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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 150):
Starting in spring, a trial will begin for 12 months for aircraft departing PER using runway 21 that turn west between 10pm-5am will be required to fly further south before turning west due to noise complaints.

Hmm, I sense restrictions / curfew are not far from materialising... The SYD curfew was introduced due to the 3rd runway and supposedly increased noise levels even though the airport was already constructed the residents won the battle.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 151):
The SYD curfew was introduced due to the 3rd runway

Err no it wasn't ! it was introduced with the deployment of jet powered aircraft. I'm do not remember the exact date but it was mid 1960s, at the latest, could have been as early as the late 1950s, either being decades before the 3rd runway.

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 148):
with the Allison engines being removed and freighted to the USA for overhaul and repairs before being refitted.

ALLISON engines !!!!. Has it been converted to turbo props?

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:49 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 152):
Err no it wasn't ! it was introduced with the deployment of jet powered aircraft.

Unless I read this wrong it states the curfew wasn't implemented until 1995...

In 1995 the Australian Parliament passed the Sydney Airport Curfew Act 1995, which limits the operating hours of the airport. This was done in an effort to curb complaints about aircraft noise. The curfew prevents aircraft from taking off or landing between the hours of 11pm and 6am.


Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Airport

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:54 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 151):
Hmm, I sense restrictions / curfew are not far from materialising... The SYD curfew was introduced due to the 3rd runway and supposedly increased noise levels even though the airport was already constructed the residents won the battle.


Funny you mention that as there was talk about curfew o radio this morning. Here's an article on a curfew

The operators of Perth Airport have warned that pressure for a night curfew would become overwhelming - resulting in higher ticket prices - if the State Government continued to approve new housing developments under the runway flight paths.

The airport raised its concerns with the WA Planning Commission last week at a full board meeting held to discuss the proposed rezoning of the former Rosehill Golf Course in South Guildford into 800 home sites for about 2000 residents.

The development would be significantly affected by noise from the airport's existing runways, as well as the third runway due to open by the end of the decade.

"Perth simply cannot afford to have restrictions imposed on the airport's operations because of poor planning outcomes," Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said.

"There is inconsistency in the State Government's position where, on the one hand, they are publicly calling for Perth Airport to expedite our privately funded investment to construct the third runway.

"On the other hand, they are considering allowing 800 homes to be constructed directly under the third runway flight path."

Sydney, Adelaide, Gold Coast and Geelong have curfews restricting aircraft movements between 11pm and 6am.

Perth Airport believes flights out of WA would become more expensive if a curfew was introduced because airlines would no longer be able to offer cheap "red eye" tickets to the east coast.

The flights are timed to land at airports such as Sydney just as night curfews are being lifted.

Mr Geatches said consumers would also have less choice because many international carriers preferred to fly out of Perth at night.

Transport Minister Dean Nalder recently backed the airport's expansion plans, describing the third runway as essential to the State's economic growth.

He refused to comment on the warning, saying only that the airport had raised its concerns with the WAPC and a recommendation would be made to the Planning Minister in due course.

Airservices Australia is responsible for monitoring airport noise levels and curfews can be imposed by the Federal Infrastructure Minister when the impact on residents is deemed excessive. Perth Airport is Australia's fourth busiest, dealing with about 150,000 aircraft movements a year. It is already under pressure from its existing neighbours to reduce noise.

Noise monitoring last year in Queens Road, South Guildford, showed that nearly 3500 flights a month generated noise levels above 80 decibels - significantly louder than a household vacuum cleaner.

National guidelines recommend homes should not be built near airports where plane noise regularly exceeds 70 decibels.

The planning commission is due to meet again this week.



I also remember watching a today tonight episode 2 and half years ago on a resident living in Canning Vale who is a serial complainer. This particular individual made more than 21000 complaints including 800 in one day and quite often he would complain 50 times on 1 particular flight. Article is from Oct 2012.

A Canning Vale man makes an average of 70 complaints a day in his crusade against noisy planes.

Figures from air traffic regulator Airservices Australia show Kevin McNamara made more than 21,000 complaints - 40 per cent of the total - about aircraft noise in Perth in the past four years.

Mr McNamara said he hoped bombarding Airservices through its website over arrivals and depatures at Perth Airport would lead it to change flight paths or noise insulate affected homes.

He said yesterday his record was 800 complaints in a day and he often complained 50 times about a single flight

"They wish I will go away because I am stuffing up their statistics but their statistics don't mean a damn thing," he said. "They respond but they try to fob you off. Nothing gets done."

Now retired, Mr McNamara made his first noise complaint in 2004 but said the problem was worse since flight paths were changed in late 2008.

"It keeps me awake at night," he said. "You can be having a barbecue and all of a sudden you have six planes in half an hour and you can't think."

Airservices said 344 people made 53,731 complaints about aircraft noise in Perth since November 2008, including Mr McNamara's 21,411.

In recent months he intensified his efforts. In the past year he made 9708 complaints and in August alone was responsible for 2156 - about 70 a day.

Anti-aircraft noise campaigners said the volume of complaints reflected frustration with Airservices for failing to take concerns seriously.

Aircraft Noise Action Group spokesman Hugh Smith said the skies around Perth Airport were an "aerial sewer" because of revamped flight paths and air traffic growth.

Airservices and the Noise Ombudsman had visited Mr McNamara but could not resolve the issues.

Perth airspace is congested because of safety factors at three nearby airports plus Pearce RAAF base, which cannot be traversed on weekdays.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:18 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 153):
Unless I read this wrong it states the curfew wasn't implemented until 1995...

Yeh it was introduced in 1995. I think gemuser's point is that the third runway wasn't the thing which triggered the legislation. The third runway resulted in additional traffic/movements, which created momentum (i.e. more protests) for the legislation to be introduced. Even if the third runway wasn't built, the issue of airport noise would've still been around and so the curfew was inevitable.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:32 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 153):
Unless I read this wrong it states the curfew wasn't implemented until 1995...

Sorry, WRONG!  

Quote:
In 1963, the 11pm to 6am curfew was introduced at Sydney Airport in response to the noise impact of early types of jet aircraft.

From:
http://www.sydneyairport.com.au/corp...34a66359424e1db62aded36b03dfa8.pdf

Another quote, same source:
The curfew was given statutory effect by the Sydney Airport Curfew Act 1995 and associated regulations.

So the curfew was introduced in 1963, I think, as a directive of the Director General of Civil Aviation. It was not given legislative effect until 32 years later.

I knew I wasn't that far off!!!

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:54 am

Interesting to read on Facebook (and confirmed by Qantas Website) that once a week, Qantaslink will operate the 717 in place of the QF 73H on SYD-OOL, starting late April. This will be on the evening service on Saturday. Maybe OOL-SYD not performing as well as hoped?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:08 am

Guys, I'm very sure that the curfew was in place before 1995 and the third runway... As a tweenie/teenager, i used to convince my poor longsuffering dad to drive me out to Sydney late at night to log the freight aircraft that were restricted to turboprop types because of the curfew. I think that special dispensation was given to some Ansett Air Freight 727 and 146 flights and IPEC DC-9s, but I seem to remember that they operated mainly out of Melbourne and Brisbane. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I know it was a rare thing to ever catch those jet freighters in daylight at Sydney way back when... Certainly the vast majority of my photos of these types were taken at airports other than Sydney.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 156):
Maybe OOL-SYD not performing as well as hoped?

The route has been going for, what, 3 years now hasn't it? If it was underperforming it would probably have been quietly pruned by now, and while not a runaway success I'm sure that it is profitable. This just sounds like sensible capacity discipline at the quietest time of the week.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:25 pm

Very fortunate today to go on an airside tour of Perth Airport.
Perth Airport has been undertaking some consultation with Local Governments (of which one I work for) in relation to height limitations and their new master plan and we asked if we could get a tour of the airport and they said yes
After a nice lunch we got signed in and off we went, first stop the domestic apron, was so in awe I forgot to take photos.
Next stop the FIFO ramps for Skippers and Network and then the fun began.
We pulled up at the northern end of Runway 21 to watch an Alliance F100 and an Etihad 330 land along with a Jetstar A320 and Qantas A330 depart.
The International apron was next, midday on a Monday was not as busy as I would have liked but hey here I was standing on the apron at gate 52 watching a Singapore Airlines B777 get prepared for departure.
The new VA peir is quite impressive from the outside and it is nice to see that they are going to use wheeled aerobridges not the silly static ones that they have at the ITB.
We continued our journey around the bottom of runway 03 we saw the progress on the extension of taxiway Charlie which should help reduce runway crossings and increase utilisation
Past the viewing platform which I have visited many times and it was nice to be on the other side of the fence we pulled up to watch a SQ B777 and realised a SQ B777 was also landing and as the works had closed a part of taxiway Charlie it turned of the runway towards us
Our tour wound up passing a number of 737 freighters.
For someone like me opportunities like this are a once in a life time dream (could have spent all day there), it is right up there with my visit to the control tower at PER
Now Iust need to work out how to load a few images

Razza74

[Edited 2015-03-09 07:30:14]
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 156):
Interesting to read on Facebook (and confirmed by Qantas Website) that once a week, Qantaslink will operate the 717 in place of the QF 73H on SYD-OOL, starting late April. This will be on the evening service on Saturday. Maybe OOL-SYD not performing as well as hoped?

Two reasons I can think of - lack of demand for Saturday night flights to OOL & CBR, and 717 crews being cheaper.

Once daylight savings ends in NSW, QF864 arrives at OOL at 1800. That's quite late for many leisure pax so they're unlikely to pay a premium for this service. At the same time, who wants to fly to CBR on a Saturday night? (or ever   )

So QF probably have some slack in the 717 fleet at that time, and can crew the flight at lower cost.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 158):
The route has been going for, what, 3 years now hasn't it? If it was underperforming it would probably have been quietly pruned by now, and while not a runaway success I'm sure that it is profitable. This just sounds like sensible capacity discipline at the quietest time of the week.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that SYD-OOL doesn't perform as well as SYD-BNE. While they are similar sector lengths, OOL is priced consistently lower than BNE outside of holiday periods. OOL's lower airport charges may make up for some of the difference, but if it was a star performer I think MEL-OOL would have reappeared.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting qf789 (Reply 153):
I also remember watching a today tonight episode 2 and half years ago on a resident living in Canning Vale who is a serial complainer. This particular individual made more than 21000 complaints including 800 in one day and quite often he would complain 50 times on 1 particular flight. Article is from Oct 2012.

Whilst such behaviour does not surprise me, I did not think humans could get that obsessive  

What really annoys me is people who buy a home in an area that has been under a flight path or has been subject to aircraft noise for decades and then complain. I mean - hello you idiot! Were you not aware that a major airport has been here for decades before you were even born? Some people...

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 156):
Interesting to read on Facebook (and confirmed by Qantas Website) that once a week, Qantaslink will operate the 717 in place of the QF 73H on SYD-OOL, starting late April. This will be on the evening service on Saturday. Maybe OOL-SYD not performing as well as hoped?

Great!

Now I have the chance to log a 717 on a route that I fly very often!

On my next trip from SYD to OOL later this year I was going to do something totally crazy and book SYD-SIN-OOL just to fly the Scoot 787-9 but now that flying a QF 717 on that route is possible... Hmmmm... Tough decisions... It's a hard life being an AvGeek  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:15 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 160):
Two reasons I can think of - lack of demand for Saturday night flights to OOL & CBR, and 717 crews being cheaper.

That makes a lot of sense. I haven't looked, to be honest, but I suspect there's a 717 SYD-CBR-SYD rotation on Saturday nights that switches to a Q400, given 1 of the 2 Q400s has just returned from WA into the SYD system (the other goes into the BNE system on its return).
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 161):
I mean - hello you idiot! Were you not aware that a major airport has been here for decades before you were even born? Some people...

And to make things even worse, we (whoever we is) spend a lot of time and money trying to placate these people, and others, noticing this, jump on board, and ultimately we finish up with noise restrictions etc etc. It's called "the domino theory". Proof. The residents surrounding Mascot.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting TN486 (Reply 163):
The residents surrounding Mascot.

Who comprise no less than 5 Federal Electorates, more than enough to swing an election! Which is why the curfew is not going anywhere, even though its original justification, turbo-jet engines & non stage 3 turbo fans, are long defunct!


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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 164):

Quoting TN486 (Reply 163):
The residents surrounding Mascot.

Who comprise no less than 5 Federal Electorates, more than enough to swing an election! Which is why the curfew is not going anywhere, even though its original justification, turbo-jet engines & non stage 3 turbo fans, are long defunct!


Gemuser

Say for example there was bi-partisan support for the removal of the curfew, how would these voters react? Completely hypothetical situation, I do not believe this would ever happen.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting a320fan (Reply 165):
Say for example there was bi-partisan support for the removal of the curfew, how would these voters react? Completely hypothetical situation, I do not believe this would ever happen.

You would see the 5 new Greens members holding the balance of power in the House of Reps!

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 162):
given 1 of the 2 Q400s has just returned from WA into the SYD system

Will there only be 1 Q400 in WA now? hardly seems worth it..
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 167):

No. LQK returned PER-ADL-SYD last Wednesday and LQJ will return PER-ADL-BNE later this month, ending WA's Q400 ops.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 168):

Interesting, so LEA, KGI and GET, are going to 717?

And VA are also removing the E190s from WA...spotting at PER wont be so interesing /
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 169):
Interesting, so LEA, KGI and GET, are going to 717?

And Network Aviation Fokker 100s.

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 169):
And VA are also removing the E190s from WA...

Hadn't heard that... when's that take effect?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:57 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 169):
And VA are also removing the E190s from WA...spotting at PER wont be so interesing /

Are they removing them from intrastate services and using the F100s instead or are they removing them completely including the ADL-PER services?
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:15 am

well the E190 international services are being transfered to A320.

With intrastate going to F100 737, apparently the 2 remaining 737-700 will be PER based.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting TN486 (Reply 163):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 161):
I mean - hello you idiot! Were you not aware that a major airport has been here for decades before you were even born? Some people...

And to make things even worse, we (whoever we is) spend a lot of time and money trying to placate these people, and others, noticing this, jump on board, and ultimately we finish up with noise restrictions etc etc. It's called "the domino theory". Proof. The residents surrounding Mascot.

Those residents in the areas around Mascot make more noise about aircraft noise than the actual aircraft make  
Quoting gemuser (Reply 166):
Quoting a320fan (Reply 165):
Say for example there was bi-partisan support for the removal of the curfew, how would these voters react? Completely hypothetical situation, I do not believe this would ever happen.

You would see the 5 new Greens members holding the balance of power in the House of Reps!

Gemuser

That might actually give Christine Milne & Sarah Hanson-Young a legit reason to wet themselves  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:47 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 151):
ALLISON engines !!!!. Has it been converted to turbo props?

Oops, sorry and thanks for that pick up Gemuser. They are I believe Wright Cyclone engines and not Allison's.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:49 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 173):
That might actually give Christine Milne & Sarah Hanson-Young a legit reason to wet themselves

Yes, but they are Senators, get rid of the Mascot curfew and the 5 new Greenes would be Reps and could determine who forms government, guess what the their first demand would be?

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 174):
hey are I believe Wright Cyclone engines and not Allison's.

Interesting, I didn't know we had any Cyclone DC-3s in Oz, most are P&W Wasps, was this a pre WWII aircraft?

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:00 pm

If/When Badgery's Creek gets built, the issue of the curfew at SYD will become less of an issue.

Although not surprisingly, the idea that Badgery's Creek may become a 24/7 airport has already caused some uproar for those living close to the proposed new airport. Plus there are environmental concerns as many of the flight movements will be directly over the Blue Mountains, so Badgery's Creek is no certainty yet !
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 181):
Although not surprisingly, the idea that Badgery's Creek may become a 24/7 airport has already caused some uproar for those living close to the proposed new airport. Plus there are environmental concerns as many of the flight movements will be directly over the Blue Mountains, so Badgery's Creek is no certainty yet !

Its funny when NIMBY's want to do anything to stop projects, then complain as there's no services and jobs in their areas.

I read a story a while ago where a group around Badgery's Creek were calling for the curfew to be lifted at KSA and the 2nd airport to be stopped and turned into parkland. Umm... yes, thats logical.. not!

The biggest issue with the 2nd airport is who will use it and will they be forced to move? Yes, QF and VA have come out in support of the project, but at the same time they are well aware that the real value is at KSA. Moving all JQ and TT ops will also not likely fit the plans of either group, given the need for connectivity on some flights.

International flights also need feed, so going out there without a significant incentive will be hard to see occurring.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 182):
With the refinery closing in Kurnell, how long until it becomes a preciously expensive seaside village where airport operations only spoil their peace and quiet?

I would imagine that it would take quite some time to remediate the site after Caltex's departure. I recall the Olympic site required a long clean up before it could be re-used.

Quoting allrite (Reply 182):
How is the process for Badgery's Airport proceeding? Last I heard they were still in negotiations with SAC over first rights and ownership. I wonder with Max Moore-Wilton going if there will be any changes in attitude.

According to the Department of Infrastructure "The Right of First Refusal consists of a number of phases, including a consultative phase and a contractual phase. These are expected to take between one and two years to complete."
We're still in the consultative phase - "The Australian Government has issued a Notice to Consult to the Sydney Airport Group and the first phase formally commenced on 30 September 2014.This consultative phase is expected to take nine months."

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 183):
The biggest issue with the 2nd airport is who will use it and will they be forced to move?

I wonder if the value they see is in the freeing up of space at Kingsford Smith? No doubt QF/VA/JQ/TT would have some flights to Badgery's Creek, the scale of the operation is questionable. It would also depend on who operates Badgery's - if SACL chooses not to run it, there could be a pricing incentive to move to Badgery's. However AVV also offered favourable pricing and it's down to a few SYD flights.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 183):
International flights also need feed, so going out there without a significant incentive will be hard to see occurring.

I could see foreign airlines using Badgery's where they are currently affected by the SYD curfew - SQ with a midnight departure, CX re-timing their late night departure, NZ starting a red-eye to AKL.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 184):
I wonder if the value they see is in the freeing up of space at Kingsford Smith? No doubt QF/VA/JQ/TT would have some flights to Badgery's Creek, the scale of the operation is questionable. It would also depend on who operates Badgery's - if SACL chooses not to run it, there could be a pricing incentive to move to Badgery's. However AVV also offered favourable pricing and it's down to a few SYD flights.

I think regardless of who runs the new airport, SACL or another party, there will be a drop in pricing. From SACL's point of view, if they're investing several billion in building a new airport, the only way they can generate a return is by stimulating new flights/demand. If SACL do not lower pricing, all you will see is a shift in some traffic from SYD to Badgery's Creek with some minor incremental growth in traffic. If it is another operator who operates the new airport, then you will absolutely see some very aggressive pricing and we may see some airlines switch airports (more likely to be international airlines who rely less on domestic transfers).
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 184):
I could see foreign airlines using Badgery's where they are currently affected by the SYD curfew - SQ with a midnight departure, CX re-timing their late night departure, NZ starting a red-eye to AKL.

I must say, I'm not too sure that SQ or CX will look at duplicating operations at 2 airports in Sydney for the sake of a daily flight. Yes, CX and SQ have done this in NYC (JFK/EWR), although the latter airline no longer flies to EWR, but it does increase operational costs and inefficiencies for airline to do this at a small scale.

The airline that will likely chase the Badgery's Creek option with be QR if it can get the bi-lateral rights to increase Australian flights, as 24/7 ops are part of its requirements for Sydney flights.

Scoot or Air Asia X would be more likely to move though if the deal was good, with the former giving SQ the opportunity to differentiate its product with its LCC operator, along with TT likely able to provide some feed to the 2nd airport as part of the advantages of doing this.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:30 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 181):

I'm with you on this but, given codesharing, interlining, alliances, etc., a lot of what SQ, CX and the like do will depend on what QF and VA do with much of their domestic services.
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 181):
I must say, I'm not too sure that SQ or CX will look at duplicating operations at 2 airports in Sydney for the sake of a daily flight. Yes, CX and SQ have done this in NYC (JFK/EWR), although the latter airline no longer flies to EWR, but it does increase operational costs and inefficiencies for airline to do this at a small scale.

That all depends on the cost difference between SYD & Badgery's. If the airport charges are attractive enough they can cancel out the increased cost of operating from two ports.

CX is using Menzies for ground handling at SYD - surely Menzies would also operate from Badgery's too? As for SQ, if VA has enough of an operation at Badgery's then SQ could piggyback of the infrastructure VA is using there.

It's not that uncommon to see airlines split between two ports in one city - several airlines fly to both HND & NRT. QR flies DOH-IST & DOH-SAW. Even U2 flies LGW-MXP & LGW-LIN.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:15 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 175):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 173):
That might actually give Christine Milne & Sarah Hanson-Young a legit reason to wet themselves

Yes, but they are Senators,

Yes, they are Senators, but they are still the Greens that spend the most time nagging to the cameras  
Quoting gemuser (Reply 175):
get rid of the Mascot curfew and the 5 new Greenes would be Reps and could determine who forms government, guess what the their first demand would be?

To stop airlines from using paper tickets / boarding passes in order to save a few more trees???    
Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 178):
Its funny when NIMBY's want to do anything to stop projects, then complain as there's no services and jobs in their areas.

  

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 179):
I could see foreign airlines using Badgery's where they are currently affected by the SYD curfew - SQ with a midnight departure, CX re-timing their late night departure, NZ starting a red-eye to AKL.

I wouldn't put it past EK as well... but NOT with an A380...   
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:30 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 182):
I'm with you on this but, given codesharing, interlining, alliances, etc., a lot of what SQ, CX and the like do will depend on what QF and VA do with much of their domestic services.

I think this is key, would QF and VA divert some of their domestic services to Badgery's Creek? Anyone coming off a international flight and wanting to connect to a domestic service (and vice versa) is not going to want to make the commute from Badgery's Creek to SYD (and vice versa)   

A cab fare is going to be ~$100 and if there was a scheduled bus service, it would take probably 45 mins (even with WestConnex?).

I wonder if we will end up with a similar situation as Tokyo (with Haneda/Narita). From a yield perspective, SYD is still to going to favour the corporate market notwithstanding that Western Sydney does have a established and growing corporate/business presence.
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:59 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 185):
I think this is key, would QF and VA divert some of their domestic services to Badgery's Creek? Anyone coming off a international flight and wanting to connect to a domestic service (and vice versa) is not going to want to make the commute from Badgery's Creek to SYD (and vice versa)

I've always assumed that most of the early service from Badgerys will be high leisure/VFR routes, and mostly LCC - Jetstar and Tiger.

Perhaps Qantas and Virgin will lay on some service, again with a concentration on leisure/VFR traffic, and Air NZ may be in that mix as well.

This doesn't preclude business travellers, for some more local to the area it may be more attractive, but the airlines will get a sense of that fairly quickly.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:55 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 185):

WestConnex won't be that relevant as the problem would still be the M5. If you could do the journey in less than an hour you deserve some kind of award.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:06 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 187):
WestConnex won't be that relevant as the problem would still be the M5. If you could do the journey in less than an hour you deserve some kind of award.

Yes your right, its the M5. Badgery's Creek is more South West than West. But you could actually do the drive in less than an hour, from the airport to Campbelltown (a similar distance) is about 45 mins (with favourable conditions). The biggest issue with the M5 is the M5 East Tunnel, that is the biggest potential bottleneck.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:15 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 176):

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 174):
hey are I believe Wright Cyclone engines and not Allison's.

Interesting, I didn't know we had any Cyclone DC-3s in Oz, most are P&W Wasps, was this a pre WWII aircraft?

Gemuser

I think the TAA/Australian Airlines DC-3 has P&W engines is my understanding and VH-ABR has Wrights as far as I am aware - see pic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tion_Group%29_%288418433054%29.jpg

Cheers BZF
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
 
81819
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:38 am

From what I can remember Badgery's won't be operating until the 2020's.

The airport will need a fair amount of road and rail infrastructure, so I'd suggest it could be the 2030's before the airport become a real viable alternative for the legacy carriers. That's a good fifteen years away!

I don't have any figures, but I would expect airline traffic to double in that time. With airlines like JQ, TT, some of the regionals and the freight carriers transferring their operations to Badgery's, Sydney Airport could actually have enough capacity to handle all of the growth for the premium carriers.

This could actually represent an opportunity for Sydney Airport rather than a threat.

For Qantas who uses Sydney as their main base, this again could free up terminal and hardstand space for their main operations. If we consider QF's Sydney maintenance facilities being demolished for new QF terminal space, QF might actually have more potential for growth in their home market than other competing airlines.

I don't see many losers. If the government can get the proper road and rail infrastructure in place freight, high end manufacturing and food processing could actually have a real opportunity for growth. JQ could be carrying more freight than QF if Badgery's is used as a major freight hub.

It will be interesting to see how this evolves.
 
pugsley
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:13 am

Doing a Wikipedia search on Melbourne Airport and looking at the list of who flies out of Melbourne for some inspiration on a quick weekend get away, I came across this info that SriLankan might be seen in Melbourne from 02NOV2015 and I didn't remember reading it on this forum. Sounds like a nice way to get to the maldives.... Wishful thinking! Here's hoping it comes true!

Quote:
Colombo – Melbourne UL proposes 4 weekly A330-300 service from 02NOV15. This filing is only listed in the OAG, therefore reservation is not available
UL601 CMB0100 – 1630MEL 333 x237
UL602 MEL1800 – 2300CMB 333 x237

UL last operated service to Australia in August 2001, with 3 weekly Colombo – Sydney service
UL678 CMB0500 – 1930SYD 340 136
UL679 SYD2050 – 0350+1CMB 340 136
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bunumuring
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 188):
Yes your right, its the M5. Badgery's Creek is more South West than West. But you could actually do the drive in less than an hour, from the airport to Campbelltown (a similar distance) is about 45 mins (with favourable conditions). The biggest issue with the M5 is the M5 East Tunnel, that is the biggest potential bottleneck.

I grew up very very close to Badgerys Creek and lived through the highs and lows of it. My parents still live so close you can practically see the airport site from their house. I have ALWAYS been an avid supporter of the airport and have had many many arguments with neighbors, friends and relatives about the proposed airport. My parents too, were/are avid supporters of the airport.

I can assure you that in my experience the opposition to the airport in the Liverpool / Fairfield / Campbelltown area has always been exaggerated. Jobs jobs jobs has and always will be the mantra in southwest Sydney and the locals have always appreciated how an airport would've provided a huge and ongoing employment stimulus.

I am very much in favour of developing a full scale international airport at Badgerys Creek, having always believed the saying 'build it and they will use it'. Badgerys Creek should not be another underused, overpromised Avalon. The population of western Sydney and the demand for travel in and out of Sydney would ensure the success of a well managed, independent second airport. I remember how the M5 when it was opened was considered a white elephant for years and now look at it...

Speaking of the M5, it is the elephant in the room when discussing Badgerys Creek. It simply MUST be duplicated along it's entire route with a spur constructed ASAP to the Badgerys Creek site to allow efficient transport of construction workers and materials/equipment to the site. The new rail line to Leppington needs to be extended right through to the main western line and decent services introduced.

And please, a plea again, can the various governments at all levels not let it be called 'Badgerys Creek'... I am in favor of something honoring the ANZACs in this centenary year or an indigenous name, such as Sydney Eora International Airport or something. Even 'Charles Ulm' to 'balance' Kingsford Smith is acceptable to me, lol.

Thanks for reading my soapbox opinion piece...

Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
Airvan00
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 187):

WestConnex won't be that relevant as the problem would still be the M5. If you could do the journey in less than an hour you deserve some kind of award.
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 188):
Yes your right, its the M5. Badgery's Creek is more South West than West. But you could actually do the drive in less than an hour, from the airport to Campbelltown (a similar distance) is about 45 mins (with favourable conditions). The biggest issue with the M5 is the M5 East Tunnel, that is the biggest potential bottleneck.

Let's get the terminology right guys, WestConnex is the duplication of the M5 tunnels as well as the works on the M4.
The upgrade of the M5 west of King George's road has already been done, The works on the intersection at KGR are next.

http://www.westconnex.com.au/assets/img/content/westconnexmap.pdf
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 193):
Let's get the terminology right guys, WestConnex is the duplication of the M5 tunnels as well as the works on the M4.

There you go, you learn something new everyday. I thought the M5 duplication was a separate project and WestConnex was purely the M4, but the Government has put it all under the same package.
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 185):
A cab fare is going to be ~$100 and if there was a scheduled bus service, it would take probably 45 mins (even with WestConnex?).

I wonder if we will end up with a similar situation as Tokyo (with Haneda/Narita)

From what I have heard making the trip between Narita & Haneda is not the most ideal transfer. Unless there is a direct rail line without the need to change trains - a straightforward way to avoid Sydney's roads and horrible M5 at all costs - then I would not even wish a transfer between Mascot & Badgerys Creek on my worst enemy  

WestConnex and any improvements aside, the M5 might very well always be the hole it is IMHO. I pity those who rely on it  
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 187):
If you could do the journey in less than an hour you deserve some kind of award.

  

Some kind of bravery award would be justified for those who put up with it and use it everyday as it is  
Quoting travelhound (Reply 190):
This could actually represent an opportunity for Sydney Airport rather than a threat.

That is exactly how I see it. I see it as an opportunity to take some of SYD's traffic that it does not really need or could be better served elsewhere and therefore free up some space / slots / capacity / whatever at SYD to cater to new opportunities that would be better suited to SYD.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 192):
Speaking of the M5, it is the elephant in the room when discussing Badgerys Creek. It simply MUST be duplicated along it's entire route with a spur constructed ASAP to the Badgerys Creek site to allow efficient transport of construction workers and materials/equipment to the site.

I would still not want to rely on the horrible M5 to transfer between airports even it its entire length was duplicated. A direct rail line without out the need to change trains plea$e  
Quoting bunumuring (Reply 192):
Thanks for reading my soapbox opinion piece...

My pleasure, as always, Mate!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:23 am

While we are on infrastructure issues, Parramatta Council are calling for a no fly zone over the Paramatta CBD to permit the construction of 500m buildings. Some of the comments suggest that the rule exists because CASA is stingy on radar systems.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 196):

Interesting article that kind of made me laugh at the height mentioned.

""The council is calling for a "bubble over Parramatta" so that buildings up to 500 metres high can be constructed without regard to flight paths.""

306m high was the tallest building that I saw proposed in that article, which makes me laugh less than the idea of a 500m tall building in Parra  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 196):
While we are on infrastructure issues, Parramatta Council are calling for a no fly zone over the Paramatta CBD to permit the construction of 500m buildings. Some of the comments suggest that the rule exists because CASA is stingy on radar systems.

500m is a bit overkill for Parramatta (with all due respect to those out in Western Sydney). No building in the CBD is over 400m, and Parramatta want something over 500m !

I don't know about a no fly zone for Parramatta, but it is no go zone for me   
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777Jet
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 116

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 198):
500m is a bit overkill for Parramatta (with all due respect to those out in Western Sydney). No building in the CBD is over 400m, and Parramatta want something over 500m !

Well said. Despite the potential of Parra 500m is "overkill"  
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 198):
I don't know about a no fly zone for Parramatta, but it is no go zone for me

Parra is not on my 'no go zone' list, but it is on my 'only go to if necessary' list  
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