B747forever
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Enilria (Reply 98):
While I do not know if this is a strong argument, I think this will likely be used as a reason not to extend the perimeter at LGA to allow West Coast. More fuel weight, slightly bigger aircraft, short runways, etc. Not a great mix in the Winter.

DL already use 757s/A320s to LGA, and the end fuel on an LAX-LGA and ATL-LGA should be the same, so really doesnt matter where the airplane took off from.

However, your argument might make more sense when considering departing airplanes.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
trnswrld
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:40 pm

Man that was close!! The nose of that plane is literally hanging over the water.
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 96):
Right, but no one put a gun to the pilot's head to take the approach.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 97):
That's what I would think also.

Right. Because wind reporting and failure to turn a runway around to meet that has nothing to do with a pilots decision chain.

Quoting Beefmoney (Reply 99):
The METAR appears to make it look worse than it was. The weather conditions supplied by the controller directly to DL 1086 on approach were that the winds were 020 at 10, and the runway visibility was more than 6,000 feet at the approach end, and 3,000 at the rollout end which is more than adequate, as evidenced by the fact that the 2 preceding arrivals made it in without going around.

It wasn't quite as bad of a tailwind, or quite as bad visibility as the METAR is suggesting, according to the tapes.

Wondering more about a gust maybe coupled with runway contamination or a mechanical failure.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 98):
While I do not know if this is a strong argument, I think this will likely be used as a reason not to extend the perimeter at LGA to allow West Coast. More fuel weight, slightly bigger aircraft, short runways, etc. Not a great mix in the Winter.

Landing weights would be similar and possibly less, so its not much of an argument. Takeoff weight limits will be based on runway length so that's invalid as well. You could make an argument for elimination of the perimeter rule in that regional pilots are less experienced and therefor more prone to error in a congested airspace with the shorter runway.

[Edited 2015-03-05 10:46:22]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 79):
My take is that news media is basing it off of FA. If you follow the landing pattern it shows DL 1086 landing on 31. But looking at the pic at the beginning of this string, the pic seems to have been taken from C Terminal, which indicates a Rwy 13 landing based on the position of the aircraft, unless the aircraft spun around.

As noted above, the ATC recordings are from 13 so it's not a question of which runway they used.
 
SocalApproach
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:43 pm

My airline cancelled flights in the NY area today and all I heard was X airline is still going and I am never flying yours again. Hopefully these people are seeing the news and how serious things can get real fast. I am glad everyone is ok. Hopefully the only damage besides the aircraft will be some egos up front.
 
MSPNWA
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:44 pm

Wow, that was so close to taking a drink in the water. Glad to see it didn't and everyone got off safely.

Unfortunately an MD-88 that old almost certainly made its last landing.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:44 pm

This aircraft, N909DL, was delivered to Delta in January of 1988. I can't see Delta repairing this aircraft. It is getting too close to retirement. Most likely the aircraft will be parted out IMO.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting Beefmoney (Reply 99):
the winds were 020 at 10

Earlier they were being reported at 320 and 330. I think it was variable but point taken.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 103):
Right. Because wind reporting and failure to turn a runway around to meet that has nothing to do with a pilots decision chain.

Huh? Every day, multiple times a day, at airports all across the world, pilots ask for different approaches. It's a common practice. All he has to say is that the approach is outside limitations and they need a different runway.
 
tommy767
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:46 pm

Reminds me of CO 795 which nearly did the same back in 1994 -- except it was during takeoff. It was an M81 going from LGA to DEN. Makes you also wonder, how did an M81 do LGA-DEN off those short runways nonstop?

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-03-03/news/mn-29528_1_airliner-skids

I cannot see this plane being repaired. It's one of the oldest M88s out there (likely converted from M83 since it was a 1987 build) and suffered significant damage.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
32andBelow
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 100):
Parts are an issue with M80s right now. Even though they are being retired pretty quickly, their parts are being snatched up. Most likely a write off.

There is no way you can figure that from that one photo.
 
PlanesNTrains
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 103):
Right. Because wind reporting and failure to turn a runway around to meet that has nothing to do with a pilots decision chain.

I always assumed the pilot had the final say. In fact, I've heard airports remain open many times when flights were choosing to divert instead. Pilot discretion. From my perspective, it's up to the ATC to provide the information, and it's up to the pilot to decide what to do with it.

-Dave
-Dave


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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 108):
Huh? Every day, multiple times a day, at airports all across the world, pilots ask for different approaches. It's a common practice. All he has to say is that the approach is outside limitations and they need a different runway.

Roger. Make a right turn, climb to 24,000 and hold. We'll slot you in after the next 20 flights, or maybe tomorrow if we remember you're out there. Point is moot anyway. 10 knot tail winds were reported which isn't abnormal.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 105):
My airline cancelled flights in the NY area today and all I heard was X airline is still going and I am never flying yours again. Hopefully these people are seeing the news and how serious things can get real fast. I am glad everyone is ok. Hopefully the only damage besides the aircraft will be some egos up front.

Egos? Really? You're saying ego played a role in this?
 
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LN-MOW
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 100):
Parts are an issue with M80s right now. Even though they are being retired pretty quickly, their parts are being snatched up. Most likely a write off

Delta has plenty of parts. They have bought a large number of MD80's from SAS and AA. The issue here would probably be whether the number of manhours make it worthwhile.
- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 111):
I always assumed the pilot had the final say. In fact, I've heard airports remain open many times when flights were choosing to divert instead. Pilot discretion. From my perspective, it's up to the ATC to provide the information, and it's up to the pilot to decide what to do with it.

Oh my God people. Do you know nothing about ATC and how they control traffic flow? If their runway config was set up in a way that is counter to the conditions they carry a component of culpability. Investigations aren't about fault, they are about contributing factors.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 112):
Roger. Make a right turn, climb to 24,000 and hold. We'll slot you in after the next 20 flights, or maybe tomorrow if we remember you're out there. Point is moot anyway. 10 knot tail winds were reported which isn't abnormal.

Right, because that's how things work in your world. In the real world ATC cooperates. I was on the jumpseat last week going into ORD and we couldn't take the approach they gave us because of a crosswind limitation. It was absolutely no problem to coordinate a different approach.
 
7673mech
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 92):
Does anyone know of the MD-88 thust reversers are keyed to wheel spin up or weight on wheels? Would be interesting to know...

Engines at idle - nose wheel on ground.
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 116):
Right, because that's how things work in your world. In the real world ATC cooperates. I was on the jumpseat last week going into ORD and we couldn't take the approach they gave us because of a crosswind limitation. It was absolutely no problem to coordinate a different approach.

You're comparing ORD with LGA? Wow.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
PlanesNTrains
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 113):
Egos? Really? You're saying ego played a role in this?

I don't think he was saying that at all.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 115):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 111):
I always assumed the pilot had the final say. In fact, I've heard airports remain open many times when flights were choosing to divert instead. Pilot discretion. From my perspective, it's up to the ATC to provide the information, and it's up to the pilot to decide what to do with it.

Oh my God people. Do you know nothing about ATC

I'm only a casual observer, and don't claim to be anything more. All anyone implied was that the pilot was in command. If the ATC gave him info that he or anyone else deemed unsafe, they could choose to not land.

I guess I'm not sure where we went from that statement to absolving ATC of all fault? We don't even know what happened yet. If ATC contributed, fine. But - again - if ATC didn't do their job and turn it around or whatever you think they should have done, the pilot could have simply said "No thanks" and diverted.

What in that statement do you disagree with? I'm asking sincerely because maybe that's not how it works??

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
flyinryan99
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 110):
There is no way you can figure that from that one photo.

Yes I can. Knowing what some of the parts cost and other factors, I can come to that conclusion.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting stxbohn (Reply 52):
AA 398 - BOS-LGA, going back to BOS

That one's actually a ORD-LGA flight that diverted to BOS, waited two hours, took off, and then turned back when they were almost there! Talk about a bad travel day.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 19):
Just saw PHL also has emergency!

Jimbo
Quoting aerodog (Reply 49):
CNN's David Soucie FOS as usual stating 1086 hit the berm at 100 mph. My guess maybe 40 mph?

Brian Williams will verify this for us. I heard he was on both flights.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 103):
Right. Because wind reporting and failure to turn a runway around to meet that has nothing to do with a pilots decision chain.

It's obviously way too early to make those kind of judgments, and I feel foolish for speculating already, but I'm inclined to agree. Most operators' company policy prohibits landings at greater than 10kt tail wind component anyway, so if this is the case, it's pretty foolhardy to direct a plane to do so in IMC.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 110):
There is no way you can figure that from that one photo.

Damn straight. The speculation here from armchair.net is borderline hilarious.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 119):
What in that statement do you disagree with? I'm asking sincerely because maybe that's not how it works??

La Guardia doesn't have the luxury of multiple arrival and departure flows in low visibility conditions. ATC determines the runway use. You either take it or leave it. As has been said, the winds were 10 so the use was probably valid. Its the gusts that would be an issue unless their weather reporting itself was invalid. Weather reporting doesn't come from the flight deck.

Either way, ATC makes the call on the runway configuration at an airport where there are limited flow options. It takes time to turn it around so if they were on the margins it can go either way if the config matched the weather at the time. I just get so sick of people jumping pilot error while ignoring that 15 other things outside the cockpit lead up to a decision and an incident.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 122):
It's obviously way too early to make those kind of judgments, and I feel foolish for speculating already, but I'm inclined to agree. Most operators' company policy prohibits landings at greater than 10kt tail wind component anyway, so if this is the case, it's pretty foolhardy to direct a plane to do so in IMC.

Indeed, and if ATC was reporting 10 and they were getting 20 that's a mess. If they were getting 20, reporting 10 and hadn't turned the airport, that will lead to even more questions.

[Edited 2015-03-05 11:05:24]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
capri
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:04 pm

live conference right now

04/22 expected to open 2pm EST
 
SonomaFlyer
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:05 pm

This a/c missed the runway excursion barriers due to its lateral skid. The berm is also there to prevent an overrun into Flushing Bay which worked (barely). EMS reported heavy fuel leak from what EMS reported as a ruptured wing.

I think all involved are very fortunate and conditions this bad can make the runway surface go from good to bad very quickly. NTSB will look at everything including the runway conditions and the anti-skid properties for the a/c in question.

Although its amusing seeing folks prognosticating this baby is a write-off, we literally have no idea the extent of the damage. Some of the things we can see from pics can be easily replaced (don't forget how much work DL performs in-house and they have a good supply of parts).

Thankfully, all are well. Pointing the finger at anyone at this point is silly. There are too many variables in play given the weather, the wind, the state of the a/c, the pilots' reaction to what looks like to be a skid on touch down etc.
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 118):
You're comparing ORD with LGA? Wow.

Oh wow, you got me. But yes I am in fact comparing it as the most recent example. It's a far busier airport than LGA. Equally if not more complex. And since you're picking on this specific example, 2 months ago the same happened at JFK. I guess we can't compare that either huh? Or how about DFW? Or BOS? Or how about last summer when LGA was landing on 22 and departing on 31 and we landed on 31? Or how about any other busy airport with intersecting runways and extended centerlines in which it happens every day? Let me ask you, which example will you accept? I can probably answer that for you, none of them...because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I'm not picking on these guys, because everyone before them got in with the same conditions. But to think that NOT taking the approach somehow puts you into some kind of ATC purgatory reflects a lack of operational knowledge.

Quoting 7673mech (Reply 117):
Engines at idle - nose wheel on ground.

Is that the DL policy or is it locked out? In this video the buckets are out before the noswheel touches down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8-BlQ4D_oU

[Edited 2015-03-05 11:08:02]
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 126):
Oh wow, you got me. But yes I am in fact comparing it as the most recent example. It's a far busier airport than LGA. Equally if not more complex.
ORD has cross wind runways allowing for an easy switch provided air traffic spacing is available, LGA does not. Did you miss that or something?

[Edited 2015-03-05 11:09:42]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
32andBelow
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 120):
Yes I can. Knowing what some of the parts cost and other factors, I can come to that conclusion.

So you know every part on this plane that needs to be fixed, the cost of all those parts, the mx records and finances of this plane, the ability to replace it with another frame and cost. I doubt Delta even knows this at this point.
 
PlanesNTrains
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 123):
You either take it or leave it.

Ok. I don't think it was stated otherwise.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 123):
As has been said, the winds were 10 so the use was probably valid.

Ok. I don't think it was stated otherwise.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 123):
Either way, ATC makes the call on the runway configuration at an airport where there are limited flow options.

Ok. I don't think it was stated otherwise.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 123):
I just get so sick of people jumping pilot error while ignoring that 15 other things outside the cockpit lead up to a decision and an incident.

Right, but it started with you pointing your finger at ATC. Nobody said "Pilot Error", just that the pilot has the final say.

Anyhow, I'll let you have the last word from here. I don't have a dog in the fight and have no interest in getting into that sideshow as a casual observer.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 127):
Did you miss that or something? Someone with such experience should know how this works right?

Did you miss the JFK example? Or LGA? Keep trying...

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 128):
I doubt Delta even knows this at this point.

Agreed. And frankly, it's the LAST thing they should be worried about.
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 129):
Right, but it started with you pointing your finger at ATC.

Yeah, if you skipped over half my posts before then.

Quoting catiii (Reply 130):

Did you miss the JFK example? Or LGA? Keep trying...

VFR? Because you seem to be unaware of the NYC ARTCC SOPs in IFR conditions.

[Edited 2015-03-05 11:25:34]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
SocalApproach
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 113):
Egos? Really? You're saying ego played a role in this?

No

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 119):
I don't think he was saying that at all.

  

Just simply stating that as a pilot you have a goal that in this case was not 100% accomplished. I will leave it at that. I personally think from the looks of it the entire crew did a great job given the circumstances.
 
capri
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:11 pm

few points of news conference:

plane veered off left and missed EMAS
plane landed before hand reported good braking actions
there was fuel leaks a gal/mn

the rest mostly the guy can not speculate
 
flyinryan99
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 128):

While Delta may have parts, the insurance companies will determine if it's a write off from their standpoint. Knowing what I know about the cost of a nose gear (which are in short supply) and if there is wing spar damage (which sounds like it with the fuel leak), then it's most likely and *insurance write off. Should have put the *insurance disclaimer in.
 
Mir
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 126):
It's a far busier airport than LGA. Equally if not more complex.

Except that ORD is master of its domain. What it wants, it gets. LGA is not master of its domain - it has to work around what JFK is doing. So they can't just switch runways if JFK can't. Thus, if you can't take a landing on what LGA is offering, you'll likely wait a long time (which means you'll divert). It's not as simple as just requesting something else.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 135):
Except that ORD is master of its domain. What it wants, it gets. LGA is not master of its domain - it has to work around what JFK is doing. So they can't just switch runways if JFK can't. Thus, if you can't take a landing on what LGA is offering, you'll likely wait a long time (which means you'll divert). It's not as simple as just requesting something else.

And yet just this summer we had no problem landing on 31 when they were departing 31 and landing 22...
 
blueangel5
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:25 pm

 
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jetblastdubai
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 115):
ATC and how they control traffic flow? If their runway config was set up in a way that is counter to the conditions they carry a component of culpability.

This whole situation will have loads of contributing factors to filter through. As a controller I feel I can shed a little light on some of the questions being asked on here.

First of all, at a multi-runway airport or at an airport like LGA where the runway configuration is determined by not only wind, weather and navigation equipment but also adjacent airports or airspace, a tower controller cannot just change runways on the spur of the moment. The configuration needs to be negotiated and coordinated with several other ATC facilities.

When conditions warrant a configuration change, depending on how complicated the change is, many times the center will need to put every arrival in the hold until the terminal airspace is reconfigured. Each ATC facility will agree on a time to change configurations because sometimes the change needs to be simultaneous. If one airport cannot possibly change runways until a certain flight has landed or taken off, the other airports in the area might not be able to change either.

LGA "might" very well have been in the reconfiguration process, as the winds were actually different than the last METAR before the accident, but runway changes in complex terminal areas take time.

Do not take any information from a News outlet as fact.
 
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fotoflyer71
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 122):
Brian Williams will verify this for us. I heard he was on both flights.

Haha   
Try to learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
 
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airportugal310
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 123):
I just get so sick of people jumping pilot error while ignoring that 15 other things outside the cockpit lead up to a decision and an incident.

You are being epically dense. ATC does not make pilots do anything at all in regards to landing. They tell you where you can land, and pilots either accept it or deny it. If you can't do it, you take another approach (as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times) or you divert.

Contributing factors are just that; they exacerbated an already poor situation. The thought process then goes: "Coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't."

What is so hard for you to accept about this??
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 136):
And yet just this summer we had no problem landing on 31 when they were departing 31 and landing 22...

If you landed on 31 when departing 31 then you are with the flow so that's a non issue.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
capri
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:29 pm

rwy 4 is open now and it looks like a delta 1875 will be 1st to take off
 
PlanesNTrains
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 142):
rwy 4 is open now and it looks like a delta 1875 will be 1st to take off

I'd have to go back and listen to the atc again, but there was a DL pilot that had deiced and when told it was an indefinite closure, he said he'd remain ready to go when it opened. Wonder if that's him?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Boeing717200
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 140):
You are being epically dense. ATC does not make pilots do anything at all in regards to landing. They tell you where you can land, and pilots either accept it or deny it. If you can't do it, you take another approach (as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times) or you divert.

That's not what I said. Not even remotely close.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
catiii
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DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 141):
If you landed on 31 when departing 31 then you are with the flow so that's a non issue.

Thank you for finally conceding the point that it is, in fact, commonly accepted that a pilot can request a different approach than what is currently configured. I am glad we finally agree on that.

So let's look at the specific incident at hand. If the winds were, as reported, in the 020-030 range, and they were, as reported, departing runway 4, thanas you say it would have been possible for the Delta to take the winds and land runway 4.

It only took us half a dozen posts to get here...
 
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litz
Posts: 2350
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 94):
That berm is designed to keep the water off the airport not the planes out of the water

Maybe that wasn't primary in the design criteria, but I don't think anyone can argue the results ... it performed pretty spectacularly keeping that airplane out of the water.
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 138):

This whole situation will have loads of contributing factors to filter through. As a controller I feel I can shed a little light on some of the questions being asked on here.

First of all, at a multi-runway airport or at an airport like LGA where the runway configuration is determined by not only wind, weather and navigation equipment but also adjacent airports or airspace, a tower controller cannot just change runways on the spur of the moment. The configuration needs to be negotiated and coordinated with several other ATC facilities.

When conditions warrant a configuration change, depending on how complicated the change is, many times the center will need to put every arrival in the hold until the terminal airspace is reconfigured. Each ATC facility will agree on a time to change configurations because sometimes the change needs to be simultaneous. If one airport cannot possibly change runways until a certain flight has landed or taken off, the other airports in the area might not be able to change either.

LGA "might" very well have been in the reconfiguration process, as the winds were actually different than the last METAR before the accident, but runway changes in complex terminal areas take time.

Do not take any information from a News outlet as fact.

Indeed.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 145):

Thank you for finally conceding the point that it is, in fact, commonly accepted that a pilot can request a different approach than what is currently configured. I am glad we finally agree on that.

You don't see your error here at all do you? I'll help. What are Runway 4's minimums? What was the visibility at LGA at the time of the incident?

[Edited 2015-03-05 11:42:24]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
catiii
Posts: 3263
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 142):
rwy 4 is open now and it looks like a delta 1875 will be 1st to take off

Other good news, it has completely stopped snowing here in New York.
 
na
Posts: 9724
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

DL MD-88 Off Runway At LGA

Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 107):
This aircraft, N909DL, was delivered to Delta in January of 1988. I can't see Delta repairing this aircraft. It is getting too close to retirement. Most likely the aircraft will be parted out IMO.   

I am 100% sure its a writeoff. They dont even have to send an insurance specialist in to declare it has made its last flight. A few photos are enough.

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