as a private corporation by design (albeit using government seed money).

Some insights into the processed back then (in German) can be found here:
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13682955.html
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
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thekorean
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:59 pm

Hey EK if you want Open Skies how about UAE actually offering anything of value? Oh they have nothing to return? You get nothing. That is fair.
 
bgm
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 62):
so tell me? How are YOU footing the Bill?? Exactly? I you don't want to fly any of the majors? then you're free Not to. Am I right??
After all This is AMERICA and we have the freedom of Choice Don't we? My wife just departed ORD this morning for SFO
She was Booked on the 0600 flight and the asked her to take the 0703 because the 0600 was oversold. So OBVIOUSLY
Not Everybody (or Nobody) agrees with you.. To compete? Both players have to be on the SAME Field.
What We're talking about is Wringers playing Pro Ball against High School'ers. The ME carriers are "Paid to PLAY"
Were the USA-3 subsidized? It might be Even. But it Isn't Otherwise? How did they get a 59Page report?
They didn't make it up out of whole sack cloth did they?? Who Compiled the Report?? Where are the facts From??
Tim Clark isn't even an American.. Who is HE to tell the US Congress ANYTHING ?? All he need DO?? is Set the record Straight.
Did you?? OR?? Did you NOT get the subsidies ?? All of this histrionics isn't necessary.
Delta American and United made what $6B in profits? Tell me what or Why they should LET the ME3 in without a fight...
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 66):
there's little problem with that. It's called "disclosure" (there's a legal name for it but at the moment it escapes me.)
I served on a federal Court Trial about the same thing and the plaintiff LOST because to sustain the CASE??
They would have had to OPEN their Books for Examination by the Defense.
Now if Clark Can and is willing to DO that?? They could put this entire case to REST.
How much do you have to bet He Won't??
What I'll BET?!?
Is that this goes from a civil matter to a Social Matter played out in the Govt. realm and NOT the Courts!!

With all due respect, you really need to work on your writing abilities. There's way too much capitalization, hyperbole, and red herrings in these diatribes.   
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 28):
This is the biggest subsidy SA)">DL, SA)">AA and SA)">UA received.

Anyone have any idea how much debt, pension liabilities etc the US 3 have been able to shed during their time in ch11?

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):
To compete? Both players have to be on the SAME Field

And ch11 puts the US3 on the same field as who?

[Edited 2015-02-26 15:03:21]
 
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thekorean
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 63):

Ch.11 is not anymore different than what was done to Swissair and SN Brussels Airlines.

People here ned to study up on Ch.11 and what that is. Government money doesn't come evn close to it.
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 64):

I didn't say it was government money, come on, read the post correctly before telling me what i need to study up on.

Its not the level playing field that's a lot of posters on this forum demand the ME3 play by. It seems the field has to be level as long as it tilts in favour of the US3.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:55 pm

Dubai was bailed out by Abu Dhabi, so technically every adventure Dubai funding is part of that.

Dubai's debt is 104% of GDP, 55% of its debt is government owned.

Dubai to UAE is Greece to EU. Live large and look to brothers for bailout.
All posts are just opinions.
 
BravoOne
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:06 am

Does anyone here actually think the violence seen in the ME over the last few years will not spread to the UAE?
When and if that happens, all this hand wringing will be for naught as the world will have significantly greater problems.
 
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zeke
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 60):
It is somewhat dishonest to compare a decades-old, large goverment-owned flag carrier airline with many thousands employees hired effectively as public officers and unsolved problems accumulated over many years like LH in the mid-1990s to EK, at that time still a fairly small startup airline founded a few years earlier as a private corporation by design (albeit using government seed money).

I dont think for a second its dishonest all, LH did receive government support in the past. I think the help LH was given is similar to the 1.2 billion in debt the Australian Government wrote off to QF when they were privatized. In both cases they were one off events to convert the airlines from being state owned. These were not regular methods available to all sectors in their respective countries.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 66):
Dubai to UAE is Greece to EU. Live large and look to brothers for bailout.

No, Dubai is to UAE, as New York is to the USA. Dubai is citiy/state within the UAE much like New York being a city/state within the USA. Richard Anderson have having a go at the governments of UAE and Qatar, not the airlines.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
SkyTeamTriStar
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 6):
They are average at best and frankly they don't seem to aspire to be anything better.

People are only willing to pay for just so much.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
I wonder how much those same US airlines benefit from foreign airlines not being able to operate flights solely within the US under cabotage rules

No more so than the vast and overwhelming majority of other countries do from theirs  


Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 23):
ME3 "We rest"
US3 "Islam, Al-Qaeda, Muslim"

Jury " NOT GUILTY!"

LOL, sad... but probably accurate.


Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 32):
I feel that DL is lost, they don't know what do they want.

DL is making more money than just about anyone else in the biz... "lost" is about the last thing that could be accurately used to describe them.


Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 59):
It's hard to go up against an A380 from a customer POV

Based on what? I dare say 99% of pax have no idea what they're riding.
It's not as if multiple stories are a new thing either, so that doesn't do much to differentiate.


Quoting thekorean (Reply 64):
People here ned to study up on Ch.11 and what that is.

      
....nor do they realize how much it's changed post 2005.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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zeke
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 70):
No more so than the vast and overwhelming majority of other countries do from theirs

Have a look at the EU and South America.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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RWA380
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 24):
Which international traffic are you talking about, US originated?

Yes of course, that is what is at the crux of this discussion is about.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 41):

The argument that US Airlines are making all this profit and not lowering fares due to cheap oil is hogwash how many years did they lose billions to subsidize air travel sure they are making money now but they still have a long way to go to make up for all the years of loses and the next down turn is not far away

The fact that "fuel surcharges" that were allowed when oil tipped over $100 a barrel are still being charged, even though skyrocketing fuel costs are not a current concern, those "fuels surcharges" were meant to help airline survive the fuel spikes, not to upgrade IFE, buy new planes or pay big bonuses, when fuel surcharges are taken away & the airlines are making good profits without taking that fee, then it'll be running correctly.

Quoting flyingcaT (Reply 47):
What does this have to do with taxpayer money, he is clearly threatening a lawsuit against a company.

You don't think trhe courts are free do you? The Judges & all the support staff just donate their time? The buildings maintenance or utilities are free too? This will cost the US taxpayer plenty.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):
so tell me? How are YOU footing the Bill?? Exactly? I you don't want to fly any of the majors? then you're free Not to. Am I right?

With my sizable tax payments, you are paying those costs as well if you pay taxes.

Quoting bgm (Reply 62):
With all due respect, you really need to work on your writing abilities. There's way too much capitalization, hyperbole, and red herrings in these diatribes.

        
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
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thekorean
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 65):

I am sure if EK was around for a long time and had labor union to negotiate with at some point they would have to reorganize.
 
S75752
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):

After all This is AMERICA and we have the freedom of Choice Don't we?

A freedom of choice that the US3 are fighting to limit.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):
To compete? Both players have to be on the SAME Field.

Nope. In theory, yes. In practice, that's probably not how things really work. The USA is no exception. There are very many who actively fight to remove the government regulation of business that is supposed to maintain a level playing field.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):
Who is HE to tell the US Congress ANYTHING ??

Because US Citizens stand to benefit from the ME3 services as well, and very possibly moreso than the US3 Services and joint ventures that would take them through ridiculous places like FRA or LHR. It's possible that more will ultimately benefit people more than the pricey but low quality US3 options do for the (small niche of) applicable routes.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):
Tell me what or Why they should LET the ME3 in without a fight...

They shouldn't. They should fight with their prices, their product, their profit margins. But they choose not to, and instead decide to fight in the cheapest way possible; putting out some paper crying foul to try and take advantage of American sentiments toward foreign companies and practices.

And honestly, subsidies are not an alien thing in the USA under different names and words.

Who the hell cares if the ME3 gets a subsidy. If UA or their AI/9W want to take some traffic back, start that obvious SFO-DEL already.
 
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thekorean
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 74):

US citizens won't benefit from more EK flights that much. Unless US government was crazy enough to let EK fly domestic with foreign employees.


US3 can't fight with prices and service, that is the problem. Unions are a thing in this country.
 
S75752
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 75):
US3 can't fight with prices and service

Even with unions, they could if they wanted to, and if travellers would become resourceful enough to know what Seatguru is. Those billions of dollars of profit is where they can fight, but choose not to. They could start more nonstop flights like SFO-DEL but they choose not to. A fraction of those billions could be put to retrofits to increase passenger comfort, toward better meals, etc. But they choose not to.

US Citizens will benefit to wherever EK flies them to for lower prices and more convenience. And that happens to be the Middle East and India.
 
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thekorean
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 76):

No, they cannot. But US3 does not compete with ME3 that much anyway.

Thats the thing too, US3 don't fly to India and ME3 much, and their European counterparts don't on the level that ME3 does neither.
 
S75752
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 77):


No, they cannot.

Why can't they? The only way I can see them not competing is if the ME3 were to just raise the bar higher and higher each time. Which would be a good thing. However, even if that is the case, then the ME3 are but an exception in such a scenario. The US3 fall behind other carriers in a plethora of other ways, so that at least would give them the drive to get level with other foreign carriers.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 77):
But US3 does not compete with ME3 that much anyway.

That's pretty much my other reasoning on why it doesn't matter anyways. The ME3 serve a niche very well, but aren't a threat to anything but that little niche. At all. The JFK-MXP seems like an odd fluke if anything.
 
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thekorean
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 78):

The thing with ME3 is that while the skilled employees are well paid, without Union they are very flexible (e.g easy to fire them). That goes a long way in labor cost.

Not to mention US3 have higher taxes.
 
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RJ321
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):

Talking about escalading events between the airlines.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 71):
Have a look at the EU and South America.

What exactly do you want me to look at?

The EU: which wants to be seen as a single union when it's convenient to be, and as a collective of completely autonomous nation-states otherwise.... well, what about it? What intercon carriers are flying intra-EU on anything more than a token tag? And if FR/U2 is your example, how's that any different than the US' interstate mix?

South America, you have what, LAN and Avianca... which are really just half-owned domestic subsidiaries d.b.a. "LAN" or "Avianca," and not actually foreign competitors. So again, what's to see?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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CARST
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:17 am

I hope so much that they will take 'em to court. Really. And then the ME3 get kicked out of it big time.

Once they get to court and really want to show that the US3 are wrong with their statements regarding the unfair advantages of the ME3, they have to open up. And by opening up everyone will know about their labour tactics, their unfair advantages regarding subsidies, tax exemptions, slave-like workers from Bangladesh who built their airports and facilities and all the other stuff that is going on like ultra-cheap credits to finance their huge orders, not possible in the free western world.


And you know what? They have no interesting in opening up and showing us the truth. And because of that they will never go to court. Case closed.
 
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speedbored
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 82):
Once they get to court and really want to show that the US3 are wrong with their statements regarding the unfair advantages of the ME3, they have to open up.
Quoting CARST (Reply 82):
And you know what? They have no interesting in opening up and showing us the truth. And because of that they will never go to court. Case closed.

But that's not how a libel action would work.

If, for example, EK took Richard Anderson to court for slander/libel, it would be up to RA to prove that what he has been saying is true. It would not be up to EK to prove that it is not, so they do not have to open up anything except as required to counter any evidence that might be presented.

Otherwise, anyone and everyone wanting access to privileged commercial information would just be throwing out wild libelous accusations all over the place.
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:04 am

I think when EK hinted about the court action that is because they mean it, they want to bring the subject to an end.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
mjoelnir
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 64):
Government money doesn't come evn close to it.

The government taking over the pension funds is not government money?
 
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sassiciai
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:12 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 82):

I hope so much that they will take 'em to court. Really. And then the ME3 get kicked out of it big time.

Once they get to court and really want to show that the US3 are wrong with their statements regarding the unfair advantages of the ME3, they have to open up. And by opening up everyone will know about their labour tactics, their unfair advantages regarding subsidies, tax exemptions, slave-like workers from Bangladesh who built their airports and facilities and all the other stuff that is going on like ultra-cheap credits to finance their huge orders, not possible in the free western world.


And you know what? They have no interesting in opening up and showing us the truth. And because of that they will never go to court. Case closed.

Woah! I though all the hillbilly nonsense had been removed yesterday by the Moderators, but it seems I'm wrong.

How can you post this rubbish in what is now post 82 (after many post deletions) - I think it shows an inability to read and understand the preceding 80-odd posts, or a bigoted POV that no amount of rational discussion will ever influence. Last I knew, none of the ME3 owned any airports, and all the moaning about financing aircraft purchases has been explained above ad nausiam

I think that the US3 probably have more dirty washing to hide from public view that the ME3, particularly Emirates which is a rather transparent organisation. Bring on the court case - then we'll all see everyone's dirty washing! However, this case is unlikely to see the light of day
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:16 am

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 54):

What the hell are you talking about? What does the risk (whatever it may be) of overflying Iraq have to do with whether the ME3 received subsidies? In fact, what does this rant have to do with anything, actually? If I've assembled this correctly, you think that if US3 started flying (more?) to DOH or DXH, they'd be bombed...by ISIS? This is a poorly formulated argument.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9428
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:21 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 81):
The EU: which wants to be seen as a single union when it's convenient to be, and as a collective of completely autonomous nation-states otherwise.... well, what about it? What intercon carriers are flying intra-EU on anything more than a token tag? And if FR/U2 is your example, how's that any different than the US' interstate mix?

I would rather say the USA posters on this net like to do that. The distinction were the EU is one block, economical, trade, movement of capital, movement of labour and service, and not one block, politically including foreign affairs, is very clear.

Several USA airlines had an extensive route system in Europe, including aircraft stationed there. I would assume competition in Europe got to hot compared to the closed domestic USA market, so they pulled out.

[Edited 2015-02-27 00:37:31]
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19626
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 77):
No, they cannot.

Yes they can. They just chose not to.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 77):
But US3 does not compete with ME3 that much anyway.

Then what's the problem?   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
PlaneInsomniac
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:34 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
I dont think for a second its dishonest all, LH did receive government support in the past.

But to call it a "bailout payment" or similar half a dozen time in that document, when it clearly was not, certainly is.

Moreover, LH at that time still WAS the government. So one should not make too much of the fact that money was transferred by the government, in particular in exchange for the airlline taking over pension liabilities from the government for thousands of employees.

Simply stating that they "received government support" is certainly distorting the picture to the point of being dishonest.

Frankly, if this is the level on which the discussion takes places, one could also go as far as saying that some of the anti-EK myths are also "more or less" true.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1947
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 75):
US3 can't fight with prices and service, that is the problem. Unions are a thing in this country.

Wait, DL has the largest profit margin in history and they cannot compete on price and service? Why? Do they need to have a 20% margin before they can compete on quality with the SQ's of the world?

Quoting thekorean (Reply 77):
Thats the thing too, US3 don't fly to India and ME3 much, and their European counterparts don't on the level that ME3 does neither.

Yes the US airlines do not fly to India, but their alliance partners do and for every passenger that books on EY, EK and QR to India instead of the JV across the ocean and their alliance to their destination costs them money. So while they do not compete directly on routes, they are competing for the passengers that they feel they are losing.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 64):
Ch.11 is not anymore different than what was done to Swissair and SN Brussels Airlines.

People here ned to study up on Ch.11 and what that is. Government money doesn't come evn close to it.

So the around $30B in taxes that will not be paid due to their previous losses is not taking money from the government. I actually have no problem with this, if this is the way the rules are written then the airlines are free to take advantage of it. But it is a little hypocritical complaining about tax in the UAE and not acknowledging that all airline have advantages that they use that is not available to others.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...y-trim-its-us-tax-bill-hint-europe

Quoting thekorean (Reply 73):
I am sure if EK was around for a long time and had labor union to negotiate with at some point they would have to reorganize.

But they don't, so it is a advantage for EK. They do not have a huge domestic market and routes that other airline have though.
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1798
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:31 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 91):

Tax breaks are not unique to American corporations. And even if it wasn't it is no where enough to consider it even vs ME3.

BTW guys, labor union is a good thing, not pest that needs to be gotten rid of. UAE should have unions and not other way around.
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1947
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:40 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 92):
Tax breaks are not unique to American corporations. And even if it wasn't it is no where enough to consider it even vs ME3.

BTW guys, labor union is a good thing, not pest that needs to be gotten rid of. UAE should have unions and not other way around.

Every airline will use every little advantage it can get to maximise profits, but it seems it is only a bad thing if it is the ME3 airlines that benefit. If it is showed that other airlines also benefit from various tax laws available to only them and use any scrap they can find it is explained away as no big deal.

I agree that unions are a good thing. I am very pro-union. I do however understand that there are places where they will decide not to allow/have unions. That is why Boeing moved some 787 work out of Washington. The thing is, if you are applying to work at EK you should be aware that there is no chance of getting a union. When you sign that contract you will need to accept that. It is your personal choice to do so, and seeing the amount of staff that go to work for EK it seems that they agree with this choice.

I know there is a lot of turnover of staff at the ME3 carriers, but it is not always the case that the working conditions are to blame though. Not everyone in this world is cut out to move to another country with a strange culture. Some just cannot adapt and need to move back to their home country. It's no-one's fault if this happens.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:48 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 62):
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 62):so tell me? How are YOU footing the Bill?? Exactly? I you don't want to fly any of the majors? then you're free Not to. Am I right??After all This is AMERICA and we have the freedom of Choice Don't we? My wife just departed ORD this morning for SFOShe was Booked on the 0600 flight and the asked her to take the 0703 because the 0600 was oversold. So OBVIOUSLYNot Everybody (or Nobody) agrees with you.. To compete? Both players have to be on the SAME Field. What We're talking about is Wringers playing Pro Ball against High School'ers. The ME carriers are "Paid to PLAY"Were the USA-3 subsidized? It might be Even. But it Isn't Otherwise? How did they get a 59Page report?They didn't make it up out of whole sack cloth did they?? Who Compiled the Report?? Where are the facts From??Tim Clark isn't even an American.. Who is HE to tell the US Congress ANYTHING ?? All he need DO?? is Set the record Straight.Did you?? OR?? Did you NOT get the subsidies ?? All of this histrionics isn't necessary. Delta American and United made what $6B in profits? Tell me what or Why they should LET the ME3 in without a fight... Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 66):there's little problem with that. It's called "disclosure" (there's a legal name for it but at the moment it escapes me.)I served on a federal Court Trial about the same thing and the plaintiff LOST because to sustain the CASE?? They would have had to OPEN their Books for Examination by the Defense. Now if Clark Can and is willing to DO that?? They could put this entire case to REST. How much do you have to bet He Won't?? What I'll BET?!? Is that this goes from a civil matter to a Social Matter played out in the Govt. realm and NOT the Courts!! With all due respect, you really need to work on your writing abilities. There's way too much capitalization, hyperbole, and red herrings in these diatribes.

Is This to detract from the Question? or you don't have an answer? And I wrote what I meant to write!!
Like it or Not!!
Answer the question!!
 
sierra3tango
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:59 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:08 pm

There's quite an interesting bit here at routes online

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/...e=the-hub&utm_campaign=the-hub-MDL

Seems to suggest the US3 are trying to crank up the Europeans
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:13 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 94):
Is This to detract from the Question? or you don't have an answer? And I wrote what I meant to write!!
Like it or Not!!
Answer the question!!

Which question are you referring to? There are 37 question marks in the 2 quotes from your posts!

I suspect that you will probably take this the wrong way but it is intended as friendly advice:-

bgm has got a point - many of your posts come across as unintelligible rants from someone who appears to need anger management classes. I suspect that most people probably give up on even trying to understand the points you are trying to make and simply skip over your posts because they require too much effort to understand.

You would probably have more success in getting your points heard if you cut down on the capitalization and question marks and introduced more completely structured sentences and paragraphs to make your posts appear less of a rant and more of a reasoned argument.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10608
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 49):
Lets see how much export financing they get ontop of the 1 billion they have for their regional aircraft.

Should be none, at the time when the EU and the USA thought only their carriers counted they agreed to not provide such services to their carriers.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 95):
Seems to suggest the US3 are trying to crank up the Europeans

Well EU carriers have been complaining about the ME3 years ago, the first places those A380's went was to Europe not the USA, I'm sure there are more ME3 flight to the EU than the USA, hence my thought that the current spate is the USA taking up the EU cause. In Europe they are also looking at ME3 investments in EU carriers, that has not arrived at the US shores yet, when it does...........
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8831
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 83):
Quoting sassiciai (Reply 86):

There is something called civil discovery in our legal system. Emirates cannot simply sue US3 and watch fun and eat popcorn while US3 defending themselves.

If US3's allegation is hidden subsidy, and EK is suing US3 for that allegation, US3 can ask EK to produce every document they (US3) think is remotely relevant.

Its not just selective presentation on their website. All the nitty gritty dirty details have to be made available to defense team.

Any non-cooperation by plaintiff during discovery process will cost dearly.
All posts are just opinions.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23447
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 98):

And when nothing untoward is found, it'll cost the US3 dearly...
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!

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