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psa188
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Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:31 am

There has been lots of discussion about the pissing contest between the so-called "ME3" and the "US3." Now well-known travel writer Joe Brancatelli weighs in here http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjourna...ersian-gulf-airlines.html?page=all and draws this conclusion:

"The U.S. carriers' push is likely doomed because it fails the smell test. Americans dislike the oligarchy that the U.S. carriers have created and they hate the service and policies that they offer. Moreover, Americans like competition and they love the kind of cut-throat, price-slashing competition the Gulf carriers have brought to air travel."

I agree with this completely.
 
bgm
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:58 am

Nailed it.

Don't expect any sympathy from the travelling public when you nickle and dime them for a crap product.
 
avek00
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:03 am

Americans continue to enjoy the single most competitive air market on Earth. Anyone who calls it an oligarchy can be disregarded...and Joe Brancatelli is very much a "yesterday's news" guy in aviation reporting these days.
Live life to the fullest.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
well-known but generally far-off-the-mark travel writer Joe Brancatelli

There, fixed that for you.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 2):

So you're saying that our Airlines should be having a Monopoly, bad service and terrible policies. Im sorry but I agree with the writer and Psa188. Take them once and it will change your point of view on how bad the American carriers are.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 2):
Americans continue to enjoy the single most competitive air market on Earth. Anyone who calls it an oligarchy can be disregarded...

In what way? There are three major legacy carriers. No other carrier can offer quite the range of routes and services that these legacy carriers offer. They offer a unified and coordinated air travel service ranging from regional routes that take a Brazilia up to long-range intercontinental flights on 744s and 77Ws.

No mere "start-up" carrier is going to start being able to offer that sort of range of services. Not WN, not AS, not B6 (although if anyone might make a run for it, they would), not VX, not F9, not NK, and not G4. The Legacies came about by a series of mergers and long lead-in times. DL came into existence in 1934 as the Delta Air Service, a crop dusting operation out of the Mississippi River Delta. US Airways was late to the game starting in 1939 as Allegheny and wound up as the smallest legacy.

So yes, we are now in a three-way oligopoly. There is no more "three big and three small" legacy carriers. For that matter, there is no more Pan Am or Eastern or TWA. Now the three can simply choose to all collude to offer the same domestic standards and nobody will be able to pull a lot of passengers away from them. They're the only airlines with large international networks.

Anyone who says we aren't..."can be disregarded."
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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mayor
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
DL came into existence in 1934

1929
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
MVAair
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

There is no oligopoly. You say not not not not and list a bunch of airlines but in total they do. Plus on international routes there are foreign carriers. Most Americans won't support ME3 because they'll never travel on ME3 carriers.

Name another country that is as competitive as the USA? And it is not just number but breadth and depth of service.

You're wrong that no one will be able to pull passengers away from the Legacy carriers. In 10 years Spirit will probably have 300 plus planes. The market is dynamic and always changing.

The only reason the US might not crack down on ME3 is Boeing.
 
MVAair
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:25 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 1):

Define crap product. People get the product they are willing to pay for. Flights are more ontime today than 15 or 20 years ago. Bags aren't mishandled. What do you want?
 
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mayor
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting MVAair (Reply 8):

Quoting bgm (Reply 1):

Define crap product. People get the product they are willing to pay for. Flights are more ontime today than 15 or 20 years ago. Bags aren't mishandled. What do you want?

I don't think he can.....not in reality. "Crap product" is in the mind of the one experiencing it. Of course, those that do consider the product as such are prone to lumping the products of the Big3 together, rather than looking at each individual airline to see what they actually offer.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Planesmart
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting MVAair (Reply 7):
Most Americans won't support ME3 because they'll never travel on ME3 carriers.

If that's true, what do the US3 have to worry about? Americans will fly on the US3 and their JV mates, so let international visitors choose to arrive in the USA on the airline of our choice, not on the airline of your choice.
 
MVAair
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:33 am

Quoting planesmart (Reply 10):

The problem is the get govt subsidies. The solution is simple. A countervailing tariff on fares by the ME3. But that could jeopardize Boeing sales to ME3.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
Moreover, Americans like competition and they love the kind of cut-throat, price-slashing competition the Gulf carriers have brought to air travel.

   Americans, like all people the world over, want Whole Foods but want to pay for Walmart. They want human rights but they want iPhones. They want union jobs but they want more ME3 capacity in the US. They want more customer service but they buy everything on Amazon. They want big beautiful airports with lots of open space but won't let a single dime of taxes go to an extra square inch of concrete. They say "I'll pay extra for service" and then vote with their wallets supporting airlines like WN, B6, NK, and G4. They want champagne and caviar served by unioized Americans making living wages departing from Taj Mahal terminals, but will only pay for peanuts and outsourced DGS handling from a lean-to in LGA. Well congrats kids, you get the air service that you pay for.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 2):
Americans continue to enjoy the single most competitive air market on Earth. Anyone who calls it an oligarchy can be disregarded...and Joe Brancatelli is very much a "yesterday's news" guy in aviation reporting these days.

   I haven't heard his name in a long time.

Quoting MVAair (Reply 7):
Most Americans won't support ME3 because they'll never travel on ME3 carriers.

   But they know they want more ME3 service, because showers. 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
tommy1808
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting MVAair (Reply 7):
Name another country that is as competitive as the USA? And it is not just number but breadth and depth of service.

country, no. But for all practical aviation business purposes the EU is one market, and one with a plethora of airlines competing in it.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
avek00
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
There are three major legacy carriers.

Correct, which is 1-2 more longhaul legacy carriers than exists in most of the world's major air markets.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 13):
But for all practical aviation business purposes the EU is one market, and one with a plethora of airlines competing in it.

Not quite. Yes, the EU is legally one air market, but from cultural and structural standpoints, it is still many years away from practically operating as one.
Live life to the fullest.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Well congrats kids, you get the air service that you pay for.

Your analysis of the schizophrenic American mindset is spot on - but I don't agree we are getting the air service we pay for in this market. $350 is a fair price to pay for a transcontinental ticket on a plane serving peanuts, hard slim line seats, few lavatories, baggage fees and 29 inch pitch. $550-700 for that level of comfort/service is not. The US airlines are making a fortune lately, but their increased profits have - so far - not trickled down to those who fall within the middle economic class, let alone the lower economic classes. They can afford to provide a better experience. They'll get away with it, until competition comes along that forces them to change.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 15):

Even with such profitable profits this year they won't upgrade their experience. DL as an example is just introducing an even smaller economy seat.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 14):

I don't think anyone in the EU would want to have the competition the way we have it in the U.S. (many more carriers in EU over the U.S. ).
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
psa188
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Americans, like all people the world over, want Whole Foods but want to pay for Walmart.

Many of us just want what the airlines offered until 2008; a decent fare combined with basic service and a reasonable baggage allowanced included in the fare. Oh, and if you show up early on the day of travel, airlines would put you on an earlier flight at no extra charge. Is that too much to ask?

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 15):
They'll get away with it, until competition comes along that forces them to change.

Or until travel demand falls off during the next economic downturn....
 
RJNUT
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting MVAair (Reply 8):
more ontime today than 15 or 20 years ago. Bags aren't mishandled. What do you want?

but you are not accounting for the quite unreliable "Express " services that muck up the legacy experience due to chronic maintenance issues, ATC/scheduling issues , staffing issues, all creating quite a mess!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 15):
$550-700 for that level of comfort/service is not.

You're seeing a temporary dislocation brought on by consolidation and lower fuel prices. It will not last.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 17):
Many of us just want what the airlines offered until 2008; a decent fare combined with basic service and a reasonable baggage allowanced included in the fare. Oh, and if you show up early on the day of travel, airlines would put you on an earlier flight at no extra charge. Is that too much to ask?

The fuel spike and the economic crash put an end to that. Airlines were adding any and every fee they could get away with just to survive. Now that the tide has receded they're investing billions in product and paying down debt in preparation of the next 1-2 punch coming down the pike. I really don't understand the objection to bag fees--don't like it? Don't bring a bag...or fly WN, or any modicum of loyalty at most airlines will waive the fees, or buy a fare that has it included if it's an airline that bundles fare products...
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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thekorean
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting psa188 (Reply 17):

And that is what they get.
 
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mayor
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:20 pm

The American consumer will not be happy until the fares are, again, dirt cheap with all the amenities.......then they'll wonder why their favorite airline isn't making any money and has to reduce service or something, just to survive.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
tommy1808
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
The American consumer will not be happy until the fares are, again, dirt cheap with all the amenities.......then they'll wonder why their favorite airline isn't making any money and has to reduce service or something, just to survive.

but what is really going to happen is: an improved international offering where they do have to compete, and shed anything possible and charge extra for anything possible where there is no competition: domestic.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Markam
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:29 pm

“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

Adam Smith, in "The Wealth of Nations" (1776)

  
 
MVAair
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 18):
but you are not accounting for the quite unreliable "Express " services that muck up the legacy experience due to chronic maintenance issues, ATC/scheduling issues , staffing issues, all creating quite a mess!

ok that's true.
 
phxtravelboy
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:24 pm

Good ole Joe. ALL this man does is bitch and moan about travel. Every article I've read by him in USAToday is nothing but complaints. I take everything he writes with a VERY small grain of salt.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 4):
So you're saying that our Airlines should be having a Monopoly, bad service and terrible policies. Im sorry but I agree with the writer and Psa188. Take them once and it will change your point of view on how bad the American carriers are

****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Somehow you seem to have missed the BUS.. Deregulation went IN during the Carter administration because President Carter and Alfred Kahn the Chairman of the CAB thought that airline fares would go Down if the airlines were De-regulated.
Dr. Kahn said later that he made a mistake because what he GOT wasn't what he envisioned. Time was Baggage was free, Food was free, nothing was rolled into your Fare except taxes. Fuel was $1.35/Gal . Now? Fuel is $2.72/Gal. there IS no more full fare, You Get what you Pay for.
And Taxes and Fees are through the Roof. But?!? the basic airfare hasn't gone up over 20% between then and now.
So Tell me? What in the hell else do you EXPECT??
When we had full fare a 65% full airplane was profitable. Now?? A 75%LF might not be profitable. Passengers no longer care about amenities
They care solely for PRICE. So that indicates to ME that they will take what they GET as long as the price is right.
As an airline Employee? I'm paid to make sure you get where you're going Safely. Other guys are paid to make sure your Bags go with you, (or before you) , and still other guys are paid to make sure you gat the service you Paid FOR.
So if you didn't Pay for much? You get Not Much. There IS NO regulation that proclaims passengers are entitled to 35 inches of seat pitch. No regulation that you're entitled to overhead Bin Storage, No regulation that you're entitled to FOOD!!
I have NO idea what you're complaining about. You Got what you wanted. Now you don't like what you Got??
Might I suggest? You should Lobby your Congressman and your Senator to bring back RE-Regulation and Full Service to the airlines.
I can make BOOK that none of you would. Because all you're going to DO is complain and Flap Lips about it..
To which I say ?? What you have? You brought on yourselves..
 
Viscount724
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Quoting avek00 (Reply 2):
Americans continue to enjoy the single most competitive air market on Earth. Anyone who calls it an oligarchy can be disregarded...

In what way? There are three major legacy carriers. No other carrier can offer quite the range of routes and services that these legacy carriers offer.

You're overlooking the dozens of non-US carriers that compete with US carriers. You have many options no matter where in the world you're going (except of course domestic, but that's not relevant to the ME3 discussion).
 
MVAair
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 26):
. Deregulation went IN during the Carter administration because President Carter and Alfred Kahn the Chairman of the CAB thought that airline fares would go Down if the airlines were De-regulated.

Fares did indeed go down
 
psa188
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
I really don't understand the objection to bag fees

I tried to explain it above. Bag fees represent a degradation of a product that the airlines offered since the 1930s and people don't like to be nickel and dimed for things that should be included in the fare.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:06 am

Quoting psa188 (Reply 29):
people don't like to be nickel and dimed for things that should be included in the fare.

Why are G4/NK/FR/U2/AK/etc so successful then?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Americans, like all people the world over, want Whole Foods but want to pay for Walmart. They want human rights but they want iPhones. They want union jobs but they want more ME3 capacity in the US. They want more customer service but they buy everything on Amazon. They want big beautiful airports with lots of open space but won't let a single dime of taxes go to an extra square inch of concrete. They say "I'll pay extra for service" and then vote with their wallets supporting airlines like WN, B6, NK, and G4. They want champagne and caviar served by unioized Americans making living wages departing from Taj Mahal terminals, but will only pay for peanuts and outsourced DGS handling from a lean-to in LGA. Well congrats kids, you get the air service that you pay for.

^THIS!!!!!!!!

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 13):
But for all practical aviation business purposes the EU is one market

Internally maybe... but people here often tend to forget that most of the world still views; and more importantly, contracts with; the EU as multiple different independently sovereign countries, not a single unified market.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 15):
$350 is a fair price to pay for a transcontinental ticket on a plane serving peanuts, hard slim line seats, few lavatories, baggage fees and 29 inch pitch. $550-700 for that level of comfort/service is not

Based on what?

Quoting psa188 (Reply 29):
Bag fees represent a degradation of a product that the airlines offered since the 1930s

How? You don't seriously believe that the cost of such wasn't factored into the fare, do you?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting psa188 (Reply 29):

I tried to explain it above. Bag fees represent a degradation of a product that the airlines offered since the 1930s and people don't like to be nickel and dimed for things that should be included in the fare.

On the other side of that argument, if you can travel without a bag, why should the price of taking one be included in you ticket? This way you can pay for which services you need. No bags, one bag, its up to you, not decided by someone else.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 31):
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 13):
But for all practical aviation business purposes the EU is one market

Internally maybe... but people here often tend to forget that most of the world still views; and more importantly, contracts with; the EU as multiple different independently sovereign countries, not a single unified market.

It does not matter what peoples views are, the EU is both de jure and de facto a single market. All newer agreements regarding economical or business issues are between the EU and for example the USA not between the single countries of the EU and the USA. You only have to look at the EU - USA open sky agreement or the TTIP proposals.
There are bilateral air transport agreements in place between single EU countries and the UAE, but they predate the EU and the EU has not come around to them.

It is also convenient to disregard the EU/EEA market as a single market, when you want to declare the USA domestic market as the biggest and most competitive, and so on.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting phxtravelboy (Reply 25):
Good ole Joe. ALL this man does is bitch and moan about travel. Every article I've read by him in USAToday is nothing but complaints. I take everything he writes with a VERY small grain of salt.

  

Now that ME3 lobbying is in full swing, I wouldn't trust any such articles without proper disclosure about their affiliation(work or personal) with ME3.

Most "independent" entities in aviation have subscription services with airlines to manage reputation.

Interestingly employees of these "independent" entities are allowed to express their personal views to promote ME3 on social media.

If any reporter accepts freebies from airlines, their opinion is no good.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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kanban
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Americans, like all people the world over, want Whole Foods but want to pay for Walmart.

the entire post is good.

Americans are 1) never satisfied with what they claim they want. 2) saw a story the 1/3 of product complainers have never used the product but just want to "pile on". The same is probably true with airline complainers. I have heard people flying on complimentary first class tickets complaining loudly and viciously, yet when they are paying ride steerage quietly..
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 16):

It's not just the US...LCC's are successful everywhere, in fact, more successful than the legacy airlines. And talk about nickle and diming, mention Ryanair or Easyjet and let the vitriol fly.

Globally, for intra continental flights, the trend has been to cram more seats onto aircraft and offer less service.

EK is successful because of their virtual low cost international model...they just happen to cloak it in a nicer veneer, with decent in flight entertainment and consistently good service. Remember, EK are the ones who popularized the dreaded 10 abreast configuration on their 777's, and opened up many of their routes with cheaper, one stop in Dubai, fares.

It's easy to deride the service of the US3, but their domestic service is no worse than many airlines flying EU domestic. Every EU airline is trying their best to fly their way to the bottom with a LCC subfleet, where nickle and diming is the name of the game.

The US3 compete better with the rest on international flights, and their fares are often lower than foreign airlines to the same destination...and their planes are still mostly packed.

People get what they're willing to pay for...and the vast majority, everywhere, would rather pay peanuts and reserve the right to whine and moan when peanuts are exactly what they get.
What the...?
 
gkirk
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:16 pm

USA USA USA USA USA

Land of the free?

Aye right  
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Planesmart
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 26):
When we had full fare a 65% full airplane was profitable. Now?? A 75%LF might not be profitable. Passengers no longer care about amenities

Given US3 profitability now versus then, surely the reverse is correct?
 
Mir
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 33):
It does not matter what peoples views are, the EU is both de jure and de facto a single market.

Except when it helps the airlines to treat separate countries separately, then suddenly the whole "single market" thing goes away.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
psa188
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 31):
You don't seriously believe that the cost of such wasn't factored into the fare, do you?

Of course not. But until 2008, airlines charged an honest fare which included things like a reasonable checked bag allowance. We didn't have all of this nickel and diming. And people are putting up with it for the time being. Wonder what happens when the economy dives.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:42 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 33):
It does not matter what peoples views are, the EU is both de jure and de facto a single market.

Except when it helps the airlines to treat separate countries separately, then suddenly the whole "single market" thing goes away.

-Mir

Do you have a real world example?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:21 am

Quoting psa188 (Reply 40):
Wonder what happens when the economy dives.

They'll flock in larger numbers to G4/NK/F9/FR/AK/etc, and complain even louder.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13993
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 33):
It does not matter what peoples views are, the EU is both de jure and de facto a single market.

Uh, no. You do realize that many (if not most) countries do NOT have a single unified EU bilateral, and still view carriers and their rights by the individual nations, do you not?

That's one of the main reasons that the EU "mergers" are actually just board/stock aggregations that still leave two distinct airlines held by a single company, and NOT a unified airline operating under a single certification.



Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Except when it helps the airlines to treat separate countries separately, then suddenly the whole "single market" thing goes away.

      

And it's not just the aviation market, they do that with all manner of international interaction.


Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
Do you have a real world example?

Their extant individual bilaterals with most 3rd world countries, perhaps?

...or how about the single EU vote in the United Nations?
......or the single EU team to the Olympics?

Oops, sorry, couldn't leave those out  

[Edited 2015-03-16 00:03:39]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Mir
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
Do you have a real world example?

The stuff that Norwegian has tried to pull with putting their pilots into three separate companies based on the country where they live instead of having a single company for their single market. And they're not the only LCC to do that, just the most recent example.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 43):
heir extant individual bilaterals with most 3rd world countries, perhaps?

...or how about the single EU vote in the United Nations?
......or the single EU team to the Olympics?

These two are easy.

What has a single market to do with the vote at the United Nations?

What has the single market to do with the Olympics?

Regarding soccer the UK, clearly a country, operates as England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Nothing to do with a single market either but a reminder that sports run to a different tune, even Färör Islands have their own own non danish sports teams.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 43):
Uh, no. You do realize that many (if not most) countries do NOT have a single unified EU bilateral, and still view carriers and their rights by the individual nations, do you not?

And the EU is busy moving to EU wide bilaterals and/or amending bilaterals between member countries and third countries.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/...olicy/horizontal_agreements_en.htm
 
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par13del
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Except when it helps the airlines to treat separate countries separately, then suddenly the whole "single market" thing goes away.

UK APD which the Caribbean countries have complained about for years, unfortunately, the EU offered no help in the so called single market which allowed the UK to charge such rates.
Caribbean destinations like Barbados gets a higher rate than flights to Vegas because they can charge them, so said the minister.
Now the benevolent UK will be lowering the rates sometime in the future to "assist" the region which has suffered under the tax.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
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RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:27 am

I do see both sides of this EU marketplace issue. There is the whole question of sovereignty as well as what is perceived by the public and the defacto state of the marketplace. I think it is fair to say that the EU is TRYING to operate as one marketplace but is constrained on so many levels that it actually isn't achieving that goal. We have the EU-US openskies agreement which is EU wide yet we also have countries like the UK and Russia setting their own bilateral.

So internationally, the EU is trying to operate as a sole body with limited success. However, domestically, I think it is doing a great job and does operate as a single market. One only needs to point out FR to see this happen in practice (and Irish airline that is free to operate anywhere in the EU as it pleases with no constraint). Therefore, I would equate inter-EU travel as domestic US travel.

In no regard can the US be considered a more competitive marketplace than the EU as a result. Competition within the EU is brutal and something the US can aspire to. I would see no problem with calling the domestic US market an oligarchy- and the fares prove that.

EU airlines have had to adjust much more and quickly to the exponential increase in competition at home and abroad., yet the legacy carriers have still managed to keep service standards high compared to the US3. It does seem as if the EU3 give a higher standard of service for less price- which is where the whole US3 greed argument comes in etc. I would go so far as to say flying the US3 equates to a less value for money and more expensive experience than flying an EU3. This is why the American public are so angry about high prices. In the UK/Europe I have not seen ONE newspaper article about high air fare prices- why? Because the public knows that airfares are extraordinarily low and represent fantastic value for money within the EU; they know they have too much choice and we know they market can be at times, perhaps, too competative for some (Malev, Cyprus, Little Red etc).
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 46):
Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Except when it helps the airlines to treat separate countries separately, then suddenly the whole "single market" thing goes away.

UK APD which the Caribbean countries have complained about for years, unfortunately, the EU offered no help in the so called single market which allowed the UK to charge such rates.
Caribbean destinations like Barbados gets a higher rate than flights to Vegas because they can charge them, so said the minister.
Now the benevolent UK will be lowering the rates sometime in the future to "assist" the region which has suffered under the tax.

Nothing to do with the single market. There are lots of domestic markets were the states, as a division of a country, can level different taxes. Every airline operating flights from the UK has to pay the APD.
The charge is according to length of flight in miles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Passenger_Duty

I do not see discrimination according to destination.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Brancatelli Weighs In On Airline "Gulf War"

Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 47):
I do see both sides of this EU marketplace issue. There is the whole question of sovereignty as well as what is perceived by the public and the defacto state of the marketplace. I think it is fair to say that the EU is TRYING to operate as one marketplace but is constrained on so many levels that it actually isn't achieving that goal. We have the EU-US openskies agreement which is EU wide yet we also have countries like the UK and Russia setting their own bilateral.

I think it is a perception rather than fact, the single market is there. I know that the UK fights hard to be able to set their own rules, but seems to be hitting a stone wall. The complaint of the UK is not to little single market, but too much of it.
The four freedoms, as there are free transfer of goods, service, capital and people have been defended by tooth and nails by most EU countries.

The streamlining in the EU, and there including air transport agreements, is moving steadily forward and restrictions we knew of yesterday are gone today.

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