Beatyair
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Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:57 pm

It appears that airlines are not getting ride of the 767's as the new 787 are coming on stream. It appears that they are keeping them for higher volume domestic flights routes and keeping them to determine what the best routes are for the 787. There still is that 190 to 250 passenger long range airplane gap to fill.
 
UA444
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:07 pm

The 767 is still pretty efficient and many passenger models still aren't that old. The 787 delays also helped the 767.
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:13 pm

Give it some time. It will happen.


It might be worth noting that no one is ordering new 767's, right!?! Times are relatively good right now. On the next economic downturn - boom - there goes the 767. (or what ever)
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
Andy33
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting beatyair (Thread starter):
It appears that airlines are not getting ride of the 767's as the new 787 are coming on stream

Depends on the airline. BA had 8 788s delivered, and sent 7 763s to the desert. One more may well go next month.
Late summer 789s start arriving and they plan to withdraw more 763s.
 
jfk777
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 3):
Depends on the airline. BA had 8 788s delivered, and sent 7 763s to the desert. One more may well go next month.
Late summer 789s start arriving and they plan to withdraw more 763s.

The BA 767 fleet has been beat up by many short haul European flights. Their AA, DL and UA cousins have had much more leisurely lives flying to Europe or deep South America plus some west coast to Japan.
 
catiii
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:39 pm

Also, it should be pointed out, the airplanes have different missions. They are comparable in size, yes, but the 787's range and performance doesn't make it a true 767 replacement per se.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:46 pm

Great topic. ANA is another example of an airline that has taken a bunch of 787s (the most) and has not retired nearly the same amount of 767s.

787s have been used to open new routes and replace 77Es that are then re-purposed as 747 replacements or new routes.

The BA 767s; weren't some of those replaced by A321s? I think that may happen to the 767s where possible. A replacement from below. Obviously all can't go that way but many.

All the more reason for a 757 replacement if you ask me and I am not talking about the A321LR (though i think it will be solid).

tortugamon
 
Delta763
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:05 pm

It's still early. 787s will first be deployed on routes that are most strategic for that type, where you might not want to run a 767 anyway. Thus 767s will continue fulfilling their mission. As more 787s get rolled out, though, they will eventually fill into the 767's market space, and the 767s will be retired.
 
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American 767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:32 am

Boeing still offers the 767 as passenger hauler, not just as freighter. They decided not to continue offering the 200ER and the 400ER, but they still offer the 300ER. If an airline wants a brand new 767-300ER Boeing will still say yes.
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tommy767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:40 am

Doesn't seem that airlines like UA or DL are ready to replace them yet. UA was considering it, but apparently changed their minds recently.

AA has the older 763ER (1988-1989) of which the oldest frames will be replaced by the 787.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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American 767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 9):
AA has the older 763ER (1988-1989) of which the oldest frames will be replaced by the 787.

Right. Those were the first batch of 15 ordered, they were delivered in the late 80s like you say. Those 15 are the ones that will be retired soon, including 9 this year. Those won't be repainted in the new colors. Their youngest ones date from the early 2000s.
Ben Soriano
 
tommy767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 10):

Those were the 9 763s delivered in 2002-2003 to replace the TW ones that were being retired. There are also quite a few from the 1995-1998 range as well.

UA has the 763s delivered in two waves 1991-1993 and 1998-2001. The older 3-class ones will stick around for a bit longer, simply because UA has no other options to replace them yet (also they aren't in horrible shape either.) The 787-9 are being used for growth.

Seems like DL has quite a few younger examples of the 763 delivered between 1997-2000. A few are from 1991 but with new mods it's hard to tell the difference unless you are looking at the reg. number.
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VC10er
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 11):

Last week I was on a United 767-300 day flight from GIG to IAH when they had cancelled the 777 from the night before. As we all know, the style of the CO interiors are very boring, it looked clean and looked brand new. I'm going back from EWR this Wednesday from EWR to GRU on the 767-400, a 767 I love the most. Too bad neither are 3 class. As United gets more 787's, I wouldn't complain if even the 767-300 did EWR-GIG (I hope and pray)

Where are they putting the 3 class 767's these days and how many are there? I'm one of the odd balls who far prefers the back/forward business seats. They are far more comfortable, IMHO.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:50 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
Great topic. ANA is another example of an airline that has taken a bunch of 787s (the most) and has not retired nearly the same amount of 767s.

In the case of NH and JL, many of their 767s are still quite new, i.e. LNs in the 1xxx range. So I'd expect those to stick around for some time.
 
steve6666
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
The BA 767 fleet has been beat up by many short haul European flights.

Well, that's largely not true. The short haul sub-fleet may be high in cycles, but for the aircraft that fly (primarily) long haul routes that's a less important issue - and some of the remaining long haul fleet are relatively low hours aircraft. G-BNWW for example, delivered 1994, flew 57,000 hours in its first 20 years life. OK, I know some switched fleets at some point, but you get the general picture.

It was (generally) relatively high hours aircraft in the long haul fleet (80-90,000 hours) that were retired already. The short haul 767 fleet - which includes the two oldest aircraft in the 767 fleet - still remains in its entirety. In fairness, it does also contain the five youngest as well!
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par13del
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:28 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
They are comparable in size, yes,

Based on how the airlines configure the a/c or the physical size?
The A330-200 which took the new sale market is larger than the 767 and the 787 is larger than the A330-200, so........
 
VC10er
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:39 pm

Beyond the tall winglets, are there even more improvements, for the sake of efficiency, that are worth making? Example: new engine? Or would Boeing rather see the 767's be retired in order to fill the skies with even more 787's?

Question to "American 767", you said Boeing would be happy to built a 767-300ER if someone wanted one, but I swore I read here long ago that a -400 could also be built, IF someone wanted them, not true? Others here say that United or Delta very much love their 767-400's and wished they had more! Thanks!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
jumpjets
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
The BA 767s; weren't some of those replaced by A321s?

The BA 767s retired in the last year or so have all been the long haul configured aircraft. The remaining 767s include a small number of short haul configured aircraft and the BA stated policy is that they will be replaced by airbus narrow bodies.
 
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posti
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 3):
Depends on the airline. BA had 8 788s delivered, and sent 7 763s to the desert.

BA 767s are the relatively rare RR models. Of >1050 767 deliveries only about 30 were built with RR engines and many of the aircraft systems are different than the standard GE/PW 767s. Perhaps parts are harder to come by or more expensive on this small subfleet of RR 767s, accelerating their retirement.
MKE via RAC, LAF, VRN, SEA, and LGW
 
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American 767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 16):
Question to "American 767", you said Boeing would be happy to built a 767-300ER if someone wanted one, but I swore I read here long ago that a -400 could also be built, IF someone wanted them, not true? Others here say that United or Delta very much love their 767-400's and wished they had more! Thanks!

They would consider reopening a 764ER production line if they get a massive order from one or more customers but they don't market it on their website because the know that is very unlikely to happen, chances are slim to none. They do still market the 300ER because they know that variant is more marketable.
Ben Soriano
 
tommy767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 12):

The newer 2-class 763s are pretty prevelant at EWR as are the 3-class versions. Some of the 3-class 763s on are EWR-LHR/AMS/ZRH/GVA. The trade off of the 2-class 763s are the new AVOD systems in Y, versus the looped programming on the 3-class 763 but the 3-class have F & J which is quite awesome.

Lions share of the 3-class 763s. are at ORD & IAD though. IIRC, 11 of the 3-class will be converted to 2 class in the coming years.

I'd give a slight edge to the 3-class versions as they are more unique, don't have the coffin-style CO BF seats with the small footwell and have the mid cabin lavs (they removed them on the 2-class versions.)
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
UA444
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):

I saw on the pilots forums that they received a memo saying all 35 763s are staying.
 
tommy767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 21):

Great news! Any luck on more sUA 757 staying?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:04 pm

I'm curious to understand the differences, characteristics, and maintenance burden on aging 757 versus 767.

There has been a lot of good information and discussion on the increasing maintenance costs on the 757s as they go through their 4th or 5th heavy maintenance cycle, around the 24-25 year mark. In many cases it was not making economic sense to but these aircraft through an expensive check at that point in their life, with the business case tipping in favor of replacement in most cases with 739ER or A321s.

How does the 767 compare? Is it as back-loaded? Is it different in the sense that typically 767s have lower cycles at a similar age versus the 757 because they are used on longer routes?
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting posti (Reply 18):
Perhaps parts are harder to come by or more expensive on this small subfleet of RR 767s, accelerating their retirement.

Not the case.

The 767 is a relatively efficient airframe with low maintenance costs. Throw in a strong second hand market and you will find it has good residual value.

Airlines can keep a hold of them in the knowledge that when 767 maintenance and fuel costs start tipping out of favour, off loading them will be easy. Contrast that scenario with the A340 which has an extremely weak secondhand market which is impacting their value and is the reason why airlines are dispensing of them as quickly they can.

The 737-300/400 didn't die out overnight when the A320 appeared nor will the 737NG, 767, 777, A320 or A330 do so.
 
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AA777223
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 11):
UA has the 763s delivered in two waves 1991-1993 and 1998-2001. The older 3-class ones will stick around for a bit longer, simply because UA has no other options to replace them yet (also they aren't in horrible shape either.) The 787-9 are being used for growth.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 12):
Last week I was on a United 767-300 day flight from GIG to IAH when they had cancelled the 777 from the night before. As we all know, the style of the CO interiors are very boring, it looked clean and looked brand new. I'm going back from EWR this Wednesday from EWR to GRU on the 767-400, a 767 I love the most. Too bad neither are 3 class. As United gets more 787's, I wouldn't complain if even the 767-300 did EWR-GIG (I hope and pray)

I dunno... I have taken many a flight in J and Y on both the two and three class 763s, the most recent a couple of weeks ago. I, personally, think the two are worlds apart. The two class may be boring, but I find it infitely more comfortable than the three classers.

I think the seats, IFE, overhead bins and general aircraft interiors on the 2 class 763s rival those of pretty much any new, modern widebody. Those three class birds look like a trip back to the eighties...especially once you pass the J galley into Y. They really are terrible (again, purely in my humble opinion). One niggling thing that bugs me to death, is on the 3 class, there is a bubble underneath the armrest, so if you lift it up, you cannot lay comfortably across multiple seats without it protruding into your back. This is one of a million issues I have with that plane. I am a UA platinum and generally and perfectly happy with their product, (not that it makes me special, I'm just saying I spend a little time on them), and we get quite a few of those 767s outta IAH. There truly is a significant difference between the CO and UA interior on that particularly aircraft - I think on the other models, like the 777, it comes down more to personal preference, as the bones of the interior are largely the same.

Those old three class birds cannot be put out to pasture fast enough. As long as they want to keep the two class 763/4 around, I'm happy.
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afcjets
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:37 pm

I hate to see Hawaiian replace the 767 with the A321. The greatest thing about Hawaiian now is they are the only airline with 100% widebody flights to Hawaii, and most are from the West Coast where most airlines are either 100% narrowbody now or close to it. Hawaiian also serves free hot meals too, so flying Hawaiian is the closest things to stepping back into the 1980s. Does anyone know when Hawaiian will receive their first A321, how old their 767s are, and if they have plans to keep any?
 
tommy767
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:03 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 25):
I dunno... I have taken many a flight in J and Y on both the two and three class 763s, the most recent a couple of weeks ago. I, personally, think the two are worlds apart. The two class may be boring, but I find it infitely more comfortable than the three classers.

I was referring to the J and F experience on those older UA 763s. While Y's entertainment system is lacking, the seats are still pretty comfortable. I don't really care about the overhead bins. I flew on a DL 763 from 1987 and the bins were the same style as the ones UA has on the 3-class versions and they were all functional.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
dampfnudel
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RE: Holding Onto The 767's

Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting Delta763 (Reply 7):
It's still early. 787s will first be deployed on routes that are most strategic for that type, where you might not want to run a 767 anyway. Thus 767s will continue fulfilling their mission. As more 787s get rolled out, though, they will eventually fill into the 767's market space, and the 767s will be retired.

Well, like someone else said, the 788 is not the ideal replacement for the 763. The 339 seems to be even less than an ideal replacement for the 763, but that's what Delta decided to order. That's why some airlines like DL & UA are trying to hold on to them as long as it's economically feasible to do so. Last September, I took a flight from JFK to FRA on N182DN, which went into service with DL in 1992. I was flying Y, but I had a good experience. I flew back on KLM from AMS on PH-BFG, a 744 which went into service with KLM in 1990. Old reliable birds which got me to Europe and back.
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