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mayor
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 6):
Paying customers want a quality product and a better level of service.

Sorry, but at least in the U.S., it has been shown that paying customers look at price, first.......then the rest follows.

When was the last time that you travelled on DL, AA or UA or have you ever? Has it been in the last 5-10 years. Has it been since DL, for example, has refurbished the interiors of almost the entire fleet?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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par13del
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting Enilria (Reply 5):
I think the US3 will have a harder argument after stratospheric 1Q earnings.

Why, their primary market generating profits is domestic which the ME3 does not compete, heck, they could be claiming that that they cannot break into the international marketplace because of ME3 subsidies.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
Sorry, but at least in the U.S., it has been shown that paying customers look at price, first.......then the rest follows.

I'd say that's a pretty big generalization especially for business travelers. It's certainly not a justification for complacently striving for mediocrity.

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
When was the last time that you travelled on DL, AA or UA or have you ever? Has it been in the last 5-10 years. Has it been since DL, for example, has refurbished the interiors of almost the entire fleet?

I've lived in the US for the last 14 years and fly about 120k miles a year domestically and internationally. I have 1.5 million miles on United and about 250k combined on both Delta and AA. I've flown on Delta half a dozen times in the last 12 months and made 7 international trips on various airlines during the same time frame. Please let me know if that's enough experience for me to have the right to an opinion Mayor?
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 53):
Once you've to DXB a couple of times it gets old.

I'd say airports in general are boring to me. I head to the lounge and camp there. But my fiancee has the complete opposite opinion. And that's because she doesn't travel as much as me. And I suspect the general public opinion is closer to her than me.

For frequent travelers, it doesn't matter if it's DXB or LHR or CDG or SIN, they don't care about the airport. They head to the lounge, whip out their laptop, grab a beer and get to work (or surf the net mindlessly).

For the infrequent travelers, the shopping can be a solid distraction. And on this front, I suspect that DXB is a whole lot better than many other airports I've been to.

Quoting yowza (Reply 53):
For that reason simply writing off something you haven't even read is a bit aggressive...

I've read it. I was genuinely interested to see if they had something new. Or the proverbial "smoking gun." Nothing. It's a regurgitation of a lot of newspaper articles. Mind you, it's all concisely collated and compiled to sell their storyline. But nothing new. For that reason, I find the optimism for the US3's proponents a bit misplaced.

Then again, it's all about public posturing and selling the public the story. So who knows..... The court of public opinion, doesn't have as high a bar....
 
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thekorean
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 55):

When you look at the rise of carriers like NK you cannot say it is a generalization.
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 57):
When you look at the rise of carriers like NK you cannot say it is a generalization.

And yet, Europe has FR, U2, etc. And their airlines aren't dropping standards. And on the international long-haul market, there's certainly not much discount carrier competition to worry about.
 
bgm
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 55):
I've lived in the US for the last 14 years and fly about 120k miles a year domestically and internationally. I have 1.5 million miles on United and about 250k combined on both Delta and AA. I've flown on Delta half a dozen times in the last 12 months and made 7 international trips on various airlines during the same time frame. Please let me know if that's enough experience for me to have the right to an opinion Mayor?

Your opinion is only valid to him if you are an unadulterated widgetphile.  

Internationally at least, the US airlines have a horrible reputation, which is not entirely undeserved. I've experienced everything from mediocre indifference to occasional downright hostility from the FAs.

Most folks I know would fly a non-US carrier if they had the choice.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 50):
If that was the case, deals such as NAFTA could easily have been shredded in court.

So, you are saying NAFTA was never litigated.

Quoting bgm (Reply 59):
Internationally at least, the US airlines have a horrible reputation, which is not entirely undeserved.

That is individual passenger's decision. Neither you nor Sir Harry Potter are saviors of American public.

Well pressed red coats and shiny boots didn't impress Americans, what makes to think shiny planes will impress them.

Quoting bgm (Reply 59):
I've experienced everything from mediocre indifference to occasional downright hostility from the FAs.

Prozac has different side effects based on age. Older get grumpy and young cannot stop smiling. Both are not good IMHO. Always smiling is not a good sign.

[Edited 2015-03-18 11:31:51]
All posts are just opinions.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:29 pm

Or What?? He's going to keep his airplanes at HOME?? Now who is That going to hurt?
 
futureorthopod
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:29 pm

From now on when I fly internationally I will be flying an international carrier. Service is generally far superior. I could care less about the bickering.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:31 pm

Well? The question IS?? Has he Proven anything? And if NOT? Where is the proof? Can WE see it?!?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 63):
Well? The question IS?? Has he Proven anything? And if NOT? Where is the proof? Can WE see it?!?

HAS the US3 proved ANYTHING?!?!? When CAN we SEE it??!!??!!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 57):
When you look at the rise of carriers like NK you cannot say it is a generalization.


Certainly price matters for the domestic US leisure traveler market and the product has been limited accordingly. I would disagree however that this satisfies business travelers and international travelers (especially those who connect at a hubs from other countries for onward travel within the USA).

Quoting YTZ (Reply 58):
And yet, Europe has FR, U2, etc. And their airlines aren't dropping standards. And on the international long-haul market, there's certainly not much discount carrier competition to worry about.


Correct.

On the direct and connecting International routes the quality of the product and service are much more important and many international carriers significantly exceed the product/service standards of the US3. Why else do the the US3 care so much about the ME3?

[Edited 2015-03-18 11:37:05]
 
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glideslope
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:12 pm

This thread should really be moved to the Political Section. Not much information in here.   
"To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
strfyr51
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 25):
Dunno why he demanded an apology. If it was me, I would have sued for libel.
After they specifically dropped the ball on that ICD Letter of Credit in their dossier, EK now has grounds for a libel suit.

Well that's a great idea! Come to American Courts and Sue for Libel !! That way we can all see the REAL Allegations,
Find out Where the USA-3 GOT the report, And Tim Clark can clear the air.
if MESSR's Anderson, Smisek, and Parker will tell us where the data came from ...
Because I'll BET it was given TO them to try and cut in on the ME3's "hustle" in 5th Freedom flying because where they are?
They can't make any money Unless they use their 5th freedom.as they can't muster a full plane load from their Home Country..
So they may be cutting in on BA's, AF's and LH's "Hustle" on Trans Atlantic flying.
Right now they're pitching Fare sales from the USA. If the USA-3 can Keep them pitching fare sales permanently to gain customers like "We give More for LESS"
Then the strategy can work to the point that the ME3 can't EVER make a profit and all their flights will be flown at a loss. So. Let's see they've already got 1 law suit from the lady holding a Passport from Isreal on a Trans-Atlantic Flight.
So it's unlikely the Jewish population from the US is going to fly them... I read somewhere that one of them wanted women and Men separated
( and they don't like mini-skirts, which is totally crazy on it's face.)
Meanwhile? They Have no connecting feed traffic unless they join an alliance (which actually would share the revenue with one of the US3 carriers).
They Can't buy any airline in the USA without the USA-3 climbing up their "wazoo".
And? The Majors can eventually put the Squeeze on them. What can they really do??
Damn I love a good conspiracy!! I say?? Take it to court and come in with your Legal Guns Blazing..
You never Know. They might Win!! (I doubt it though..)
 
bgm
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 67):
Well that's a great idea! Come to American Courts and Sue for Libel !! That way we can all see the REAL Allegations,
Find out Where the USA-3 GOT the report, And Tim Clark can clear the air.
if MESSR's Anderson, Smisek, and Parker will tell us where the data came from ...
Because I'll BET it was given TO them to try and cut in on the ME3's "hustle" in 5th Freedom flying because where they are?
They can't make any money Unless they use their 5th freedom.as they can't muster a full plane load from their Home Country..
So they may be cutting in on BA's, AF's and LH's "Hustle" on Trans Atlantic flying.
Right now they're pitching Fare sales from the USA. If the USA-3 can Keep them pitching fare sales permanently to gain customers like "We give More for LESS"
Then the strategy can work to the point that the ME3 can't EVER make a profit and all their flights will be flown at a loss. So. Let's see they've already got 1 law suit from the lady holding a Passport from Isreal on a Trans-Atlantic Flight.
So it's unlikely the Jewish population from the US is going to fly them... I read somewhere that one of them wanted women and Men separated
( and they don't like mini-skirts, which is totally crazy on it's face.)
Meanwhile? They Have no connecting feed traffic unless they join an alliance (which actually would share the revenue with one of the US3 carriers).
They Can't buy any airline in the USA without the USA-3 climbing up their "wazoo".
And? The Majors can eventually put the Squeeze on them. What can they really do??
Damn I love a good conspiracy!! I say?? Take it to court and come in with your Legal Guns Blazing..
You never Know. They might Win!! (I doubt it though..)

Yet again, I have absolutely no idea what you're rattling on about. I certainly can't fault you for consistency in the quality of your posts though.  
 
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scbriml
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 68):
They can't make any money Unless they use their 5th freedom.as they can't muster a full plane load from their Home Country..

If you honestly believe this, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Quoting bgm (Reply 68):
Yet again, I have absolutely no idea what you're rattling on about.

Ah, it's not just me then.

Quoting bgm (Reply 68):
I certainly can't fault you for consistency in the quality of your posts though.

Slam-dunk!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Planesmart
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
I've been very happy with DL's transatlantic product of late - it's a very competitive one.

But have you tried any of DL's non-US competition? Have you flown further internationally than TATL?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
Airlines generally pay for their own operational costs in the US. We can debate a few pennies of subsidy on the now $1.5T in airline revenue after 9/11 within the USA.

Don't all Federal and State employees fly exclusively on US3 wherever possible? Another subsidy?
 
caleb1
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 6):
The US3 need to quit whining, step up, and provide a product that holds water on the global stage. Nowhere in US industry is customer satisfaction less sought after and mediocrity more accepted than in the US Airline industry. It's time they become better at what they do. Profitable mediocrity is not the flag they want to be flying. Cost cutting and low gas prices can only take them so far.

Very, Very, Very well said!! I could not agree with you more. It's time for US carriers to step up to the plate and improve their game. It really is a shame though that here in the US, there is no real incentive for air carriers to offer great customer service. We are now in the age of "unbundling", and "right-sizing." It is extremely sad to have reached the point when airlines like Spirit and Allegiant have set the accepted standard for onboard customer experience. We might complain and complain about their service, yet we whole-heartedly support them. Why an airline like United can't even offer their customers a small bag of peanuts or pretzels with a beverage is beyond me! They are laying off employees when there is no demonstrated need to do so, all in the name of appeasing the gods of Wall St. I have NO sympathy for the US3. NONE!! Lest I forget however, that the traveling public has been accepting lousy service for a very long time, but I guess the service is not lousy enough to stop supporting it. Ok, rant over.

[Edited 2015-03-18 13:02:26]
 
surfdog75
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 68):
Very, Very, Very well said!! I could not agree with you more. It's time for US carriers to step up to the plate and improve their game. It really is a shame though that here in the US, there is no real incentive for air carriers to offer great customer service. We are now in the age of "unbundling", and "right-sizing." It is extremely sad to have reached the point when airlines like Spirit and Allegiant have set the accepted standard for onboard customer experience. We might complain and complain about their service, yet we whole-heartedly support them. Why an airline like United can't even offer their customers a small bag of peanuts or pretzels with a beverage is beyond me! They are laying off employees when there is no demonstrated need to do so, all in the name of appeasing the gods of Wall St. I have NO sympathy for the US3. NONE!! Lest I forget however, that the traveling public has been accepting lousy service for a very long time, but I guess the service is not lousy enough to stop supporting it. Ok, rant over.

Spirit and Allegiant don't set the standard for anything. They cater to people who probably would have driven, taken a bus, or not gone on a trip at all. The US airlines, especially the big 4, are a national asset in my opinion. They provide safe, clean, reasonably priced transportation to the majority of the population. Most offer a fantastic product especially on longer haul flights, and......they do it by buying their own airplanes and paying local employees a decent wage with a good quality of life. State-sponsored entities have no business with 5 freedom rights in the US. This will eventually take care of itself as the US carriers hire as many cockpit crew members as possible. They grew with the world-wide glut of airline pilots as others carriers shrunk, furloughed and didn't hire. The tables have turned now.

[Edited 2015-03-18 13:46:20]

[Edited 2015-03-18 13:48:47]
 
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thekorean
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 68):

With demand for low fares and high costs and taxes this is probably the best US3 can do.

They can only do so much with what they are given.

Maybe its consumers that needs to stop being ignorant and selfish.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:00 pm

Children must play dumb games. Maybe all parties need a good spanking.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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mayor
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 52):
I've lived in the US for the last 14 years and fly about 120k miles a year domestically and internationally. I have 1.5 million miles on United and about 250k combined on both Delta and AA. I've flown on Delta half a dozen times in the last 12 months and made 7 international trips on various airlines during the same time frame. Please let me know if that's enough experience for me to have the right to an opinion Mayor?

How nice......now at least we know the timeline. I just wanted to make sure you had flown on DL since all the upgrades, etc. Now, having said that, what in particular has you all in a tizzy regarding DL's int'l. service?

Quoting bgm (Reply 56):
Internationally at least, the US airlines have a horrible reputation, which is not entirely undeserved. I've experienced everything from mediocre indifference to occasional downright hostility from the FAs.

Most folks I know would fly a non-US carrier if they had the choice.

Logically, this doesn't follow. Why would the US3 spend money on new a/c, refurbished interiors, upgraded facilities if all they're looking at is the bottom line? Why not save all that money and they could all emulate Spirit?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:27 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 70):
Maybe its consumers that needs to stop being ignorant and selfish.

That argument has never worked. Consumer "selfishness" is the basis of economics. Self-interest and all that....

The counter to your argument is that airline shareholders need to stop being selfish and allow lower margins so that their CEOs' can reinvest and offer better services. DL has a 9% margin. EK has a 4% margin.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:45 pm

Oh God! - Jehovah, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Odin or whichever - can you please stop with the histrionics?!?!

Sir Tim is merely stating his confidence in proving EK has not received subsidies - and an apology after proving one's innocence isn't too hard a pill to swallow surely - yeah right!!

What I find interesting is that EK's innocence has somehow become contingent on the airline to prove; doesn't U.S. law provide that guilt has to be proven and innocence assumed until that point?

Anyhow, he's proving quite ebullient and bullish on the outcome favouring his emirate's meg-carrier (see what I did there?).
come visit the south pacific
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 73):
That argument has never worked. Consumer "selfishness" is the basis of economics. Self-interest and all that....

What happens if every American stops using US3.

They will file C11 again.

Only difference, this time they will

Dump remaining old aircraft. (In hindsight they should have done it in earlier C11s)
Dump remaining employees.
Dump remaining pension obligations.

Buy all new planes(non-Boeing/Airbus),
Hire young crew.

After million+ job losses.

US3 will be more profitable, higher cash reserves and management will have bigger bonus checks.

That is the result of individual selfish cheap ticket mindset.
All posts are just opinions.
 
DAL763ER
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 6):
The US3 need to quit whining, step up, and provide a product that holds water on the global stage. Nowhere in US industry is customer satisfaction less sought after and mediocrity more accepted than in the US Airline industry. It's time they become better at what they do. Profitable mediocrity is not the flag they want to be flying. Cost cutting and low gas prices can only take them so far.

I beg to differ. Consumers need to quit whining and get with the times. Flying is like riding a bus - its purpose is to get from point A to point B, not to get great food (unless you pay for it), a comfortable seat (unless you pay for it), booze (unless you pay for it). US carriers went the economical way - give consumers what they pay for. Simple business. Why should they cut into their profits when all most fliers care about is how many cents they can save on their trip? Ultimate frequent fliers who are loyal or pay the big bucks will get the benefits, and that makes total sense.

I was having a conversation with two coworkers. One of them is (let's call him Tom), like me, into airplanes and has status with UA. The other, non-aviation inclined, average consumer (let's call him Joe). Tom said he is flying UA next week to keep his status this year. Joe, on the other hand, made a comment - "Just fly the cheapest that aligns with your schedule.". This is exactly what US3 knows.

That ME3 has better service than US3 and EU3 is just temporary. If oil goes down the drain and flying becomes expensive, they'll start cutting down, I'm sure. Airlines are not charities.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 77):
That ME3 has better service than US3 and EU3 is just temporary. If oil goes down the drain and flying becomes expensive, they'll start cutting down, I'm sure. Airlines are not charities.

Even if they have all the money, they will go down rather quickly if this bully behavior doesn't change. Their entire business plan depends on ASAs and bullying is the last thing they should be doing.

ASA allocations are drying up rather quickly for EK and QR throughout the world.

India - No means No.
Philippines - Officially kicked them out (First country in the world)
South Africa - Sued and lost the case, but keeping an eye on EK
China - ASA application lost in China Post
Germany - 200 x A380NEO dangling carrot. We will know in a month

The only market left is Africa. EXIM can sell lot of WBs to ET and KQ to cover that market.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 77):
Consumers need to quit whining and get with the times.

You've reiterated my point that "Nowhere in US industry is customer satisfaction less sought after and mediocrity more accepted than in the US Airline industry."
 
DAL763ER
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 79):
You've reiterated my point that "Nowhere in US industry is customer satisfaction less sought after and mediocrity more accepted than in the US Airline industry."

Yes and no. I mean, you are perfectly right. But at the same time, I don't think it's "accepted". Consumers' expectation is that airlines are glamorous and they would find it totally normal for airlines to make a loss and offer them hot food, 2 checked bags and an amenity kit on their $300 transcon Y ticket. Most people have no clue what they're talking about and are even envious at those that pay x times more for a J/F ticket.

I was fortunate to have BA status last year and I can't count the number of times I've gotten looks or comments from people as I "skipped" the line for priority boarding (on BA/AA). It's hard not to comment "Uhm...how much have you spent on this airline in the past year?"...
 
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scbriml
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 78):
Philippines - Officially kicked them out (First country in the world)

They have? That's odd, I have no problem booking flights to Manila on EK.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 79):

Service is supposedly mediocre because US3 have to cut costs to slash ticket price and still make money.

US3 are not charity its their job to make as much as possible. Not the case with ME3.
 
pjc747
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:31 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 82):
Service is supposedly mediocre because US3 have to cut costs to slash ticket price and still make money.

US3 are not charity its their job to make as much as possible. Not the case with ME3.

Precisely. As my father and all the airline pilots I know say it. Fact is, the US3 also have to compete with Southwest, Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, Virgin America (which in ways is foreign owned), JetBlue, Alaska, and others for the same domestic market, plus with all the airlines of the world which are free to fly to the United States, where there isn't one airport (i.e. DXB), but there's JFK, NWR, LAX, SFO, DTW, ATL, SEA, IAD, ORD and others to be served. That is a massive, complex market where so many airlines are competing for business, and where most people are looking for the lowest price possible, or what they think is the lowest price. Emirates flies out of DXB to the world, and back. Qatar from DOH and Etihad from AUH. Much simpler, and they are the sole service to many destinations and provide connection to their cities.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 74):
What I find interesting is that EK's innocence has somehow become contingent on the airline to prove; doesn't U.S. law provide that guilt has to be proven and innocence assumed until that point?

Under the United States Justice System, you are innocent until proven guilty but need a very good lawyer and a fat wallet to avoid being found guilty.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
David_itl
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 83):
. Much simpler, and they are the sole service to many destinations and provide connection to their cities.

Is this the same EK operating out of DXB which has 140 airlines serving it and 270 destinations available? EK flies to 142 destinations so roughly 52.6% of DXB routes have EK on them.

DXB handled 70,475,636 last year with EK having approx 45 million on them. Roughly 63.8% of the passengers.

Hardly a massively dominating force. Perhaps one of our American friends can do a similar exercise for DL at ATL for comparative purposes (and include all the regionals who fly for them as if DL sees fit to have them fly in their colours, it's only natural for passengers to think they are on DL).
 
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mayor
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 73):
The counter to your argument is that airline shareholders need to stop being selfish and allow lower margins so that their CEOs' can reinvest and offer better services. DL has a 9% margin. EK has a 4% margin.

I'm curious......who ARE EK's shareholders as compared to who DL's shareholders are?


Everyone says that the US3 CEO's need to reinvest and offer better services. I seem to remember that DL, for one, has invested a ton of money in the last 5 years, on refurbishment, facilities, a/c, etc. Is that what you're talking about, but for some reason, missing? They also invested in their employees, in the form of profit sharing.
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zkojq
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:31 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 25):
Nothing like having the court force AfFS to print full page retractions in the New York Times, Wall St. Journal, etc.

That would be hilarious! Terribly embarrassing.

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 38):
You know, I bet they get foodstuffs grown in the United States in the UAE, maybe he wants an apology for the subsidies which allow U.S. farmers to grow enough surplus to export.

Wow. We've really started clutching at straws, haven't we?

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 74):
What I find interesting is that EK's innocence has somehow become contingent on the airline to prove; doesn't U.S. law provide that guilt has to be proven and innocence assumed until that point?

That's what it comes down to. The US3 have made a lot of noise, but haven't proved anything against EK.

For those interested, Emirates has more than a decade of annual reports on their website. Might be worth taking a read. Even signed by auditors (PWC in the most recent case).

http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/engl...h/facts-figures/annual-report.aspx

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 78):
EXIM can sell lot of WBs to ET and KQ to cover that market.
KQ and ET didn't like their 77Ws as they were struggling to fill them, according to this website at least.

[Edited 2015-03-18 20:32:07]

[Edited 2015-03-18 20:45:21]
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pjc747
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:14 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 87):
Wow. We've really started clutching at straws, haven't we?

Haha well Tim Clark, sorry, Sir Timothy Charles Clark KBE has made accusations of subsidies in the U.S., so if they are true about U.S. airlines, which if anything is the opposite due to inefficient government airline policy, then surely he objects to other U.S. subsidies as well.  
Quoting david_itl (Reply 85):
Is this the same EK operating out of DXB which has 140 airlines serving it and 270 destinations available? EK flies to 142 destinations so roughly 52.6% of DXB routes have EK on them.

DXB handled 70,475,636 last year with EK having approx 45 million on them. Roughly 63.8% of the passengers.

Hardly a massively dominating force. Perhaps one of our American friends can do a similar exercise for DL at ATL for comparative purposes (and include all the regionals who fly for them as if DL sees fit to have them fly in their colours, it's only natural for passengers to think they are on DL).



You missed my entire point. Emirates market is based off one airport to the country, er, Emirate, whose flag they fly and serve, which is not a complex issue (I grant running an airline is complicated, but you know what I mean). Let's take just Delta as an example. Atlanta handled about 94,500,000 passengers in 2013, of which Delta's share of traffic was 60%, equaling 56,700,000 in one year, in one airport. Now DXB handled 70,500,000 in 2014, of which Emirates is 64% share, which is 45,120,000 in one year. Therefore, DL alone handles 11,580,000 more passengers in one year, in one airport, than Emirates handles total. So if we take the fact that the US3 are competing with a great many aforementioned smaller carriers (in my earlier post) in a great many airports just domestically, let alone internationally, I would say the Emirates has it very easy.

Now Etihad and Emirates may compete for traffic, but Qatari traffic is likely independent to a significant degree. So the ME3 only handle international travel, and each of the musketeers have but one main hub, whereas Delta has 13, United has 9, and American has 5. So the US3 have to deal with both domestic and international travel, a much more massive market base, far more competitors, far more airports, and far fewer destinations. Because of domestic travel, the US3 must have a great variety of aircraft in their fleet, many more being narrowbodies whose short routes are less efficient, and require more total crew, and coupled on all of this must do it in a relatively strict regulatory environment with the most despised security force (TSA) anywhere and with laws that actually prevent discrimination, whereas at least Qatar, and most likely Etihad and Emirates can pay very cheap wages and poor working conditions. And unlike the US3, the ME3 aren't expected to be charities.
 
snasteve
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:28 am

Is Sir Tim Clark anything at all like Piers Morgan? Hopefully not or it won’t go well for Emirates.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 88):
Haha well Tim Clark, sorry, Sir Timothy Charles Clark KBE has made accusations of subsidies in the U.S., so if they are true about U.S. airlines, which if anything is the opposite due to inefficient government airline policy, then surely he objects to other U.S. subsidies as well.

And if his accusations about subsidies in the US can be proven false I wonder if he will make an apology - the same kind of apology that he expects  
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:18 am

Quoting david_itl (Reply 85):
Is this the same EK operating out of DXB which has 140 airlines serving it and 270 destinations available?

Yes, it is the same one airport and two plane airline.

Quoting snasteve (Reply 89):
Is Sir Tim Clark anything at all like Piers Morgan? Hopefully not or it won’t go well for Emirates.

Its the combination of knighthood and years of slave management, makes one talk to peers like this.

I hope EK owners are noticing whats going on. They need to replace few layers of management to regain confidence. I am sure there have well capable natives to replace them.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 91):

If anyone else understands what on earth this post means, please could you explain it to me?
 
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enzo011
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 88):
Now Etihad and Emirates may compete for traffic, but Qatari traffic is likely independent to a significant degree. So the ME3 only handle international travel, and each of the musketeers have but one main hub, whereas Delta has 13, United has 9, and American has 5. So the US3 have to deal with both domestic and international travel, a much more massive market base, far more competitors, far more airports, and far fewer destinations. Because of domestic travel, the US3 must have a great variety of aircraft in their fleet, many more being narrowbodies whose short routes are less efficient, and require more total crew, and coupled on all of this must do it in a relatively strict regulatory environment with the most despised security force (TSA) anywhere and with laws that actually prevent discrimination, whereas at least Qatar, and most likely Etihad and Emirates can pay very cheap wages and poor working conditions. And unlike the US3, the ME3 aren't expected to be charities.

Off course the ME3 competes against each other. They fly to mostly the same destination on a one-stop basis. If anything EY and QR might not compete on all routes, but EK competes against both on their routes, either on its own or both at the same time. You are correct that the ME3 doesn't have a domestic market like the US3, this is a huge advantage to the US3 over the ME3 and one of the reasons that they have a higher margin.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 82):
Service is supposedly mediocre because US3 have to cut costs to slash ticket price and still make money.

US3 are not charity its their job to make as much as possible. Not the case with ME3.

The US3 also have higher margins and bigger profits than the ME3. So they cut costs and ticket prices and service, yet still made billions. Loser - consumer.
 
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yowza
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:07 pm



Quoting david_itl (Reply 85):
Is this the same EK operating out of DXB which has 140 airlines serving it and 270 destinations available? EK flies to 142 destinations so roughly 52.6% of DXB routes have EK on them.

EK put a statement out with all of this a couple years ago - http://cdn.ek.aero/english/images/ai...0position%20new_tcm233-845771.pdf. It sounds great but a quick scratch of the surface of slide 21 raises eyebrows.

Of the 142 there are:

Cargo-only carriers (19) including one that operates as Emirates Sky Cargo:
ACG Air
Cargo Germany
AeroLogic
Air Transport International
Atlas Air (operates for EK)
Cargo Italia
CargoLux
CargoLux Italia
Coyne Airways
DHL International E.C
EPL Fzco
Expo Aviation
Falcon Express Cargo Airlines
Federal Express
Jade Cargo International
National Air Cargo
Rus Aviation LLC
TNT Airways
United Parcel Service

Private Jet Only Services (2):
Eastern Skyjets
Global Jet

Charter Carriers without regular/seasonal scheduled service to DXB (4):
Free Bird Airlines
Investavia
Latcharter Airlines
Travel Svcs A.S.

Then from the "I have no idea what you're talking about" category (3):
Etihad (yes apparently bus service to Abu Dhabi is considered an airline)
GMG Airlines (defunct)
United Nations (apparently humanitarian flights doing a fuel stop in DXB are relevant...)

There are also about a dozen (12) carriers from Iran, Afghanistan and various countries in Central Asia that would not be allowed to fly into the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf

There are instances of double counting (3):
Aeroflot and its 100% owned subsidiary Donavia
Air India and Air India Express
NasAir and its holding company National Air Services

If you add up all the brackets that is 142 - (19+2+4+3+12+3+1) that is 98 airlines. This is in line with most big airports globally.

* an additional 1 for FZ.

That should address the 142 number. As for the 52.6% number when you remove the cargo ops and factor in that Dubai Inc also owns Flydubai which serves 89 destinations (granted there is a little overlap with EK) how does that change the picture? Dramatically! Destination coverage becomes closer to 100% than 50%.

Quoting david_itl (Reply 85):
DXB handled 70,475,636 last year with EK having approx 45 million on them. Roughly 63.8% of the passengers.

And a further +7.25M on FZ

YOWza

[Edited 2015-03-19 07:07:42]
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 93):
You are correct that the ME3 doesn't have a domestic market like the US3, this is a huge advantage to the US3 over the ME3 and one of the reasons that they have a higher margin.

How so. Is it not the other way round, the big domestic market an advantage. And having no domestic market a disadvantage.

Once a while ago all the international airlines in the USA failed and the domestic ones lived
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 77):
That ME3 has better service than US3 and EU3 is just temporary. If oil goes down the drain and flying becomes expensive, they'll start cutting down, I'm sure. Airlines are not charities.

If oil goes down, the airlines save on fuel costs and will have more to invest. Not less.

Quoting mayor (Reply 86):
......who ARE EK's shareholders

Their owners, the Dubai Royals. Is this news to anyone?

Quoting mayor (Reply 86):
Everyone says that the US3 CEO's need to reinvest and offer better services. I seem to remember that DL, for one, has invested a ton of money in the last 5 years, on refurbishment, facilities, a/c, etc.

That's all great. But that doesn't seem to reflect on any passenger satisfaction survey. Nor does it reflect in their generosity to passengers. For example, on baggage allowance (which matters a lot in the markets they are competing against EK in). And where's the investment on IFE? And what about seat pitch? Compare any EK A380 to any DL widebody that you'll get across the Atlantic.

I'm sure they're investing. But they could invest a lot more and have offered more generous allowances if they had accepted lower margins...which they aren't. No shame in admitting that DL prefers to please Wall St. over Main St. We all answer to our bosses.

Quoting mayor (Reply 86):
They also invested in their employees, in the form of profit sharing.

As a consumer, I really don't care how a business pays in employees. They can give them all Hanukkah or Kwanza bonuses. What exactly does that do for me? Especially if I'm still stuck paying for my 2nd bag to BOM?
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 93):
this is a huge advantage to the US3 over the ME3

Absolutely. And that's why the US3 should be competitive with the ME3. The US3 have all their frequent flyer crowds. They have huge feeder networks to their hubs. The ME3 can't pick up traffic beyond the cities they fly to (excepting EK's deal with B6).

If you're flying from Grand Forks to Riyadh, you'll be flying the US3. Not the ME3.

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 88):
. So if we take the fact that the US3 are competing with a great many aforementioned smaller carriers (in my earlier post) in a great many airports just domestically, let alone internationally, I would say the Emirates has it very easy.

Different business models yield different competitive advantages. What's your point? SQ at SIN and CX at HKG have the exact same business models too. And KL at AMS, AF at CDG, and BA at LHR, all have rather limited domestic flying to their single hubs. Is anybody complaining about all those other airlines?

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 88):
the US3 have to deal with both domestic and international travel,

Which should provide them massive competitive advantage (feed).

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 88):
And unlike the US3, the ME3 aren't expected to be charities.

The supposedly charitable US3 have higher yields. Let's be clear who they are charitable to: Wall St.

I do agree with you that the ME3 aren't charities. They are investments designed to generate long term payoffs for the oil wealth that those countries have (or had in the case of DXB). Can't live on oil revenues forever. So they had to invest in businesses that will pay off...and hopefully bring other forms of investment to them as well.
 
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mayor
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 92):
The US3 also have higher margins and bigger profits than the ME3. So they cut costs and ticket prices and service, yet still made billions. Loser - consumer.

So, if they hadn't made money and invested it in their product, who would be the loser, then?

Quoting YTZ (Reply 95):

Their owners, the Dubai Royals. Is this news to anyone?

Not really, just wanted to make sure that, since they're not publicly owned, that they don't have the responsibility to their shareholders as the US3 are. You ARE aware of that, correct?

Quoting YTZ (Reply 95):
As a consumer, I really don't care how a business pays in employees. They can give them all Hanukkah or Kwanza bonuses. What exactly does that do for me? Especially if I'm still stuck paying for my 2nd bag to BOM?

Well, you should........I would think that happier, better compensated employees make better employees to help serve you.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 96):
The supposedly charitable US3 have higher yields. Let's be clear who they are charitable to: Wall St.

Yes, as a corporation, they have a responsibility to their shareholders. The ME3, apparently, only have a responsibility to the royals........so, why are the US3, being publicly held, more evil than the ME3?


I do agree with you that the ME3 aren't charities. They are investments designed to generate long term payoffs for the oil wealth that those countries have (or had in the case of DXB). Can't live on oil revenues forever. So they had to invest in businesses that will pay off...and hopefully bring other forms of investment to them as well.

Your second sentence is interesting. Do not the US3 do the same thing, just under a different system?
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pjc747
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 95):
How so. Is it not the other way round, the big domestic market an advantage. And having no domestic market a disadvantage.

Once a while ago all the international airlines in the USA failed and the domestic ones lived

The United States is unique because it has among the world's major cities and ports on coasts 2,200nm apart. There is really no domestic market like the United States. While China and India are #1 & #2 in population, most of their people don't fly, whereas in the US we do. There is a market filled with most of the 315,000,000 people, most have flown before or will, and they have domestic markets, JFK-HNL, which cover distances which everyone else would serve internationally. So there are two classes of competitors; there are domestic competitors (because internationals who can't fly domestically) and international operators + domestic carriers vying for international travel. Emirates don't have to compete with many airlines for much.

Yes, the nominal value of airlines flying to Dubai might be a large one, but most carriers only fly to one to four cities. Emirates doesn't compete with anybody flying to all destinations. Delta, United, American, Sun Country, JetBlue, Virgin America, and Alaska all compete just for the JFK-LAX route. Emirates has an oligopoly with flyDubai for regional service, and a monopoly for all service to DXB, with Etihad being a competitor for the UAE as a whole. Qatar has a complete monopoly on service to that country, and I don't know how many people fly to Qatar to fly to Dubai, which is a 6 hour distance by road, with no train service, and the costs of a flight from Qatar to Dubai close the cost of a cheaper Qatar ticket or vice-versa.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 93):
Off course the ME3 competes against each other. They fly to mostly the same destination on a one-stop basis. If anything EY and QR might not compete on all routes, but EK competes against both on their routes, either on its own or both at the same time.

This is hardly competition compared to what the US market sees; the ME3 are an oligopoly. If you want to fly JFK-LHR you can fly on British Airways, Finnair, Virgin Atlantic, Iberia, American, Delta, Air France, KLM, and Malaysia from listings I see. This doesn't include Newark service for New York City. All the big routes have both domestic carriers and international carriers competing for international routes. Emirates have relatively little competition, the US airlines have an incredible amount. ,
 
pjc747
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 96):
Which should provide them massive competitive advantage (feed).

Massive competitive advantage? The ME3 have massive comparative advantage if anything. Emirates don't need to worry about having maybe a dozen competitors for flights over a broad spectrum of markets.

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