simairlinenet
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Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:03 pm

Previous discussion, for those interested: StarAlliance To USA From JFK? (by VC10er Jan 4 2010 in Civil Aviation)

I fully understand that Star Alliance carriers can cater to local NYC demand by flying to JFK and other U.S. transfer destinations by flowing over other United hubs, but are there any prospects for a Star Alliance carrier to shift (partially or fully) from JFK to EWR in the future? I'd expect that being part of A++ would make it more likely. Also, in a downturn, I'm sure the additional feed from United at EWR would be most helpful.

Air Canada: shifted most from JFK to EWR (lone YYZ-JFK route)
Air China: JFK
Air India: both (why?)
ANA: JFK
Asiana: JFK
Austrian: both
Avianca: JFK
Brussels Airlines: JFK
Copa: JFK
EgyptAir: JFK
LOT: JFK (closed EWR)
Lufthansa: both (why is DUS from EWR?)
SAS: EWR (opposite of the other European carriers)
Singapore: JFK
South African: JFK
Swiss: both, primarily JFK
TAP Portugal: EWR (Portuguese O&D is on the NJ side)
Turkish: JFK
 
chrisp390
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:56 am

I honestly do not understand why most of the Star Alliance carriers at JFK do not move to EWR. The feed on both ends seems like it would make much more sense plus it is also closer to NYC.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Air India: both (why?)

Demand, perhaps?

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 1):
I honestly do not understand why most of the Star Alliance carriers at JFK do not move to EWR.

And fit where? Have you SEEN Terminal-B at any given evening??
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:09 am

EWR is the wrong airport in the eyes of foreign carriers that see JFK at the US version of a LHR vs LGW.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Lufthansa: both (why is DUS from EWR?)

Good question, I always wondered why.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Air Canada: shifted most from JFK to EWR (lone YYZ-JFK route)

They never had anything big at JFK in recent times and were totally absent from JFK for a while.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
SAS: EWR (opposite of the other European carriers)

SAS shut down their JFK operation in the early 90s for a deal with CO.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Air India: both (why?)

Big Indian population in Jersey
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:13 am

I think the carriers that rely on connections like austrian, sas, and air canada need EWR. The airlines that are flying mostly o&d i think are better at JFK theres alot more room its less congested.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:17 am

United is a rather useless partner for most Star partners unless they are part of the A++ JV.

Note that many Star partners have relations with JetBlue and Virgin America @ JFK.
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N62NA
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
EWR is the wrong airport in the eyes of foreign carriers that see JFK at the US version of a LHR vs LGW.

And in the eyes of those in NYC (excepting Staten Island)

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 4):
he airlines that are flying mostly o&d i think are better at JFK theres alot more room its less congested.

Yep.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
are there any prospects for a Star Alliance carrier to shift (partially or fully) from JFK to EWR in the future?

I think the reason we won't be seeing this is because in most cases UA flies to the destinations where these other Star Alliance carriers fly to, so EWR is covered re: those destinations.
 
planeguy727
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 1):
plus it is also closer to NYC.

Maybe if you mean Manhattan, but JFK is in the city, EWR is in New Jersey.

Contrary to popular opinion not every traveler to/from NYC is Manhattan oriented.
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29erUSA187
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Lufthansa: both (why is DUS from EWR?)

Simple, UA connectivity. That helps keep demand and loads higher for LH
 
N1120A
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):

Air Canada: shifted most from JFK to EWR (lone YYZ-JFK route)

That is because Air Canada has a huge LGA operation, which you see to be leaving out and which saps a ton of traffic and yield from JFK. Most of the business traffic from YYZ and YUL is going into LGA, with the New Jersey and Lower Manhattan traffic to go into EWR. JFK is left with some minor connecting traffic and little else. It didn't make sense for AC to have 3 operations, so they moved the longer haul stuff to EWR. The YYZ flights on the Q400 are basically all there to connect traffic from non-partner international carriers into YYZ that comes into JFK - with a little bit of gravy O&D and some yield and mileage redemption dumps from the West Coast.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 1):
I honestly do not understand why most of the Star Alliance carriers at JFK do not move to EWR

I completely understand. JFK is a nicer, less congested, better laid out, more in demand airport.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 1):
The feed on both ends seems like it would make much more sense plus it is also closer to NYC.

Closer to where and by what method? Not closer to Midtown by car, and way more expensive. No subway option. Not closer to anywhere on Long Island, including Brooklyn and Queens.

Its 5 miles closer, by road, to Lower Manhattan. Even there, you actually have better public transport options with the A Train.

JFK is where the demand is. I personally hate EWR and will not use it for anything except a UA domestic or Canada connection, if I am forced to. I will never, ever, O&D from California into EWR - unless MAYBE I'm getting a dirt cheap ticket.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 8):
Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Lufthansa: both (why is DUS from EWR?)

Simple, UA connectivity. That helps keep demand and loads higher for LH

Except that LH has had DUS at EWR for 25 years - long before the current state.

Prior to JFK T1 being built, international capacity was bursting at the seams there, and the facilities of the IAB sucked. EWR was being offered at competitive rates. As such, LH moved all of its regional German flying to EWR. DUS remaining thereis a remnant of that service.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Closer to where and by what method? Not closer to Midtown by car, and way more expensive. No subway option.

Trains from EWR station into 42 Street subway hub, all day long. Way more convenient/faster to Midtown than from JFK, and to Lower Manhattan from than from either JFK or LGA.

Much much much prefer to use EWR for getting to NYC than either of the others.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CONTACREW
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
I completely understand. JFK is a nicer, less congested, better laid out, more in demand airport.

Your opinion

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
JFK is where the demand is. I personally hate EWR and will not use it for anything except a UA domestic or Canada connection, if I am forced to. I will never, ever, O&D from California into EWR - unless MAYBE I'm getting a dirt cheap ticket.

Again your opinion.

I live in midtown and I will always choose EWR over JFK or LGA. Which of course is my opinion.

[Edited 2015-03-05 00:26:51]
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joelfreak
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:35 am

I live on Long Island and HATE traveling to EWR. No one when I travel internationally thinks of Newark as NY...they all talk about JFK. I think it was a huge mistake for UA to move AWAY...and now they even only have 2 flights a day from LGA-IAD. Its like they just don't care about anyone who doesn't want to go to EWR...
 
KLSMB
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
That is because Air Canada has a huge LGA operation, which you see to be leaving out and which saps a ton of traffic and yield from JFK. Most of the business traffic from YYZ and YUL is going into LGA, with the New Jersey and Lower Manhattan traffic to go into EWR. JFK is left with some minor connecting traffic and little else. It didn't make sense for AC to have 3 operations, so they moved the longer haul stuff to EWR. The YYZ flights on the Q400 are basically all there to connect traffic from non-partner international carriers into YYZ that comes into JFK - with a little bit of gravy O&D and some yield and mileage redemption dumps from the West Coast.


Just to clarify, Air Canada no longer sends the Q400 to JFK. They are now operating 2x daily CRJ-705 on the YYZ-JFK route.

[Edited 2015-03-05 01:47:10]
 
blueflyer
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Except that LH has had DUS at EWR for 25 years - long before the current state.

You are right in that it has very little to do with United's hub at EWR.

There are strong business links between North Rhine-Westphalia and New Jersey. Some of the largest German companies such as Bayer, Henkel and ThyssenKrupp have their worldwide headquarters in or near Dusseldorf and large facilities or US headquarters in New Jersey. They are not interested in flying to JFK.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Brussels Airlines: JFK

Brussels Airlines says its passengers flying from Africa to New York prefer JFK over EWR by an overwhelming margin (why that is, I do not know). Additionally, Brussels Airlines is in the A++ joint-venture with United, so technically they fly to both airports. O/D goes to JFK, connections go to EWR on United metal. Brussels Airlines isn't moving anytime soon.

[Edited 2015-03-05 01:40:23]
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stratacruiser
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:53 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Trains from EWR station into 42 Street subway hub, all day long. Way more convenient/faster to Midtown than from JFK, and to Lower Manhattan from than from either JFK or LGA.

?? NJ Transit trains from EWR terminate at Penn Station in New York at 33rd and 7th. By US standards it's not a bad connection, although there are service gaps of up to forty minutes during the middle of the day, the lack of dedicated trains means crowding and minimal luggage space, and the need to connect by monorail effectively makes it a two-seat ride - just like the Airtrain - LIRR connection to JFK.

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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:44 am

Ahh this should be a fun thread...



The metropolitan area is large enough with enough of a travelling middle class to support international flights from both the East (JFK) and West (EWR) ends of the metropolitan '''core''.

The huge tourist industry has no preference and will generally choose whatever is cheaper. I am by not means poor but like most people, I still have to make many decisions based on simple economics where $$$ is the priority and comfort and convenience are second. I have been based out of both suburban NJ and Brooklyn, I have no airline loyalty and will use whichever is cheaper. If I am in NJ but JFK makes financial sense, which it many times does, as long as I can secure a ride, I will take that flight. Same goes for the opposite and nearly everyone else I know follows the same practice. Of course I am of little value to the Airline.

The business traveler will chose according to schedule and alliance loyalty. Star has a fortress hub in EWR, but also Int'l activity at JFK, which is further split between One World and Skyteam carriers. There is enough activity for both to be of high value, which they are to the Airlines / Alliances / JVs. Similarly, both airports are equally as important to the NYC area, as is LGA. The only people would really care are airline fanboys/fangirls or suburbanites with identity crises or insecurities about whether or not they are included in the prestige of being a ''New Yorker''. The old debate on urban identity now begins to look a lot like classism or even right-wing nationalism, as to who is allowed to identify with a given space.

Yes of course EWR is in New Jersey, on the NJ side of the river, as is the statue of liberty (geographically, not politically) and Ellis Island.

There is no sense the ongoing debate, which is at this point is as futile as the ''Best pizza in NYC'' discussion. Its simply subjective from the experience of the biased voice.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):

EWR is the wrong airport in the eyes of foreign carriers that see JFK at the US version of a LHR vs LGW.

That's just an obnoxious analogy. There is simply no Metro airport situation on this planet like this one in NYC. SVO / DME is perhaps the closest I can think of but it still lacks the LGA role.
 
a380787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:40 pm

The airport split is actually advantageous for the traveler .... if I want to go to NRT FRA ZRH PEK etc, I have a choice of airports depending on price and schedule

While AA DL B6 trash yields at JFK, UA is having the whole EWR (and western half of the metro) to themselves. That is why despite being the "wrong" airport for New York, EWR has always enjoyed good fares and yields

And thanks to the fortress hub at EWR, UA can serve lots of long haul business destinations like PVG HKG BOM that neither DL nor AA could match on a nonstop basis.
 
commavia
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 17):
While AA DL B6 trash yields at JFK, UA is having the whole EWR (and western half of the metro) to themselves. That is why despite being the "wrong" airport for New York, EWR has always enjoyed good fares and yields

And thanks to the fortress hub at EWR, UA can serve lots of long haul business destinations like PVG HKG BOM that neither DL nor AA could match on a nonstop basis.

There is no question that EWR is - as United CFO John Rainey said at the JP Morgan conference on Tuesday - the only "true" hub in the NYC area, and certainly the only fortress hub, capable of handling omni-directional, domestic and international, throughout-the-day, traffic flows like neither JFK nor LGA ever can. And there's also no question that this has been and remains immensely beneficial to the EWR hub airline - whether Continental, United, etc.

That being said, I don't think it's as simplistic as "trash yields at JFK." It's true that JFK is far, far more competitive an airport than EWR, but I suspect that in plenty of markets, even despite the competition, JFK is able to generate yields - at least for some airlines - that are as high if not in excess of what United can produce out of EWR. When you include lower-yielding airlines/flights in, it may well bring down the overall market average for JFK, but, for example, I suspect that at least one if not several airlines (probably including United) are able to generate higher yields on LAX/SFO out of JFK than EWR, as well as LHR.
 
a380787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):

LAX SFO LHR can generate better yields thanks to heavier F and J config. But I can't see how JFK domestic as a whole can generate higher yields than EWR since competition is far more intense.

JFK-LAS is a prime example on how JFK doesn't command a yield premium (DL is frequently the price leader)

Now if you combine LGA and JFK and compare those operations against a EWR fortress hub then maybe the eastern side could be slightly higher.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:14 pm

In my opinion, United is not really well set up well for connections through EWR. The flights are more geared towards O/D traffic. There can be some unpleasantly long layovers when trying to make a connection through EWR. The flights to the west coast have some dreadful layovers since EWR is not banked like IAD or ORD. There are dozens of evening flights to Florida, but many other destinations beyond 1000 miles are relatively underserved. Try flying to SEA or PDX via EWR and you will see how poor the connecting options are. You might get stuck with a 6 hour or overnight layover.

EWR offers service to many smaller European destinations on United. However most of the operation is timed for O/D demand and not connections. IAD and ORD both are far better for connections since they have banked departures that work much better. If a Star partner really wants good USA feed, they might as well have an additional flight to ORD or IAD. Many do serve one of those airports so that connecting traffic is not going through New York city. Since they are not funneling much connecting traffic through New York city, they can pick JFK or EWR depending on where the best yields are.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Air India: both (why?)

This makes no sense. Little that Air India does makes sense, but why is DEL from JFK and BOM from EWR? I have no idea why that makes sense.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Lufthansa: both (why is DUS from EWR?)

I think DUS needs to depend more on connections since O/D can be thin depending on day of the week.

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):

Air Canada: shifted most from JFK to EWR (lone YYZ-JFK route)

Like said earlier, Air Canada is biggest in LGA since most of the Canadian population is within the perimeter of LGA. For flights outside of the perimeter, Air Canada has an extensive enough network in the USA that there are few connections.
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commavia
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 19):
LAX SFO LHR can generate better yields thanks to heavier F and J config.

Okay, but I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation - it's true that average onboard yields for AA's (and United's) JFK-LAX is likely higher than United's EWR-LAX, or that BA's JFK-LHR likely has higher yields than United's EWR-LHR, because of the more premium seat mix of the aircraft operated. But is the fact that these more premium-configured aircraft are used not indicate that, in general, at least some airlines feel the yields JFK can command are higher than EWR?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 19):
But I can't see how JFK domestic as a whole can generate higher yields than EWR since competition is far more intense.

As I said - no argument. Particularly given the far greater level of competition, especially from JetBlue, at JFK, there's no question that in plenty of midhaul markets, JFK almost certainly generates lower average yields than EWR on similar itineraries.

Nonetheless, here, too, it's complicated and difficult to truly discern which dynamic is really driving that, and I think no small part of it may also be the effect of:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 19):
Now if you combine LGA and JFK and compare those operations against a EWR fortress hub then maybe the eastern side could be slightly higher.

JFK's yields suffer not just up against EWR, but also - for sure - up against LGA, too. Within the LGA perimeter, LGA often commands yield premiums over JFK, too.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 20):
In my opinion, United is not really well set up well for connections through EWR. The flights are more geared towards O/D traffic. There can be some unpleasantly long layovers when trying to make a connection through EWR. The flights to the west coast have some dreadful layovers since EWR is not banked like IAD or ORD. There are dozens of evening flights to Florida, but many other destinations beyond 1000 miles are relatively underserved.

It's the nature of the beast when a hub is slot-controlled, and even more so at a hub like EWR - and most East Coast airports - where the primary "bank" for catering to 2-way connections to/from the hub airline's longhaul flights (chiefly to Europe) also happens to be at the same time as most other non-hub airlines' longhaul flights. But EWR does offer tons of connectivity.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 20):
Try flying to SEA or PDX via EWR and you will see how poor the connecting options are.

I think part of that is just the seasonality of those two particular markets. It's true that right now, during the winter, when traffic to SEA and PDX drops dramatically, 2-way connectivity to/from Europe over EWR is not available. But look at these same cities in July - easy, well-timed 2-way connectivity between both SEA and PDX and Europe via EWR.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):

Trains from EWR station into 42 Street subway hub, all day long. Way more convenient/faster to Midtown than from JFK, and to Lower Manhattan from than from either JFK or LGA.

34th Street Penn Station

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 13):
Just to clarify, Air Canada no longer sends the Q400 to JFK. They are now operating 2x daily CRJ-705 on the YYZ-JFK route.

They still send it in. Saw it the other day. Don't know if it was a sub or what.

Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 16):

That's just an obnoxious analogy. There is simply no Metro airport situation on this planet like this one in NYC.

I'm assuming this is a language barrier thing. But please don't call my analogy obnoxious. If you want to make an argument against it, fine. But don't take a personal shot like that.


JFK airlines http://www.panynj.gov/airports/jfk-airlines.html

EWR airlines http://www.panynj.gov/airports/ewr-airlines.html


Count the international carriers.
 
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 22):
Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 16):

That's just an obnoxious analogy. There is simply no Metro airport situation on this planet like this one in NYC.

I'm assuming this is a language barrier thing. But please don't call my analogy obnoxious. If you want to make an argument against it, fine. But don't take a personal shot like that.


JFK airlines http://www.panynj.gov/airports/jfk-airlines.html

EWR airlines http://www.panynj.gov/airports/ewr-airlines.html


Count the international carriers.


There's no language barrier issue. You are comparing EWR to a single runway ops, LCC / mostly leisure airport in the fringe of the London urban area that has little to no connecting traffic. The comparison just makes no sense, and presumed it as a over stretched attempt at calling EWR provincial when compared to JFK.
 
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STT757
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:30 pm

Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 23):
The comparison just makes no sense, and presumed it as a over stretched attempt at calling EWR provincial when compared to JFK.

I don't think LGW has ever handled more passengers per year than LHR, at least not in recent memory. JFK has only "taken off" and passed EWR since the creation of B6. Low fares and competition are driving JFK's numbers, not preference for being in Queens County over Essex County. In the early 1980s another low fare carrier, PeoplExpress, drove EWR's numbers similarly past JFK's. People vote with their wallets, JFK is always the cheaper option in the NYC area as there's no dominant carrier and a lots of competition especially from low fare carrier Jetblue.

UA is sitting on 70% of the slots at EWR, combine that with the fact that there are only 16 IAB gates at Terminal B, half of which are occupied by UA, and it's not really a wonder JFK has more international carriers.

The whole LGW/LHR argument is naive to the fact EWR is the hub airport with UA, in London the hub airport is LHR with BA. And second LGW is the LCC airport with Easyjet and JFK similarly with B6.

The better comparison would be CDG and ORY. Up until the French Government made carriers move to CDG in the late '90s each had it's own cadre of international carriers.

CO, DL, AA preferred Orly due to it's convenience to Paris. Even after DL purchased Pan Am's European rights, which was larger at CDG and included beyond flights to places like TLV, DL still moved them to Orly as that was their preferred airport.

PA, TWA, NWA, UA preferred CDG due to it's larger network of international connections.
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a380787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):

The better comparison would be CDG and ORY. Up until the French Government made carriers move to CDG in the late '90s each had it's own cadre of international carriers.

CO, DL, AA preferred Orly due to it's convenience to Paris. Even after DL purchased Pan Am's European rights, which was larger at CDG and included beyond flights to places like TLV, DL still moved them to Orly as that was their preferred airport.

PA, TWA, NWA, UA preferred CDG due to it's larger network of international connections.

With Express RER frequencies today that exist between Gare du Nord and CDG, the gap in travel time between downtown Paris (zone 1) and the airports have shrunk.
 
hohd
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:00 pm

The main reason is UA despite being a *A carrier, is useless and often not cost effective for connecting traffic for most carriers except for those in the ATI. JetBlue is better in connections. The main reason is that UA often flies to the same destinations that the foreign carriers do and they don't want to offer low connecting fares. And JFK is the New York international airport for most foreigners visiting NY and it is closer to Long Island and Queens which generate lots of VFR traffic.

And with the new changes to UA's frequent flyer program, it is definitely not at all attractive to fly most *A carriers (except LH, Austrian, Swiss and ANA).
 
a380787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 26):
JetBlue is better in connections.

Yea ... nothing like arriving from international first class and connecting onto "Even More Legroom" on jetBlue
 
commavia
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 27):
Yea ... nothing like arriving from international first class and connecting onto "Even More Legroom" on jetBlue

Compared to arriving from International BusinessFirst and connecting onto "ERJ for 2 hrs," I suspect that, in some cases, yeah, people would happily take the JetBlue option.
 
a380787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 28):

Compared to arriving from International BusinessFirst and connecting onto "ERJ for 2 hrs," I suspect that, in some cases, yeah, people would happily take the JetBlue option.

The ERJs head to small towns that jetblue doesn't even touch

Now compare that to DL/AA, which may require you to actually making the land connection from JFK to LGA (which anyone who lives in NYC can tell you it's a PITA) before enjoying that mainline from LGA
 
commavia
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 29):
The ERJs head to small towns that jetblue doesn't even touch

... like CLT, RDU, MSY, SAV, CHS, JAX and, until recently, ATL?

All of those markets see - or, again, until very recently saw - at least some if not all of their daily flights from EWR on single-class 50-seat RJs. Up against the vastly superior product JetBlue offers on its EMB190s and A320s, I don't think there's any question as to why there are certainly plenty of people happily willing to connect at JFK between JetBlue and its growing stable of longhaul interline/codeshare partners.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 29):
Now compare that to DL/AA, which may require you to actually making the land connection from JFK to LGA (which anyone who lives in NYC can tell you it's a PITA) before enjoying that mainline from LGA

Well that's really an irrelevant red herring, because neither of those carriers realistically ever could or would build the overall economics of their NYC operations upon forcing inter-airport connections over JFK/LGA - that is not now, nor has it really ever, been competitive (at least not in the last few decades).

Again - there's no question that EWR is the region's only true megahub, and it always will be. Nothing Delta or AA could ever built between JFK/LGA can compete with that.

And, as I've said repeatedly, I continue to believe that many of Eagle's once-daily, 50-seat RJ flights out of JFK connecting to/from longhaul flights are not long for this world - in no small part for exactly this reason: because they just aren't competitive (and, in the context of the merged network where the PHL megahub is right down 95, they're unnecessary, too).

[Edited 2015-03-05 08:27:33]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 21):

It's the nature of the beast when a hub is slot-controlled, and even more so at a hub like EWR - and most East Coast airports - where the primary "bank" for catering to 2-way connections to/from the hub airline's longhaul flights (chiefly to Europe) also happens to be at the same time as most other non-hub airlines' longhaul flights. But EWR does offer tons of connectivity.

I agree that the slot controls in EWR force United to be more focused on serving O/D. The runway slots, congestion and gate availability limit the ability of EWR to be an efficient connecting hub.

Quoting commavia (Reply 21):
I think part of that is just the seasonality of those two particular markets. It's true that right now, during the winter, when traffic to SEA and PDX drops dramatically, 2-way connectivity to/from Europe over EWR is not available. But look at these same cities in July - easy, well-timed 2-way connectivity between both SEA and PDX and Europe via EWR.

The frequency on routes is done to match demand on O/D and not to facilitate connections. One good example is SEA. In low season, EWR-SEA drops to one single daily frequency during low season and increases during high season. Today there is only one SEA-EWR flight and it is a red eye, which makes it useless for connections to Europe or almost any star alliance partner. SEA-IAD maintains 3 times daily service almost year round and has been that way for decades. The 3 flights that feed each connecting bank in IAD allow for good connections. For Star Alliance partners wanting to get feed, they should route traffic through ORD or IAD.
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a380787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):

... like CLT, RDU, MSY, SAV, CHS, JAX and, until recently, ATL?


All of those markets see - or, again, until very recently saw - at least some if not all of their daily flights from EWR on single-class 50-seat RJs. Up against the vastly superior product JetBlue offers on its EMB190s and A320s, I don't think there's any question as to why there are certainly plenty of people happily willing to connect at JFK between JetBlue and its growing stable of longhaul interline/codeshare partners.

That's 6 markets. Compared to how many that UA flies out of EWR ?? Really? SAV, a dinky tiny resort town ? That's the biggest red herring if there is one.

And it's ironic you brought up SAV since AA doesn't fly to SAV from any one of JFK, LGA, or EWR.

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):

Again - there's no question that EWR is the region's only true megahub, and it always will be. Nothing Delta or AA could ever built between JFK/LGA can compete with that.

At least AA has PHL to handle that. JFK is the only northeast long-haul hub that DL has, so it's either JFK-LGA land connection or backtracking detours via ATL/DTW.

ps : i didn't check all 6 markets you've mentioned, but both EWR-CLT and EWR-RDU has some frequencies on 2-class RJs, while EWR-MSY has some mainline, so it's not the pure ERJ fear-mongering you're portraying.

[Edited 2015-03-05 08:44:16]

[Edited 2015-03-05 08:46:44]
 
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 32):
And it's ironic you brought up SAV since AA doesn't fly to SAV from any one of JFK, LGA, or EWR.

It was but one example of multiple - and only among markets that were ~2+ hours in duration. If we want to look at the full list of markets where United flies at least some single-class, 50-seat RJs up against bigger, better products than Jetblue, it's a longer list. There are also multiple shorter markets out of JFK where JetBlue flies EMB190s and/or A320s while United out of EWR operates at least some of its flights on ERJ145s or Q400s.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 32):
At least AA has PHL to handle that. JFK is the only northeast long-haul hub that DL has, so it's either JFK-LGA land connection or backtracking detours via ATL/DTW.

A point I have often made - if you can't have EWR, which is without question the most attractive hub, from an airline's perspective, in the northeast, PHL is likely the second-best choice because it also caters to a very large market (PHL is quite a large population center) and, like EWR and unlike JFK or LGA, can cater to omni-directional, domestic and international, all-throughout-the-day connections.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 32):
ps : i didn't check all 6 markets you've mentioned, but both EWR-CLT and EWR-RDU has some frequencies on 2-class RJs, while EWR-MSY has some mainline, so it's not the pure ERJ fear-mongering you're portraying.

No "fear-mongering" - just reality. Feel free to re-read what I actually wrote:

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):
All of those markets see ... at least some if not all of their daily flights from EWR on single-class 50-seat RJs.

(emphasis mine)
 
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 33):

It was but one example of multiple - and only among markets that were ~2+ hours in duration. If we want to look at the full list of markets where United flies at least some single-class, 50-seat RJs up against bigger, better products than Jetblue, it's a longer list. There are also multiple shorter markets out of JFK where JetBlue flies EMB190s and/or A320s while United out of EWR operates at least some of its flights on ERJ145s or Q400s.

*some* ERJ frequencies ... that doesn't matter if the pax has still has the option to connect onto mainline and/or 2-class RJ

Only for exclusive 50-seater markets does your point hold.

And if the choice is between 2 hour layover and connect onto ERJ or 5 hour layover and connect to jetblue A320, the choice is not so obvious.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):
at least some if not all of their daily flights from EWR on single-class 50-seat RJs. Up against the vastly superior product JetBlue offers on its EMB190s and A320s

I think everyone would agree with that statement.

Fortunately for UA, they're finally digging out of their 50-seat RJ "hole" and the aircraft they will be flying out or EWR in the future will be a huge improvement. It might be a lot of E170s and 175s but regardless a definite improvement over the E145s and turboprops. The marketing advantage that JBU (or anyone with larger RJ or mainline) at JFK has over UA at EWR will shrink quite a bit over the next few years.

Since EWR slots that aren't going away, UA can probably afford to focus the RJ fleet upgrades more at ORD, IAH and DEN where there is far more market share to lose. They will always have the quantity advantage at EWR.

It will be very interesting to see the market shares in the NYC area in 3-5 years.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 32):
Really? SAV, a dinky tiny resort town ? That's the biggest red herring if there is one.

While quaint and lovely, SAV is definitely small ("dinky" to use another word that would be accurate).
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
Brussels Airlines says its passengers flying from Africa to New York prefer JFK over EWR by an overwhelming margin (why that is, I do not know). Additionally, Brussels Airlines is in the A++ joint-venture with United, so technically they fly to both airports. O/D goes to JFK, connections go to EWR on United metal. Brussels Airlines isn't moving anytime soon.

Brussels made a bad move choosing EWR, that's why they started to look at IAD but the times sucked and it was doomed from the start

The JFK route is performing less than stellar anyways..

African Star travelers just hate the current situation because the elites and frequent travelers would much rather fly Brussels airlines across the pond rather than a United for example, but since US left Star there are no real connecting opportunities out of JFK
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Copa: JFK

As agreed between CM and then Continental, neither airline would operate same airport-pairs as the other.
Also PTY-NYC VFR O/D traffic is JFK-centric, due to JFK distance from Brooklyn (largest Panamanian community in U.S.A.), something relevant when the route started and a major % of that route traffic wasn't CM hub traffic.
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N1120A
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 11):
Your opinion

My opinion? 3 runways, with bad crosswinds limiting to just 1? Massive delay issues? Older terminals? The horrible OTG experiment? Mmm'kay.

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 11):
Again your opinion.

Yes, and backed up with empiricism.

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 11):
I live in midtown and I will always choose EWR over JFK or LGA. Which of course is my opinion.

Probably because you are an EXCON and don't know any better. Empirically, JFK and LGA are better located for Midtown.

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 13):
Just to clarify, Air Canada no longer sends the Q400 to JFK. They are now operating 2x daily CRJ-705 on the YYZ-JFK route.

Interesting. Wasn't there a third frequency with the Q400?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Trains from EWR station into 42 Street subway hub, all day long. Way more convenient/faster to Midtown than from JFK, and to Lower Manhattan from than from either JFK or LGA.

1) They go to Penn Station.

2) Midtown is not only Penn Station. If you are anywhere around Grand Central or Central Park, JFK is a much easier, quicker ride.

Oh, and you can get to/from JFK 24 hours a day on the Subway. If you want to get to EWR for a 6 am flight, have fun on the airport bus from Newark Penn passing all the hookers in Newark.

Not to mention it being cheaper and faster in a cab or Uber from JFK or LGA.

Quoting stratacruiser (Reply 15):
?? NJ Transit trains from EWR terminate at Penn Station in New York at 33rd and 7th. By US standards it's not a bad connection, although there are service gaps of up to forty minutes during the middle of the day, the lack of dedicated trains means crowding and minimal luggage space, and the need to connect by monorail effectively makes it a two-seat ride - just like the Airtrain - LIRR connection to JFK.

Not to mention it is more expensive, not an around-the-clock solution and connecting into the subway makes it a 3 seat ride.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 19):
JFK-LAS is a prime example on how JFK doesn't command a yield premium (DL is frequently the price leader)

LAS is not exactly a good example to use as a yield destination for US domestic.

Quoting commavia (Reply 21):
Okay, but I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation - it's true that average onboard yields for AA's (and United's) JFK-LAX is likely higher than United's EWR-LAX, or that BA's JFK-LHR likely has higher yields than United's EWR-LHR, because of the more premium seat mix of the aircraft operated. But is the fact that these more premium-configured aircraft are used not indicate that, in general, at least some airlines feel the yields JFK can command are higher than EWR?

Exactly. Its not as if United couldn't move p.s. to EWR. They don't, because the product works at JFK.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 29):
The ERJs head to small towns that jetblue doesn't even touch

Uh, they head to lots of big places, places that jetBlue does touch. Like BUF/SYR/ROC.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 32):
ps : i didn't check all 6 markets you've mentioned, but both EWR-CLT and EWR-RDU has some frequencies on 2-class RJs, while EWR-MSY has some mainline, so it's not the pure ERJ fear-mongering you're portraying.

Wow, 2 class RJs, with the terrible service dynamic   . The fact is that one can get stuck on a 50 seat RJ in lots of major markets.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 34):
*some* ERJ frequencies ... that doesn't matter if the pax has still has the option to connect onto mainline and/or 2-class RJ

Only for exclusive 50-seater markets does your point hold.

And what are the timings?
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JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting stratacruiser (Reply 15):
?? NJ Transit trains from EWR terminate at Penn Station in New York at 33rd and 7th. By US standards it's not a bad connection, although there are service gaps of up to forty minutes during the middle of the day, the lack of dedicated trains means crowding and minimal luggage space, and the need to connect by monorail effectively makes it a two-seat ride - just like the Airtrain - LIRR connection to JFK.

Agreed. LIRR trains have quite a bit of luggage space, even at rush hour (used to commute into the city). Also Air Train JFK has larger cars than Air Train Newark. Newark's monorail is very tiny and cramped. JFK's has a lot more room. Granted EWR's is older but even so.

And also correct, there is no direct link from EWR Station to 42nd Street. It's all NJT into Penn.
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STT757
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
If you want to get to EWR for a 6 am flight, have fun on the airport bus from Newark Penn passing all the hookers in Newark.

At that hour who the hell would take the train, be it the LIRR, NJT or NYC Subway. For $16 dollars you can take the Olympia bus and travel from Grand Central, Bryant Park or the PABT to EWR in under 30 minutes. Heck according to Google in traffic conditions right now, Friday night theater crowds, Pulaski construction etc.. it says it's only 37 minutes from EWR to Bryant Park. Why would you want to take the train at non peak hours? The Train is good to beat traffic, however if your traveling at non peak hours vehicle is the best bet. FYI in current conditions to drive from Bryant park to JFK is 51 minutes. By car/bus EWR is best.

Btw.

I've worked in downtown Newark, Halsey street, and never seen hookers. The worst place I used to see hookers all the time was in Tri-Beca all around the Holland tunnel and West side highway. Besides the hookers you had the people selling empty stereo and microwave boxes full of bricks.

http://www.coachusa.com/olympia/ss.newarkairport.asp

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

Exactly. Its not as if United couldn't move p.s. to EWR. They don't, because the product works at JFK.

UA needs capacity for hub to hub EWR-SFO/LAX. They have 12 daily today EWR-SFO, a mix of A319s, 73Gs, 738s, 739s, 752s, 753s. All with more capacity than their PS 757s.
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 41):
By car/bus EWR is best.

Good god. No. NY traffic conditions can change and screw you over in a heart beat. If I'm going out of Newark, I'm taking NJ Transit to get there.
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:25 pm

Listen....I don't care what airport you like. There really is no right or wrong in preference.

But one thing I want to dispel on this site about getting out of Manhattan...if you're trip starts or end with the Lincoln or Holland tunnels or the George Washington Bridge...you are in for a crappy start to your trip almost all day long 7 days a week.

It is never easier to get out of Manhattan west than it is east to Brooklyn or Queens. Simply by number of crossings exiting east just has more access:

Battery tunnel
Brooklyn bridge
Manhattan bridge
Williamsburg bridge
Midtown tunnel
59 st bridge
RFK bridge


And then there's a host of smaller bridges north of the rfk bridge to the Bronx

The city sprawls east from Manhattan...so it is always easier to leave east.


Roads beyond that to airports are another point of discussion... My point is on getting out of Manhattan.
 
COEWR787
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Air India: both (why?)

Huge Indian population both on Long island and in NJ. At the Indian end which airport does not matter a heck of a lot since way more than half the passengers are transferring onto domestic flights to go to other places in India anyway and both BOM and DEL provide reasonable transit facilities, DEL currently a little better than BOM until BOM complete construction of the new terminal.

I have noticed that United tries to route transit passengers through BOM more than via DEL. I donlt know the reason for that.
 
CONTACREW
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Probably because you are an EXCON and don't know any better. Empirically, JFK and LGA are better located for Midtown.

Right coming from someone that hates anything CO did and thinks they are the worst airline on the planet so your response doesn't surprise me since you consider EWR third world. Funny how most of the people I live near to or know on personal level always seem to choose to fly out of EWR over JFK/LGA.
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STT757
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 43):
It is never easier to get out of Manhattan west than it is east to Brooklyn or Queens. Simply by number of crossings exiting east just has more access:

Battery tunnel
Brooklyn bridge
Manhattan bridge
Williamsburg bridge
Midtown tunnel
59 st bridge
RFK bridge

Actually it's way easier getting out of the city to the West as the Hudson crossings connect directly to Inter-States.

George Washington Bridge = I-95, I-80
Holland Tunnel = I-78, I-95
Lincoln Tunnel = I-95

There are no Interstates in Brooklyn or Queens, whatever time is gained by crossing the East RIver is quickly lost by the inadequacies of the freeways in the boroughs of Queens and Brooklyn. All those East River Crossings, Save the Brooklyn Battery tunnel who no one is going to take to JFK unless their looking for punishment, lead to local roads with traffic lights and pedestrians.

The New Jersey Turnpike is 12 lanes that separates cars from trucks and buses. Once through the Lincoln or Holland Tunnel it's full speed to EWR. No lights, no traffic etc..

Quoting stlgph (Reply 42):
Good god. No. NY traffic conditions can change and screw you over in a heart beat. If I'm going out of Newark, I'm taking NJ Transit to get there.

I was talking about off peak hours, like right now (Saturday morning). In current traffic you can drive from EWR to Bryant Park in 31 minutes, according to Google maps.
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Andie007
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Lufthansa: both (why is DUS from EWR?)

The 'unofficial' name is the Bayer-bus.
 
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STT757
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:27 pm

There are several German Pharmaceutical corporations in New Jersey, also BMW and Mercedes North American Headquarters are in New Jersey, Hapag-Loyd, BASF etc..

The Hapag-Loyd business probably is the reason for UA's EWR-HAM. The Pharma traffic for EWR-DUS, Mercedes for UA's former EWR-STR, and BMW for EWR-MUC.

Although unfortunately Mercedes will be moving in a few years to Georgia.

[Edited 2015-03-07 06:30:12]
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Andie007
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RE: Star Carriers At JFK Vs. EWR

Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 48):
Although unfortunately Mercedes will be moving in a few years to Georgia.

Actually, Daimler is moving this summer to Atlanta.

LH408//409 is working very profitable in C-Class. You named a few companies using this jet - there are a couple more. Just have Bertelsmann in my mind who use this jet to commute btw New York and Guetersloh. And there's heavy traffic of law firms and consultants on this road.

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