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dubaiamman243
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EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:24 am

Emirates Airline president, Sir Tim Clark, has called for the right of reply to the 55-page dossier prepared by three American airlines claiming unfair subsidies and presented to the US government.

source: http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/emi...on-against-us-subsidy-critics.html

Interesting times ahead!

[Edited 2015-02-26 00:25:21]

[Edited 2015-02-26 00:29:07]
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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zeke
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EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:17 am

Good,

I hope they do take them to court.

DL seem to be pulling punches domestically and internationally

"Delta, Alaska Airlines Go to War Over Seattle" http://www.wsj.com/articles/delta-al...-go-to-war-over-seattle-1404076082
DL "worried" About Spirit? (by psa188 Feb 23 2015 in Civil Aviation)

EK have has this document on their website for ages, no one has come out and demonstrated it contains any errors

http://www.emirates.com/english/imag...20position%20new_tcm233-845771.pdf
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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RWA380
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EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:18 am

Another waste of US taxpayer money, right now the ME3 which are all oil rich states who are currently flooding the world market with oil to choke smaller & less wealthy counterparts, while also putting the thumbscrews to Russia.

This is why we are enjoying reasonable gasoline prices again, the US airlines are not passing it along to the consumer, however EK has recently stated that is wishes to eliminate the "fuel surcharges" levied on each International ticket, which carrier is giving the impression that they care of their flyer base before spreadsheets.

My point being, these places have SO MUCH MONEY that a long protracted legal battle will only impact the US taxpayers, those carriers & countries have massive piles of US 100 dollar bills to use to fight us with with.

I'm tired of footing the bill because our airlines can't or won't try to compete with the products & services being offered by EK, QR, TK or ??? They come in the in the form of bankruptcy or in this case frivolous lawsuits.

Of course our US carriers don't want to cede the lions share of International traffic to state sponsored carriers from half a world away, I get that, but if you US airlines want to keep loyal customers step up your game!

Stop screwing your customers while you make record profits, quit playing a victim & get better at what you do.

I have no problem with airlines making money, that's the idea of a business, but when y'all are raking in millions upon millions in profits, and then continue to reduce service levels, reduce seat space, reduce to eliminate food & beverage options, reduce amenities & reduce staffing levels at call centers, customer service positions, then have the balls to charge us for the privilege of taking anything other than the clothing on our backs or in a backpack on a trip.

Why is it when DL forces itself into Seattle at the expense of a partnership with AS, uses the partnership as a disguise to try & get in good with the loyal AS flyer & then overlays the AS route map & that's just business.

But when the ME3 want to connect every sizable population center in the US with the middle east so we can connect to the rest of the world, it's unfair & we must call upon the government to try & step in & fight their battles for them?

Yet now DL is at the front of this, crying foul because a bigger International carrier is taking away market share from them, mainly because the ME3 can offer better prices in many cases, it just sucks when someone bigger, who has more money try's to take away things that you thought were yours or you could have, doesn't it?

I have a very good friend who just left for KTM for two weeks to get his wifes first child from a previous marraige in Nepal.

He took SQ over PDX-SFO-HKG-SIN-KTM, but he is coming back KTM-DXB-SEA-PDX with fly Dubai & EK. Why? because EK was $200 less per person than the next best option originating there. $1600.00 for two coming back, all in, not too bad.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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Andy33
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EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):

Where did you get the idea that Dubai was oil rich? It isn't, it is certainly a wealthy state but the money comes from trade and tourism, not oil. Now Abu Dhabi and Qatar are a different matter, but the person who is complaining works for Dubai-based Emirates. When Hogan of Etihad or AlBaker of Qatar start legal action the oil money argument might stand up.
 
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enzo011
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EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:45 am

So we have the some shots aimed at Boeing and the impact this could have on them from the quotes in the article,

Quote:
"We have invested heavily in the U.S. aerospace industry and a lot of what we have done with regard to market access has allowed us to go and place these orders, for which we have contracts in place," Clark said. "I don't want to be seen as threatening or intimidatory but I am hoping that the U.S. government thinks about all of this." - See more at: http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/emi....html#sthash.fvgxKkWD.dpuf
 
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moo
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EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):
claiming unfair subsidies and presented to the US government.

I wonder how much those same US airlines benefit from foreign airlines not being able to operate flights solely within the US under cabotage rules...
 
ukoverlander
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:06 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
quit playing a victim & get better at what you do

I didn't agree with everything you wrote but I thought the above was a nice, concise statement of what the US3 need to do. They are average at best and frankly they don't seem to aspire to be anything better.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:57 am

I think Sir.Clark is speeding up the process and forcing USDOT's hand.

Generally US Government would prolong decisions on such issues for years and I was expecting US3 to take DOT to court for inaction. Now ME3 are doing it for them.
All posts are just opinions.
 
trex8
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:21 pm

What court action can EK possibly take except libel? And good luck on that. Unless the US authorities in the future put up various actions the other side may deem contrary to signed agreements there is nothing to go to court about at this time.
 
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enilria
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
Good,

I hope they do take them to court.

The show alone would be wonderful.  
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):

Another waste of US taxpayer money, right now the ME3 which are all oil rich states who are currently flooding the world market with oil to choke smaller & less wealthy counterparts, while also putting the thumbscrews to Russia.

This is why we are enjoying reasonable gasoline prices again, the US airlines are not passing it along to the consumer, however EK has recently stated that is wishes to eliminate the "fuel surcharges" levied on each International ticket, which carrier is giving the impression that they care of their flyer base before spreadsheets.

My point being, these places have SO MUCH MONEY that a long protracted legal battle will only impact the US taxpayers, those carriers & countries have massive piles of US 100 dollar bills to use to fight us with with.

I'm tired of footing the bill because our airlines can't or won't try to compete with the products & services being offered by EK, QR, TK or ??? They come in the in the form of bankruptcy or in this case frivolous lawsuits.

With the exception of Dubai being an oil rich State, I agree. The US3 picked a terrible time to force this issue as they are so awash in cash that they are publicly debating over what to do with all of it.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
Of course our US carriers don't want to cede the lions share of International traffic to state sponsored carriers from half a world away, I get that, but if you US airlines want to keep loyal customers step up your game!

Sorry, but the high yield customers are not going to connect from the USA to Europe/China/Japan/Australia/etc via the Middle East. That's the vast bulk of USA long-haul international traffic. It is all under essentially 0 threat from EK.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
Why is it when DL forces itself into Seattle at the expense of a partnership with AS, uses the partnership as a disguise to try & get in good with the loyal AS flyer & then overlays the AS route map & that's just business.

But when the ME3 want to connect every sizable population center in the US with the middle east so we can connect to the rest of the world, it's unfair & we must call upon the government to try & step in & fight their battles for them?

Because DL is not used to being in the weaker position. I support DL in the DAL kerfuffle, but on this they are completely wrong.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 7):
Generally US Government would prolong decisions on such issues for years and I was expecting US3 to take DOT to court for inaction. Now ME3 are doing it for them.

I'm not sure going to court speeds anything up EVER.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 8):

What court action can EK possibly take except libel?

It would be libel. Getting damages would be very difficult, however, since to have damage they would have to succeed in dropping Open Skies based upon false information.

Good news if you are Delta, though. If they lose a multi-billion dollar judgement they can just file Ch11 again, never pay the claim, and drop another few billion in pension debt on the U.S. taxpayer in the process.

On another note, who else thinks that the senior management (top 8-12 execs) of a large company that uses Ch11 should be barred from working there in the future as some sort of punishment for steering the company into Ch11 in the first place?
 
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speedbored
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 8):
What court action can EK possibly take except libel?

Well, given what TC said,:
"Delta is maligning us, leading people down a path which is based on unsubstantiated false allegations and that is very serious. It could be commercially damaging to us and if it is we will consider all our options,"
it sounds like libel action is exactly what he is considering.
 
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EPA001
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
I hope they do take them to court.

Well, I am not hoping for escalations as such, but if they were to go to court I think EK (and QR and EY) have a very strong position against the the made allegations by the US-carriers, with DL "leading" the way in this department. Which makes a sad impression on me.
 
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zeke
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
Well, I am not hoping for escalations as such, but if they were to go to court I think EK (and QR and EY) have a very strong position against the the made allegations by the US-carriers, with DL "leading" the way in this department. Which makes a sad impression on me.

I think the US3 have every right to collate and present information to the DOT, I do not think however that should be made public in an adverse way beforehand.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:31 pm

So everyone should dismiss documentary evidence (some are AUDIT4 certified financial documents) just because the other side said "false".
All posts are just opinions.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
Sorry, but the high yield customers are not going to connect from the USA to Europe/China/Japan/Australia/etc via the Middle East. That's the vast bulk of USA long-haul international traffic. It is all under essentially 0 threat from EK

Agree, but the US3 are afraid of what EK can do on US-Europe flights, like the JFK-MXP route.
 
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zeke
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 13):
So everyone should dismiss documentary evidence (some are AUDIT4 certified financial documents) just because the other side said "false".

Some very heavy weights in the financial world have a different view.

“The main criticism leveled at Emirates by rivals
is that it benefits from indirect government
subsidies in the form of cheaper fuel, very low
landing fees and cheap aircraft financing. The
fact is that Emirates pays market rate for fuel
and that only around 20% of its fleet is financed
through export credit agencies such as the US
Export-Import Bank. It is true that landing fees
are low at Dubai compared to other hubs but the
legacy carriers in Europe also enjoy a significant
advantage having inherited around half the
valuable slots at their respective hub airports.
The main cost advantage of Emirates comes from
higher employee productivity.” Deutsche Bank

“An overview of the audited financial accounts
contains no material surprises once one gets
used to seeing consistent profits at an airline…
Emirates’ key competitive advantage is its relative
youth (the fleet and the company), the location
and efficiency of the Dubai hub, and strong
management.” UBS

We cannot find anything in Emirates’ accounts
which indicates that the business is subsidised
directly or indirectly or given any undue
preferences”…“We are encouraged by the high
level of disclosure that Emirates offers, even as an
unlisted company.” JP Morgan

“Gulf carriers remain a material strategic
challenge to the European legacy industry. But
we do not see their growth creating an inevitable
structural crisis in the industry. We would expect
European carriers to continue to lobby against
the advantages of the Gulf carriers…The most
successful strategy, however, in our view, will be
to focus their development on routes where they
have structural geographic advantage over Gulf
carriers, rather than chasing those markets where
Dubai’s location and Emirates’ strong network
give it a major advantage.” RBS
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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EPA001
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
Some very heavy weights in the financial world have a different view.

And those views are telling a lot. So it is to the US3 to back up their claims with evidence. So far I have not seen that.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
Some very heavy weights in the financial world have a different view.

Are these statements by these heavy weights were made after reviewing US3 dossier? These sound like general statements every aviation/financial analyst made about ME3.
All posts are just opinions.
 
bobdino
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 6):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
quit playing a victim & get better at what you do

I didn't agree with everything you wrote but I thought the above was a nice, concise statement of what the US3 need to do. They are average at best and frankly they don't seem to aspire to be anything better.

Seconded.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 8):
What court action can EK possibly take except libel? And good luck on that.

It'd have to be libel. I'm not familiar with the standard of proof and/or harm that must be demonstrated.

But I do think it's totally fair for EK to be demanding the public release of the report. No-one disinterested can judge whether it's sober and factual or full of smears and libel until it can be read. If the US3 were that confident in their position, you'd imagine the report would have been emailed to every aviation journalist in the continental US.
 
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zeke
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 17):
Are these statements by these heavy weights were made after reviewing US3 dossier?

Of course not, they come from looking at EK accounts directly, and actually providing commercial finance to EK which people claimed is a subsidy.

Where is this so called "dossier" that you claim to have inside knowledge of ?
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
only around 20% of its fleet is financed through export credit agencies such as the US Export-Import Bank.

How much is the same ration for the US or European carrier? As neither US carrier can apply for Exim nor European for KfW or similar backing, this could be a substaintial advantage for the ME3 as it keeps financing = fixed costs down on behalf of the tax payer.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Where is this so called "dossier" that you claim to have inside knowledge of ?

I never claimed any knowledge of its contents. Its public knowledge that the dossier exists.

Why would any one make their evidence public, before authorities and US law makers get a chance to review?

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
they come from looking at EK accounts directly, and actually providing commercial finance to EK which people claimed is a subsidy.

Why would they be worried about subsidies when they have four layers of protection for their finance.

1) Aircraft as collateral
2) Insurance
3) EXIM Loan Guarantee
4) Sovereign Counter Guarantee

You don't need to be a hot shot financial analyst to sign off on EK loans.

[Edited 2015-02-26 06:14:55]
All posts are just opinions.
 
bjorn14
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:06 pm

One of area you have to prove in a libel case is that you were materially affected by that libel. Which Tim Clark may or not be able to prove if EK is awash in cash.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
jetwet1
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:06 pm

They could sue, try finding a jury in the US that would find one of the US 3 guilty of slander to a ME 3 airline, that could actually be amusing to watch. If the trial gets moved to the south the ME 3 stands no chance.

ME3 "Here is the written evidence"
US3 "Yep"
ME3 "Here is the video evidence"
US3 "Yep"

ME3 "Is this slander"
US3 "Yep"

ME3 "We rest"
US3 "Islam, Al-Qaeda, Muslim"

Jury " NOT GUILTY!"

Anyways, all of them will keep releasing press releases, nothing will come from this except a little bit of name recognition.
 
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par13del
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
Of course our US carriers don't want to cede the lions share of International traffic

Which international traffic are you talking about, US originated?
Most international traffic originating outside of the US are not using US carriers if they have choices, the Caribbean / Central America is special as US LCC's have a/c with range to provide service, but elsewhere, US carriers have more competition and in most cases they are not the leading carrier by pax numbers.

The US used to be a connection point for Central and South America but 9/11 security changed all that, other than this region, the US by its geography is not an ideal connection point, so the threat posed by the ME3 is what, allow lower fares for US immigrants and residents to travel home for visits?

I am more inclined to believe that this is a proxy fight by the US carriers for their alliances or other interest who want to keep the ME3 down, the threat posed to the US carriers is minimal, most ME3 traffic into the US is connecting via the Middle East, the alliance partners provided the same via Europe for many years, have they lost business, yes, but no one is telling them to step up their game, so why are they loosing traffic?
 
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enilria
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
Agree, but the US3 are afraid of what EK can do on US-Europe flights, like the JFK-MXP route.

First, I'm not sure I agree. There has been no mention of that in this debate, although Delta has been in court over that separately.

Second, that is really an issue for Italy to decide, not the USA-UAE bilateral. That authority is not issued under the USA-UAE bilateral. It simply doesn't prevent it.

Here's a scenario...
If you are the President of a Country in Europe; for example, lets say it's Switzerland and your national airline is bought by AF/KL. AF/KL essentially shuts it down except a few short-haul routes, so that they can force passengers through their existing hubs. Switzerland allows Emirates to have flag carrier authority from Switzerland because they no longer have a national airline. DL/AF/KL doesn't like it.

Are you really on the side of DL/AF/KL in that situation because that's the way things are headed? Worldwide consolidation is what is going to force that. Ownership of your flag carrier may be sacrificed, but this allows you to salvage some service for your own economy. Ironically, the only other scenario is to subsidize your own money losing flag carrier to try to compete with DL/AF/KL which is impossible.
 
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scbriml
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:25 pm

Unsurprisingly, Boeing is on the side of the ME3.

http://world.einnews.com/article/251976407/N5jqNppDCjgtCw52
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
slinky09
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:37 pm

Pity is, even if there was a libel suit, and the US3 lost, many here would repeat the same 'rumours' ad infinitum.
 
hohd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
Good news if you are Delta, though. If they lose a multi-billion dollar judgement they can just file Ch11 again, never pay the claim, and drop another few billion in pension debt on the U.S. taxpayer in the process.

On another note, who else thinks that the senior management (top 8-12 execs) of a large company that uses Ch11 should be barred from working there in the future as some sort of punishment for steering the company into Ch11 in the first place?

Good comment. This particular generous legislation equivalent does not exist in most countries. Where else can a company shed most of its debts, cancel union contracts, dump their pension payments on the tax payers, yet continue to operate as if nothing has happened. Some airlines have done this twice.

In the future, any Chap 11 bankruptcy proceedings should include full payment to all creditors (in cash, unless the creditor accepts stock) with interest once the company comes back from bankruptcy. No more dumping the pension plans.

This is the biggest subsidy DL, AA and UA received.
 
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zeke
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 20):
How much is the same ration for the US or European carrier? As neither US carrier can apply for Exim nor European for KfW or similar backing, this could be a substaintial advantage for the ME3 as it keeps financing = fixed costs down on behalf of the tax payer.

I dont know, however that was a topic for the WTO battle between the EU and the US, I remember reading some charts on that years ago when it was before the WTO. I do not see a reason why any US carrier could not apply for European export financing, many US leasing companies do receive export financing from both sides of the pond.

Delta does receive Brazilian and Canadian export financing on regional jets.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 21):
I never claimed any knowledge of its contents. Its public knowledge that the dossier exists.

So how do you know they are "AUDIT4 certified financial documents" ?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 21):
Why would any one make their evidence public, before authorities and US law makers get a chance to review?

I agree, why is DL making the statements in the press ? I made this observation above ...

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
I think the US3 have every right to collate and present information to the DOT, I do not think however that should be made public in an adverse way beforehand.
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 21):
Why would they be worried about subsidies when they have four layers of protection for their finance.

1) Aircraft as collateral
2) Insurance
3) EXIM Loan Guarantee
4) Sovereign Counter Guarantee

You don't need to be a hot shot financial analyst to sign off on EK loans.

The majority of the EK fleet is not financed, it is leased, and they lease them for around 12 years then they are out. In order to obtain EX-IM finance, audited accounts for the 3 previous years needs to be provided to the US Government, i.e. the US Government has already signed off on these deals.

If DL feels it is being held back in the US, they are free to setup a carrier in the UAE, receive the same landing fees, same open skies agreements, and same access to EX-IM finance (if their books are good enough).

A commercial advantage is not a subsidy, and the ME3 all have very young fleets, that is a significant commercial advantage, it comes at a cost, lease companies charge more so your cash flow is reduced. DL on the other hand own a lot of their aircraft, their 747 fleet is on average is 22.2 years, the A320 fleet 19.9 years. 757 fleet 19.1 years, 767 fleet 18.7 years.

I was reading again today the Qantas submission to the Australian Government for the EK/QF joint venture, in that document QF stated that the cost of running an A380 is less than a 744. With the lower cost, and more seats, the yield per seat is well to the commercial advantage of EK.

DL if they want to compete can go and buy A380s as well, and get EU export financing, or they can pull the anti-Muslim card and get the US government to protect the back yard.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
Unsurprisingly, Boeing is on the side of the ME3.

http://world.einnews.com/article/251...tCw52

Richard Anderson made no friends last year when he testified U.S. House Financial Services Committee to lobby against Boeing products getting EX-IM finance.

Quoting hohd (Reply 31):
No more dumping the pension plans.

I was really saddened by this, some of their employees had 20+ years in the job, and the airline grabs their pension money, and they used that cash for capital expenditure to purchase more aircraft. What was the financing rate they paid on that money ?
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
phillyramp270
Posts: 312
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 31):

There's still the argument of "if it wasn't for the ME3" bullying they way into the market share. We wouldn't have to file chap. 11
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
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EPA001
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
Unsurprisingly, Boeing is on the side of the ME3.

Well, one could argue that Boeing (and Fedex among the other parties names in the article) are protecting their assets. On the other hand I think that the claims being made by the US3 are not really that substantiated. And that position seems to be supported by Boeing, Fedex, etc, etc.

Quoting zeke (Reply 33):
Richard Anderson made no friends last year when he testified U.S. House Financial Services Committee to lobby against Boeing products getting EX-IM finance.

He is turning himself into a less smarter version of Akbar Al Baker. He can learn a lot from him........  

[Edited 2015-02-26 07:23:29]
 
dubaiamman243
Topic Author
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:22 pm

I feel that DL is lost, they don't know what do they want. Every time they come out by something new.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:28 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 4):
So we have the some shots aimed at Boeing and the impact this could have on them from the quotes in the article,

Quote: "We have invested heavily in the U.S. aerospace industry and a lot of what we have done with regard to market access has allowed us to go and place these orders, for which we have contracts in place," Clark said. "I don't want to be seen as threatening or intimidatory but I am hoping that the U.S. government thinks about all of this." - See more at: http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/emi....dpuf

I don't know who advised him to make this threat... but this is exactly the wrong tact to take. He should know better. I assume this is an emotional response... and he will find the wisdom to rephrase and walk this comment back. Childish, unhelpful and self destructive.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
The main cost advantage of Emirates comes from
higher employee productivity.” Deutsche Bank

One of the advantages Emirates has that nobody talks much about is the ability to structure employee compensation so that everything they pay to the employee stays with the employee. Employees in the UAE do not have have to pay taxes or contribute to a state pension scheme. As a result, their take home pay is higher, and this absolves Emirates from having to pay more than they need to in salaries. As Dubai is its sole hub, it is also possible for Emirates to provide housing for its crew, and this makes the offered salaries even more attractive since housing is included. These conditions are going to be particularly attractive to those living in countries where average wages are lower than in the US and Western Europe, and EK is able to obtain visas for those employees. EK trips, from what I have read, are also more demanding than those assigned US carriers. The US3, on the other hand, have many more constraints. Their employees pay taxes, FICA, etc. and also must contribute to their 401k. That makes their take home pay lower, so the US carriers must pay more to their employees. The US3 also can only employ legal residents and citizens of the US. Ultimately, the ME3 do have a productivity advantage, but this likely comes from a lot of HR efficiencies not available to US and European carriers.
 
surfdog75
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:46 pm

A lawsuit would be great as it would finally force transparency from the middle east carriers. A publically run company who buys their own airplanes, employs thousands of local workers, pays great wages, and has work rules that allow for a good quality of life should not have to roll over for a state sponsored entity who benefits far, far more from an extremely lopsided open skies agreement.
 
PanAm1971
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 40):
A lawsuit would be great as it would finally force transparency from the middle east carriers.

Nope. They may operate to the US... but are not literally US citizens. They cannot forced to do anything. There is always a process of negotiations... that is part carrot and part stick. It isn't just stick and an iron hand.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 270
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
One of the advantages Emirates has that nobody talks much about is the ability to structure employee compensation so that everything they pay to the employee stays with the employee.

It'll be interesting to see if the Middle East carriers can continue to staff cockpit crews as the US airlines continue to hire as fast as they can.
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
Ultimately, the ME3 do have a productivity advantage, but this likely comes from a lot of HR efficiencies not available to US and European carriers.

The US faces this issue in many trade areas-such as with all things made in China. It is not a reason unto itself not to abide by ratified trade agreements.
 
surfdog75
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 42):
Nope. They may operate to the US... but are not literally US citizens. They cannot forced to do anything. There is always a process of negotiations... that is part carrot and part stick. It isn't just stick and an iron hand.

Well any lawsuit they might file would have to be in US courts and if they don't open the books there's no chance of a successful suit.
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 45):
Well any lawsuit they might file would have to be in US courts and if they don't open the books there's no chance of a successful suit.

"No chance" Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on what tack they decide to take in any potential lawsuit.
 
ripcordd
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:09 pm

The argument that US Airlines are making all this profit and not lowering fares due to cheap oil is hogwash how many years did they lose billions to subsidize air travel sure they are making money now but they still have a long way to go to make up for all the years of loses and the next down turn is not far away. ME3 are only a big threat when they are given 5th rights to fly from Europe to US. I for one wont fly on one just due to their home countries lack of equal rights.
 
bjorn14
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 21):
Why would any one make their evidence public, before authorities and US law makers get a chance to review?

Ever hear of 'trial in the court of public opinion'? The US3 want people to get riled up and to get their Congresscritters to DO SOMETHING!
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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zeke
Posts: 15746
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
One of the advantages Emirates has that nobody talks much about is the ability to structure employee compensation so that everything they pay to the employee stays with the employee.

That is not true by a long way, I have a number of friends that moved there post 1989, some have retired already. It is a misconception if that is what you think.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
Employees in the UAE do not have have to pay taxes or contribute to a state pension scheme.

Friends of mine that are pilots there do have a pension scheme. I have friends of mine that work for two different Chinese carriers, and they pay no tax either.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
As Dubai is its sole hub, it is also possible for Emirates to provide housing for its crew, and this makes the offered salaries even more attractive since housing is included.

They now operate out of two airports.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
The US3, on the other hand, have many more constraints. Their employees pay taxes, FICA, etc. and also must contribute to their 401k. That makes their take home pay lower, so the US carriers must pay more to their employees.

That is no more than a competitive advantage, it is not a subsidy. The cost of doing business in the US is far cheaper than the UK, EU, Australia, Japan etc.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 39):
The US3 also can only employ legal residents and citizens of the US.

Not true, they employ lots that are not (e.g. ground staff, mechanics, ticketing, cabin crew). They could choose to employ more overseas, that is an internal business decision/enterprise agreement, not a subsidy.

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 40):

A lawsuit would be great as it would finally force transparency from the middle east carriers.

Dont think so, EK have their accounts on their website for anyone to review or challenge. What is not up for public review is this so called dossier.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 46):
Aha, you never watched the interview!!!

My question was how do YOU know the contents, and I assume from the response, you have no idea what it actually contains.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 46):
By taking initial delivery themselves and flipping thru SLB, they enjoy a

heavily discounted price and
loan guarantees from EXIM
loan guarantees from their own government
and also instantly pocket the profit thru flip

That is not how it works, you need to go away any look at how aircraft financing actually works. Sale and lease back transactions are normally done well in advance of delivery. EX-IM finance is available to the party that finances the deal, it does not need to be the airline at all.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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enilria
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 46):
Does it make RT a legitimate news agency???

RT covers things that are embarrassing to the American government. That does not mean it's all not true. Much of it is unpleasant to hear, but 90% of their coverage is "true" from a perspective that is supportive of Russia and anti-USA.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 46):
and stop watching CNN.

If you think CNN is not just as biased in their own way, you are crazy. CNN is a mouthpiece for the U.S. State Dept. They do not allow any reasonable debate of American wars or foreign policy on air. The policies are taken as gospel and the only debate is over how much fear to spread and the look of some starlet's dress on the red carpet. CNN exists to spread fear for the purpose of influencing change in many cases weakening the U.S. Constitution. Whether they do that because the govt tells them to or because it is good for their bottom line and ratings is irrelevant. FOX News, much maligned, does exactly the exact same thing from only a few degrees different perspective.

There is no unbiased source of news these days and anybody who uses one source exclusively is lazy and deluded. The more you open your mind to the stories on RT, the more you see things that are missing from CNN and FOX and that should worry you. They are all biased, but RT has one huge advantage over the others. They don't care at all about ratings. There's a reason 99% of cereal sold has sugar in it. It's not because it's healthy.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23447
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:32 pm

Anyone got any extra popcorn?      
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
FirstClass
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:04 am

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:54 pm

I wish the ME3 or even better Asian carriers such as TG, SQ and CX would be flying transcon !!!

This debate just summarises the sad state of affairs, no need to insult nations, religions etc with false insensitive generalisations. Some of the comments here are so full of hatred or simply so dumb they don't even warrant quoting.

Let's have a fact based debate. IF the ME3 received unfair subsidies, let's have a look at the facts and issue penalties. The SAME should apply to US airlines. If this is all about service and competitive threats, I am afraid some US airlines will have to raise their game.

In the interest of the US consumer, the US government should allow foreign airlines to carry passengers as is already the case on some intra EU routes BUT I am afraid this will never happen.
 
flyingcat
Posts: 531
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
Another waste of US taxpayer money

What does this have to do with taxpayer money, he is clearly threatening a lawsuit against a company.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22104
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RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:15 pm



I knew that this was going to get entertaining.

Quoting zeke (Reply 33):
Richard Anderson made no friends last year when he testified U.S. House Financial Services Committee to lobby against Boeing products getting EX-IM finance.

Yeah, I shouldn't be surprised that DL has ordered all Airbus widebodies.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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zeke
Posts: 15746
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: EK CEO Threatens Legal Action Against DL/AA/UA Subsidy Paper

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting FirstClass (Reply 56):
This debate just summarises the sad state of affairs, no need to insult nations, religions etc with false insensitive generalisations. Some of the comments here are so full of hatred or simply so dumb they don't even warrant quoting.

The source is not much better
http://edition.cnn.com/video/api/emb...elta-ceo-richard-anderson-intv.cnn

Quoting flyingcaT (Reply 57):
What does this have to do with taxpayer money, he is clearly threatening a lawsuit against a company.

The courts, congress, senators, and the DOT are all paid for by the tax payer.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
Yeah, I shouldn't be surprised that DL has ordered all Airbus widebodies.

They had a lot from NW. Lets see how much export financing they get ontop of the 1 billion they have for their regional aircraft.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949

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