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Steelhead
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Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:46 pm

In our local newspaper I found an interesting article about Kelowna Flightcraft and their future plans after the end of the PUROLATOR/Canada Post contract.

They mention plans to start regular cargo flight from YYZ to Europe and Asia.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/54...-forced-to-leave-hamilton-airport/

" To get itself back into level flight, the company will rebrand its cargo operation as KF Cargo and launch a new network to move freight to Europe through Toronto and Asia through Vancouver and Alaska.

While Stevens wouldn't talk about details of the new plan, a confidential internal memo obtained by The Spectator says said the company plans to fly cargo in two loops — from Toronto to Brussels, Belgium, four days a week, and from Toronto to Vancouver and Anchorage, Alaska, six days a week. Flights to Belgium are to start May 17. Flights to Alaska are to start in mid-July.

Those routes will be supported by two domestic routes — Toronto to Halifax twice a day, seven days a week, and Vancouver-Calgary twice a day five days a week."

Any ideas about that? (seems to be very risky)
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:46 pm

At least they are fighting to stay alive.

it will have to spend millions of dollars on aircraft modification, crew training and new facilities — before the first flight even takes off.

Does it mean they'll change their fleet or what modification should their current aircraft have to operate in this new environment? I'm not sure the DC-10 is the best choice to start such operations.
 
fly_yhm
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:16 pm

I think its a grasping at straws attempt to stay afloat. I don't expect them to have much success.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:21 pm

I have a feeling they will contract down to a much smaller operator. They do have a few contracts with other parties, they can build on those, but there will be many rotting 727 hulks in Kelowna and Hamilton.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:00 pm

This is only one part of the overall operation however. They are heavy in aircraft maintenance and I know they have supplied aircraft to IFL in Pontiac, Michigan as just one example.

Welcome to Kelowna Flightcraft Group of Companies

http://www.flightcraft.ca/

Kelowna Flightcraft Company Overview

http://www.flightcraft.ca/company_overview.asp
 
robsaw
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:13 pm

Hmm, former neighbour flew for KF (Purolator) out of YVR but regional flights on Convair. Wonder what he'll be doing?
 
KarlB737
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting robsaw (Reply 5):
Hmm, former neighbour flew for KF (Purolator) out of YVR but regional flights on Convair. Wonder what he'll be doing?

Applying for work at IFL to continue his Convair flying.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:34 pm

They will need to aquire new frames if they want to fly to Europe. If they acquired these frames earlier wouldn't they have been able to be competitive in bidding for the Canada post contract?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 7):
If they acquired these frames earlier wouldn't they have been able to be competitive in bidding for the Canada post contract?

KW has had the contract for quite many years, if I remember correctly, but I suspect the content of the article below has something to do with the award to CargoJet, not that the airline isn't competitive or didn't offer a good deal, but since Canada Post already place itself in a rather negative position, it would have been foolish to do it again.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...r-canada-post-deal/article4211619/
 
Steelhead
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:27 pm

If KF went for newer aircraft earlier they would have had a chance to compete against CargoJet. The 767/757 combination of CargoJet is much cheaper to operate (fuel, crews) compared with KF DC-10/727 combo. Now it's to late and flying these old aircraft on the mentioned services to Europe and Asia (means Alaska in this case) is not very promising. They only have 2 operational DC-10's left btw..
Hard to see how this can be successful.

I love KF's old jet's, but their time is over. Sad ti see them rotting away at YHM.
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:38 pm

I thought they had 4 DC10, (C-GKFA/B/D/T).

What happened to the other 2.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 10):
I thought they had 4 DC10, (C-GKFA/B/D/T).

What happened to the other 2.

This should give you some clues...

http://www.flickr.com/search/[email protected]&q=Kelowna%20DC-10
 
bw50505
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:23 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 10):

They have become parts donors for the remaining 2 active KF DC10.

bw50505
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:40 pm

At least C-GKFA/B provide a ready supply of spare parts.

Doubt if C-GKFD/T have much future as they are pretty elderly.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 10):

I thought they had 4 DC10, (C-GKFA/B/D/T).

What happened to the other 2.


Just landed in YHM this afternoon, saw 4 KF DC-10s parked. 1 on the flight line and the other 3 parked together behind the some hangers.
 
fly_yhm
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:02 am

a little off topic but im curious to see what the loads was like on your flight. I am assuming WS from YYC?
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 15):

a little off topic but im curious to see what the loads was like on your flight. I am assuming WS from YYC?

Loads are usually pretty good.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:12 am

This would have to interline with someone, no one flies to ANC as a final destination, they would have to have an agreement with the Asian airlines that fly there to pick up the Canada cargo. Not sure CX and KE would be happy about that who happen to be two of the biggest. The integrator s are all set. Unless FX for example would route Asia-Canada directly out of ANC rather than sending to MEM and backtracking to BC & AB like they currently do. Then again they have the Morningstar domestic operation, so that leaves UPS and DHL plus the smaller guys like TNT.

BRU seems and odd choice in Europe too, LGG, CGN, EMA, STN, CDG or AMS I could see.

Quoting steelhead (Reply 9):
I love KF's old jet's, but their time is over

I wonder if any will go over to Cargojet short term or if the new 757/767 capacity they have is enough. I doubt it considering the size of operation KW have.

Slightly off topic I guess, not sure how it works at other airports, but at YVR the Cargojet and KW ramps are quite separate, I guess Cargojet will take over both?

Quoting robsaw (Reply 5):
regional flights on Convair

Wonder what Cargojet have in mind to replace them? Relegating an old 727 seems too much metal, farming out to the Carson / Orca's of the world seems too little.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 3):
I have a feeling they will contract down to a much smaller operator.

Maybe they will expand the Flair operation into ACMI or leisure flying too. Some have wondered if they will be the initial aircraft source for start ups Jetlines and the nudists.

Quoting steelhead (Reply 9):
The 767/757 combination of CargoJet is much cheaper to operate (fuel, crews) compared with KF DC-10/727 combo.

You know what they said about the cost of operating the 727 vs owning it.... anyway agree on the -10 sadly, but YVR-ANC does not need a -10, the 727 should be OK for that. YHM-BRU would require something else, a 762 seems ideal. Maybe we can cross our fingers and they will go for a MD11.

Spotting will be less interesting at YVR by the end of this year... (hear its the last year of the 4N HS748 too).
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
Allee
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:13 am

KFA renewed the BC contract with Purolator for 5 years.

http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/ne...e4-87a0-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm
 
Steelhead
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:40 am

At this moment only C-GKFD/T are active/airworthy (the one's without PUROLATOR-titles). The other two DC-10's (C-GKFA/B) are parked engineless and have not flown for a long time. Hard to see one of them flying again.

CargoJet does not have any need for additional B-727's from KF - they have parked some of their own aircraft already:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead2010/15309266787/

The maintenance dept. of KF at YHM has been busy with outside work this year and is currently working on the 4th. Icelandair B-757 (+N17773 in the hangar). I hope they can get more of this work in the future.
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:16 pm

Iirc, Kelowna bought 2 additional DC10's in 2013;

These were N605GC and N606GC.

Neither of them has entered service.

We're they parted and scrapped in 2013, or are they still parked.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 20):

Iirc, Kelowna bought 2 additional DC10's in 2013;

These were N605GC and N606GC.

Neither of them has entered service.

We're they parted and scrapped in 2013, or are they still parked.

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YVRLTN
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting Allee (Reply 18):
KFA renewed the BC contract with Purolator for 5 years.

Cool!!! So 5 more years of the Convair and more importantly 35 jobs retained.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:43 am

SpaceshipDC10

Thanks for the update.
 
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cougar15
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:22 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
BRU seems and odd choice in Europe too, LGG, CGN, EMA, STN, CDG or AMS I could see.

into LGG would make more sence, much more freight there than at BRU and they could perhaps pick up the TNT flows aswell that currently get sent commercial
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:46 am

Looking at av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/query.aspx C-GKFD had 103,244 Hours and 22,441 Cycles as long ago as 29/4/2000. C-GKFT probably about the same.

Clearly the current figures are now somewhat higher.

Surely they can have little life left.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 20):
Neither of them has entered service.

I guess they never were intended to enter service, at least based on the figures below...

N605GC 112,188 Hrs/25,041 Cycles
N606GC 113,531 Hrs/24,937 Cycles

...that you provided in this previous thread: Kelowna DC10'S Ex Gemini (by bennett123 Jun 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
Steelhead
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:39 pm

I think there might be something already in place we don't know. All depends who your customers are and where they want to have you flying the cargo. Let's hope they really have a plan for this.
Crossing the pond in a DC-10 is possible, but in the long-term they need something else. Lot's of MD-11's in the desert (767 freighters not so much)
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:48 pm

afaik, the MD11's seem to be chopped quite quickly.

Also a lot, (e.g. KLM) were not converted to Cargo.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting steelhead (Reply 27):
Lot's of MD-11's in the desert (767 freighters not so much)

I have no knowledge of the kind of needs KF Cargo could have, but I think they should go for the 767.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 28):
Also a lot, (e.g. KLM) were not converted to Cargo.

From all the MD-11P & ER produced (136 frames), I believe 20 were never converted to cargo. Of the 11 Combi and CF, all were converted to cargo.
 
JRadier
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:29 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 28):
Also a lot, (e.g. KLM) were not converted to Cargo.

The KLM birds were not converted as there were no more conversion kits available.
 
A342
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 30):
The KLM birds were not converted as there were no more conversion kits available.

Really? I suppose it's rather due to the fact that nobody was interested in a freighter conversion of a MD-11F anymore when they were retired...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting steelhead (Reply 27):
I think there might be something already in place we don't know. All depends who your customers are and where they want to have you flying the cargo. Let's hope they really have a plan for this.
Crossing the pond in a DC-10 is possible, but in the long-term they need something else. Lot's of MD-11's in the desert (767 freighters not so much)

Who are their customers right now? Purolator and CPC.

It's a perfect example of why you don't build a business around 1 customer.

I'd be surprised if they have enough $$$$ floating around to lease or purchase any used modern aircraft.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 29):
I have no knowledge of the kind of needs KF Cargo could have, but I think they should go for the 767.

I doubt that KFA will have the money to do so - their sole revenue stream just dried up, and I cannot see them having enough capital to do anything.

Their operation is large for a cargo airline in Canada, but it isn't when compared to our neighbors around us - they have to compete in a VERY competitive market, and having the equipment they currently have makes them uncompetitive. A fleet of inefficient, maintenance heavy 727's can't compete against a fleet of "modern" 757's or 767's.

They should have bought the 757's that were coming up available over the last 10 years while they had the CPC/Puro contract. That would have made them more competitive if/when their largest customer jumped ship.

The DC-10's will keep them alive in the interim, but they will need some serious investment in their Sales team to garner new customers.

On a side note, Barry Lapointe (CEO / Owner of KFA) is actually on Purolator's board of directors and has been for a while... I wonder how long he stays?

I DO remember though, that KFA actually purchased one, perhaps more, 737's that eventually I think went to Sunwing if I'm not mistaken? Not sure if they were wet-leased or if they were purchases though - so perhaps they have a lot more money in the bank than I'm aware of.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
JRadier
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 31):
Really? I suppose it's rather due to the fact that nobody was interested in a freighter conversion of a MD-11F anymore when they were retired...

According to KLM Engineering & Maintenance Executive René de Groot conversion was not an option as no more freighter doors were available.

Source (in Dutch): http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...erlaatste-md-11-passagiersvluchten
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:10 pm

"The company admits its plan is risky — it will have to spend millions of dollars on aircraft modification, crew training and new facilities — before the first flight even takes off."

What kind of aircraft modification is he talking about?
 
Steelhead
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:23 pm

If they want to use the DC-10's to Europe this might be connected to upgrades to make the planes over-water capable
(there was no need for that in the current role).
Further they need a establish their own cargo infrastructure. At the moment this is all done by Purolator. I don't think,
that KF has anything in place (sales/handling etc.). They need to rent office warehouse space and staff at YYZ and the other stations for example.

Four more weeks flying for PUROLATOR - I'm enjoying the DC-10's every afternoon:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead2010/16505863317/

There are still some aircraft around with PUROLATOR-titles - they might have to remove these titles at the end of the contract. Meanwhile the first CargoJet 767-300ERF has PUROLATOR-titles applied.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting steelhead (Reply 35):
Meanwhile the first CargoJet 767-300ERF has PUROLATOR-titles applied.

Looking forward to your upcoming picture of it  
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:16 am

 
Allee
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
Slightly off topic I guess, not sure how it works at other airports, but at YVR the Cargojet and KW ramps are quite separate, I guess Cargojet will take over both?

DHL and Cargojet traded ramps at YVR. DHL on Apron 8 now. Cargojet moved to Apron 5 (behind Air Canada Cargo)
 
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yyz717
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting steelhead (Reply 9):
If KF went for newer aircraft earlier they would have had a chance to compete against CargoJet. The 767/757 combination of CargoJet is much cheaper to operate (fuel, crews) compared with KF DC-10/727 combo.
Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 32):
A fleet of inefficient, maintenance heavy 727's can't compete against a fleet of "modern" 757's or 767's.

They should have bought the 757's that were coming up available over the last 10 years while they had the CPC/Puro contract. That would have made them more competitive if/when their largest customer jumped ship.

Totally agree with these comments. KFC had this contract for years and yet did not invest in newer aircraft. KFC became the world's largest 727 operator in recent years by default by simply keeping its fleet of 13+/- in service while all other airlines largely replaced their 727 fleets. Had KFC added the 734F, 752F or 762F over the years, they might have been able re-bid successfully on this contract.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 32):
On a side note, Barry Lapointe (CEO / Owner of KFA) is actually on Purolator's board of directors and has been for a while... I wonder how long he stays?

The entire relationship was odd. KFC was the largest contracted service provider for Purolator with the KFC owner also being the primary minority shareholder at Purolator and a BOD member! This was a clear (or seemingly obvious) conflict of interest but it seems there was enough independence at Purolator to bid the air contract and select a carrier other than KFC. Clearly, the contract was KFC's to lose, so it makes you wonder why KFC did not win the contract.

So Lapointe is on a BOD that would have approved the contract award to Cargojet which would decimate his primary business KFC. It does indeed make you wonder how long Lapointe can or will stay on the Purolator BOD.

[Edited 2015-03-10 21:50:31]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
bennett123
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:33 am

IMO, the points made about the B727 apply to the entire fleet.

Hard to see a future for them, unless they have a big pot of money to cover the cost of re equipment.

I suspect that they have just kept putting off the issue.

Apart from the airframes themselves, there is the issue of spares.

Type rated pilots and ground crew are also required.

Where would you go to get type rated on a B727, CV580 or DC10?.

[Edited 2015-03-11 00:59:14]
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:40 pm

I wonder if KFC have enough time to refocus and start up a small standalone competition to CJT on trunk routes. Many feel the CJT service sucks and it will only get worse with no competition. If they can make a name for themselves for good customer service and reliability they could win some business.

This is a quote of YVRLTN from this thread: Changes To The Air Cargo Market In Canada (by briboy Feb 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

It appears they doing exactly what he was suggesting and the future will tell whether they'll succeed. BTW, does CJT service still sucks?
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Kelowna Flightcraft-future

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:58 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 40):

IMO, the points made about the B727 apply to the entire fleet.

I dont know how true it is not having access to the info myself, but I have heard that the 727 is actually cheaper to operate than the 757 as they are owned and long depreciated, parts are still plentiful since the mass retirements after 9/11 and again recently with FX parking all theirs and cheaper too, then the low usage means the higher fuel burn & extra crew member is cancelled out. Surprisingly dispatch reliability is also no worse than other aircraft - IIRC it was even better than the 757 at CJT and MPS but I may be mistaken.

Of course, they are mostly approaching 40 years old and can not carry on indefinitely... but for the short term...

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 41):
It appears they doing exactly what he was suggesting and the future will tell whether they'll succeed. BTW, does CJT service still sucks?

All I meant was that they are always full and they have a take it or leave it attitude in relation to helping you out because they know the only real option you have east/west is to get on the AC 77W YVR-YYZ which is also always full and that has its limits. Prices are also crazy high.

Suggests there is room for competition and I would love to see it happen, soldier on with the 727 until they can replace them. FX are parking A300's & 310's. I think they would be great birds for domestic transcons and they should have the legs for EU too if they go that route. It seems they are keeping the Convair operation for another 5 years so at least another revenue stream.

While the flight schedule seems pretty reliable, I have heard that the actual operating conditions at CJT are not great and its a pretty miserable deal for pilots & employees and the guy at the top is not the most straightforward of people... if anyone remembers the whole Regional experiment which was a particular gongshow IIRC. No idea how true that is, but to undercut KF with Lapointe involved they are going to have to pinch some pennies from somewhere - sure the new birds are more fuel efficient, but they have had a huge capital outlay over the past couple of years bringing it in.

Quoting Allee (Reply 38):
DHL and Cargojet traded ramps at YVR. DHL on Apron 8 now. Cargojet moved to Apron 5 (behind Air Canada Cargo)

Saw that on Monday. DHL also seems to be an Atlas Air bird now...

Semi related - how connected to KF is Flair? They must be feeling a real pinch now too.
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