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lesfalls
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Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:26 pm

What is the possibility of Air Greenland restarting service to the U.S.? It would be amazing to see them here at JFK? What do you guys think?
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B4REAL
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:51 pm

If any US carrier would try it, it'd be DL at JFK but I really can't see that happening. Though they could do a 737 to UAK, even if only 2-3x weekly. Greenland to Europe is rather limited as it is, given that Greenland is a protectorate (?) of Denmark. I'd think there'd be more service to Europe. If I read right, the whole of Greenland doesn't even have more than 60,000 people. Absent of a tourism industry, El Rickatron (me) doesn't see it happening.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:02 pm

Air Greenland flew a B757-200 into Baltimore seasonally several years ago, but lost a huge amount of money for an airline of their size, so pulled the flights.

If anything, I see a Canadian carrier taking this up with a 737 Combi. With mineral exploration increasing and seafood aplenty, I would expect the cargo market to be as lucrative as the passenger market.


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lesfalls
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 1):

Tourism is growing though and big oils companies have plans to open plants in Greenland which can cause a lot of extra traffic.
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 3):
Tourism is growing though and big oils companies have plans to open plants in Greenland which can cause a lot of extra traffic.

It would all depend if those plans come to reality.

Given the nature of the oil prices at the moment, it may delay any plans those companies had. Tourism is also a driver of demand, but the yields to fill seats are crucial.

Given that they did experiment with BWI flights, and as PlymSpotter pointed out they were not exactly a success, it will likely take a substantial increase in market fundamentals for them to try again.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):

Air Greenland did a big mistake on starting BWI and should have started to a destination like JFK which has more demand. I do wonder why though they wanted to start BWI?
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 5):
Air Greenland did a big mistake on starting BWI and should have started to a destination like JFK which has more demand. I do wonder why though they wanted to start BWI?

I would have to agree that it does appear strange that a market like NYC (JFK/EWR) wasn't attempted first.

It must have got a significantly better deal and some market dynamics of the BWI area must have appealed to it.
 
greenjet
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:32 am

Air Mobility Command operates or used to operate flights out of BWI to Greenland (presumably primarily to Thule?). Not sure if there's any link between that and Air Greenland's ops though.
 
smokeybandit
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:51 am

AMC still carts a 757 to Thule every week or so from BWI.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:40 am

Quoting greenjet (Reply 7):
Air Mobility Command operates or used to operate flights out of BWI to Greenland (presumably primarily to Thule?). Not sure if there's any link between that and Air Greenland's ops though.

Sure there is a link.

In 2003 SAS quit serving the CPH-SFJ route. That made Air Greenland's B757 too small, so they got an A332 for that route.

Same year Air Greenland won a contract with USAF to serve US Air Base Thule from BWI. For some months they tried to haul passengers on SFJ-BWI instead of flying empty ferry flights, but it didn't work out.

The B757 was put to some other work, for instance a short while Akureyri, Iceland to CPH, and sometimes a little European charter work. But in 2011 the plane was sold.

What little demand there is beyond the SFJ-CPH shuttle with A332, that is easily done with seasonal Dash-8-100/-200 from nearby Iceland.

Had it not been for the Air Mobility Command contract, then Air Greenland would never have landed at BWI.

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 3):
Tourism is growing though and big oils companies have plans to open plants in Greenland which can cause a lot of extra traffic.

Tourism is insignificant and isn't really growing. Oil dreams have been going on for decades. If something happens in 10-20-30 years, then it means special charter flights, not new sheduled routes.

That A332 is THE lifeline for that tiny country. Transport in and to Greenland isn't anything like commercial business.

Air Greenland is owned by the Greenland state, Danish state, and SAS (SAS is trying to devest).

Transport is heavily subsidized, oherwise settlement with modern lifestyle in Greenland would be next to impossible. It is organized by Royal Greenland Trading, a state owned company in Aalborg, Denmark.

The Air Greenland A332 is to very high degree a combined cargo and ambulance plane. It picks up cargo in Aalborg and ferries people to/from hospital in Copenhagen, when they suffer anything worse than a broken arm.

Have a look at a modern hospital, and all those billions invested in all sorts of scanners. They don't exist in Greenland. They exist nowhere when there are only 50,000 people to serve, In Greenland they have their A332 instead. Had it been for just ordinary business and leisure travel, then it would have been much too much plane.

[Edited 2015-03-10 20:10:28]
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26point2
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:51 am

There's a scene.in the movie Secret Life of a Walter Mitty where the Air Greenland A332 carries only 2 pax to Greenland. Perhaps not so far fetched?
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 10):
There's a scene.in the movie Secret Life of a Walter Mitty where the Air Greenland A332 carries only 2 pax to Greenland. Perhaps not so far fetched?

I haven't seen that movie, but I'm pretty sure that the movie didn't show the belly containers. The plane might have been loaded to the limit.

On the other hand, a while ago I happened to watch that plane dock at its gate at CPH on an ordinary Wednesday evening. I counted nineteen wheelchairs waiting for it at the gate.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:16 am

Ive always found it strange that in order to get to Greenland you have to go to Europe first.

Does FI fly to Greenland? I'd be amazed if they didnt

I could see AC or AC rouge on an A319 or A320 from YYZ or YUL working out too
 
26point2
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:51 am

Greenland: The only part of N. America that you can't get to from N. America.
 
ipodguy7
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:04 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):

Greenland: The only part of N. America that you can't get to from N. America.

Not true, Air Greenland flies a seasonal GOH-YFB (Iqaluit) service on Dash 8's during the summer.
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classicjets
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):
Greenland: The only part of N. America that you can't get to from N. America

Isn't there seasonal Air Greenland service from Nuuk to Iqaluit?
 
bjorn14
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 12):
Does FI fly to Greenland? I'd be amazed if they didnt

Be amazed. They don't. It's hard to fill a 757 in that market. Greenland has virtually no tourist infrastructure.
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lesfalls
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 14):

They might not be operating it this summer but I know the route had quite a lot of passengers.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 10):

Amazingly it is the only movie that ever Showed Air Greenland.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):

Icelandic airways does and they codeshare on the route.
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bjorn14
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 17):
Icelandic airways does and they codeshare on the route.

GL flies to KEF but FI does not fly to Greenland.
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icelander
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:12 pm

FI don't fly to Greenland, but their sister airline, Air Iceland do, with Dash 8s and Fokker 50s. Also, a partner airline in the north of Iceland (Norlandair) fly regular flights between Iceland and Greenland.
 
Thule
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Thread starter):
What is the possibility of Air Greenland restarting service to the U.S.?

Zero right now, and maybe, if they're lucky, slightly more than zero in the next decade or two.

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 5):
Air Greenland did a big mistake on starting BWI and should have started to a destination like JFK which has more demand. I do wonder why though they wanted to start BWI?

Judging from how other low-cost airlines like NK and Iceland's WOW Air set up at BWI, I'd guess that BWI is simply cheaper to operate out of, but is still part of a major east coast metro area that's easy to connect to/from.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
Sure there is a link.

Thanks for this and everything else, Preben - always glad to see your actual facts and experience whenever the yearly Greenland speculation thread pops up.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):
Greenland: The only part of N. America that you can't get to from N. America.

The US Air National Guard 109th Airlift Wing flies C-130s from SCH-SFJ and onwards to Thule and Summit all the time during the summer, often several times a week. I've been on these flights both ways, it's pretty fun, definitely a better experience than flying UA any day. If you're ever in SFJ in the summer you'll see several of their aircraft parked there, and an entire barrack of National Guard troops rotating through. I bring this up because the majority of the passengers on these flights are civilian scientists and contractors. It's cheaper for the US government to put people on these flights rather than paying the $2000+ in commercial airfare to go through KEF/RKV or CPH, since it all comes out of the same government money bucket.

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 14):
Not true, Air Greenland flies a seasonal GOH-YFB (Iqaluit) service on Dash 8's during the summer.

This route has been discontinued for this summer due to low demand: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...cheduled-flights-in-2015-1.2985006

The high-yielding mining traffic didn't fill the plane, and neither did exchanges between the Greenland-Nunavut governments. If you're a huge mining company working in the Arctic, I'm sure you could charter the plane if you really need it!

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
Greenland has virtually no tourist infrastructure.

Visit Greenland would like to have a word with you: http://www.greenland.com/en/

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 18):
GL flies to KEF but FI does not fly to Greenland.

To indulge the A.net nitpickers: NY (Air Iceland, a subsidiary of Icelandair) flies from RKV to GOH, JAV, UAK, and KUS on a several times a week or seasonal basis depending on the route. (GOH is year-round). A Norlandair Twin Otter operated through NY flies from AEY-CNP on an irregular basis, but that might be old information.


I know one scientist from the BOS area who flew BOS-KEF on FI then RKV-JAV to her field site in JAV the same morning, less than 12 hours travel time. Of course you can only do that kind of thing in the high season!
 
LH707330
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
Transport is heavily subsidized, oherwise settlement with modern lifestyle in Greenland would be next to impossible. It is organized by Royal Greenland Trading, a state owned company in Aalborg, Denmark.

So why do people want to live there then? It's like the Alaska subsidy where people get paid to live in the snow, makes no sense to me.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
The Air Greenland A332 is to very high degree a combined cargo and ambulance plane. It picks up cargo in Aalborg and ferries people to/from hospital in Copenhagen, when they suffer anything worse than a broken arm.

Can it carry enough fish? 
 
N415XJ
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
That A332 is THE lifeline for that tiny country.

Why do they only have one, then? If something happens to it or it needs significant down time due to maitenence, would they just borrow an A330 from SAS? Can SAS' -300s fly in to Kangerlussuaq? Have they ever had to deal with problems liek this in the past?
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:21 pm

My guess is most travelers would take FI to KEF, then Air Iceland from REK to one of the 5 or so cities on Greenland that they fly to.

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larshjort
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 21):

So why do people want to live there then? It's like the Alaska subsidy where people get paid to live in the snow, makes no sense to me.

because it is where they were born and their families have lived for centuries.

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lesfalls
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting Thule (Reply 20):

2 things:
1. In that article on Air Greenland stopping its service to Iqualit it said that they might restart the route in 2016 if the market improves so their is still a possibility that they will operate it again.
2.Since your telling me that you go to Greenland aboard a U.S. government operated aircraft this means that there is demand for a U.S.-Greenland but how often do these flights operate a week?

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 22):

They have been leasing a 737 from Jettime and an A320 from Atlantic airways on some occasion during the low season to operate its Narsaq(sorry if I wrote it wrong) to cophenagen service so they would probably one of theses aircraft to cover for it.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 21):
So why do people want to live there then?

If you ask them, they will tell you that it is the best place on planet Earth.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 21):
It's like the Alaska subsidy where people get paid to live in the snow, makes no sense to me.

Makes no *economic* sense, I guess you mean. But people living in a free country may chose themselves where to live. Then the government makes sure that you can have a safe and comfortable lifestyle wherever you choose to live.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 21):
Can it carry enough fish?

The Air Greenland A332 doesn't carry fish. Only fresh fish has to go by air. Scandinavia has plenty of fresh fish, We export fish to the whole world.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 22):
Why do they only have one, then? If something happens to it or it needs significant down time due to maitenence, would they just borrow an A330 from SAS? Can SAS' -300s fly in to Kangerlussuaq? Have they ever had to deal with problems liek this in the past?

SAS owns 25% of Air Greenland (Danish and Greenland states shares the rest, 37.5% each). I am pretty sure that for operations, crew training and scheduling, maintenance etc. that A332 is more or less considered part of the SAS fleet.

When the A332 is in for heavy maintenance, then a SAS plane takes over, not necessarily an A333, maybe an A320 or A340 or whatever they have to spare. Maybe an A320 will have to make a tech stop at KEF, then so be it.
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lesfalls
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 26):

The A320 I think can operate flights from Denmark to Greenland direct. I saw them use a Atlantic airways (airline from the Faroese islands) A320 on the route once.

[Edited 2015-03-11 18:36:34]
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LH707330
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:35 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 26):
Makes no *economic* sense, I guess you mean. But people living in a free country may chose themselves where to live. Then the government makes sure that you can have a safe and comfortable lifestyle wherever you choose to live.

Yeah I suppose, though even then I don't see the appeal in living in the snow. I don't think it's really the government's business to subsidize expensive and impractical when there are more pressing problems, but that's for an O/T thread.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 26):
The Air Greenland A332 doesn't carry fish. Only fresh fish has to go by air. Scandinavia has plenty of fresh fish, We export fish to the whole world.

That was a joke from one of the 757 replacement threads, hence the smiley.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Possible Air Greenland US Service?

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:12 pm

One problem is a quarter of Greenlanders live in and around Nuuk and GOH cannot truly handle international jet flights.

Quoting Thule (Reply 20):
Visit Greenland would like to have a word with you:

Less than a 1,000 beds in the whole country. Yeah right.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein

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