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CALTECH
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:07 am

Was hoping that this would be one aspect that would NOT continue after the merger. Damn business school idiots, ruining it. Heard it may happen in Orlando too. They signed that horrible contract, and it is sUAL's Ramp Union that put it up for ratification. Reap the whirlwind now,....

'More layoffs: United Airlines to eliminate hundreds of jobs in Broward, Palm Beach counties'

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflor...irlines-to-eliminate-hundreds.html

[Edited 2015-03-11 18:18:14]
You are here.
 
rta
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:32 am

Are they cutting back service too? How are they going to operate current levels of service if they are getting rid of so many people?
 
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LAXintl
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:32 am

Kinda old news. Initial notice went out in January with stations now transitioning to vendors in May.

UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations (by thegoldenargosy Jan 12 2015 in Civil Aviation)

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
OB1504
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:19 am

United outsourcing MIA as well. 115 jobs to the lowest bidder. http://m.bizjournals.com/southflorid...f-115-workers-at-miami.html?r=full
 
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northwestEWR
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting rta (Reply 1):

Are they cutting back service too? How are they going to operate current levels of service if they are getting rid of so many people?


They're going to do a crappier job and employ more automation. More kiosks, less agents to help. Good luck during IROPS.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
OB1504
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 4):
They're going to do a crappier job and employ more automation. More kiosks, less agents to help. Good luck during IROPS.

And their handling during IROPS sucks already. I keep getting passengers who have the space confirmed but no ticket reissued, or the opposite, where the ticket is fine but the space came back "unable to confirm" and UA sent them anyway. I have to send back at least 50% of the UA pax I get.
 
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IrishAyes
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:53 am

at least they can get a breath of fresh air....and no, that will not come from passing through a UA jetway at ORD   
 
lpdal
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:32 am

The last time I talked with the landside United agents on my way to PWM a few weeks ago, they seemed distressed, and I asked if FLL was going to be outsourced. They confirmed, and said it would be around 2016. Sad...

Well, in FLL, there is a United Club, and those agents are mainline UA employees that I doubt will be replaced. They'll be able to help me with IROPS, not sure about people without Club memberships...Oh well...

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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ramprat74
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United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:36 am

Terrible article is terrible. They say FLL is being outsourced, wrong. MIA, PBI, RSW (BTW), PNS stations are being outsourced. FLL, TPA, MCO are mainline employees.
 
COSPN
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:28 am

FLL and many unprotected stations will go away after one year .. UA wants to get rid of all non hub employees. They have hired some overpaid guy from Skywest and made him a VP to set up a version of DGS for United   the race to the bottom continues .
 
durangomac
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 9):
They have hired some overpaid guy from Skywest and made him a VP to set up a version of DGS for United the race to the bottom continues .

He wasn't hired to create a DGS like company, he was hired to run UAX, one of the other currently employed VPs' is tasked with starting the DGS like company.
 
eaglepower83
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:17 pm

Why don't they just fire all their ops staff except for pilots and flight attendants. Outsource everything. Have vendors supply all labor from ground to check-in to gates to baggage to maintenance to.................
HELL, while we're at it, why don't they just fire all their flying staff as well.
Just move all their pilots and FAs to Republic at 50% less pay, and contract out ALL their flying.

That way all the bean counter geniuses at the big Willie on Whacker can get rid of half their offices, and the ops floors.
And consolidate all management on one or two floors, and just sell tickets and credit cards.
DONE.
Smisek, CEO of the year. Cutting 80% expenses.
Give that man a raise!
  
 
lpdal
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Please don't paint all outsourced employees with a huge "inept" brush. While there are some that are, in fact, inept, such as the Simplicity USA hubris occurring in AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN, some, such as the FLL United Club bartender(s) are polite and give excellent service. The previous bartender in the UA club barely spoke English, so they fired him and got a young woman who not only has a license in bar-tending, but also speaks perfect English AND Spanish, gives excellent service, and makes every effort to make the Club customers satisfied.

That also goes for the [mainline] front desk Club agents, who, in seeing me fly out of FLL on UA and 3M so much, know me well by name. The lounge desk agents are usually the best employees there are on the ground level of things.

As for UA's presence in South Florida, it is dwindling fast... CLE-FLL-CLE and IAD-FLL-IAD are cut or are being cut in only a month or two. On the bright side, UA's largest Southern Florida operation in FLL is ALL mainline 73G/8/9, A319/20, and 757-200/300.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
futureatp
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:55 pm

I really feel for the UA employee's. My time working for a vendor at Sky Harbor in Phoenix I got to know some of the United people really good. This is all pre CO merger by the way... I thought they all were good people. I was real impressed with how they took the time loading the luggage onto an aircraft in very orderly, professional fashion. Not throw it in like I used to at my days at America West. Most were not excited about their job as they have watched the majority of their fellow co workers laid off from downsizing operations at PHX prior to my arrival at the Vendor in 2008. They were in a real catch 22 situation. Stay and hope they weather the storm or go somewhere else and make a fraction of what they are making now. I liked the United people at phoenix enough that, when I had vacation time, I took two separate trips on United simply because I liked them.

I learned a lot about the airline industry alone from the United people at Phoenix. Despite my username I have not flown a plane in almost ten years. I made poor life choices well before I stopped flying that essentially disqualified me from flying an aircraft for hire. My love of airplanes and the airline industry is what led me to spend many years at two companies at PHX. Seeing how employee's were treated by airlines makes loathe the industry.

Seeing what I saw made me hate my job working for a vendor. There was a time what I did, the airlines had their own staff that did it. One of the things that touched me was an encounter I had with a young UA Airbus FO one evening. He was doing his walk around. Handed me his smart phone and asked me to take a picture of him standing next to the aircraft. This was his last flight for United. He said he was being laid off due to more senior 737 pilots moving to the Airbus as the 737s were being removed from the fleet. That is when it hit me. I read the United press release about parking the 737 to save fuel. See, I worked for a fuel vendor. There were days I saw 737-300s on same route same day as an A319. The -300 wasn't leaving with any more fuel that is for sure. But what stood out even more was United was not replacing the -300s with Airbus or new Boeing's (remember, this pre merger). RJ flying was increasing. The only time an RJ is fuel efficient is when you are flying empty seats. The low cost employees are what makes an RJ efficient.

I didn't like being a "low cost employee" as I worked for a vendor, which I lump RJ operators into, so I left the aviation industry all together and it turned out to be the best thing I did. I now am an operations manager for a medical company that ships globally. The fun part of the job is I get to tell CH Robinson who can fly my cargo and who cant. It is all predicated on finding out who has the most mainline employees. I do a lot of travel. My office is 40min from the Kansas City airport. United will never see me on one of their planes. Well, that's about impossible out of KC anyway.

I could go on but I need to get back to work. Mainline employees, watch your back. The ax is coming. Beware of the low cost employee.
 
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Jamake1
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:28 pm

The biggest travesty in all of this is that the collective bargaining agent for United's ground staff, the IAM, negotiated away their own membership base by allowing the company to outsource outstations as part of the joint contract agreement between sub-CO and sub-UA ground staff. Sadly, many of those outstation employees contributed to their own professional demise by ratifying the tentative agreement, which gave United management carte blance to outsource most outstations.

Who in their right mind, would ratify a collective bargaining agreement that eliminated one's own job?
Come fly the sun.
 
tommy767
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Thread starter):
Damn business school idiots, ruining it.

I agree (for once) that business school creates meatheats but in reality It's mostly CO managment moved up from IAH making the majority of decisions. They are to blame for outsourcing.

Quoting CALTECH (Thread starter):
Heard it may happen in Orlando too.

You must be misinformed here. MCO is UA's largest FL station.

Quoting CALTECH (Thread starter):
They signed that horrible contract, and it is sUAL's Ramp Union that put it up for ratification. Reap the whirlwind now,....

Thought you were all about the two sides working together? Wouldn't pin it on UAL's Ramp Station contract. Weren't quite a few CO stations outsourced by 2000-2001 when Expressjet came to life?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
lpdal
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:51 pm

This thread is about South Florida, IE the United stations in FLL, MIA, and PBI. MCO is in central Florida, and isn't part of the colloquial "South Florida". Yes, I know it wasn't stated that MCO was in South Florida, I just wanted to clear up any confusion. When most people think of South Florida, they think of the lower right corner of the state running EYW-MIA-FLL-PBI.

---

Also, as of this writing, FLL is an all mainline operation, while PBI and MIA have UAX contracted carriers serving alongside a highly limited amount of mainline service. In September-October, when CLE-FLL-CLE was going to be cut, they momentarily attempted to fly that route with an ERJ-145 as a last ditch effort, but they couldn't even fill up a 50 seater. When you can't fill up a fifty seater to Florida, especially Fort Lauderdale, which is the fastest growing metro in the USA, the route has no reason for existence.

No idea why IAD-FLL-IAD was cut, I think F9 runs that route now, but I actually, ironically enough, rode the last IAD-FLL flight back in May on a 757-200. I will definitely miss that route.

DCA-FLL-DCA is also served by several airlines at FLL, I guess National is more profitable than Dulles for any number or reasons.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:14 pm

Most of these small line stations probably voted NO on the second TA. When 75% of the votes come from the hubs, these line stations never had a chance. The company had plans to outsource these line stations since the merger. It was Jeff & Co that segregated these stations with ATW and BTW. Most of these sUA stations used cross utilized CS agents to perform CS and ramp. This kept the cost down at these stations. Now you have a small station with co-workers that can only work ramp and can't go up stairs and help out. So they sit around in their breakrooms while they could've been upstairs helping at the ticket counter helping customers.
 
Beatyair
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:25 pm

All you hear out of United is bad service and employee cuts. Never seams to be good news.
 
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malaysia
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 9):
set up a version of DGS for United

better than giving profit to DL or AA
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
UA444
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 17):

Is this why some stations like SMF and SLC will still have mainline above the wing but contractors below?
 
sulley
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:49 pm

Senior employees at the hubs wanted their payout and retro and now everyone is screwed. As I said then, employees only only saw dollar signs when voting.
In thrust we trust!
 
lpdal
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:12 pm

When a station such as FLL is completely outsourced, do the former mainline employees have an opportunity to work at a hub or a nearby larger station, such as MCO? Or do they basically get the shaft?

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
COSPN
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:16 pm

Is Express work at the hubs protected ??? If not the new Food Services/ Outsourcing subsidiary Lady is going to have Chelsea doing the express work. They will get rid of every single employee not protected in the contract..

I heard they sold the building the United HQ is in for a 400 million dollar gain. So guess the new owner will find a way to extract more money out of United via fees for Parking and security and Utilities; A rumor is that they hired a former Airline executive to advise the new owners how to "stick it "'to United and make up some new fees like charging for each copper pair wire from the basement to the floor. New mail delivery fees. Really sad   and some other crazy security fees like twisted pair integrity fees and other bogus fees. To recover their investment. In the Former Sears tower.
 
COSPN
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:33 pm

Yes they can relocate to other stations Using their senority.
 
UA444
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 22):

Only if their seniority lets them. But then it displaces someone already at the hub lower on the totem pole.

This whole arrangement is a true nightmare. Every station that has mainline flights should be staffed by mainline ground staff.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):
I agree (for once) that business school creates meatheats but in reality It's mostly CO managment moved up from IAH making the majority of decisions. They are to blame for outsourcing.

Having said that - does it accomplish anything? Whatever the background of the senior management*, it's UA that's doing the outsourcing. CO is long gone. It will be the new UA that will suffer.


*Yes, much of the senior management is former CO.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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ADent
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 25):
This whole arrangement is a true nightmare. Every station that has mainline flights should be staffed by mainline ground staff.

It was pretty much that way at pre-merger UA.

Of course MIA was a UAX station under pmUA.
 
EXCOASA1982
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:23 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Kinda old news. Initial notice went out in January with stations now transitioning to vendors in May.

Has there been any updates on which stations will remain mainline employees? I.e. what the new work rules and pay rates will look like?
 
UA444
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 27):

MIA ground staff reached an agreement to keep working at the station after it transitioned to seasonal mainline.
 
bobnwa
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:27 pm

I recommend that UA hire Gary Wilson and AL Checchi from retirement! There were a a couple of guys who really knew how to get rid of employees with style when they were the czars at NW
Smisek can't hold a candle to those guys When it comes to getting rid of valuable employees while enriching themselves.
 
lpdal
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:38 pm

UA444, you know I am very supportive of United, and usually end up defending them in these sort of threads. Last year, I clocked out with 38,000 PQM, 23.5 qualifying segments, and near $8,000 in PQD (does not include taxes and fees), which made United my most traveled on airline of the year. I, however, must say, that most of the threads on here are grossly exaggerating the perceived "Big Bad United", and, to be honest, United doesn't do much that isn't that uncommon in regards to mistakes made by Richard Anderson or Doug Parker. Their mistakes are no more severe in scope than Jeff Smisek's, however, they are just different mistakes. Not any better or worse decisions, just different

And I say that because I've been on United, Delta, US Airways, AirTran (RIP), American Airlines, and many other airlines within the domestic sector, which all face the same common problems United does, most of which seem to primarily be caused by the nature of the airline industry itself. As know, I'm a 19-year-old FLL based frequent flyer, and of course my viewpoint may be perceived as "limited" due to my age, or because I "don't understand how this industry works" or that I don't have a horse in this race. However, I must say it is disappointing to see all these UA/CO debates on who is better, insulting the CEO over and over again instead of rallying for change, and generally dragging down the customer experience by continuing this "Us versus them" quarreling between sCO and sUA employees. I'm not on either side, I'm neutral, I just want the employees to make peace with each other and become an awesome, single carrier under the umbrella of "United". The front-line employees of airlines make the airline what it is, so it is entirely within their grasp to help the airline be the best it can be and help customers leave that UNITED-adorned airplane with a feeling of satisfaction at their destination.

Let's not act like other carriers at FLL aren't outsourced at all, either. Most of Delta's ramp operation, and a large portion of the international carriers are employed by Menzies. Mainline carriers who employ their own rampers include: JetBlue, Spirit, Southwest, and a few others, but for the most part, PBI and FLL rampers are mostly outsourced by all airlines, not just UA. I'm stating that due to the fact that is implied above that Delta, American Airlines, and US Airways all employ mainline rampers / ground staff at FLL, PBI, and MIA which is not even nearly the case. In MIA, most rampers working for Envoy, US Airways, and AA are mainline, however, nearly everything else is outsourced. So United isn't really unique in this trend. In fact, over in FLL at the calamitous Norwegian Long Haul, everything, from pilots to ticket agents to flight attendants, is outsourced.

Sorry, just had to get a little steam out...*goes back to trip reporting*...

-LPDAL / Colby
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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mercure1
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 25):
Every station that has mainline flights should be staffed by mainline ground staff.

I have always wondered about such views. Seems like a very U.S. attitude.

In most of the world, airlines contract out mundane things like airport handling to vendors especially outside hubs.

But many of the worlds top quality airlines go even further to contacting out services even at their hubs to vendors. For example EK @ DXB, SQ @ SIN are run virtually all by vendors, and even UA partner LH @ FRA contracts out below wing work.

So I really see no reason why US are stuck on the very 1960s notion they must maintain inhouse staff.
mercure f-wtcc
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 9):
FLL and many unprotected stations will go away after one year .. UA wants to get rid of all non hub employees. They have hired some overpaid guy from Skywest and made him a VP to set up a version of DGS for United   the race to the bottom continues .
Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 8):
Terrible article is terrible. They say FLL is being outsourced, wrong. MIA, PBI, RSW (BTW), PNS stations are being outsourced. FLL, TPA, MCO are mainline employees.

This is a "point shakeup".
For those who don't know how this works: FLL; PBI; and MIA is in the "Miami Point". A point for purpose of the contract is a group of airports in an immediate area (ie: JFK; LGA; EWR is considered the NYC Point. DCA; BWI; IAD is considered the Washington Point) Now you get the picture on how this works.

PBI and MIA is being cut. So members from those stations have the option of bumping into FLL which is protected. So those with the seniority can or will bump in, while those who are junior has to either take the system on what their seniority can hold, or take furlough. This is a situation where they listed all of the number of people that can be potentially affected. Throw RSW in the mix, even though they are not involved so to speak, because they are not in the point. Those members have to take the system. FLL (as well as MCO - which is being insourced - and TPA) is a protected city and is not being outsourced. It is just losing members because other higher seniority members from the point can or will be coming in.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 9):
FLL and many unprotected stations will go away after one year .. UA wants to get rid of all non hub employees. They have hired some overpaid guy from Skywest and made him a VP to set up a version of DGS for United   the race to the bottom continues .

This was going to happen eventually. Contract or not.
This serves two purposes:
One. It creates a "D" scale workforce in stations like DGS and Eagle to try to get other work as well
Two. It also helps in getting candidates to work for them by offering limited flight benefits on UA. The contractors can't offer this, and will get some traction for some. See the situation last winter @ DEN.

What our job is now, is to make sure none of this is infringing on our scope.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 14):
The biggest travesty in all of this is that the collective bargaining agent for United's ground staff, the IAM, negotiated away their own membership base by allowing the company to outsource outstations as part of the joint contract agreement between sub-CO and sub-UA ground staff. Sadly, many of those outstation employees contributed to their own professional demise by ratifying the tentative agreement, which gave United management carte blance to outsource most outstations.

Who in their right mind, would ratify a collective bargaining agreement that eliminated one's own job?

Simple......
People took the money, that's why. Plus the lies of LOA #5 and #6, and that is what happened.
People were warned.........

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 17):
Most of these small line stations probably voted NO on the second TA. When 75% of the votes come from the hubs, these line stations never had a chance. The company had plans to outsource these line stations since the merger. It was Jeff & Co that segregated these stations with ATW and BTW. Most of these sUA stations used cross utilized CS agents to perform CS and ramp. This kept the cost down at these stations. Now you have a small station with co-workers that can only work ramp and can't go up stairs and help out. So they sit around in their breakrooms while they could've been upstairs helping at the ticket counter helping customers.

You have to also remember this.
When the company forced members in cross utilized stations to make a choice between ATW/BTW, the buyouts that were offered were based on targets that if ATW or BTW had met them, a larger tiered amount of money was given. So naturally ATW got the larger payout (which meant many went ATW), and ramp couldn't even reach the tier. So as I said before, people took the money......

Not every hub said yes to this deal. I can tell you that DEN and EWR didn't. (So as a consequence, we got hit the hardest, losing many members and our Cargo, since everyone could not be integrated.)

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 22):
When a station such as FLL is completely outsourced, do the former mainline employees have an opportunity to work at a hub or a nearby larger station, such as MCO? Or do they basically get the shaft?

-LPDAL

Like COSPN said, you have to take the system like the rest of the 28 cities are doing. Whatever your seniority will hold.
If you can't move for whatever reason, you can take the furlough.

Quoting EXCOASA1982 (Reply 28):
Has there been any updates on which stations will remain mainline employees? I.e. what the new work rules and pay rates will look like?

Six or seven stations had to take the "modifications" in the contract. All I will say is that the cuts wasn't severe. They voted "yes" to it. Now the task is to put them under scope so the company can't go after them again.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 31):
However, I must say it is disappointing to see all these UA/CO debates on who is better, insulting the CEO over and over again instead of rallying for change, and generally dragging down the customer experience by continuing this "Us versus them" quarreling between sCO and sUA employees. I'm not on either side, I'm neutral, I just want the employees to make peace with each other and become an awesome, single carrier under the umbrella of "United". The front-line employees of airlines make the airline what it is, so it is entirely within their grasp to help the airline be the best it can be and help customers leave that UNITED-adorned airplane with a feeling of satisfaction at their destination.

I'm sorry, it's not just an UA vs CO anymore, we are all in the same boat, but IMHO the company keeps dividing us - ie:UA vs the employees. See FA's and MX for your example. This needs to stop and the contracts done already. It is hard enough to come to work every day with morale at all time lows.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 32):
So I really see no reason why US are stuck on the very 1960s notion they must maintain inhouse staff.

  

Agreed fully.
I also don't understand notion that handling needs to be done inhouse except for unions obviously trying to preserve their golden goose money streams.

Fact is majority of front line and back end handling functions are hardly rocket science jobs or ones that require much education. Its rather crazy when airline ground jobs pay huge premiums over similar jobs in other hospitality fields.

Having been involved with ground handling on/off for better part of 3 decades, I have certainly seen handling can meet or exceed service levels of airline inhouse staff. I've regularly seen contracted stations attain higher ontime performance, reduced luggage damage/loss rates, higher consumer compliment scores than inhouse stations at fraction of the cost base.

For much of the airline world including the most customer centric global companies going with a vendor is a routine process.
An airlines just need to properly set their service expectations, offer adequate training and oversight along with appropriate incentives and vendors can go off and do their jobs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
UA1K3MM
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 33):

Thank you T5towbar
This is the best explanation I've read thus far and it is correct. My "home" station ONT is likewise being 100% outsourced in May. Senior sUA staff, the lowest has 18 years seniority, some have over 25 years are having to make a decision to either bump someone at LAX or SNA to keep there jobs and commute 50+ miles further to work or they can take the furlough. I've seen this handwriting on the wall for over two years as ONT was cutback to 100% UAX service by Skywest. Understand the new gate employees will be from Skywest as well. I'm wishing my longtime friends the best as they make their decisions, they will really be missed and were some of the best experienced staff who knew their customers and what was meant by quality customer service. I should know, since they've saved me many times over the last 25 years flying 3 million + miles on United. Yes, the merger has been tough on many, but it still remains my airline of choice!      
 
OB1504
Posts: 3768
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:55 pm

Any word on what vendor will be doing UA above wing at MIA?
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3565
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
An airlines just need to properly set their service expectations, offer adequate training and oversight along with appropriate incentives and vendors can go off and do their jobs.

Yep. And partially because of the lower labor cost you can actually far improve the operational reliability.

Instead of paying 3 guys at $25/hr to run a gate, you can afford 5 at $15. No question which scenario gets you better turn times and reliability.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

I also don't understand notion that handling needs to be done inhouse except for unions obviously trying to preserve their golden goose money streams.

Ah yes, Those damn unions. protecting works and such. just WTF are they doing?

Those uneducated scum should be making minimum wage!  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

Fact is majority of front line and back end handling functions are hardly rocket science jobs or ones that require much education. Its rather crazy when airline ground jobs pay huge premiums over similar jobs in other hospitality fields.

Me thinks you wouldn't last a day on the ramp.
Oh and all those people with management degrees out there, what we should do is play the same with those types. Lower pay and outsourcing.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
Having been involved with ground handling on/off for better part of 3 decades, I have certainly seen handling can meet or exceed service levels of airline inhouse staff. I've regularly seen contracted stations attain higher ontime performance, reduced luggage damage/loss rates, higher consumer compliment scores than inhouse stations at fraction of the cost base.

Ahem, Delta, with now the largest in-house ramp is kicking the complete ass of American and United on those numbers.

Curious how that works.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

An airlines just need to properly set their service expectations, offer adequate training and oversight along with appropriate incentives and vendors can go off and do their jobs.

They have been so great at it. Clear we should let them keep going, maybe a few more flaming holes in the ground......but really, who cares about that. Long as margins are strong.  




This crap is EXACTLY why Delta is doing so well in its metrics and employee relations and United and American aren't, but hey......keep going down this road. It has failed for 50 years but just keep doing it. It HAS to work at some point.  
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 40):
This crap is EXACTLY why Delta is doing so well in its metrics and employee relations and United and American aren't, but hey......keep going down this road.

Delta doesn't have unionized ramp employees. Maybe the Union is the problem and is what stands in the way of more insourced employment?

What does it say in your Union handbook about that? Seems like that is where most of the rest of your responses have come from.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 41):
Delta doesn't have unionized ramp employees.

What does that have to do with performance?
Wouldn't that make it easier to outsource?

So its the unions fault production is down? Please prove that.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 41):
Maybe the Union is the problem and is what stands in the way of more insourced employment?

Yeah clearly that is it.  
Or it could be that United and American jump at every chance they get to outsource while other don't.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 41):
What does it say in your Union handbook about that? Seems like that is where most of the rest of your responses have come from.

ah the old "he doesn't want to outsource everything at all costs HE MUST BE A UNION PERSON"

I am not even in a union nor do i want to be in one.

Of course, oddly enough Delta is adding more and more mainline airplanes. United and American aren't. Odd how that works out too.

[Edited 2015-03-13 14:33:52]
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 42):
What does that have to do with performance?
Wouldn't that make it easier to outsource?

So its the unions fault production is down? Please prove that.

They have lower wages and better staffing flexibility due to lack of a union, which makes the economics of keeping the labor in house much easier to justify.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 42):
Of course, oddly enough Delta is adding more and more mainline airplanes. United and American aren't.

Actually, both are adding mainline, and AA currently has about 200 more mainline airplanes than DL, just in case you were curious as to the actual facts and not just platitudes.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 40):
Me thinks you wouldn't last a day on the ramp.

Funny you say that. I did 3 years working on the ramp. Did quite well, made lead and supervisor in short order.

Certainly not a job that required much skill, or education from my experience. I don't think I ever used math beyond basic grade school level arithmetic for example.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 40):
Those uneducated scum should be making minimum wage!

No need for you to call people scum.

But its quite clear there is a disconnect between airline ground staff wages and rest of society.
No reason a cabin cleaner needs to earn $18-22/hr when a hotel maid or run of mill janitor earns maybe $9.50. Or airline customer service rep north of $20-25 when even at a top end hotel front desk staff might be only earning $14/15.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 40):
They have been so great at it. Clear we should let them keep going, maybe a few more flaming holes in the ground......but really, who cares about that. Long as margins are strong.

The US airline industry has been quite sick so maybe its time they look beyond overseas and do follow best practices such as wide adoption of contract ground handling.

Maybe carrying so many thousands of people on payroll is not the answer as some believe and a more horizontal organization with many duties contracted out could be the sweet spot.

Much of the modern economy is based on service providers or franchise model, so let the airlines try it out.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
style
Posts: 208
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
But its quite clear there is a disconnect between airline ground staff wages and rest of society.
No reason a cabin cleaner needs to earn $18-22/hr when a hotel maid or run of mill janitor earns maybe $9.50. Or airline customer service rep north of $20-25 when even at a top end hotel front desk staff might be only earning $14/15.

Oh absolutely, we can't have a customer service rep making a decent livable wage. The outrage of it all is just maddening. Why do people hate on a certain work group being able to make a decent salary? I never hear the same outrage for FA's that make upwards of $50/hr and they don't require any specialty training other than their new hire training provided by the company. I say more power to them for making the wages they make, its the time and negotiating they have put in over the years to get what they get.

But for some to come on here and make it seem like $20-25/hr is too much for a customer service rep to make is just ludicrous. Do these same people know what the cost of living out there is these days?
 
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mercure1
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting Reply 45):
I never hear the same outrage for FA's that make upwards of $50/hr and they don't require any specialty training other than their new hire training provided by the company.

Remember FA's have time limits on how much they can work realistically, unlike ground staff which can put in full days 5 or more times per week. So person on ground earning 1/2 of FA wage can manage higher pay at end of month still.

Quoting Reply 45):
But for some to come on here and make it seem like $20-25/hr is too much for a customer service rep to make is just ludicrous.

If the price in broader society is half for a similar job, its a little crazy for airlines to have to overpay so much for what is essentially a low skill set positions.

Quoting Reply 45):
Do these same people know what the cost of living out there is these days?

Why is that the companies problem? It should be the employees issue. Maybe they should have acquire more education, more skills to allow themselves to earn better living and have better life style.

If you only have high school education, or minimal college education with lack of good skill set, then obviously you are not as valuable as you are in a pool of millions similar.

I read once good analogy. The working world is like a pyramid. Very wide and lots of people on bottom, and very narrow and few on top. In order to move up one needs to bring some value and stand out from the masses.
Unfortunately the skills needed for many airline jobs can be done by the masses near the bottom, so the pay is logically commensurate.
So no shame in the fact, but we should not be afraid to understand the reality and try not to make excuses about airline jobs into something more complicated which they are not.
mercure f-wtcc
 
ckfred
Posts: 5166
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 11):
That way all the bean counter geniuses at the big Willie on Whacker can get rid of half their offices, and the ops floors.

That would be funny, if a lot of people in Chicago actually called the building at 233 S. Wacker Dr. the Willis Tower. Sears, Roebuck & Co. built the building, and I still call it the Sears Tower.
 
COSPN
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RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:49 pm

What United needs is some outsourced management from overseas that will work for USD 50k a year and make good decisions for the company. Why does some kid with a fresh MBA from a so so school feel that he has Any "talent"'to help run an airline . And that a 25 year ramp employee. Is "overpaid" .
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3565
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 47):
and I still call it the Sears Tower.

Most people did for a while, pretty much everyone in the city calls it "Willis" now. Outside Chicago though, if I say "Willis" people look at me dumbfounded, and then I say "Sears".

Quoting Reply 45):
Oh absolutely, we can't have a customer service rep making a decent livable wage

The issue is not the wage itself, the issue is the wage compared to what people of the same qualification are making in other areas.
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:58 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 46):
Remember FA's have time limits on how much they can work realistically, unlike ground staff which can put in full days 5 or more times per week. So person on ground earning 1/2 of FA wage can manage higher pay at end of month still.

Not true. I know FA's that work as much as they want once they hold a line. It is the ones that are on reserve that are much more limited in the hours they can work because of the restrictions of being on call. Again, I am not bashing FA's for the wages they make. What I am calling out is the double standard that posts like yours make. You're quick to defend the FA making $50+ per hour (in a service industry) with no particular set skills but you then say that a customer service rep should go get a higher education if they are unhappy. Again, just because a customer service rep can make $20-25/hr and a hotel desk rep makes $14-16/hr we need to step back and say its too much? Doesn't remind me much of the capitalist society we live in, more like a socialist model.
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: United Staff Cuts In Florida

Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 48):
What United needs is some outsourced management from overseas that will work for USD 50k a year and make good decisions for the company. Why does some kid with a fresh MBA from a so so school feel that he has Any "talent"'to help run an airline . And that a 25 year ramp employee. Is "overpaid" .

         Let's try this model for a change.

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