nitepilot79
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UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:30 am

Looks like a few mishaps on the flight deck have landed the pilots of UA/CO a warning from the people upstairs.


(Reuters) - United Continental Holdings Inc warned its pilots last month to double down on safety procedures after one flight was in danger of crashing and another landed with fewer fuel reserves than regulations require, the airline confirmed Wednesday.

The Chicago-based carrier cited four recent "safety events and near-misses" in a Jan. 9 bulletin to pilots, including an emergency in which pilots had to perform a pull-up maneuver to avoid smashing into the ground, United spokesman Charlie Hobart confirmed.

"We are open and direct with our pilots, as we are with all of our employees," Hobart said. "The language that we used is strong, and that's because safety is our top priority. This enables us to recognize potential issues and adjust our actions to ensure the safety of customers."


http://news.yahoo.com/united-airline...-incidents-235902982--finance.html
 
rta
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:02 am

Not exactly something anyone (employee or customer) wants to hear, but it's good they're putting it out there. That's how you prevent something major from happening.
 
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kordcj
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:01 pm

I wonder what they were distracted with to not realize their plane was approaching terrain?
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:10 pm

I don't suppose it matters that UA like many carriers, leans on their pilots to carry a little fuel as is legal. I think it would be best to know the details though before drawing firm conclusions.
 
MeanGreen
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:18 pm

Any other information on the ground proximity event?
 
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ramprat74
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:23 pm

Our SFO flight that I work everyday had to return to the gate twice this week for more fuel. I have never seen this until we started CLP and the brain trust wants to nickel and dime the operation to squeeze out every cent they could make on a flight. I have heard nothing but bad things about the Scimitars from the pilot group. Spend a dollar to save a penny.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):

It depends on a lot of things. If they are tankering, they may have a higher fuel load than normal. According to the article, the fuel incident in question was because the pilot deviated from the planed route, ran low on fuel, then didn't divert when his reserves reached a critical point. I don't think you can point the finger at the dispatcher in those situations.
 
eaglepower83
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:44 pm

Geez.....I remember a documentary about AA several years ago where a pilot was planning his route.
He mentioned that they're always encouraged to use as little fuel as possible from management, but are still given full discretion in the name of safety to add extra fuel if they deem it necessary, without repercussions.
I would assume it's the same at UA???
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 6):
I have heard nothing but bad things about the Scimitars from the pilot group.

What's wrong, do they bump their head on them during walkarounds? Seriously, the airlines have the performance data for pre-Scimitar and if the performance isn't better with the Scimitar I'm sure we'd be hearing about it. A lot of very exacting performance flight testing is done before any of the various wing tip devices make it into service so I wonder what the pilots know that the experts don't.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:28 pm

This is probably a combination of UA Management looking to talk tough to the pilot group, whom doesn't appear very happy, and a normal, these are the current safety trends in the airline memo that every airline sends out from time to time. I know I got them whenever someone had a big operational issue in the system. Also, with AQP, these issues are actively monitored, tracked, and integrated into training scenarios. Add a journalist into the mix and you get the above article.

Wouldn't you rather have all the pilots learn of current trends within the company so that they can prevent things from getting worse?
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tozairport
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:44 pm

Many of you guys, especially Scott B, are missing the point here. United has not had a pilot caused fatality since 1978. No other major US airline can say that. That being said, issues with the merger, poor training provided by management, and distractions due to the ever changing operation have created issues. No major US carrier is immune from those very same issues right now. The letter was more of an acknowledgement by management that they need to do a better job addressing these issues rather than a letter deriding the pilots of United.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 6):
I have heard nothing but bad things about the Scimitars from the pilot group.

Even if they don't save much fuel, how would they affect the pilots?   
 
fxra
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 7):
It depends on a lot of things. If they are tankering, they may have a higher fuel load than normal. According to the article, the fuel incident in question was because the pilot deviated from the planed route, ran low on fuel, then didn't divert when his reserves reached a critical point. I don't think you can point the finger at the dispatcher in those situations.

AU Contraire! If the dispatcher failed to notice the captain deviated significantly form his route or did not contact the crew to say "Hey, WTF you doing over there? We don't have fuel for this!" he or she can be held partially responsible. Even if the captain took it on hie or her own authority to deviate from the plan. I've seen the FAA come down on a situation similar.

That being said, I'm interested to know what the "critical" fuel issue was.

i have a feeling these type of incidents are not unique to United. Most airlines don't publicize them, mine doesn't.
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tommy767
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:36 pm

I was on a LAX-SFO-ATL flight a few weeks ago in which the LAX-SFO aborted landing in SFO on the first round because (we found out later) that another aircraft was on approach and was supposedly going to "land on top of us". So for safety they requested a go around. Captain made it seem like SFO approach was unaware of this situation. Neverthless, I appreciated the safety call even though I barely made the connection to ATL and the flight ended up being nearly 1.5 hours.

WSJ article has an important piece regarding this matter: "United’s aviators agreed to a combined labor contract in late 2012, and a merged seniority list was adopted in 2013—big achievements in joining the two groups after the merger. But there are still cultural differences and friction between the two sides, some pilots contend.

In a recent update to pilots, Capt. Bob Sisk, chairman of the central air safety committee for United’s pilot union, listed a number of common threads linking serious incidents over the past two years, including poor teamwork. “Typically, the pilots didn’t brief together as a crew,” he said, while “the captain was generally a highly experienced pilot” paired with a co-pilot “who was a new hire, a returning furloughee, or was relatively new” on the aircraft type. Capt. Sisk also said a possible contributing factor in many of the incidents, “and an area of deep concern,” is that numerous pilots have reported significant discrepancies between how standard operating procedures “are presented in training and how they are implemented on the line.”

Again, comes back to management for adequate or rushed training to CO policy and lack of briefing and cultural differences between the crews. So much for Smisek's "Building the right culture" intro video.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting fxra (Reply 20):

There have been a few examples of this happening. If the pilot doesn't check with the dispatcher before accepting a new routing, you can't fault the dispatcher. Now if he checks with the dispatcher and he gives his ok, then it's on him. But the dispatcher can't babysit every decision that's made in the flight deck. There's a pretty good synopsis in the WSJ article.
 
catiii
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting thegreatchecko (Reply 10):
This is probably a combination of UA Management looking to talk tough to the pilot group, whom doesn't appear very happy,

That's hardly it. Safety isn't a labor issue. Pointing out that the FOQA data shows an alarming trend isn't about getting tough, it's about reminding crews to practice CRM.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 21):
“Typically, the pilots didn’t brief together as a crew,” he said, while “the captain was generally a highly experienced pilot” paired with a co-pilot “who was a new hire, a returning furloughee, or was relatively new” on the aircraft type.

That's kind of a weak excuse by the UA ALPA Air Safety Chairman isn't it? At some point in a pilot's career, everyone will be a "new hire" or "relatively new on an aircraft type". Surely they can't all be unsafe. Either they come out of the training center qualified or they don't.
 
b747400erf
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:10 pm

Is this a battle between ops giving out fuel figures the pilots disagree with?
 
United1
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:15 pm

As it's been published publicly thought you might like to see the full memo:

Date: January 9, 2015

SAFETY ALERT: Significant safety concerns

Recent events in our operation have dictated that we communicate with all of you immediately. Over the past few weeks, our airline has experienced what we would categorize as major safety events and near-misses.

In Flight Operations we have seen two events in close proximity to terrain (one resulting in a GPWS pull-up maneuver), an Undesired Aircraft State on departure and a low fuel state on arrival after a deviation from a Sabre Flight Plan routing.

The common thread with all of these is that they are preventable. We must ask ourselves, “Do we have our priorities in line every time we put on our uniforms and strap into the airplane?” While the airline industry always seems to be in a state of flux, the one constant for all of us is that we are professional aviators with the common goal of flying our passengers and crew from point A to point B SAFELY.

Another common thread to some of these events is a lack of attention to disciplined Crew Resource Management. Every time we enter the cockpit with the intention of performing our pilot duties, we evaluate risk. Every pilot must be willing to speak up if safety is in question. In the same vein, every pilot must also accept the input of their fellow crewmembers on the flight deck. In most cases, one of the pilots recognizes an unsafe situation. In some cases, a pilot’s input is ignored. This is unacceptable.

The recent CFIT accident in Birmingham involving another carrier underscores how quickly things can unravel. The approach and landing appeared normal to the pilots until right before impact. Let’s not for a moment think something like that could not happen at United.

We are currently seeing a lot of movement in the pilot group, such as retirements, seat movements and new hires, that -- while welcome -- introduces significant risk to the operation. While no one ever shows up to work with the goal of intentionally making a mistake, we are human and mistakes happen. What we can control is how we conduct ourselves on each and every flight. If you have ever used the term “Standard Brief” before departure, you have not complied with an SOP. If you have ever exceeded Stabilized Approach Criteria intentionally and not executed a go-around, you are not in compliance.

We know this is a brutally honest message and the tendency may be to rationalize why compliance is not occurring in some areas. Bottom line: United is at a critical juncture in its history and we as aviators must adhere to the policies and procedures outlined in the Flight Manuals, FOM, WOM and ALPA Code of Ethics. Reviewing, understanding, and complying with the guidance in company manuals is imperative to returning ourselves, our fellow crewmembers and passengers to their families safely. This is our top priority and greatest responsibility, and we appreciate in advance your continued commitment and cooperation.

Fly safe.

Howard Attarian, Sr. Vice President Flight Operations

Michael Quiello, Vice President Corporate Safety
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FlyHossD
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
Again, comes back to management for adequate or rushed training to CO policy and lack of briefing and cultural differences between the crews. So much for Smisek's "Building the right culture" intro video.

What "CO policy" is that? Trolling again, Tommy?

I have many pilot friends at L-UAL and L-CO and they all say that many changes have been made. That is, the current policies are neither old UA or old CO.

They also complain about the constant stream of memos and bulletins. However, this hardly seems to the be the cause of such basic errors. One thing is for certain, the cultures of the two pre-merger companies could have hardly been more different, but both carriers had very solid safety records.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 19):
What "CO policy" is that? Trolling again, Tommy?

One thing is for certain, the cultures of the two pre-merger companies could have hardly been more different, but both carriers had very solid safety records. [/quote]

Which is basically what I said. Culture issues with pilots should be influenced and corrected by management.

That, and also according to the article, inadequate lack of training from UA managment. The same people who brought you SHARES and forgot to train up agents in an efficient manner are now having an issue with the pilots. You can't just hand a pilot a brand new manual and say "Go!"
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):

Really? I didn't know flight ops brought us shares. Or should I assume the great and powerful wizard of CO strikes again.

The things you learn

[Edited 2015-02-27 12:04:19]
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 21):

More like the great and wonderful Smisek rushed training resources & failed to integrate work cultures and now they have to send out this urgent memo.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 22):

The pilots have been integrated for some time now.

Maybe my wizard of CO statement went over your head. Here it is spelled out:

It's silly and, quite frankly, illogical to think the some all powerful entity is responsible for all policy decisions large and small, in every department, in a company with 80,000 employees.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 23):

That's your opinion. Management sets the tone & culture for those 80,000 individuals, for which there is a disconnect in the cockpit. It's spelled out in the article, "cultural differences" between crews. So I suppose the c-suite is not reponsible for fixing that? Work hard, fly culturally divided?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
United1
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:03 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 24):
It's spelled out in the article, "cultural differences" between crews. So I suppose the c-suite is not reponsible for fixing that? Work hard, fly culturally divided?


No where in the memo was the phrase cultural differences used...not sure if that was editorial licence or what but you may want to consider tossing that part of your argument out as it's not supported by what UA actually told it pilots.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 25):

WSJ is reporting on it: http://www.wsj.com/articles/united-s...afety-warning-to-pilots-1424900742

From the head of UA's pilot union:

In response to the bulletin, union leaders for United’s Chicago-based pilots earlier this month said in a memo that the company’s concerns “are very valid.” But the union also complained of “shorter and less robust training,” degradation of respect for “captain’s authority,” “pilot pushing”—or pressuring them to skirt rules—and having oversight of flight operations by labor relations instead of a flight-operations executive.

In a recent update to pilots, Capt. Bob Sisk, chairman of the central air safety committee for United’s pilot union, listed a number of common threads linking serious incidents over the past two years, including poor teamwork. “Typically, the pilots didn’t brief together as a crew,” he said, while “the captain was generally a highly experienced pilot” paired with a co-pilot “who was a new hire, a returning furloughee, or was relatively new” on the aircraft type. Capt. Sisk also said a possible contributing factor in many of the incidents, “and an area of deep concern,” is that numerous pilots have reported significant discrepancies between how standard operating procedures “are presented in training and how they are implemented on the line.”


"Poor Teamwork" being a red flag. Also lack of briefings before the flight.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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CALTECH
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:15 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 19):

I have many pilot friends at L-UAL and L-CO and they all say that many changes have been made. That is, the current policies are neither old UA or old CO.

They also complain about the constant stream of memos and bulletins. However, this hardly seems to the be the cause of such basic errors. One thing is for certain, the cultures of the two pre-merger companies could have hardly been more different, but both carriers had very solid safety records.

The misinformed can stay that way, seems they think they know it all by reading a article.

Had a discussion with a sUAL pilot a while back, he said the biggest differences between the two pilot groups was that at sUAL, things were deferred on the aircraft a lot, so there wasn't much made about it when a pilot refused a aircraft due to MELs. At the sCAL side, items were fixed with fewer deferrals. So if a sCAL pilot refused a aircraft, it was out of the ordinary, while at sUAL it happened more frequently. Had a couple of sUAL Captains, one just became a United Captain, come and visit and talk about what could make things better while resolving MX issues. Was quite refreshing.

This has more to do with complacency, and to make sure SOP is followed.
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FlyHossD
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
Which is basically what I said. Culture issues with pilots should be influenced and corrected by management.

That, and also according to the article, inadequate lack of training from UA managment. The same people who brought you SHARES and forgot to train up agents in an efficient manner are now having an issue with the pilots. You can't just hand a pilot a brand new manual and say "Go!"

You didn't answer the question, so I'll repost it.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 19):
What "CO policy" is that? Trolling again, Tommy?

From the admittedly little I've heard about the relevant incidents, poor training had nothing to with them. They seem to have been very basic failures in airmanship. However, without real detail, we'll never know for certain and the airline isn't telling.

Are there problems? I have no doubt of that, but over the course of my career, there were always problems of one sort or another and that's true of every airline.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 27):

Off topic. The thread is about pilot issues, not MX issues. But you know, keep rolling on with how great sCAL was at just about everything and how sUAL was inferior.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 28):
You didn't answer the question, so I'll repost it.

You didn't ask a question.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 28):
Are there problems? I have no doubt of that, but over the course of my career, there were always problems of one sort or another and that's true of every airline.

Again, UA chief pilot remarked lack of debriefings and rushed slash poor training. That, within itself is a serious red flag. We are talking about near misses here. Far from the usual angst about how UA is giving the middle finger to IAH.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
catiii
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 29):

Funny. from everything I am hearing from my UA buddies it has nothing to do with a lack of training. The general feeling is that training is not at all the issue. In the almost CFIT incident it was an overconfident CA and a new FO.

Kudos to UA's for doing this. These trends are happening at practically every carrier (I for one know of two alarming incidents at two other major carriers), but only UA had the guts to get out in front of it and call it to their pilots' attention. It's EXACTLY what these SMS programs are for. As a competitor I am impressed.

It's ironic that posters on this board with no SMS or flight ops experience have made such damning conclusions about United. It's a shame some on this board choose to use this to wage their same, tired, pitiful UA v. CO war or push their same pathetic anti-UA or anti-CO agenda. Time to grow up and get over it...

[Edited 2015-02-28 19:28:02]

[Edited 2015-02-28 19:32:40]
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 22):
More like the great and wonderful Smisek rushed training resources & failed to integrate work cultures and now they have to send out this urgent memo.

How do you really know what's going on at United, especially within UAL's pilot group, without being one of the employees? Your ramblings about United are getting old, tired, and factually wrong. UAL is addressing a safety issue in a very direct and blunt way but that's not enough to satisfy you. Maybe Smisek should give you a call every day before he leaves work to give you a quick summary of how he's destroying the company so you can have something to write about here. I would recommend that you comment an actual airline you know something about. UAL is obviously not one of them.
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FlyHossD
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:49 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 29):
You didn't ask a question.
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 19):
What "CO policy" is that? Trolling again, Tommy?

Yes, Tommy, I did ask you a question - which you've avoided answering yet again - the question was and still is, what CO policy is that? I first posted that question in reply 19 in response to your statement:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
to CO policy

So, Tommy, what "CO policy" were you referring to in (your) reply 13?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 31):

  

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 32):

  

The midinformation being posted about United must come second hand from another airlines' Flight Attendant who must be in the 'know' about United.

Quoting catiii (Reply 30):
It's ironic that posters on this board with no SMS or flight ops experience have made such damning conclusions about United. It's a shame some on this board choose to use this to wage their same, tired, pitiful UA v. CO war or push their same pathetic anti-UA or anti-CO agenda. Time to grow up and get over it...

  

The immaturity is astounding and also these self proclaimed, so-called experts with their misinformation ruin these thread discussions.
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mcdu
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:26 pm

I waited for the smoke to clear and all the ridiculous posts to be removed by the moderator. UA is doing the right thing. This was a memo designed to make everyone aware and assure you are following SOP. Complacency has no place in the cockpit. We often had safety stand downs in the military. This is nothing more than UA addressing an issue early in the safety chain. Unlike some airlines UA does make safety paramount.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 34):
Unlike some airlines UA does make safety paramount.

. . . which demonstrates, does it not, that things happen even at carriers where safety is paramount and that, therefore, incidents cannot be reflective of a safety culture or lack thereof?
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OA412
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):
. . . which demonstrates, does it not, that things happen even at carriers where safety is paramount and that, therefore, incidents cannot be reflective of a safety culture or lack thereof?

Come now. You're trying to argue with facts rather than emotion. That's hardly fair.  
Quoting Mcdu (Reply 34):
Unlike some airlines UA does make safety paramount.

I must say, I've never worked at a company that didn't actively discourage badmouthing our competitors. I'd be shocked if UA didn't have a similar policy in place. Your constant insinuations that WN is running an unsafe operation are incredibly unprofessional, and seemingly based upon nothing other than a bizarre grudge you hold against that company.

If this memo had come down from WN top brass, you'd have been all over that thread knocking the airline for lapses in safety culture rather than characterizing it as a thoroughly positive step by management.

[Edited 2015-03-01 14:46:08]
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FlyHossD
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):
. . . which demonstrates, does it not, that things happen even at carriers where safety is paramount and that, therefore, incidents cannot be reflective of a safety culture or lack thereof?

Aside from UA or any other airline, I'd have to disagree with your post. That is, it's one thing to say that safety is first, but it's another thing to put and keep that in effect. As always, actions speak louder than words.

At one of my early flying jobs, I refused an airplane*. The Chief Pilot met me on the ramp that night and after I showed him the problem, he declined to fly it in that condition, too. The following morning, I was terminated by the Director of Operations (the Chief Pilot stayed mute in that meeting). But I can guarantee you that that operator always mouthed, "safety first."


*It was the third time in four or five weeks that I'd refused an airplane, but the only one that resulted in a cancellation.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 37):
That is, it's one thing to say that safety is first, but it's another thing to put and keep that in effect. As always, actions speak louder than words.

Concur. If we have CRM problems so bad that we are coming close to having CFIT accidents, which is apparently what's going on at UA, then I'd argue that "safety first" is not in effect.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
catiii
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:00 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):

Those same CFIT issues are going on at every other carrier. Glad to share them via IM but UA is the only carrier to engage their pilots on it publicly. Don't think for one second that these issues aren't happening at other, dare say EVERY other, carriers.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 653
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:27 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):
Seriously, the airlines have the performance data for pre-Scimitar and if the performance isn't better with the Scimitar I'm sure we'd be hearing about it. A lot of very exacting performance flight testing is done before any of the various wing tip devices make it into service so I wonder what the pilots know that the experts don't.

Pilots fly airplanes....accountants buy airplanes. That is why the 737 is still being sold, and why they have scimitar winglets but a 1960's era overhead panel.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
Even if they don't save much fuel, how would they affect the pilots?

Reduced cross-wind landing capability and slightly higher float on landing.

Quoting catiii (Reply 15):
hat's hardly it. Safety isn't a labor issue. Pointing out that the FOQA data shows an alarming trend isn't about getting tough, it's about reminding crews to practice CRM.

So if two pilots that absolutely hate each other because of perceived injustices during the SLI process and are sitting next together for 6 hours, everything will be okay once they read the bulletin about "practicing good CRM." Hey dan, I was just trying to plot a way to poison your crew meal since we crossed CRI on the climb out of JFK ... but thank god I read that new bulletin from the chief pilot...why don't you come over to my house for dinner once we get back to base!" yea right.
 
catiii
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting Passedv1 (Reply 40):

Yeah...right. Seniority list integration is an issue amongst the unions, not between the company and the unions. What does one thing (the company "getting tough" with pilots) have to do with the other? Good job confusing the issues.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14154
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 39):
Those same CFIT issues are going on at every other carrier.

I didn't argue otherwise. I'd make the same observation about any other carrier with the same problem.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
mcdu
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
I must say, I've never worked at a company that didn't actively discourage badmouthing our competitors. I'd be shocked if UA didn't have a similar policy in place. Your constant insinuations that WN is running an unsafe operation are incredibly unprofessional, and seemingly based upon nothing other than a bizarre grudge you hold against that company.

Where did I mention WN in my reply. I am more than happy to discuss WN in a thread regarding them. I believe UA does have a good safety culture and they are willing to tackle these issues head on versus paying lip service to safety. We have been very fortunate to have not had a crash outside of the terrorist attacks since UA232.

In 232 the CRM and efforts set the bar for the number of lives saved. One of the best showings of teamwork in a cockpit in a dire situation.

I much prefer the direct approach of telling pilots to be aware of these issues versus throwing dirt over a trend and a potential hull loss. I suppose each airline gets to decide how to treat safety trends. I like the UA method.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 43):
We have been very fortunate to have not had a crash outside of the terrorist attacks since UA232.

UA585 at COS.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
UA444
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 43):

UA has been a safety pioneer. Best flight crews in the sky.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14154
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 44):
UA585 at COS.

Yup. And if we look at the CO side of the house, we have 1883 (which could have been bad had the taxiway on which they landed been occupied) and 1404 in just the last decade.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3024
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 5):

actually, the load planners do not determine the fuel. that comes from the dispatch group.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):

and don't forget the amount of sUA emplloyees who simply refused to learn SHARES. The blame doesn't fall 100% on management.
 
UA444
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 47):

More like management not giving them tge proper training and taking away their 2001 Camry and putting them into a 1983 Chevy Cavalier.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: UA Continental Holdings Warning To Its Pilots

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 44):
UA585 at COS.

My apologies. You are correct.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
Yup. And if we look at the CO side of the house, we have 1883 (which could have been bad had the taxiway on which they landed been occupied) and 1404 in just the last decade.

You certainly can't choose your merger partner's safety record.... The association of Valujet and Southwest with the whole ugly mess of the airline being shutdown for safety violations would not be pleasant. If we include all of the old CO accidents than I would suppose that WN would now have a fatal crash on their record from the Valujet days?

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