flyenthu
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Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:55 pm

Hi A. Netters:

The gloves are coming off? Now, Delta is now calling specific routes:

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...ect-to-india-if-it-werent-for.html

The US3 are on to something here, and I think the US3 and the ME3 will probably meet somewhere in the middle as they ought to.

F/E
 
jbmitt
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:06 pm

That's a pretty poorly researched article. As far as I know, DL never operated flights from Seattle to India. I believe it has only ever been non-stop from ATL then JFK or via AMS. The article was complete with typos and errors about the number of international flights from SEA.
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:15 pm

Add into that mix if a US carrier would spend the money to upgrade the inflight product and train crews to the level that the ME3 does they would be a formidable force.

The flight attendants would dearly love to see a return to the days of incredible premium cabin services with well-prepared meals, state of the art seating and AVOD and other features found on the ME3. Give them a product they can be proud to present and they WILL excel.

The problem is convincing senior management that the major investment in such a service would be warranted and salable. Few US businesses will spend the kind of money that it takes to book a suite on Emirates or their peers. Those that will have invested heavily in private jets where they can totally control the environment and the product. It will be tough to get them to sell their BBJ's and return to a commercial airline again where, at the next hiccup in the economy, it could all be taken away again.
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:18 pm

SEA is the only major US airport that could reasonably one stop Southern Indian airports like BLR & MAA & HYD.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 2):
Add into that mix if a US carrier would spend the money to upgrade the inflight product and train crews to the level that the ME3 does they would be a formidable force.

The flight attendants would dearly love to see a return to the days of incredible premium cabin services with well-prepared meals, state of the art seating and AVOD and other features found on the ME3. Give them a product they can be proud to present and they WILL excel.

The problem is convincing senior management that the major investment in such a service would be warranted and salable. Few US businesses will spend the kind of money that it takes to book a suite on Emirates or their peers. Those that will have invested heavily in private jets where they can totally control the environment and the product. It will be tough to get them to sell their BBJ's and return to a commercial airline again where, at the next hiccup in the economy, it could all be taken away again.

This. U.S. airlines don't offer the same product the ME3 do. Plain and simple. The U.S. crews would be proud to offer such services if the airlines saw fit to provide them. Many complain about the demeanor of U.S. crews vs those of the ME3 and Asian carriers and there is some merit there but part of that stems from years of having to continually try overcome the lack of and reduction of amenities and services that the U.S. airlines provide. I might also take DL more seriously if they, and many other U.S. carriers, didn't receive subsidies themselves in the form of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is what allowed them shed many unnecessary costs and restructure into the powerhouses they are now.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 4):

And Union makes it hard to terminate disgruntled employees as long as they don't screw up too bad.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:00 pm

Half of the profit made in the global airline industry was made by just US airlines last year and it should be even more stark this year. We are coming out of a time period where the US airline industry was a mess and the airlines did not have the financial resources in order to improve their product and it was evident to anyone flying US domestically outside of a couple carriers (I have jetBlue as an exception).

With this renewed profit I think we will see airlines making the necessary investments to become more globally relevant and that makes me excited. I see it happening at AA and to a limited extent DL. Now if only we can get the CEOs to stop buying back stock with their new found cash stockpiles!

I could also see the cash as a way to loosen union rules and allow for airlines to once-again be able to hire pleasant, friendly, attractive and hospitable staff - Maybe my optimism needs to know its limits  

tortugamon
 
catiii
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):

The irony of this is a few year ago, DL was complaining that India didn't workable them because Air India and Jet got 777 EXIM financing...funny how the reasoning has changed.

Meanwhile UA makes it work. DL is just making excuses for its own shortcomings in the India market.
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
I could also see the cash as a way to loosen union rules and allow for airlines to once-again be able to hire pleasant, friendly, attractive and hospitable staff - Maybe my optimism needs to know its limits

If U.S. carriers were able to outsource cheap labor from all around the world then they may be on an level playing field in this respect, but I'm glad that they aren't able to do that. Fortunately, U.S. labor laws don't permit this for the most part.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
And Union makes it hard to terminate disgruntled employees as long as they don't screw up too bad.

True that, but let's face it, the service industry in the U.S. is largely in the toilet. Good service in any industry is hard to come by anymore - unions or no. I think this is more of a cultural thing than a union thing. The service industry is not looked at in the U.S. in the same way it is in other countries.

[Edited 2015-03-07 15:12:01]
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting YouGeeElWhy (Reply 3):
SEA is the only major US airport that could reasonably one stop Southern Indian airports like BLR & MAA & HYD.

JFK and BOS could do it too and you would not have to divert around the himalayas I believe.
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 1):
As far as I know, DL never operated flights from Seattle to India.

The article doesn't say they used to, it says they (allegedly) would if it were not for the ME3. Of course, like much of the 'complaint', it's impossible to prove. Just more bluster from DL.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
With this renewed profit I think we will see airlines making the necessary investments to become more globally relevant and that makes me excited.

After years of losing billions of dollars, good luck convincing the shareholders and Wall St. on that.
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thekorean
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:14 pm

I disagree. I do not have many negative experience with flight attendants on any US3 even UA.

The problemwith US3 service is delays and getting compensations.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
If U.S. carriers were able to outsource cheap labor from all around the world then they may be on an level playing field in this respect, but I'm glad that they aren't able to do that. Fortunately, U.S. labor laws don't permit this for the most part.

Agreed. No getting around that. Also, safety standards, and costs of operation (outside of fuel) are higher as well. No-doubt US airlines have a more difficult time competing globally than the ME3, for example.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
the service industry in the U.S. is largely in the toilet

I disagree. Airlines yes, but i think the restaurant and the highend hotel service standards are very high relative to global standards. I think some places are better like Hong Kong and Switzerland and even the Middle East can be great but I disagree that it is in disarray here. The lower-middle end service industry has never been good and some could say that is indeed getting worse.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
After years of losing billions of dollars, good luck convincing the shareholders and Wall St. on that.

They would not have to convince this one. Anyway, the airlines are largely forgotten by intelligent institutional investors. Plus there is nothing left for them to do? In many cases their fleets are so old that the don't have a choice: look at AA and DL and their fleet ages.

I believe that the US consolidation has allowed them to thin out over-supply in certain markets which is healthy. I am optimistic that the industry has turned a corner.

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lightsaber
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:52 pm

Delta would *not* be flying direct SEA to India. That would require an Indian partner in Skyteam to help distribute the traffic. So it only applies if EY had not invested into jet. Now that 9W is part of the "Etihad Equity alliance," DL has the option to fly SEA to AUH to connect with 9W. But that would require convincing EY/9W to have Jet placed into Skyteam. Not to mention SEA isn't 'premium rich' like New York, Houston, and Los Angeles.

The reality is this is sour grapes on the devaluing of the DL/KL/AF joint ventures. The US3 could make noise as the EU3 are (BA, LH, KL/AF), but there is no fundamental right to hub. With Japan and China having restricted hubbing, that leaves India open as HKG is a bit too far south for good US west coast to India transfers.

The real opportunity is for India and Korea to *finally* sign an updated bilateral.

India wants investment from Korean car companies.

Korea wants some anti-corruption measures and *far* more airline access for KE & OZ.

Both have much to gain. India *not* going to the table (to protect AI) helps no one.

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):
The US3 are on to something here,

I disagree.

Quoting YouGeeElWhy (Reply 3):

SEA is the only major US airport that could reasonably one stop Southern Indian airports like BLR & MAA & HYD.

Where is the O&D to pay for such a premium route? It will be EWR or JFK to India for a long time IMHO.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 6):
Half of the profit made in the global airline industry was made by just US airlines last year and it should be even more stark this year.

   But DL wants that ignored.  
Quoting catiii (Reply 7):
The irony of this is a few year ago, DL was complaining that India didn't workable them because Air India and Jet got 777 EXIM financing...funny how the reasoning has changed.

DL would have a different fleet with EXIM financing. I am ok about them complaining about EXIM. However, I would rather US airlines be included (and EU airlines too, both from the US and EU equivalent) to help promote global aviation growth.   

DL was hurt by AIs widebody expansion. That shouldn't be ignored.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 9):
JFK and BOS could do it too and you would not have to divert around the himalayas I believe.

BOS lacks the volume of premium traffic that the NYC area supplies. IMHO BOS and DUB will become LCC TATL hubs with the A321LR and lose out on longer direct flights. Cest la vie.


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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:33 am

Funny Delta complains about Exim, yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.
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chrisp390
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 12):

The airlines in the USA are being recognized more and more by smart investors. The past 2 years I believe they have been the top performing industry. DL has been leading the way transforming the industry to focus on profits as opposed to being a public service. I have invested a significant amount of money in them the past few years and had phenomenal returns. Listen to any of DL presentations and they emphasize time and time again that it makes more financial sense for them to offer a slightly premium product over the other US carriers and they will get above and beyond returns on that. They are in the middle of a big transformation right now doing that as is AA to an extent. It will take time but I can see big improvements over the next few years if they continue to print big profits. The margins are very solid in the Us airline industry and are better than many other industries now believe it or not. One of the reasons this has taken a while is Delta had $15 billion of debt and has had to wind that down before being able to put significant money into its product.
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
But DL wants that ignored.

Well of course they do, except by the investor community that is.  
Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 15):
The airlines in the USA are being recognized more and more by smart investors.

I agree with that.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 15):
They are in the middle of a big transformation right now doing that as is AA to an extent. It will take time but I can see big improvements over the next few years if they continue to print big profits.

Agree again. Costs are declining, ticket prices are rising and the aircraft we are flying are becoming increasing newer. All very good things for an airline's financial statements.

The increase in prices will be controlled by market pressures as long as people don't mind connecting (read: leisure travelers). I also see Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant growing that true LCC segment at a very solid pace hopefully limiting price increases.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 15):
Delta had $15 billion of debt and has had to wind that down before being able to put significant money into its product.

And certainly that was not unique to DL as the other two members of the big three has/had debt concerns as well.

tortugamon
 
catiii
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:01 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):

Airbus is not allowed to export credit finance for US carriers, and vice versa.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):

How is United able to make it work?
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 7):
Meanwhile UA makes it work. DL is just making excuses for its own shortcomings in the India market.

  

If UA can fly EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL profitably, then I'm really, really struggling to figure out what gives for DL. Either UA are hemorrhaging losses (which I doubt) or DL is crying because for whatever reason they can't replicate what UA are doing out of JFK.
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 1):
I believe it has only ever been non-stop from ATL then JFK or via AMS.

DL has flown FRA-BOM, CDG-BOM, CDG-MAA, AMS-BOM, JFK-BOM, ATL-BOM



Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 4):
This. U.S. airlines don't offer the same product the ME3 do. Plain and simple. The U.S. crews would be proud to offer such services if the airlines saw fit to provide them. Many complain about the demeanor of U.S. crews vs those of the ME3 and Asian carriers and there is some merit there but part of that stems from years of having to continually try overcome the lack of and reduction of amenities and services that the U.S. airlines provide. I might also take DL more seriously if they, and many other U.S. carriers, didn't receive subsidies themselves in the form of bankruptcy.

     


Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
How is United able to make it work?

Consolidated powerful NYC area hub, able to tap the market's massive O&D+cnnx more efficiently than circa-2008 DL.
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incitatus
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Funny Delta complains about Exim, yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.

Business is not about being coherent. It is about operating within a legal framework to maximize returns. Delta excels at it.
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rta
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:48 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
DL is crying because for whatever reason they can't replicate what UA are doing out of JFK.

United goes to India from EWR.
 
catiii
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:13 am

Quoting rta (Reply 21):

Right, he's saying Delta can't replicate out of JFK was UA is doing in EWR.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):

So they moved JFK to ATL in 2008, and ended ATL in October 2009. Atlanta, which they tout as the world's most powerful hub, and whuch really has seen no changes since then couldn't make it work. JFK, which is allegedly optimized now still won't work or so they say. Something doesn't make sense. UA, which has much more connectivity post CO merger, is making 2 nonstops work from NYC.
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
UA, which has much more connectivity post CO merger, is making 2 nonstops work from NYC.

There's your answer. DL doesn't have near the connectivity to/from JFK. The bus from LGA is not a connection, either. DL needs strong O&D demand to make it work, and the economics aren't there from Manhattan.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Funny Delta complains about Exim, yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.

The EU and US are excluded from using each others export finance vehicle. So no exim finance for DL's Airbuses nor BA's 787s.   

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
Airbus is not allowed to export credit finance for US carriers, and vice versa.

  
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northwestEWR
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 23):

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
UA, which has much more connectivity post CO merger, is making 2 nonstops work from NYC.

There's your answer. DL doesn't have near the connectivity to/from JFK. The bus from LGA is not a connection, either. DL needs strong O&D demand to make it work, and the economics aren't there from Manhattan.

Probably also worth noting that the Indian population in Jersey as compared to Manhattan or Long Island is massive. EWR is extremely convenient to these folks and many of them are in bed with UA already.
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 1):
That's a pretty poorly researched article. As far as I know, DL never operated flights from Seattle to India. I believe it has only ever been non-stop from ATL then JFK or via AMS. The article was complete with typos and errors about the number of international flights from SEA.

DL got the FRA-BOM/DEL routes from PA.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 4):
I might also take DL more seriously if they, and many other U.S. carriers, didn't receive subsidies themselves in the form of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is what allowed them shed many unnecessary costs and restructure into the powerhouses they are now.

Sorry, but DL has filed BK, ONCE in 85 years. It's not like they do it every year.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
  But DL wants that ignored.

Not really, because they tout how much they're making quite often, most recently when the profit sharing was handed out.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.

Aren't the rest, also? Not the same situation, is it?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
And certainly that was not unique to DL as the other two members of the big three has/had debt concerns as well.

How well have the other two done in paying down their debt? As well as DL has?
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mpdpilot
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:12 am

This is probably DL's best arguement to the problems with the ME3. I doubt it will go anywhere but at least they are trying.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Funny Delta complains about Exim, yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.

DL isn't complaining about EXIM so that it ends, they are complaining because they want it extended US careers. DL Loves that kind of financing. They are arguing that if it was extended to US careers then they would have ordered 777s instead of A350s. whether or not that is actually true I don't know.

What I think is happening, is that DL and soon AA, are going to start having more and more trouble saying they are being treated unfairly when they are making records profits. While DL has a case to be made it is hard for anyone to take it seriously when they made billions last year. It will be interesting to see how the next several years play out.
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mayor
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:20 am

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 27):

What I think is happening, is that DL and soon AA, are going to start having more and more trouble saying they are being treated unfairly when they are making records profits. While DL has a case to be made it is hard for anyone to take it seriously when they made billions last year.

Imagine how much they might have made if they had been treated "fairly"?
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ASFlyer
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:32 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
Sorry, but DL has filed BK, ONCE in 85 years. It's not like they do it every year.

How does it change the fact that they, and United and American filed bankruptcy at all? Is this something they're proud of? They walked away from quite a bit of debt and imposed substantial pay cuts and work rule changes on their employees.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:58 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):
Is this something they're proud of? They walked away from quite a bit of debt and imposed substantial pay cuts and work rule changes on their employees.

No, I don't believe any of us were "proud" of it, but it saved the company and now they're back, more successful than before. Between 2002 and 2005, they were bleeding money, right and left. Finally, they took the option that they really didn't want to take, but it was necessary. I know they took substantial pay cuts, but, unless I'm mistaken, those have almost been restored, now. I'm sure most DL employees that went thru that, having experienced it, prefer that to what befell the EA employees. What Anderson is doing, now, is trying to keep them solvent, with lots of cash on hand, to avoid having to do it, again.
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:40 am

I never understood why the ME3 are such a threat. Everyone says "they are bringing excess capacity and lower fairs that US3 can't compete with. KAYAK any origin and destination and i can almost guarantee that a flight on US3 will be cheaper than ME3. And if not US carrier than another carrier other than ME3. I don't get it. Everytime I look up something 9 times out of 10 ME3 is more expensive and a longer flight. I don't get it. Why are people freaking out about ME3 blowing up the market. yes there is more capacity. But who would buy it? Its significantly more usually. Anyone else see this too? Am I crazy?
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting danj555 (Reply 31):

I never understood why the ME3 are such a threat. Everyone says "they are bringing excess capacity and lower fairs that US3 can't compete with. KAYAK any origin and destination and i can almost guarantee that a flight on US3 will be cheaper than ME3. And if not US carrier than another carrier other than ME3. I don't get it. Everytime I look up something 9 times out of 10 ME3 is more expensive and a longer flight. I don't get it. Why are people freaking out about ME3 blowing up the market. yes there is more capacity. But who would buy it? Its significantly more usually. Anyone else see this too? Am I crazy?

what flights are you looking at? Just doing a quick search for US-India, Emirates is always the cheapest. And while their flights might be longer in some cases, the flight is on Emirates (a lot of people prefer them over US3), the connection is in DXB (a lot of people prefer DXB to LHR or CDG or FRA).

Just looking at NYC-BOM, UA is slightly more expensive on the dates I looked with a non-stop, but I would much rather pay less and fly EK. Now if they were all the same, I would probably choose DL over AMS or AA over LHR for mileage reasons, but that is just me.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
skystar767
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:40 am

The Middle East is the best mid point to any South Asian and most of north and central African countries. LHR/CDG/AMS/BRU for many years and still doing now treat connecting passengers like animals yes I said animals. They keep you in a holding area for hours at a time where as in the M3 hubs your free to go anywhere in the airport. I would also like to point out that South Asia has a very big up and coming middle class who has money and are traveling more. I think if the US3 wanted to blame someone it should not be the M3 it should be India/Pakistan/Bangladesh and the other south asian countries.
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:55 am

IS not the central problem here that US3, EU3 try to limit competition on the cost of the consumer. All this talk that the economy class passengers is better leave behind then having bigger air planes that economically can bring them. This is an Oligopoly model. This always works until new actors enters.

ME3 perhaps started their activity with cash from governments, but what is the difference from EU3? SAS for example got help from the Scandinavians just 2-3 years ago. US3 has been creating their business on a non free market that open up when they already was formed.

I been working in other business including start ups and know that it is hard and to make a venture of international level often takes help from the government direct or indirect. Sweden did this with Ericsson, SAS. Now China makes it with Huwei.

USA did it with Boeing and military industry that indirect helped the air industry.
 
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):
Is this something they're proud of? They walked away from quite a bit of debt and imposed substantial pay cuts and work rule changes on their employees.

"Proud?" ...well, corporations don't have emotions, so no.

But what they do have, is a primary objective of delivering expectant returns to shareholders-- and that's one way to effectively (begin the process of) do(ing) it better.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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HALtheAI
Posts: 294
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:27 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 35):
"Proud?" ...well, corporations don't have emotions, so no.

How dare you! US corporations are people too!
 
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thekorean
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):

Still not subsidy. EU3 has done that, see Swiss International Airlines.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 37):
Still not subsidy

The name might be different but the principle is the same - a legal governmental method whereby an airline benefits financially at the expense of others.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 38):
The name might be different but the principle is the same - a legal governmental method whereby an airline benefits financially at the expense of others.

The very fact you are able to explain how US3 enjoyed a non-standard benefit shows transparency in the system.

Moving losses to different bucket at family dinner table to keep one entity's image squeaky clean???
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 382
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 39):
The very fact you are able to explain how US3 enjoyed a non-standard benefit shows transparency in the system.

Do you agree that 'the system' gives an unfair advantage over airlines that are unable to declare bankruptcy?
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 40):
Do you agree that 'the system' gives an unfair advantage over airlines that are unable to declare bankruptcy?

Yes, it is an unfair advantage. Every business in any country has couple of unfair advantages.

Issue with ME3, industry is vertically integrated to

1) Enjoy "lot of unfair advantages" permanently
2) Remove any real/perceived disadvantages on a "daily basis" as they arise

No one else rigged the system to this extent.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 382
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 41):
Yes, it is an unfair advantage. Every business in any country has couple of unfair advantages.

So now we should change the dynmics of the whole ME3 and US3 argument to discover who benefits more from unfair advantages; as we have shown that both sides have an unfair advantage.

Finally we understand that we are comparing apples with apples and we only need to see which are more rotten.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 42):
So now we should change the dynmics of the whole ME3 and US3 argument to discover who benefits more from unfair advantages; as we have shown that both sides have an unfair advantage.

UAE/Qatar can review US3 financials and show which benefits violate Open Skies agreement.

Like H.E.AAB said "equity" even by government is not a "subsidy".

In the process of creating an illusion of a "well run business", if equity is hidden as something else, its a problem.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1577
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:22 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 4):
Many complain about the demeanor of U.S. crews vs those of the ME3 and Asian carriers and there is some merit there but part of that stems from years of having to continually try overcome the lack of and reduction of amenities and services that the U.S. airlines provide

A lot of that demeanor comes from a shocking increase in abuse from passengers as well.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 15):
The airlines in the USA are being recognized more and more by smart investors. The past 2 years I believe they have been the top performing industry. DL has been leading the way transforming the industry to focus on profits as opposed to being a public service

Has the focus on immediate profits prevented them from making long term investments in markets? Traditionally, companies (not just airlines) were willing to "invest" in markets and endure losses over the short term in order to build relationships with exceptional growth potential. Now, many companies are only willing to milk mature markets and complain when others are rewarded for taking risks.
 
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enilria
Posts: 9582
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 1):
DL never operated flights from Seattle to India. I believe it has only ever been non-stop from ATL then JFK or via AMS. The article was complete with typos and errors about the number of international flights from SEA.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
The article doesn't say they used to, it says they (allegedly) would if it were not for the ME3.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Delta would *not* be flying direct SEA to India.

DL would never fly long-haul to India.

If the ME3 didn't exist then the Indian carriers would be much, much bigger and would be flying all over the USA. BTW, who provides endless financial support to Air India? Anybody? Any guesses?

You know what a great solution would be? All foreign airlines should be banned so that the Big 3 U.S. carriers can control capacity throughout the whole world. Only then will there be safe and financially justifiable service levels.  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):

Funny Delta complains about Exim, yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.

Exactly
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17388
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RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting Enilria (Reply 45):
Exactly

Apart from the European part.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
FlyDeltaJetsATL
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:39 am

RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting Enilria (Reply 45):
DL would never fly long-haul to India.

Never?

ATL-India would be the kind of mission that the DL 777-200LR would enjoy.

I doubt is it likey, but I wouldn't say never.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8229
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 4):
I might also take DL more seriously if they, and many other U.S. carriers, didn't receive subsidies themselves in the form of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is what allowed them shed many unnecessary costs and restructure into the powerhouses they are now.

Bankruptcy is not a form of subsidy in ANY way.

Quoting catiii (Reply 7):
The irony of this is a few year ago, DL was complaining that India didn't workable them because Air India and Jet got 777 EXIM financing...funny how the reasoning has changed.

Changed? The reasoning is EXACTLY the same!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Funny Delta complains about Exim, yet very happily is the beneficiary of European, Brazilian and Canadian export credits and financing on its fleet.

European, no, as said before. Brazilian and Canadian - yes, but it's a small threat to their companies as you don't have carriers from all over the globe flying CRJs and ERJs to the USA.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

RE: Delta Says No India B/c Of ME3

Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 32):
Just looking at NYC-BOM, UA is slightly more expensive on the dates I looked with a non-stop, but I would much rather pay less and fly EK. Now if they were all the same, I would probably choose DL over AMS or AA over LHR for mileage reasons, but that is just me.

Very interesting point you raise here. You wouldn't choose DL or AA for quality but for mileage if the prices were the same. The same sentiment as EK, compete with your product and not by trying to change the rules.

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