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Max Q
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No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:29 am

Looking at the picture on it's first test flight it looks like there are no main gear doors like the 737.



Great looking aircraft but i'm surprised at this due to the drag penalty.
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Part147
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:58 am

Didn't hurt the success of the 737  
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:50 am

Most aircraft made by Bombardier lack gear doors.
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CaptCosslett
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:34 am

Cessna dropped gear doors on the C210 in 1979, there was effect on performance. What it do was save weight and made the gear retraction simpler - no gear door actuators.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Looking at the picture on it's first test flight it looks like there are no main gear doors like the 737.

They don't have them on the 100, so why would they add them to the 300?
 
starrymarkb
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:17 pm

The E-Jets don't have them either. As long as the streamlined hub is present there isn't much of a penalty (slightly increased drag, vs weight of doors and actuators)
 
slcguy
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting CaptCosslett (Reply 3):
Cessna dropped gear doors on the C210 in 1979, there was effect on performance. What it do was save weight and made the gear retraction simpler - no gear door actuators.
Quoting Part147 (Reply 1):
Didn't hurt the success of the 737


Agree with both of these posts,

For the Cessna 210 Centurion the elimination of the gear doors didn't hurt performance much but simplified maintenance and increased reliability of the complex gear system.

As for the CS100 and 300, having exposed wheels flush with fuselage when retracted like the 737 has very little economic penalty but saves the extra weight and maintenance of gear doors.

[Edited 2015-02-28 04:44:46]

[Edited 2015-02-28 05:04:02]
 
GRRECPGRR
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:58 pm

Its more of an aesthetics issue then anything else. Operationally, the cost/benefit metric pays for itself.

What little penalty is paid in operation due to drag is more than offset through more simplistic design, construction, operation, maintenance, etc.

I remember working the ramp on day with an ol' NW DC9 (my favorite planes by the way) and just as I parked her and told the captain to set brakes, I heard a loud clunk. Looking back, there was the port side gear door, it came loose from its catch and dropped to the ground.

Good thing it didn't drop on taxi as I would have had to do an emergency stop on the apron away from the gate. Captain didn't seem bothered by it much at all. MTC came out, reset the latch and they left on time.

No gear door, small drag penalty, but no weight or MTC issues to deal with. And trust me, when that bogie is up in its nest, its a tight fitting design. They account for as much of the drag penalty as they can in the design of it in the first place.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Looking at the picture on it's first test flight it looks like there are no main gear doors like the 737.

The E190 family is like this as well
 
Max Q
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:36 am

It is a great looking aircraft, even without gear doors !
The nose section is particularly attractive, much more so than the 787.


Whether they will sell enough to make money for Bombardier is another matter unfortunately.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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26point2
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 2):
Most aircraft made by Bombardier lack gear doors.

BBD-700 Global Express has gear doors. I know you said "most" and you might be right....just wanted to point this out.
 
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777222LR
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:52 am

Does the extreme cold and high wind do anything to the exposed tire on the 737?
 
AA737-823
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:13 am

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 11):

Does the extreme cold and high wind do anything to the exposed tire on the 737?

Clearly not; the 737 is capable of 11+ hour nonstops (see PrivatAir/SAS service SVG-IAH), and has been flying sans doors for ~50 years.
Also, one must remember that main gear wheel wells are not pressurized on any airliner; the wheels and tires are going to be incredibly cold any way you look at it.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:53 am

This is a mission range optimization. For up to a 90 minute mission, the weight and maintenance cost savings make the decision obvious. Most Narrowbodies are optimized for shorter missions. Plane and optimized (initial) mission:
717: 1 hour
A320: 75 minutes (1.25 hours)
737: 80 minutes
C-series: ? (I couldn't find a link), but it will likely be 90 minutes or less.

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aviationaware
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:31 am

I'd say some smart people decided that the weight penalty of main gear bay doors would be larger than the drag penalty of not having them.

Having said that, people constructing aircraft are obviously not infallible as prominently shown by the bunch of idiots that designed the utter catastrophe called ATR-72.
 
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fallap
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:36 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 14):
Having said that, people constructing aircraft are obviously not infallible as prominently shown by the bunch of idiots that designed the utter catastrophe called ATR-72.

Please elaborate on how the ATR-72 is a catastrophe.
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aviationaware
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:38 pm

Well. An airplane that needs a metal stick to be propped under its tail when on the ground so it doesn't tip over when people leave it is a joke, at least in my eyes. Maybe other people have less harsh opinions on this.
 
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Moose135
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 16):
An airplane that needs a metal stick to be propped under its tail when on the ground so it doesn't tip over when people leave it is a joke, at least in my eyes. Maybe other people have less harsh opinions on this.

The KC-135 used a tail support at times to keep from sitting on its tail when loading. Just me, but I don't think the -135 is a joke.
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FlyHossD
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 16):
Well. An airplane that needs a metal stick to be propped under its tail when on the ground so it doesn't tip over when people leave it is a joke, at least in my eyes. Maybe other people have less harsh opinions on this.

So a simple device to prevent tipping onto the tail is defined as a catastrophe?

Such a support "stick" isn't at all uncommon, especially on freighter aircraft.
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lightsaber
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 17):
The KC-135 used a tail support at times to keep from sitting on its tail when loading. Just me, but I don't think the -135 is a joke.
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 18):
So a simple device to prevent tipping onto the tail is defined as a catastrophe?

That would also imply the 744 is a joke. Except they tether the front landing gear to the ground (an innovation demanded by SQ for the 744).

Quoting Fallap (Reply 15):
Please elaborate on how the ATR-72 is a catastrophe.

Someone who lost airplane sales to the type?   

Lightsaber
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aviationaware
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 18):
Such a support "stick" isn't at all uncommon, especially on freighter aircraft.

A passenger ATR is not a freighter. A passenger plane needing that kind of device is a disgrace, but I seem to be alone with that opinion.
 
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JBo
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 20):
A passenger ATR is not a freighter. A passenger plane needing that kind of device is a disgrace, but I seem to be alone with that opinion.

Let me ask you this: How would you propose redesigning the aircraft so that the tail stand isn't necessary?

Now, let me ask you this: For whatever counterweight measures you employ so that the aircraft doesn't tip over, how will you counteract the weight-and-balance issues when the aircraft is in flight?

And then, how do you counteract the performance penalties that are incurred by adding the counterweights?

I mean, the reality is that with smaller aircraft like the ATR (and the Saab 340, and other small regional aircraft), it's very easy for the aircraft to tip backwards if it becomes too tail-heavy (while boarding in the case of the ATR, and while loading cargo in the case of the Saab).

Even if the ATR had a more traditional forward-boarding and rear-cargo configuration, it would probably still have a tail stand like the Saab just as a safety measure.

I'm sorry that you feel that such a minor feature constitutes a complete design failure.
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rikkus67
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:14 pm

As much as the debate of the ATR tail heavy issue is interesting, can we get back to the CSeries?

Thanks.
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mayor
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RE: No Main Gear Doors On The CS300?

Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 16):
Well. An airplane that needs a metal stick to be propped under its tail when on the ground so it doesn't tip over when people leave it is a joke, at least in my eyes. Maybe other people have less harsh opinions on this.

Same with the C-124, C-130, C-141........I realize they are just "freighters" but they were (one still is) pretty successful designs.

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 22):

As much as the debate of the ATR tail heavy issue is interesting, can we get back to the CSeries?

Thanks.

  Ok....you get your wish.....back to the subject at hand.




BTW, some a/c are nose heavy......some are tail heavy.....it's just a matter of their design, not that they're flawed.
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