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Moose135
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 48):
LOL there were no changes in his lifestyle other that his wife of thirty years was in the process of moving out.

Do you have a source for that? I see it get thrown around here, but haven't seen it from any independent source.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Kaiarahi
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 48):

LOL there were no changes in his lifestyle other that his wife of thirty years was in the process of moving out.

Forgive me if I prefer the word of an investigative team composed of 8 agencies, including NTSB, AAIB, ATSB, BEA, over your unattributed allegation.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 48):
I'm done with responding to your posts

Of course you are. The truth is inconvenient.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting jawake (Reply 43):
For sake of discussion, let's assume the plane is in the ocean somewhere. What scenario(s) would allow the plane to leave nothing floating on the surface of the ocean?

For the sake of argument, it would have to be a very lucky and well done ditching, with the plane sinking intact.

In reality, we do not need this scenario. The plane could have cartwheeled in and broken into 500 pieces, and we would not necessarily find any debris.

The ocean is vast. The pieces are small. There was plenty of time for debris to sink or disperse very widely before anyone looked in that area.

We can also consider the type of impact with regard to finding debris on the bottom with sonar.

Obviously if the 777 is largely intact, it will be readily recognized on the sea floor.

If it is in 500 very small pieces, that scattered on their way down to the sea floor, it's a more difficult task to identify the plane.

If we look to AF447, and consider the way that it impacted the water, and the way it looked on the sea floor, we can perhaps get some ideas to compare/contrast with the way MH370 may have impacted the water.

[Edited 2015-03-10 09:47:03]

[Edited 2015-03-10 09:47:54]
 
David L
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 40):
A statement included in a document which limits the scope of the document, as in this case limiting it to the purposes of airline safety and specifically excluding it from determination of guilt or fault is a disclaimer. I can't imagine why you would want to argue about that.

And once again you've completely bypassed the point to play the "victim" card. You expressed doubt that the named contributors played any part in producing the report and that they are solely reliant on Hishammuddin for any data. I told you why I think that's ridiculous. You've also failed to acknowledge that your "disclaimer" appears in all accident reports, contrary to your suggestion that its presence in this report is significant.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 40):
Let alone use it for an excuse to throw insults around.

   I really wish you'd give it a rest with these bogus "insult" claims. A counter to an argument is not an insult.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 50):
Do you have a source for that?

The story - from an annamed source - first appeared in the Daily Mail, probably in between articles such as "Polish immigrants raped my poodle" and "Asparagus cancer threat hits house prices."

It upset Zaharie's daughter enough to post this on Facebook:

Quote:
Dear Daily Mail, You should consider making movies since you are so good at making up stories and scripts out of thin air. May god have mercy on your souls. You can bet your ass I will not forgive you,
http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-...eport-2014033#sthash.VIRgyTDS.dpuf

Which is a reminder that the guy being accused of mass murder on here has family who are suffering too.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
exfss
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 54):
Which is a reminder that the guy being accused of mass murder on here has family who are suffering too.

True.
This has become a trial for a mass murder with dailynews trash article as back up for proof...
I wish it come back to be a place of discussion where ideas and questions are never considered stupids...
No question is stupid.Only answers can be.
 
jawake
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 52):
For the sake of argument, it would have to be a very lucky and well done ditching, with the plane sinking intact.

In reality, we do not need this scenario. The plane could have cartwheeled in and broken into 500 pieces, and we would not necessarily find any debris.

Thanks for the reply. So we think there is debris, but either it has sunk, or is too small to find at the moment. But there is debris, we just haven't found it yet.

That answers my question. It seems unlikely then that the plane is 100% intact at the bottom of the ocean.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 53):
And once again you've completely bypassed the point to play the "victim" card.

If you were to learn how to converse like a professional adult and stop including invective with your posts, as in this case: Not for the first time, you've chosen to play word games, I'll stop mentioning your rude behavior. This is just a petty disagreement about the use of the word "disclaimer" that for some reason you object to.

Also if you would desist from your recent habit of restating my words in a manner that injects things I never said, and then arguing against your words, not mine, I would probably stop protesting your posting style. You (obviously intentionally) twist my words in this sentence of yours:

Quoting David L (Reply 53):
You've also failed to acknowledge that your "disclaimer" appears in all accident reports, contrary to your suggestion that its presence in this report is significant.

I never claimed that the mentioned disclaimer was particularly important I just mentioned that it existed. This whole petty argument began out of this post I made responding to Finn350:

Quote:
tailskid Reply 260 part 75

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 259):
Yes, there most likely exists information that the Team has chosen not to disclose


Exactly, this is the disclaimer covering that: "The sole objective of the investigation is the prevention of future accidents or incidents" so they (or Hishammuddin) is free to not provide any information that in his or theirs eyes has no contribution to the prevention of future accidents. There's a lot of wiggle room in that.

So this report should be taken for what it is, rather than as an all inclusive summary of the fate of MH370.

For sure I didn't try to imply that it was unique to this accident report. You're just inventing an argument out of thin air.

[Edited 2015-03-10 10:24:02]
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:32 pm

Seriously, I believe this site needs a stricter moderation policy. One member has chosen to hijack the entire series of threads for his own purpose, with arguments that do not hold logic, and we are letting him. Why? And now, for once, we have reasonable things to discuss. The report is very interesting. Still only one third through it myself. Why do not we discuss the report, rather than try to argue with a troll?
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 54):
The story - from an annamed source - first appeared in the Daily Mail, probably in between articles such as "Polish immigrants raped my poodle" and "Asparagus cancer threat hits house prices."

It upset Zaharie's daughter enough to post this on Facebook:

You're mixing two issues, one is the divorce story and the other is the Mirror story about statements that the daughter supposedly said. We have to accept the daughter's denial of that story so that one is a dead issue.

But the divorce story was carried by much of the media and I don't know what journalist or journalists came up with the story, but it would be a dangerous story for any journalist to stand behind because they would only have word of mouth to verify their story, so they could end up with no defense for a lawsuit by the family on the basis of slander and invasion of privacy.

I believe the divorce story has substance, you can believe what you want.
 
David L
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 58):

You're right. Time to click the "Simulate Ignore User" button.   
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 49):
This is not true.
She was NOT moving out at all.
Stop reading tabloid...

Yes indeed! I guess he doesn't want to read anything that doesn't suit his theory...  
If he got it from the Daily Mail, and the subsequent media frenzy, the daughter was angry at Daily Mail misquoting her.
The brother in law (yes, the wife's brother) has said the marriage was fine...
The sister has recently said the "marriage about to end" story as rubbish... Plus I read somewhere he drove to the airport with his car and his wife... which would be so different than...
Quoting a "source close to the pilot's family", it said Mr Zaharie's wife Faizah Khanum Mustafa Khan told investigators that he stopped speaking to her in the weeks before the flight and "retreated into a shell".

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 54):
Which is a reminder that the guy being accused of mass murder on here has family who are suffering too.

Tailskid, his sister has asked you (and "the captain did it crowd) to stop blaming him...  http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...06/MH370-Zaharie-sister-statement/
or
http://www.themalaysiantimes.com.my/...ight-to-blame-capt-zaharie-sister/

And yeah, as to what the daughter said... claimed to be:
Ms Aishah was quoted as saying: "He wasn't the father I knew. He seemed disturbed and lost in a world of his own."
Tailskid would probably just say, "can't be verified"... Sad that he trusts the Daily Mail more  

I guess, these are just "inconvenience" to the "Captain did it theory" and he'll just say, "family members aren't objective in this matter"  
Quoting exfss (Reply 55):
I wish it come back to be a place of discussion where ideas and questions are never considered stupids...

Oh you mean back in the days when discussing possibilities other than "the captain did it" wasn't bombarded with obfuscation?   That was a while back...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 58):
Seriously, I believe this site needs a stricter moderation policy.

This is not the first time that someone who was losing an argument called for censorship of the other guy.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 61):
Tailskid, his sister has asked you (and "the captain did it crowd) to stop blaming him..

So here you are beating a dead horse as if you were actually part of any debate. I already conceded that the daughter's quotes are unsustainable in post #151 part 75 and post 55 right above you.

BTW have you any comment on post #116 part 75 or do you just limit your debating to personal attacks?
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 54):
The story - from an annamed source - first appeared in the Daily Mail, probably in between articles such as "Polish immigrants raped my poodle" and "Asparagus cancer threat hits house prices."

Love_it.  
Quoting tailskid (Reply 59):
you can believe what you want.

There's the ironic quote of the day.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 61):
Quoting a "source close to the pilot's family", it said Mr Zaharie's wife Faizah Khanum Mustafa Khan told investigators that he stopped speaking to her in the weeks before the flight and "retreated into a shell".

They call that news. I call that marriage.   Well, there's those times.... haha

Quoting tailskid (Reply 62):
This is not the first time that someone who was losing an argument called for censorship of the other guy.

It's not because anyone is "losing an argument" - what's to lose? It's because it just gets nauseating. It isn't just this thread. Some posters seem to make a career out of hijacking one topic and repeating their points ad nauseum. I doubt anyone really wants that kind of censorship on this forum. We just want some people to shut up for awhile so that we can see what direction the topic can go without having to argue over every point.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:36 pm

If I am correct, the current priority search area relies on the basis that there were no control inputs after fuel exhaustion? How would this affect the search area? If there were control movements and the aircraft glided to impact the radius of engine flame out to impact would be much larger than an uncontrolled descent.

For those asking about the debris, with no control inputs the aircraft would most likely develop into a spin/spiral due to an uneven descent profile. If it wasn't controlled it would be unlikely that it didnt disintegrate or break up into many pieces on impact.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 64):
We just want some people to shut up for awhile so that we can see what direction the topic can go without having to argue over every point.

Then may I suggest that you post on the MH370 topic instead of continuing the personal attacks on the poster that you disagree with?

You could comment on the flight path that I presented in post 116 part 75, which has nothing to do with saying who was flying the plane. It just summarizes what is known about what path the plane took for the first hour or so after the turnaround.

Or you could tell us what you think happened, but by now, a year later, you should be able to do it in some detail rather than in vague generalizations.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 66):
Or you could tell us what you think happened, but by now, a year later, you should be able to do it in some detail rather than in vague generalizations.

What can I say that 100 people have not said already? This thread is no different than any other where there is no news: It just becomes a free-for-all for pet theories, personal biases, and seasoned professionals all lumped together. I know who I choose to listen to because they are not saying "This is what happened", they are explaining the facts and letting the rest play out from there.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 66):
instead of continuing the personal attacks on the poster that you disagree with?

You mean like calling people high-schooler's?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 67):
What can I say that 100 people have not said already?

Why do you think so many people here, yourself included, are absolutely unwilling to discuss the known information available so that we can all agree on the flight path the plane took for the first hour (and until it reached the first Inmarsat ping ring)?

To me, it appears that these people really don't want to know what actually happened on March 7-8th 2014. Why else would they avoid discussing known information?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 67):
You mean like calling people high-schooler's?

Mature adults don't preface their statements with elaborate attempts at clever insults, as do some teen agers. My comment there merely pointed out the social level some of the posters here are communicating on.
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
Why do you think so many people here, yourself included, are absolutely unwilling to discuss the known information available so that we can all agree on the flight path the plane took for the first hour (and until it reached the first Inmarsat ping ring)?To me, it appears that these people really don't want to know what actually happened on March 7-8th 2014. Why else would they avoid discussing known information?

Most people agree on the flight path the aircraft took. Only a few believe that it took a different route, crashed there and then, data was falsified etc.

Where the disagreement lies is the nature of the accident and what led to the disappearance.

Remember, even if the aircraft is found in the search area, there will always be some that say it's a cover up, it was placed there etc.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
Why do you think so many people here, yourself included, are absolutely unwilling to discuss the known information available so that we can all agree on the flight path the plane took for the first hour (and until it reached the first Inmarsat ping ring)?

For me, it's because I have nothing to add to that. You do realize, though, that there are still people with dissenting opinions on the flight path, even though they are mostly staying silent here now.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
To me, it appears that these people really don't want to know what actually happened on March 7-8th 2014. Why else would they avoid discussing known information?

That may be a false characterization, but I respect that that might be how you see it.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
Mature adults don't preface their statements with elaborate attempts at clever insults, as do some teen agers.

Isn't that exactly what this sentence is though?

Anyhow, these are clearly your threads of passion, and I honestly just stopped in after hearing of the report being released. I'm happy to concede the floor to you.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 63):
So here you are beating a dead horse as if you were actually part of any debate. I already conceded that the daughter's quotes are unsustainable in post #151 part 75 and post 55 right above you.

So, do you have the divorce papers as evidence? Or do you take it from Daily Mail and the media frenzy that followed it?  
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:47 pm

Can we all perhaps just agree to completely ignore one poster who appears, for whatever reason, to have immunity from the moderators?

I'm frankly tired of being accused of being a liar whenever I post excerpts from Annex 13, or the report in which 8 reputable investigative agencies participated, which do not support that poster's lynching agenda.

Please, everyone, let's agree to ignore him. Otherwise, we're all participating in the lynching.

[Edited 2015-03-10 14:35:49]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
awthompson
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting jawake (Reply 43):

Sorry, if this has been discussed before, but I have long been curious about this question.

For sake of discussion, let's assume the plane is in the ocean somewhere. What scenario(s) would allow the plane to leave nothing floating on the surface of the ocean?

Every time I think about this, I can't see how the plane could be at the bottom of the ocean and not leave a seat cushion or some part floating on the surface. It doesn't seem possible. But I am not that smart, so maybe someone here could explain how that is possible. Or maybe it isn't and we just haven't found the debris yet.

We did have a discussion some threads back on this point. Two possibilities:

1. A controlled ditching while there was still power, which had some level of success, ie, the fuselage stayed reasonably intact and did not eject many floating objects before sinking. We don't have many 777 crashes on which to judge the strength of the fuselage in an impact other than the SFO Asiana crash. When I watch the video of that crash and see the plane do a cartwheel from wing tip to wing tip on solid ground with the fuselage staying largely intact and protecting its occupants, I can personally easily believe that it may withstand a carefully executed ditching in certain conditions.

2. A very high speed controlled dive into the ocean resulting in almost complete annihilation of the aircraft with only tiny pieces off debris left floating and little to see on the ocean bed. If you find this possibility hard to accept, look at SR111 and imagine double that speed or even faster.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 70):
You do realize, though, that there are still people with dissenting opinions on the flight path, even though they are mostly staying silent here now.

No, I don't know that. I'm the only one here who has discussed the fligh path in any detail and maybe the only one to have discussed the flight path at all, with the exception of people who choose to ignore that the plane was seen turning around and flying into the Malacca Strait by radars from: Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, (all these nations are on record as having seen the plane during or after the turnaround.) So I don't consider the people who dismiss these radar reports as serious posters.

Again, I believe myself to be the only poster here who has put any effort into exploring the actual flight path of MH370, at least in the last eight or ten months, after a lot of new information has become available. There may have been some early speculative guesses, I'm not sure.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 74):
I'm the only one here who has discussed the fligh path in any detail and maybe the only one to have discussed the flight path at all,

The only one? Are you WarrenPlatts then? He used to discuss the flight paths in detail over here.
Your obsession with "There is a rebel in each and everyone of us--let it out! Don't waste your life on mundane lifestyles. When is it enough?" reminds me of him. Mind you, he sounded a lot more considerate.  
Quoting tailskid (Reply 74):
Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, (all these nations are on record as having seen the plane during or after the turnaround.)

On record? Can you please provide evidence that Indonesia has stated as having seen the airplane on radar? Why is such information not on the interim report?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 75):
On record? Can you please provide evidence that Indonesia has stated as having seen the airplane on radar? Why is such information not on the interim report?

Try page 4 of the report under the heading :Medan Indonesian Radar.

WarrenPlatts hasn't posted here for a long time.
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1951
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 66):
Or you could tell us what you think happened, but by now, a year later, you should be able to do it in some detail rather than in vague generalizations.

This isn't some competition on who was right and wrong on what happened. You may find some perverse pleasure in being right, but this is a tragedy first and foremost. Most mature adults would only want to know what happened to ensure it doesn't happen again to more families. You seem to have forgotten that real people are still suffering through this. This isn't about being right on anet, it is about finding out what happened to bring peace to the families of those that perished and to learn from it.

And if more and more people ignore your posts on this thread you may want to take the hint that you are being too forceful in trying convince people of your opinion. You have said your piece, we know you believe it was the Captain, let it rest now until we get more information.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 76):
Try page 4 of the report under the heading :Medan Indonesian Radar.

Oh... hang on... let's see... You said:

Quoting tailskid (Reply 74):
with the exception of people who choose to ignore that the plane was seen turning around and flying into the Malacca Strait by radars from: Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, (all these nations are on record as having seen the plane during or after the turnaround.)

Seen turning around... and Into the Malacca Strait? On the record as having see the plane during or after the turnaround?
OK... let's see what it says...
d) Medan Indonesia Radar
The Medan ATC Radar has a range of 240 Nm, but for unknown reasons, did not pick up any radar return bearing SSR transponder code A2157 of MH370. The Military however admitted that they picked up MH370 earlier as it was heading towards waypoint IGARI. No other information was made available.

Yeah Indonesia saw it, before the turnaround. We did not see it after IGARI (where it turned towards BITOD but then immediately turned left back towards Kota Bharu)...

Let's add what Vietnam saw in that section (since you used that section as "evidence):
c) Ho Chi Minh Radar and Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast (ADS-B)
The tracking of MH370 was captured by HCM ATCC SSR and ADS-B (located at Conson Island/range 270 Nm) at 1711.59 UTC [0111:59 MYT] as it was heading for waypoint IGARI.
At 1720:33 UTC [0120:33 MYT] MH370 SSR and ADS-B radar position symbols
disappeared from the radar display.


Again, this was seeing it BEFORE it reached IGARI, and they did not see it after the transponders went off, therefore they did not see the turnaround, and did not see it turn towards the Malacca Strait.

In that section, Thailand's Aerothai did not see MH370 after 1721UTC when the turnaround commenced.

Please stop this misinformation...

Quoting tailskid (Reply 74):
So I don't consider the people who dismiss these radar reports as serious posters.

There is no radar reports to dismiss outside that of Malaysia's... anyone who claim that Indonesia saw it after 1721UTC should have their seriousness and claims dismissed (as they can't even read the report).
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
jawake
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:51 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 73):
1. A controlled ditching while there was still power, which had some level of success, ie, the fuselage stayed reasonably intact and did not eject many floating objects before sinking. We don't have many 777 crashes on which to judge the strength of the fuselage in an impact other than the SFO Asiana crash. When I watch the video of that crash and see the plane do a cartwheel from wing tip to wing tip on solid ground with the fuselage staying largely intact and protecting its occupants, I can personally easily believe that it may withstand a carefully executed ditching in certain conditions.

That is an interesting comparison. I guess that could mean that the plane is intact. Similar to that 767 that crashed off the Ethiopian Coast after a failed hijacking. It looked largely intact after the crash.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:08 pm

Been a long time since i posted on this thread. A sad reminder that 76 a.net parts later on this thread that we haven't found a shred of debris. All that we know is that a plane is missing and hundreds of theories on why it is missing. Wonder if any topic on a.net has gotten past 76 parts, this must be a record since 76 parts & 1 year later we are basically back to where we started - 1st post on part 1 !!!
 
JimJupiter
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:38 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 60):
Time to click the "Simulate Ignore User" button.   

  

You guys could really help all those users (and just readers), who come to those threads for a substantiated update on the ongoing search and research, by not giving into the petty squirmishes of a certain other user. This just buries any developments worth reading about under a huge pile of squabble posts (like half the volume of these threads).

Thanks  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting jawake (Reply 79):
That is an interesting comparison. I guess that could mean that the plane is intact. Similar to that 767 that crashed off the Ethiopian Coast after a failed hijacking. It looked largely intact after the crash.

The priority search area is based on the assumption that there was no one manipulating the controls unlike these examples. Without control inputs the aircraft would be unlikely to maintain a stable descent. If there was someone at the controls the aircraft could have glided an extra 100nm+ from its flameout position, which gives a much larger search area which is not being considered by the ATSB report. With an unstable descent without control input the impact would not leave much room for an intact fuselage.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 78):
In that section, Thailand's Aerothai did not see MH370 after 1721UTC when the turnaround commenced.

THAILAND

From an AP report out of Bangkok on (or before) 18 March
Thailand's military said Tuesday that its radar detected a plane that may have been Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just minutes after the jetliner's communications went down, and that it didn't share the information with Malaysia earlier because it wasn't specifically asked for it.

A twisting flight path described Tuesday by Thai air force spokesman Air Vice Marshal Montol Suchookorn took the plane to the Strait of Malacca, which is where Malaysian radar tracked Flight 370 early March 8. But Montol said the Thai military doesn't know whether it detected the same plane. He said the plane never entered Thai airspace and that "The radar signal was infrequent"

VIETNAM
"We informed Malaysia on the day we lost contact with the flight that we noticed the flight turned back west but Malaysia did not respond," Vietnam deputy minister of transport Pham Quy Tieu was quoted as saying by AFP today. http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...d-back-201403#sthash.gA9bngqU.dpuf

Singapore
A Singaporean air traffic surveillance and control unit also picked up the signal that MH370 "made a turn back before it was reported to have climbed 1,000 metres from its original altitude at 10,000 metres"
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...t-tracked-mh370-to-malacca-straits


INDONESIA
"The (Indonesian) Military however admitted that they picked up MH370 earlier as it was heading towards waypoint IGARI. No other information was made available. Earlier an Indonesian statement had said: "aircraft was not detected flying over our territory" which you have referred to yourself.

Let's be real here. The Indonesian Military acknowledged that they say the plane over the South China Sea, or at least on its way to IGARI. The other legs of MH370's flight are closer to the Indonesian Radar than what most of the flight towards IGARI, if they saw it on the way to IGARI they for sure saw it over Butterworth, because that's closer than Kuala Lumpur. If Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore saw it so did Indonesia - but they are being diplomatically correct in not speaking on the record about their neighbor's business when their neighbor wants them to keep quiet.

And here's one I had forgotten about:

CHINA
Aviation sources in China report that radar data suggest a steep and sudden descent of the aircraft, during which the track of the aircraft changed from 024 degrees to 333 degrees.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.china/tWlPSy1iqts
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 76):
Try page 4 of the report under the heading :Medan Indonesian Radar.

I don't understand - we're discussing the four nations (other than Malaysia) having gone "on record as having seen the plane during or after the turnaround" - your words. This means after 17:21:13 UTC - the point at which MH370 turned right then almost immediately left. The portion of the report you refer to actually says the reverse - that the Indonesian military "picked up" the aircraft heading towards IGARI - however "for unknown reasons" the Medan ATC radar did not.

The Vietnamese and Thai radar tracking also end prior to the turn and no mention is made of Singapore radar. I recall you posting quotes that suggested otherwise, but given the level of international oversight I believe you have to take the interim report factual information as gospel. Which means that either:
- Only Malaysian radar tracked MH370 after the turn back
- One or more of Indonesia/Thailand/Vietnam/Singapore are holding back and telling porky pies.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:03 pm

For those that asked about the ULB battery, this is directly from the report:



According to maintenance records, the SSFDR ULB battery expired in December 2012.
There is no evidence to suggest that the SSFDR ULB battery had been replaced before the
expiry date. The SSCVR ULB battery however was replaced, as scheduled, with the next
expiry in June 2014. There is some extra margin in the design to account for battery life
variability and ensure that the unit will meet the minimum requirement. However, once
beyond the expiry date, the ULB effectiveness decreases so it may operate, for a reduced
time period until it finally discharges. While there is a definite possibility that a ULB, will
operate past the expiry date on the device, it is not guaranteed that it will work or that it
would meet the 30-day minimum requirement. There is also limited assurance that the
nature of the signal (characteristics such as frequency and power) will remain within
specification when battery voltage drops below the nominal 30-day level.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 84):
I don't understand

I don't know what more that I can do for you than the above which lists
FOUR COUNTRIES WHO SAID THAT THEY SAW THE PLANE TURN AROUND

That's: Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore and China - then there's Malaysia which makes five.

It's all fact.

And if you want to say that it's not in the report so it can't be true, read the Intro to the report, it says they will use only what they want to use; this has already been discussed above. I gave links to the statements for all these reports.

We can go on like this all day and all night but nothing is going to change; The plane was seen by five or more nations turning back and the last reported sighting was 10 nm past MEKAR which is about 40 nm and four minutes from the first ping ring.

But I'll wait for your next attempt to reverse reality.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 86):
I don't know what more that I can do for you than the above which lists
FOUR COUNTRIES WHO SAID THAT THEY SAW THE PLANE TURN AROUND

That's: Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore and China - then there's Malaysia which makes five.

It's all fact.

Calm down, I was typing that while you were posting - my two fingers don't go that fast. My bad for not hitting refresh.

As for those you listed - the China one is obviously bollocks, the Thai one is by their own admission far from certain, the Viet Nam one is vague - doesn't imply tracking by primary radar - and the Singapore one lacks any source whatsoever.

I don't know what the debate is anyway - I'm not questioning the turn or its location. It's just by overstating how many actors were aware of the manoeuvre, you give the impression of a greater degree of conspiracy and cover up.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 87):
Calm down, I was typing that while you were posting - my two fingers don't go that fast. My bad for not hitting refresh.

As for those you listed - the China one is obviously bollocks, the Thai one is by their own admission far from certain, the Viet Nam one is vague - doesn't imply tracking by primary radar - and the Singapore one lacks any source whatsoever.

I don't know what the debate is anyway - I'm not questioning the turn or its location. It's just by overstating how many actors were aware of the manoeuvre, you give the impression of a greater degree of conspiracy and cover up.

And you still go on and on and on attacking the well documented facts i provided. On China I'll take Aviation herald's word over your trite dismissal. The Thai report was a quote from Air Vice Marshal Montol Suchookorn, I'll take his word over your empty denials anyday. And the Singapore report is sourced by The Malaysian Insider.

If you don't like the fact that all these people and nations kill your attempts to sell northerly tracks or Maldives theories or whatever other nonsense you have in store that's just too bad.

9MMRO turned around near IGARI and flew across the Malaysian peninsula and left radar coverage at 2:22 where four minutes later the Inmarsat satellite provided a predicted location right where we would expect it.

You can quibble whine or twist whatever words you want to, or question any source you want to, but you're not going to change a thing. Why are you challenging what is documented by so many sources?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 87):
I don't know what the debate is anyway - I'm not questioning the turn or its location.

Nobody is. But somebody is equating the turnaround with radar detection in the Malacca straights, which are far from the turnaround - i.e. I turned right out of LHR, so now I must be over CDG.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 83):
Let's be real here.

Whatever you claim. It's NOT in the report right?
Again, stop this misinformation. You claim something is in the report and failed to come up with the goods. A simple "Oh, yeah, sorry, it ain't there" would have been fine, but stonewalled yourself nicely.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 86):
FOUR COUNTRIES WHO SAID THAT THEY SAW THE PLANE TURN AROUND

It's all fact.

All "fact" that is not in the "factual report". Nice try.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 86):
But I'll wait for your next attempt to reverse reality.

I guess we need not wait for yours... As per the evidence in this topic.   

I guess there's no point in going further with this as it is evident you have an agenda and is willing to pursue it perversely.

Quoting baconbutty (Reply 87):
you give the impression of a greater degree of conspiracy and cover up.

He's trying very hard... I think it is now clearly understood that anything that gets in the way of his belief is a conspiracy or a cover up.

Let us continue the discussion without such adamant false assertions or attempts thereof. Tailskid is always welcome to join when he is not trying to reverse reality.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 74):
maybe the only one to have discussed the flight path at all

Obviously not... unless you're WarrenPlatts, then maybe...  
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1590
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:31 am

I would say that the lack of debris really doesn't tell us a whole lot, mainly because no one looked in the area for quite a while.

If searches had begun in the area within a couple of days, then the lack of debris would be more interesting.

It was 10 days before there was any search in the SIO, and there was only 1 airplane searching that day.

Much of the searching consisted of looking at Satellite photos.

It was really 2 weeks before any decent surface search effort for debris was going on.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:34 am

As far as the ULB batteries, it was about 3 weeks, I think, before the search for the pingers began.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 92):
If searches had begun in the area within a couple of days, then the lack of debris would be more interesting.

Accusations of cover-up aside... This is the tragedy!
The incompetence is astounding.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 93):
As far as the ULB batteries, it was about 3 weeks, I think, before the search for the pingers began.

That leaves it.... 1 week to search relying on the beacon.

From the 1st month, it was sadly obvious that it would take a long time and need a lot of money to find it. We're now seeing it for real...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 92):
I would say that the lack of debris really doesn't tell us a whole lot, mainly because no one looked in the area for quite a while.

That, and the crash occurred deep inside the Indian Ocean Gyre. That means ocean currents will not carry whatever floating debris might remain on the surface towards any shore. Stuff stays out there for years, going around in a giant diffuse patch of garbage. That's why no seat cushions have washed up on any beach, and most likely won't ever. The idea that something from MH370 is bound to wash up eventually is mistaken.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 94):
That leaves it.... 1 week to search relying on the beacon.

If you are actually looking in the right area of the SIO for that 1 week...

[Edited 2015-03-10 20:45:38]
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 95):
That means ocean currents will not carry whatever floating debris might remain on the surface towards any shore. Stuff stays out there for years, going around in a giant diffuse patch of garbage.

Where there's garbage floating in the sea, there's fish. Where there's smaller fish there's bigger fish. And fishermen know that. So, there might be a chance that one day someone will find something.
 
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777Jet
Topic Author
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 95):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 92):
I would say that the lack of debris really doesn't tell us a whole lot, mainly because no one looked in the area for quite a while.

That, and the crash occurred deep inside the Indian Ocean Gyre. That means ocean currents will not carry whatever floating debris might remain on the surface towards any shore. Stuff stays out there for years, going around in a giant diffuse patch of garbage. That's why no seat cushions have washed up on any beach, and most likely won't ever. The idea that something from MH370 is bound to wash up eventually is mistaken.

  

Which is exactly why I believe that the MAS branded towelette that was found on a WA beach last July (link to article below) was most likely not from MH370 but rather placed there by somebody - possibly as a very cruel hoax...

Quoting benjjk (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...plane/story-fnizu68q-1227256227487

In July last year a MAS branded towelette was apparently found on a West Australian beach. It is yet to be confirmed that it belonged to MH370, so be skeptical, but this could be an interesting find.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
AR385
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:46 am

I talked to a very good friend of mine who is a systems engineer. Thanks to me he is been following this MH thing very close. I explained to him the findings released on Sunday and the "System Redundancy" mantra that says how things cannot fail in the way some allege failed on MH370.

As far as redundancy, he tells me that in his long career he has come across many systems that were "redundant" and independent but there was one failure scenario that nobody thought could occur that sent all that redundancy to theory only and yes, systems failed in ways that were thought impossible. So there´s that. In essence he explained to me how "reudndancy", "fail safe" and "independent", when it comes to systems can be relative.

So, at this point, nothing really fits. In my opinion. No theory on its own can explain what happened. I do hope this plane is found and things solved.
 
art
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 76

Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:55 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 5):
Quoting benjjk (Reply 2):In July last year a MAS branded towelette was apparently found on a West Australian beach. It is yet to be confirmed that it belonged to MH370, so be skeptical, but this could be an interesting find.

It could have been from MH370. It could also be a stunt by somebody who wants a bit of attention. Who really knows.

I don't see how this can even be tentatively linked to MH370 without some kind of marker and audit trail eg the towelette was in packaging showing a batch number and records were kept of when MH started using items from that batch.

Assuming that the towelette was really located and neither discarded by someone nor intentionally planted there, it seems extremely unlikely to me that of the thousands of small pieces of debris that would expected from a crash, only one was washed up on that beach. Of course, if nobody searched for further items, that would explain a sole item of interest being found.

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