KLM Defers 787 Deliveries And Start Of New Routes

kl911 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:55 pm

According to a KLM spokesperson 2 of 10 787's on order will be deferred because of a breakdown in talks with unions. Also a few new destinations like Edmonton will not start in May as planned before.

Another example of Unions driving an airline into red ink. KLM warned that because of those unions they have to be very careful with spending money.

Source in Dutch: http://www.nu.nl/beurs/4012894/klm-stelt-levering-dreamliners.html

Sooner787 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:59 pm

I assume since the 1st few KLM 789's are already in pre-production,

this would involve the later frames in the order?

KarelXWB · Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 1):
this would involve the later frames in the order?

Correct. Delivery of first 787 is still scheduled for October.

par13del · Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Another example of Unions driving an airline into red ink. KLM warned that because of those unions they have to be very careful with spending money.

So the ME3 have no unions and that's bad, the EU carriers have unions and that's bad, what am I missing?

Does make you wonder how management can spend millions of dollars to purchase an a/c then cry problems when they cannot get an agreement to operate said a/c, perhaps they and their creditors did not think of such a trivial details before signing on the dotted line for the loans and the a/c.

A388 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
So the ME3 have no unions and that's bad, the EU carriers have unions and that's bad, what am I missing?

That's what I'm thinking too. Having a union or not having a union, what's better or worse?

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
Does make you wonder how management can spend millions of dollars to purchase an a/c then cry problems when they cannot get an agreement to operate said a/c, perhaps they and their creditors did not think of such a trivial details before signing on the dotted line for the loans and the a/c.

Generally you can't blame the airline for something that they didn't see coming when an order for brand new aircraft was placed several years ago. In this case I don't know whether KL could have foreseen their current situation coming a few years ago. AF/KL blame their worsening situation on the pilot strikes. How well they knew they were heading in this direction when they placed the 787 order I don't know so I will leave that open.

A388

Thenoflyzone · Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Also a few new destinations like Edmonton will not start in May as planned before.

called it a few months ago !

Just a few weeks or indefinitely? And whatever the answer, I highly doubt postponing YEG has anything to do with the Unions. Are they postponing Cali or Bogota ?

[Edited 2015-03-17 12:50:13]

par13del · Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
Generally you can't blame the airline for something that they didn't see coming when an order for brand new aircraft was placed several years ago.

My point was that they exist in a union environment, soliciting union agreement to operate the a/c should have gone hand in hand with the purchase decision, hope its not simply a case of management arrogance.
AA a few years ago had a similar situation when they opted to pursue Far East service without agreement from their pilots to operate the flights.

I may not agree with the power that staff have been given over major decisions, but it is what is in place and until it is gone you have to operate within the environment. The AF strike may well have played a part, but since the "owners" have been operating the companies somewhat separately, KL taking a major fall for AF transgressions seems harsh.
In any event, depending on the deferral and final number of a/c, it may not be too bad, however you know the saying about lost opportunities....

A388 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 6):
I may not agree with the power that staff have been given over major decisions, but it is what is in place and until it is gone you have to operate within the environment. The AF strike may well have played a part, but since the "owners" have been operating the companies somewhat separately, KL taking a major fall for AF transgressions seems harsh.

Yes, I agree with you on this. I also don't find that KL should take a major fall for AF transgressions if that indeed is the case.

A388

kl911 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 5):
Just a few weeks or indefinitely? And whatever the answer, I highly doubt postponing YEG has anything to do with the Unions. Are they postponing Cali or Bogota ?

I read an article which mentioned a number of 15 flights a week that will be cancelled/ not started.

FlyingHollander · Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:48 pm

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...soneel-over-zomerproductie-ver-weg (March 16th, Dutch only)

Apparently KL is facing a cabin crew shortage this summer. KL wants to improve productivity, however, they can't reach an agreement with the unions. This may result in the canceling of some (new) flights.

A388 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:54 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 9):
Apparently KL is facing a cabin crew shortage this summer.

Yes, I heard this on the radio but what caused this cabin crew shortage?

A388

Amsterdam · Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:36 pm

Not recruiting new cabin crew to fill up retirement positions.

loonytoon44 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:14 am

I am booked on the KLM flight from YEG on May 5th. I sure hope it isn't postponed.

flyb · Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 5):

I doubt it is cancelled , YEG is just easy to transfer passengers via us here in YYC or YVR. I've heard the route is looking good through summer. You just hate those guys up north don't ya.

Thenoflyzone · Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting flyb (Reply 13):
You just hate those guys up north don't ya.

Nahh...mine is a purely objective standpoint! With oil at 45$, its not hard to predict that KL might cancel or postpone YEG.

flyb · Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:53 am

Right. That's how you formulated you YEG predictions in the past as well when oil was much higher. I'm waiting to see the effects of that oil on our market as well. But we will see.

Thenoflyzone · Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:05 am

Which prediction are you talking about?

Thenoflyzone · Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting flyb (Reply 13):
YEG is just easy to transfer passengers via us here in YYC or YVR

Easier still to postpone Bogota and Cali and reroute via AF. And yet they still chose YEG.

[Edited 2015-03-17 18:17:13]

edmountain · Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting loonytoon44 (Reply 12):
I am booked on the KLM flight from YEG on May 5th. I sure hope it isn't postponed.

It's definitely postponed; source on KLM website is here.

http://news.klm.com/klm-is-postponin...-route-from-amsterdam-to-edmonton/

loonytoon44 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:41 am

Boo urns. Well route me through Calgary

harim · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Another example of Unions driving an airline into red ink. KLM warned that because of those unions they have to be very careful with spending money.

It is not so much the Unions but lost of traffic in Europe to LLC - and lost to Asia/Africa via the ME3.

The airline business model is changing - airlines which change, or have government protection, or both, will thrive.

The western EU airlines are more transparent - no hidden subsidies.

BA has LHR rights - which gives some protection.

loonytoon44 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:28 am

YEG postponed until May 19-2015

http://airlineroute.net/2015/03/18/kl-yeg-may15update2/

Thenoflyzone · Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:42 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 18):
It's definitely postponed; source on KLM website is here.

http://news.klm.com/klm-is-postponin...-route-from-amsterdam-to-edmonton/

They wouldn't issue a press release simply because they are delaying the launch by two weeks. Something else is at play here. I honestly think my gut feeling was correct and that they will indefinitely postpone YEG. We'll see in two weeks, as the press release mentions.

[Edited 2015-03-17 22:44:16]

lexer · Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:58 am

It's at least partially a tactic to pressure the unions and directly link their stance with KLM's operations.

AF/KL's productivity must improve to have any chance of competing. Surely the unions are a drag to productivity improvements, even though their representation of worker's rights is entirely legitimate.

yowza · Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
So the ME3 have no unions and that's bad, the EU carriers have unions and that's bad, what am I missing?

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
That's what I'm thinking too. Having a union or not having a union, what's better or worse?

It's a circular problem. If greed up top wasn't so rife the unions would likely be more reasonable. Although it will not be a popular position I think the way things have shaken out in Canada recently are a good compromise: unions and executives at AC keep each other in check while the government occasionally intervenes with back to work legislation to keep things ticking along.

Quoting lexer (Reply 23):

It's at least partially a tactic to pressure the unions and directly link their stance with KLM's operations.

YOWza

edmountain · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):
They wouldn't issue a press release simply because they are delaying the launch by two weeks. Something else is at play here. I honestly think my gut feeling was correct and that they will indefinitely postpone YEG. We'll see in two weeks, as the press release mentions.

FWIW I'm booked on the May 21 flight and they have not yet contacted me about rebooking.

Certainly odd that they would issue a press release if it is just to be a two-week delay. Lots of media in Edmonton have picked up the story and the subsequent fear and doubt will not help bookings later in the summer.

kl911 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:15 pm

Update : KLM confirms now 22 weekly frequencies being cancelled. Besides the mentioned Edmonton flights it will affect flights to/from Rio, Bangkok, Nairobi, Toronto and a few not disclosed Chinese destinations.

[Edited 2015-03-18 08:25:36]

bahadir · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Another example of Unions driving an airline into red ink. KLM warned that because of those unions they have to be very careful with spending money.

Typical a.net mentality. You probably have no idea why the unions were striking anyway. Their jobs are being farmed out to Transavia. Typical WalMartisation of air travel like we have seen here in the USA at the beginning of the century.

kl911 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 27):
Typical a.net mentality. You probably have no idea why the unions were striking anyway. Their jobs are being farmed out to Transavia. Typical WalMartisation of air travel like we have seen here in the USA at the beginning of the century.

No it's not, and it's not about a strike. It's about not reaching a new agreement between KLM and the Unions. KLM staff will have to work harder for the same salary. KLM claims its staff need to work 20% more for their pay to have the same costbase as competitors. I think this is logic.
And don't feel bad, the pay in Holland is one of the highest in the EU.

Anyway, if there wont be an agreement on working more hours there will be a crew shortage, hence the cancellations in May and possibly beyond that.

JRadier · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 27):
Typical a.net mentality. You probably have no idea why the unions were striking anyway. Their jobs are being farmed out to Transavia.

Typical a.net mentality. You clearly have no idea why the unions were striking anyway. KLM wants more productivity from their cabin crew.

Hope you can appreciate the irony here... Oh, and just to make sure it's not my idea, see http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...-meer-vluchten-vanwege-cao-impasse for a source (in Dutch).

par13del · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting harim (Reply 20):
The western EU airlines are more transparent - no hidden subsidies.

Hhhmmmm, not a road we want to go down.

Quoting harim (Reply 20):
BA has LHR rights - which gives some protection.

One of the protections BA has is that the primary airport is constrained allowing them to have open skies with anyone who ask, after all, being granted access to LHR is one thing, getting a slot to use is a totally different story.
Unfortunately, on the continent they did have some infrastructure upgrades, but until they start taking sufficient traffic from LHR that it becomes "unhideable" the authorities will maintain the defacto protections.

DTWPurserBoy · Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:05 pm

DL did the same thing with their initial 777 order. When they could not come to an agreement with the pilots on pay rates they cancelled the order. Later a new order was placed for the aircraft now in service.

Stitch · Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:08 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 31):
DL did the same thing with their initial 777 order. When they could not come to an agreement with the pilots on pay rates they cancelled the order. Later a new order was placed for the aircraft now in service.

As did Air Canada.

par13del · Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
As did Air Canada.

Did AA have a similar issue with the China flights?

frigatebird · Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):

According to a KLM spokesperson 2 of 10 787's on order will be deferred because of a breakdown in talks with unions

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 31):

DL did the same thing with their initial 777 order. When they could not come to an agreement with the pilots on pay rates they cancelled the order. Later a new order was placed for the aircraft now in service.

Hmm, not too sure the AF/KL group actually deferred any delivery. AF will get their 787s much sooner than planned, most likely they shifted some KL slots to AF.
First reports were KL would receive 9 787s in 2016, along with 2 more 77W's. Quite ambitions for an airline like KLM, as they admitted themselves. So now it seems KL will get 10 instead of 13 787s directly on order with Boeing. I guess they still are to receive the 10 787s leased from Aercap as well, so the split will be 20 787s for KL and 15 for AF. It may also mean KL will get 3 more A350s than the originally planned 7. So, 20 787s and 10 A350s for KL, and 15 787s and 15 A350s for AF. Sounds plausible.

vv701 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 30):
One of the protections BA has is that the primary airport is constrained allowing them to have open skies with anyone who ask, after all, being granted access to LHR is one thing, getting a slot to use is a totally different story.

BA themselves demonstrate that obtaining new LHR slots is not so difficult as is often thought.

They are at somewhat of a disadvantage as the EU Slot Distribution Regulations require that newcomers are given preference in slot allocation at European slot controlled airports to improve competition. Nevertheless BA has managed to increase its LHR weekly slot holding every year since the slot coordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd first published detailed figures prior to the start of Summer Season 2003.

Here are their numbers for BA weekly slots prior to the start of each Summer Season:

2003: 3,602
2004: 3,744
2005: 3,780
2006: 3,788
2007: 3,829
2008: 3,950
2009: 3,976
2010: 4,028
2011: 4,040
2012: 4,198
2013: 4,825 (including former BD slots)
2014: 4,898

But even if this BA continuous slot growth from 39.1 per cent to 51.2 per cent of all LHR slots over this period is ignored there is another more relevant factor. Remember that LON comprises LGW, LTN and STN as well as LHR. So a low cost flight from either LGW or STN is very capable of competing with LHR for LON O&D business. This has been clearly demonstrated over the years by both FR and U2 on short-haul flights and by EK on long-haul flights.

Indeed with two of the strongest and longest established European LCCs having their largest base at LON it is clear that rather being protected from competition by so-called fortress-LHR, they have been exposed to the sort of LCC competition now being faced by some other European legacy carriers for 15 or more years.

JoeCanuck · Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:54 pm

It seems to me that if an airline is going to cut an international flight to Alberta, it's usually YEG before YYC. For anybody not in the immediate catchment area, and those connecting, YYC is no more effort than YEG, and having the most traffic of the two, YYC is the one most likely to keep routes.

For people flying in from the north, it's only 10 or 15 minutes longer to fly to YYC. Nobody will notice or care if they are transferring.

It's the passengers from the Edmonton area who lose out on this one...and according to KLM, there just aren't enough people from Edmonton, flying to or from AMS to justify two flights to Alberta.

loonytoon44 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:50 pm

I was REBOOKED... fly through Calgary on the departing flight and through the US on my return flight...positive is I get to fly on KLM 777 out of YYC. But an 8 hour layover in Amsterdam I guess isn't that bad either.

par13del · Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 35):
BA themselves demonstrate that obtaining new LHR slots is not so difficult as is often thought.

Which just adds to the intrigue.......

Quoting VV701 (Reply 35):
Remember that LON comprises LGW, LTN and STN as well as LHR. So a low cost flight from either LGW or STN is very capable of competing with LHR for LON O&D business.

....and with all that all the major carriers still want to get to LHR and are not too interested in the other London airports, some even go to Manchester instead.

76er · Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:30 pm

KLM and its cabincrew unions have put their differences aside for now, resulting in flights to YEG starting on may 19th, two weeks later than originally planned.

flyb · Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:03 pm

Good to hear for YEG. Was talking to contacts up there, and the route apparently has strong bookings through summer. Best of luck to KLM and YEG on this route.

bmacleod · Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Also a few new destinations like Edmonton will not start in May as planned before.

I kept wondering if YEG didn't quite have the market needed to launch KL service. Good to hear its still going ahead, though at a later date...

Is Red Deer closer to YEG or YYC, or exactly right in between?

For KL passengers wanting to visit Red Deer or residents wanting to connect to a KL flight....

[Edited 2015-03-28 10:15:34]

Viscount724 · Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 41):
Is Red Deer closer to YEG or YYC, or exactly right in between?

Almost exactly the same distance to/from the city centers (and YYC/YEG airports). No more than 5 or 6 km difference.

[Edited 2015-03-28 10:27:04]

bogota · Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:47 pm

20 years after leaving Colombia KL 745 is on its way with its first return flight to BOG.

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