Cardiff airport is seeking routes to a hub in middle-east and to the USA

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busines...f-airport-lord-rowe-beddoe-8780967

It will be interesting to know what is CWL airport offering to airlines if they start long haul.

Funny that he talks how great AMS and DUB are but he did not even mention LHR and BA.

Is there enough demand for the flights to ME or US?? It seems like everybody in the UK wants direct flights to the ME.

Who's the best candidate from the US??? United from EWR with B757?? Or DL from JFK?? I guess AA won't interested much having BA so close by.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 1): Funny that he talks how great AMS and DUB are but he did not even mention LHR and BA.

Tat's because BA don't fly CWL-LHR on scheduled flights (only 747/767/777 positioning back after maintenance  )

I heard that BA might soon be starting a regular 747 service from Cardiff to Victorville in California.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 3): I heard that BA might soon be starting a regular 747 service from Cardiff to Victorville in California.

Only one-way service. Greyhound to LAX to connect to A380 on the way back. =D

Nearby bigger, richer Bristol couldn't support the daily United/Continental 757 to Newark at its 6m pax airport, so the chances for Cardiff and its 1m pax airport seems like a bit of a fantasy.

If this happens, it will most likely be a UA 757 from EWR.

And it will be another TATL 757 routes for a.netters to complain about.   

If i was CWL, i would focus my efforts at trying to get a TK service to the IST hub. That seems like the most likely fit.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6): If this happens, it will most likely be a UA 757 from EWR.

If BRS couldn't sustain EWR service then I'm not sure how or why CWL would be any better placed.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 8): If BRS couldn't sustain EWR service then I'm not sure how or why CWL would be any better placed.

Cardiff is the home of the Welsh Assembly (Parliament) Politicians and civil servants feel entitled to long haul travel from nearby at the taxpayers expense   

If they can get an exemption from the UK departure tax like they did in Belfast then it may work . If not no way

For once, CWL is in Wales, BRS, which had Continental to EWR, isn't.
When Continental stopped BRS, one of the reasons was CO got to operate more lights out of LHR and LGW (not attractive for Bristol passengers) wasn't needed any-more.
It's quite possible CWL might be able to support seasonal B757 EWR 4 times per week summers and Xmas-New Year only, out of those times, if BRS was struggling then, better not to comment what would happen @ CWL.
And yes, CWL should focus in getting TK IST flight. A more realistic choice of airline for that market than the wish for one of the ME3.

The problem is people lives in Cardiff actually have to travel further into Wales direction to catch a flight aboard, the thing is the population for Wales are too sparsely populated. If it happens i would guess UA 757 to EWR or Air Transat to YYZ, ME i have doubts as EK moves on from 333.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 4): Only one-way service. Greyhound to LAX to connect to A380 on the way back. =D

Or a 747 (for one month only in October IIRC)  

Maybe TK or EK I can imagine, then AA or DL on the USA side

Quoting b-hop (Reply 12): The problem is people lives in Cardiff actually have to travel further into Wales direction to catch a flight aboard, the thing is the population for Wales are too sparsely populated.

This is not really correct - Cardiff airport is only 12 miles from the city centre and although mid-Wales is relatively sparsely populated, this is not the case for South Wales. Indeed the population of South Wales is 1.8 million, most living within 40 miles or less from Cardiff Airport with 3 medium sized cities and many towns all fairly close together. I am not however sure how well CWL would support a transatlantic flight, although if it was very strongly promoted and advertised on both sides of the Atlantic, I guess it might sustain a summer schedule of 3 or 4 flights per week, particularly given the fact that there are currently no TATL flights from BRS. CWL also has the advantage of a significantly longer runway length than BRS which in theory would enable wide-bodied aircraft to operate TATL flights from there but I think it would be over-optimistic to hope that CWL could support anything larger than a 757.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7): If i was CWL, i would focus my efforts at trying to get a TK service to the IST hub. That seems like the most likely fit.

True, but on the other hand, if TK serves one day Bristol (which is a much larger airport), I have a hard time thinking that they will serve both airports (BRS and CWL).

And the "good" thing about BRS (for Turkish) is that the runway will likely keep the ME3 away, but they can serve it easily with narrowbody aircraft (which would be in any case the aircraft used for a destination like BRS). So somehow they will keep BRS to themselves.

Quoting flylondon (Reply 5): Nearby bigger, richer Bristol couldn't support the daily United/Continental 757 to Newark at its 6m pax airport, so the chances for Cardiff and its 1m pax airport seems like a bit of a fantasy.

Not true , more to do with operating restrictions due runway limitations at Lulsgate and the desire to use the aircraft elsewhere (LHR) to use those outrageously paid for slots !

As for Rhoose far better getting a developed and extensive European network up and running before chasing the glamour of long haul !

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7): If i was CWL, i would focus my efforts at trying to get a TK service to the IST hub. That seems like the most likely fit.

I'd agree, TK is the best bet given they can slap on one of their A320s or 737s on the route and it would work fine logistically. Whether they can fill that plane feasibly is another question all together. Given TK's massive reach into East Africa, Middle East, South Asia and South East Asia, I'd imagine transit passengers will be their bread and butter (like most of their network).

Out of the ME3 I only see EK even getting close to making it work given their massive presence in the UK. They might be able to spread out some initial losses while they attempt stimulate demand. Like TK their reach is massive in terms of connections, more so than Etihad. Qatar might be a wild card because they seem to open some unorthodox routes that EY or EK haven't started yet to get the advantage of being first movers.

TATL I just don't see working.

Do we know what the travel habits of the Welsh are? What's their primary international gateway, I assume one of Heathrow or Gatwick? That's still a bit of a trek.

LHR looks to be the closest major airport, so people probably bus, train or drive over to there.

Cardiff can want all they like, it isn't going to happen in the current climate.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17): Not true , more to do with operating restrictions due runway limitations at Lulsgate and the desire to use the aircraft elsewhere (LHR) to use those outrageously paid for slots !

Indeed, and issues with cargo handling too IIRC.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16): And the "good" thing about BRS (for Turkish) is that the runway will likely keep the ME3 away, but they can serve it easily with narrowbody aircraft (which would be in any case the aircraft used for a destination like BRS). So somehow they will keep BRS to themselves.

The (relatively) short runway will indeed prohibit any of the ME3 from serving BRS, unless QR reconsider and send the 787-8, which I personally think is unlikely. There should be news on TK this year.


Dan  

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 19): LHR looks to be the closest major airport, so people probably bus, train or drive over to there.

I ended up taking the train from LHR to Swansea, since the BRS flight no longer existed.....and presumably that's what the locals are also doing.

Quoting flylondon (Reply 5): Nearby bigger, richer Bristol couldn't support the daily United/Continental 757 to Newark at its 6m pax airport, so the chances for Cardiff and its 1m pax airport seems like a bit of a fantasy.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 8): If BRS couldn't sustain EWR service then I'm not sure how or why CWL would be any better placed.

These kinds of markets would be perfect for the A321LR.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 18): Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7): If i was CWL, i would focus my efforts at trying to get a TK service to the IST hub. That seems like the most likely fit. I'd agree, TK is the best bet given they can slap on one of their A320s or 737s on the route and it would work fine logistically. Whether they can fill that plane feasibly is another question all together. Given TK's massive reach into East Africa, Middle East, South Asia and South East Asia, I'd imagine transit passengers will be their bread and butter (like most of their network). Out of the ME3 I only see EK even getting close to making it work given their massive presence in the UK. They might be able to spread out some initial losses while they attempt stimulate demand. Like TK their reach is massive in terms of connections, more so than Etihad. Qatar might be a wild card because they seem to open some unorthodox routes that EY or EK haven't started yet to get the advantage of being first movers. TATL I just don't see working. Do we know what the travel habits of the Welsh are? What's their primary international gateway, I assume one of Heathrow or Gatwick? That's still a bit of a trek.

With regard to travel habits, I don't think the Welsh traditionally have been a nation of inveterate travellers but I think this has gradually changed over the years, with the population as a whole slowly become more adventurous. I think that the bulk of Welsh air travel would be to the usual Southern European, North African and Canarian sun destinations, through CWL when available but a very large proportion will use BRS. There would also be a fair amount of short European 'city break' type trips through CWL mainly using the KLM services through AMS (which I tend to favour) but again I suspect a very large number of South Wales 'city break' travellers will use BRS for the large variety of convenient direct routes.

For transatlantic flights I try to use the very convenient Aer Lingus services from CWL through DUB where possible, availing of US preclearance there as I don't see the point in flying East (to AMS) to go west! When BRS -EWR was in operation we used this for a flight to NYC but I was most unimpressed by the standard of service on UAL (which hadn't improved from 10 years previously when I flew 4 long haul trips with them) so that was a one off! When the US destination I am flying to is not served directly from DUB, I will generally travel to LHR. These are just my personal preferences, but I know that most of my friends and acquaintances from Wales follow more or less similar air travel patterns.

With regard to TK or EK, I am not sure that the numbers of people from Wales flying East to long haul destinations would be sufficient to support a regular service but I agree TK might have a slightly better chance of making it work given the availability of smaller aircraft in their fleet. As I said in an earlier post, a strongly and well promoted summer TATL flight a few times a week with a 757 might just work (but if it's UAL I would still be flying EI via DUB!).

I would agree however that CWL's primary objective should be to develop a viable and sustainable domestic and European network to attract Welsh travellers back from BRS, although there is of course no reason why they should not also attempt to develop some long haul routes at the same time. I hope my somewhat pessimistic assessment of their chances of success is proved wrong!

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 22): These kinds of markets would be perfect for the A321LR.

Depending on how much runway one needs when loaded and fueled for TATL (BRS is 2000m)

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 24): Depending on how much runway one needs when loaded and fueled for TATL (BRS is 2000m)

The A321LR doesn't have a hope of TATL range from BRS. In summer your hold your breath when a 738 or 320 takes off with a higher load.


Dan  

Would Birmingham be closer for the ME3 carriers not sure if they have transatlantic flights tho.

Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 26): Would Birmingham be closer for the ME3 carriers not sure if they have transatlantic flights tho.

''

Yep. AA to JFK and EK to DXB. There is a seasonal to SFB. Thomas Cook?

Maybe BA should sell tickets to Victorville just to shut them up. The problem is that I think they take the seats out of the planes first. I don't think any American airline would be interested - it's not a top tourist or business destination, just a another large town (nice enough place, though!). Perhaps Emirates could do it, just because they can offer everywhere in Asia and the Middle East as connections. But again, 2 hours drive away already they have 3 or 4 A380s leaving every day.

It's just a 2 hour drive from Cardiff to Heathrow so I think that explains why they don't get transatlantic flights. From certain parts of London if the traffic is bad it could take longer than that. To Cardiff airport the drive is 25 minutes, so it is only 1h30m closer. The other factor is that the population of the city itself is just 325,000.

I have driven many a times from Bridgend/Cardiff area and had it take me close to 5 hours to get to Heathrow due to traffic delays. On a couple of occasions I had come close to missing my flight and other times it was 3 hours without stopping. Granted this is not enough to warrant an international flight to Cardiff BUT for myself and many of my family there in Wales-the preference is for a long haul flight.

Personally I would rather fly into Cardiff than any of the airports in England just for the reduced amount of time driving after a long haul flight. The closest thing to a flight to Cardiff for me right now is with KLM.

Thankfully they are flying direct from Edmonton to Amsterdam where I can connect to a Cardiff flight ( I am on the inaugural flight May 5th).

Heard UA is sniffing around EWR-CWL on 752.

Makes sense at least seasonally.   

It's a bit of a national pride thing, the Welsh Government are desperate to avoid Cardiff closing. They currently fund an express bus every 20 mins for an airport with a few flights per day, they are desperate stem the passenger flow from Bristol. I remember there being comments from politicians when a private company started running an Express coach to Bristol Airport.

Bristol is going to have a big advantage in that it's catchment includes SW England as well, for many Cardiff is too far.

I think the reason they are wanting long haul is that they know it would be difficult to attract short haul airlines with EZY and RYR having large bases at Bristol but Bristol's short runway limits long haul options.

Quoting Plymspotter (Reply 25): The A321LR doesn't have a hope of TATL range from BRS. In summer your hold your breath when a 738 or 320 takes off with a higher load.

I remember the CO 757 used to use almost all of the runway

CWL is struggling to sustain European routes at the moment, mainly because people automatically head straight for EZY and FR who operate extensive route networks from BRS.
Flybe have just announced a new 2 aircraft base with 11 routes, after closing 4 previously operated routes just over a year ago.

If BRS can support about 1m Welsh travellers flying from there, then I'd have thought CWL could support the larger, wealthier catchment of the Southwest that want
to fly long haul but avoid CWL.

On these forums many people talk about the CWL catchment and Welsh economy, with reference continuously being made to Welsh passengers travelling from BRS.
So why couldn't CWL support Southwest catchment if it's not possible to offer the flights from BRS?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16): if TK serves one day Bristol (which is a much larger airport)

Actually Cardiff is a much larger airport than Bristol, with a longer runway too.

Quoting caaardiff (Reply 32): So why couldn't CWL support Southwest catchment if it's not possible to offer the flights from BRS?

The competition here is with Heathrow. A couple of road travel time comparisons show why:

Exeter to Heathrow Airport = 185 miles and 2h 49m
Exeter to Cardiff Airport = 128 miles and 2h 6m (-43 minutes)

Bristol to Heathrow Airport = 103 miles and 1h 36m
Bristol to Cardiff Airport = 56 miles and 1h 6m (-30 minutes)

Physically Cardiff Airport might be significantly closer than Heathrow, but the journey times only reflect a 30-45 minute saving. For most people this is not enough to overcome the much greater choice of direct and connecting flights available at Heathrow. Plus when you look at public transport, Heathrow is much easier and usually quicker to reach.


Dan  

I do agree with some of the posters on here, who've said TK would be a good fit for CWL. I think with a 738 or an A319, possibly 5 x a week to IST to start with.

Looking at Google Maps is their any chance of extending BRS' runway?

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 36): Looking at Google Maps is their any chance of extending BRS' runway?

Not easily, they could put the A38 in a tunnel to buy a few extra metres but the terrain drops off very quickly at each end (the ILS at the 09 end of the runway is on stilts!, the 27 end is a bit shallower but you still wouldn't want to go off the end) which may cause issues with modern Runway Safety Zone rules.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 34): Plus when you look at public transport, Heathrow is much easier and usually quicker to reach.

From Exeter there is a direct coach (NatEx 501) every 2 hours (daytime, less frequent overnight) taking approx 3h40 to Heathrow T123

Best Public transport I found to Cardiff is 4 hours Train and bus combination. (Exeter -> Bristol Parkway -> Cardiff Central -> Bus to airport)

On the Atlantic side, this is a perfect candidate for the 321LR.

On the other side, while TK would have the easiest time setting up, I wonder if they have the network that the Welsh need. No Australia. And very limited India service. Lots of Eastern Europe and Middle East though.

How about QR with an A321 like they send to LHR? Obviously it can't be all business but then not sure if that plane can do that route without being business from a technical point of view...

QR sends its A319LR to London, not its A321.

I would like to see AA buy some A321LR's. If this happens I would imagine service to JFK or PHL possibly BOS might work. Operating cost should be less than a 752, but as far as I know a 321LR is still a paper airplane.

MD

Just a thought, but rather than trying to attract a legacy airline like UAL, maybe the best bet to develop sustainable transatlantic services from Cardiff might be to try to attract a carrier like Norwegian, essentially the only 'low cost' carrier flying the Atlantic non-stop from the UK. I doubt if Norwegian could operate from BRS given the runway limitations there but they could certainly operate from CWL. I am not sure how many people travel from Wales or the Southwest of England to Gatwick to use Norwegian but I do know some people from Wales who have done that. If however, Norwegian could offer competitive fares from CWL, they could well succeed in attracting sufficient passenger numbers from both Wales and the west of England to make it viable. Certainly CWL would be more easily accessible from Bristol than the dreaded journey to LGW.

CWL wants long haul.

I want one night with Kate Upton.

Happily I have more of a chance than Cardiff.

There comes a point when cities have to understand that airlines like to make money, which means putting planes on routes wher they can make the most money, Cardiff will be way down the list .