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KarelXWB
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Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:49 am

It seems Boeing are studying a long-range version of the 737-8 MAX, in response to the A321LR.

Initial specifications can be seen in the image below. Remember, this is still a concept so the specifications might change further down the road.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2woeq1k.jpg

Article
http://leehamnews.com/2015/03/12/dra...erx-concept-in-response-to-a321lr/
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:04 am

Is there room in the tail for fuel tanks?
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:07 am

First, Leeham's articles seem like they were ghostwritten by an 8th-grader; they really need to find someone to put their works together a bit more coherently.  

Second,

Quote:
Entry-into-service is discussed as 2020-21, up to two years after the A321LR. This is late and will limit the ERX’s market capture in the single aisle long range market. The ERX also carriers significantly fewer passengers than the A321LR. In our previous analysis, using the cabin configuration of 169 seats for United Airlines on its Boeing 757, we concluded the A321LR would seat 164 and the 737-8 would seat 136.

That's two major strikes that this thing has against it before it can even get off the drawing board... and there doesn't seem to be much that Boeing can do about either one. Not a good position to start in.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:09 am

Besides, don't airlines already have the ability to order what's basically a tanked 737 in BBJ form and fly it commercially?

IINM, NH is the only mainstream carrier who's done this (as opposed to the PrivatAir types)-- it hasn't proven popular at all. Why would that change, with this such model?


Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 1):
Is there room in the tail for fuel tanks?

Even if there was, I doubt they'd use it. Boeing looked at adding tail tanks to both the 767 and 777, and decided against it for both. The added weight/complexity cancelled out the benefit.

I'd imagine that that disadvantageous effect would be even more pronounced on a narrowbody such as this.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tommy1808
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:52 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Initial specifications

sounds heavy. ...

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a320fan
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:17 pm

The approx 30 seat capacity difference with the A321LR is going to hurt this proposal.


Airline A operating A321LRs over the Atlantic 164

Airline B operating 737-8ERX same route 136

28 seat difference let's say + 6J and + 22Y

J $1000 Y $500

$17000 extra revenue availble from the A321

Airline A enjoys advantage on the route.

(this is a very simple analysis, but gives an idea of some metrics involved)
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:19 pm

I see it more as a base for BBJ-2 MAX application than competition to A321Neo LR.
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 6):
I see it more as a base for BBJ-2 MAX application than competition to A321Neo LR.

Well Leeham says it's being touted by Boeing as a response to the A321LR.
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TK787
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
don't airlines already have the ability to order what's basically a tanked 737 in BBJ form and fly it commercially?

Yep. TK did. Ordered 10 with tanks with only 151 seats and now changed their mind and receiving the remaining 5 frames without the tanks.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:42 pm

For Airlines that operate large 737 fleets and need a hand full of longer range planes this makes sense. Especially for Boeing, if the only alternative for the ailines is to buy A321NEOLR - and then be open for more A32X NEO.
 
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Polot
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:55 pm

Its basically just taking everything from the -9 and putting it on the 738, ala the 77W and 77L. It won't be that competitive with the A321LR, but it is quick and simple with minimal investment that Boeing would probably easily make back with the BBJ market if nothing else.
 
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Btblue
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:03 pm

Are Boeing out of touch?

The A321LR offers more seats so Boeing offers something that has less, significantly less.

Apparently there is no market for the 757, but there is clearly a market for a 757 sized aircraft.

Seems like they're (Boeing) are just going round in circles... in the meantime, Airbus gobble up the orders and Boeing are left to their much improved to within an inch of its life, 737.

747 sales are dwindling...

767 sales - almost at an end - and the line remains open.

The 757 line shut down and broken up - no way back.

Of course, this could be an exercise in 'smoke and mirrors' ala Sonic Cruiser...
 
SunsetLimited
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:07 pm

On paper this seems like a reactionary, quickly thrown together effort. I doubt the 321LR needs to be shaking in its boots over this. Is this really the best Boeing can do? Let's hope not...
Spread hope like fire.
 
karadion
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:10 pm

The title is quite misleading. Unless there's a Boeing official press release, this is a Leeham story/article.
 
Triple7Lr
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:16 pm

Just make a 757NEO already. There's obviously an appetite for a plane with similar capabilities. This concept is already at a significant disadvantage. Is this the best Boeing could come up with?   
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 11):
767 sales - almost at an end - and the line remains open.

The USAF has 179 on order.

Quoting btblue (Reply 11):
The A321LR offers more seats so Boeing offers something that has less, significantly less.

The -900, which has the seats, doesn't have the room to add anymore MTOW because the landing gear prevents the takeoff angle needed at higher weights and reasonable liftoff speeds. So the next best thing is have the wing and MTOW of the -900 on the body of a -800 or -700. This solution has less weight to cary around, same or better takeoff performance compared to the -900 (remember that the takeoff performance is what is limiting the -900), but carries less revenue area.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 14):
s this the best Boeing could come up with?

Boeing is putting lipstick on a pig to see who bites. If no one bites, the 321NEO-LR might force Boeing to start B-NSA against their will. I wonder if the B-NSA could do the same thing to A320NEO?
Boiler Up!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 13):
The title is quite misleading. Unless there's a Boeing official press release, this is a Leeham story/article.

It is? Boeing is showing this concept to airlines.

From the article:

Quote:
Sources within Boeing confirmed the concept

Of course, that doesn't mean it will see the light of day.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 15):
The USAF has 179 on order.

No they don't. They intend to purchase 179, but so far, only the first four have been contracted. A technical difference, but where defence spending is concerned, you can never be sure.
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CRJ900
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:40 pm

I think this will be attractive for the likes of Ryanair, Norwegian, Transavia et al, they will then be able to fly 197 pax from Northern Europe to Canary islands, Egypt etc year round.
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karadion
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
It is? Boeing is showing this concept to airlines.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Of course, that doesn't mean it will see the light of day.

And the chart, the slides, etc are Leeham's, not Boeing's. I've seen plenty of articles from Leeham that are a bit over the top. You guys ever hear of clickbait?
 
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Polot
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
No they don't. They intend to purchase 179, but so far, only the first four have been contracted. A technical difference, but where defence spending is concerned, you can never be sure.

True, but that 179(+) potential order is the primary reason that the 767 line is still open. If the USAF doesn't contract for the rest and makes it clear they don't intend to/can't for some time you will probably see Boeing make the last call for orders amongst airlines (primarily cargo ones) then slowly wind the line down. It is a bit disingenuous to use the 767 line as an example of "Boeing just going around in circles." The 767 is at the end of its commercial life, although it is still doing fairly well in the cargo market thanks to FX, but there is still a (technically potential) bright future for it in the military realm.
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:00 pm

One of the major operators of the 757 over the Atlantic is United. Potentially this allows for a carrier already operating 737NG/737 Max to continue with the 737 family as they retire 757s.
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bgm
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:00 pm

Looks like Boeing is clutching at straws. Clearly, they missed the boat with this one.
 
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Btblue
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 15):
Boeing is putting lipstick on a pig


  

Did a Google search and found this, posted 10 years ago on this very forum.

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/1470695

If they had the line open, do to the 757 what they're doing to the 777X...

[Edited 2015-03-12 07:03:57]
 
holzmann
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:13 pm

It's called too little, too late.
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BaconButty
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:26 pm

Whatever it's prospects for airlines, this aircraft will be a big boon to the BBJ line. For the original BBJ Boeing took a different tack to Airbus, creating a tailored variant combining elements of the -800 into the -700 to give it the necessary range - something the A319 already had (sort of). This gave Boeing the lead in that segment (although, given the additional R&D it's anybody's guess which was the most successful financially). I was wondering what they would do with the Max - Airbus gets the NEO improvements into their ACJ narrow-body line for free, whereas Boeing would have to re-certify the variant (for the most popular BBJ1 at least). I could see the -8ERX selling a hundred to corporate clients over the next 15 years, at the kinds of margins you could only dream of to airline customers.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
Burkhard
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:32 pm

Well they do what can be done for small Money, makes sense.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
For Airlines that operate large 737 fleets and need a hand full of longer range planes this makes sense. Especially for Boeing, if the only alternative for the ailines is to buy A321NEOLR - and then be open for more A32X NEO.

I imagine Southwest would be interested in this proposal for their Central and South America expansion plans.

Also, AA has 100 787-8 maxes on order, perhaps they could find use for some of these amongst their order
 
Natflyer
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 8):

Where did TK use those -900s with aux tanks?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:36 pm

So this is basically a 737-9 MAX without the fuselage plugs. Or, if you prefer, a civilian P-8 MAX. Seems like a minimal-cost response that might capture a sale here and there.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 11):

767 sales - almost at an end - and the line remains open.

You're forgetting one small 767 program. You might want to check your facts before you bash Boeing's line-up.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:49 pm

I doubt Boeing has done anything more than market the concept to some airlines and they won't make it if nobody bites

It costs nothing to make a proposal, so why not? I think floating the proposal is a good idea...whether or not anybody is interested is another thing.
What the...?
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:50 pm

Move that friggin' L1 door back so you can have a real FC cabin...not one with everyone traipsing through it during boarding. Only then will it remotely be considered a potential 757 replacement.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:51 pm

As a general rule, I don't take anything Leeham says about Boeing as gospel until I hear from Boeing themselves, because when my source is "Market Intelligence", I tend to raise an eyebrow.

However, that get me to thinking, what if Boeing did proceed with a 737MAX8ER with a similar interior specifications as the MAX 200, but, as labelled in the photo, also utilizes 737-9 hardware (Gear, Wings, Tanks, etc.), and produced that instead of the 737 MAX 9?
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catiii
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 31):
Move that friggin' L1 door back so you can have a real FC cabin...not one with everyone traipsing through it during boarding. Only then will it remotely be considered a potential 757 replacement.

So then I guess the 763ERs that DL flies don't have a real F cabin?
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 17):
I think this will be attractive for the likes of Ryanair, Norwegian, Transavia et al, they will then be able to fly 197 pax from Northern Europe to Canary islands, Egypt etc year round.
Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 26):
I imagine Southwest would be interested in this proposal for their Central and South America expansion plans.

Along similar lines, my first thought is that this would be a workhorse to Hawaii from the mainland. Might also get interest from WS and/or AC for Hawaii and longer Caribbean routes. I don't see it being very popular for TATL.
 
Natflyer
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 32):

Will hardly work. With full fuel tanks this thing only has a max payload of around 33,000lbs. It still has the -8 MZFW, and is a heavier frame so less payload than the -8 but for a longer distance.
 
SWADawg
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:11 pm

If WN can squeeze in even close to their 175 seats in a single class configuration, then they will easily order 100 of these MAX 8 variants.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
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rangercarp
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:21 pm

Do we know how the range might compare to the 321LR? If it can beat it, that could mean more potential sales. (Not more that the 321LR, but more than it would garner otherwise.)
iwgbtp!
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 11):
747 sales are dwindling.

That's a rather generous description, if you're talking about the pax version.
"Nonexistent" would be more accurate.

Quoting Karadion (Reply 13):
The title is quite misleading.

How?

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 14):
Just make a 757NEO already.

That ship sailed a long time ago, not happening.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 31):
Move that friggin' L1 door back so you can have a real FC cabin...not one with everyone traipsing through it during boarding. Only then will it remotely be considered a potential 757 replacement.

On a list of Boeing's top 1,000 concerns about a proposal like this... THAT would have to be ranked in the 990s, for order of importance.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting a320fan (Reply 5):
The approx 30 seat capacity difference with the A321LR is going to hurt this proposal.

It might and it might not. It depends on what the load factors look like normalized over an entire year.

lightsaber has been of the opinion that the 737-8 and A320-200neo could "re-fragment" TATL travel much as the 767 and A330 did. The 737-8ERX sounds exactly like what he was describing and the smaller capacity might make it a more "safe" proposal, especially for new missions.

Honestly, the 737-8ERX and the A321-200neoLR could complement each other as much as they could compete with each other in airline fleets.

[Edited 2015-03-12 09:33:23]
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 36):
If WN can squeeze in even close to their 175 seats in a single class configuration, then they will easily order 100 of these MAX 8 variants.

Huh? What routes is WN even pushing the range envelope right now?

tortugamon
 
mham001
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting SunsetLimited (Reply 12):
On paper this seems like a reactionary, quickly thrown together effort.

Much like the reaction here.

I would look at -800 sales numbers before writing this off. And consider the customers something like this would keep in the fold. All from the parts bin.
 
karadion
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 38):
How?

Do you have an official Boeing press release that indicates that Boeing is offering a 737-8ERX? The answer to that question is a resoundingly loud NO. Leeham is the one pushing this story so the topic is "Leeham reports that Boeing could be offering a 737-8ERX, here's why".
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 42):
Do you have an official Boeing press release that indicates that Boeing is offering a 737-8ERX?

Better question: do you not understand the difference between board-authorized offer vs. an interest proposal, which is all this is?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
UA444
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:08 pm

As usual, they've brought a knife to a gun fight. But I'm sure Randy will say they're a market leader and Airbus is just trying to catch up. Hope Airbus cleans their clocks.
 
karadion
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 43):

Which neither exists. Leeham claims "sources" but that's as far as it goes.
 
offloaded
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:18 pm

The 737 came out in 1967, the 747 in 1969, and the 757 in 1982. I don't get the endless 737 variants, when a 757NEO would be a perfect fit. IMHO of course.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
32andBelow
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 46):
The 737 came out in 1967, the 747 in 1969, and the 757 in 1982. I don't get the endless 737 variants, when a 757NEO would be a perfect fit. IMHO of course.

The airlines had the ability to build up massive 757 fleets and keep them going...however they built up massive 737 fleets with thousands more on order.
 
beachbum1970
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 15):
Boeing is putting lipstick on a pig to see who bites

Oh please god, PLEASE don't show this to United Airlines...
 
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Finn350
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RE: Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept

Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:24 pm

The title of this thread is misleading. It should be "Leeham Shows 737-8ERX Concept" instead of "Boeing Shows 737-8ERX Concept ". The picture in the first post is drafted by Leeham, although it is easy to mistake as a Boeing concept.

[Edited 2015-03-12 10:25:33]

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