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dubaiamman243
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Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:53 am

Sir Tim Clark, president of Emirates Airline, said on Tuesday that he expects an apology from US carriers after he proves his airline has received no subsidies from the Dubai government.
Clark was one of a number of top aviation executives from the Gulf and the US who clashed in Washington over whether "open skies" deals are fair.

source: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/clark...rs-over-subsidy-claims-585986.html
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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mayor
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:59 am

People in hell want icewater, too  
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):
Sir Tim Clark, president of Emirates Airline, said on Tuesday that he expects an apology from US carriers after he proves his airline has received no subsidies from the Dubai government.

It doesn't hurt to dream...  

Unless he was smoking something just before he said his expectations  
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A332DTW
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:15 am

Lets just make a thread and title it "US3 vs ME3". I'm sure it'll reach part 75 in a few weeks or something.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):
Sir Tim Clark, president of Emirates Airline, said on Tuesday that he expects an apology from US carriers after he proves his airline has received no subsidies from the Dubai government.

Don't hold your breath...
 
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enilria
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:24 am

I think the US3 will have a harder argument after stratospheric 1Q earnings.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:43 am

I think the US3 are on a hiding to nothing here. Paying customers want a quality product and a better level of service. The US Government are not about to roll out protectionist policies to pander to US carriers who have already been propped up by bankruptcy protection. The airlines are not the be all and end all here - there are other issues at stake on the playing field of global commerce and international relations.

The US3 need to quit whining, step up, and provide a product that holds water on the global stage. Nowhere in US industry is customer satisfaction less sought after and mediocrity more accepted than in the US Airline industry. It's time they become better at what they do. Profitable mediocrity is not the flag they want to be flying. Cost cutting and low gas prices can only take them so far.

[Edited 2015-03-17 22:44:33]

[Edited 2015-03-17 22:56:42]
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:50 am

Yeah and I'd love a date with Katy Perry. Good luck with that, Timmy.
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Mir
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:05 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 7):
The US3 need to quit whining, step up, and provide a product that holds water on the global stage.

I've been very happy with DL's transatlantic product of late - it's a very competitive one.

-Mir
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Kashmon
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:36 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 7):

HAHAHAHA!!

the US government is NOT going to roll out protectionist policies?!!
in your world
North Korea must be very democratic
and New Zealand is a expansionist war hungry country...

I don't see why US do not ban ME3 since they hate them so much...
pretty sure most Americans would vote to " Ban Muslim businesses who are trying to destroy our American aviation legacy(crap service)"
so it would be the democratic choice

of course ME3 should respond as they wish

Boeing orders? is Boeing was building aircraft just based on ME3 needs they got their priorities upside down

anyone who demands an apology needs to grow up...
even if you are owed one how does demanding one even suggest maturity.

one question
why are BA/AA so silent about this!?!! Star and Skyteam are effectively never going to get any of the ME3 with their attitude.
 
777way
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:57 am

I findi it hilarious pisters putting in Sir, Dr. Mr, Mrs. Ms when taking names as if they are those individuals spokespersons or rules require decorum when using names.
 
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):

Sir Tim Clark, president of Emirates Airline, said on Tuesday that he expects an apology from US carriers after he proves his airline has received no subsidies from the Dubai government.

Well, he is right in expecting it. But if he really believes he is going to get them, then he is wrong. But he is smart man, he will not expect those apologies, but with the facts he will easily discredit the drummed up claims which have not been substantiated for 0,000001% by the US3 airlines CEO's. And he will therefore discredit these CEO's as well which never should have lashed out the way they did. It was and is a pathetic attempt to create a theatrical drama. And a bad drama unfortunately this whole row has become.  
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
but with the facts he will easily discredit the drummed up claims which have not been substantiated

He should do that first.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
Well, he is right in expecting it.

Sure it is ones right expecting it. But stating its publicly. Even a elementary school kid knows its a no no.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 12):
He should do that first.

He has defended his position with indisputable evidence to back that up that continuously, and with dignity. An example for the US3-CEO's.

But I still have not seen any evidence by the US3-carriers to back up their lubricous and false claims. Only allegations, which are not to be confused with evidence.  

[Edited 2015-03-18 04:08:30]
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:18 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 14):
He has defended his position with indisputable evidence to back that up that continuously, and with dignity.

What evidence??? His cheap talk is not evidence, even though he is a "Sir".

This is an issue between two governments. Dubai should have sent a government representative to DC.

Sir T.C showing up at DC to have discussion with US Government representatives itself is a breach of protocol.

He should learn about dignity from Mr.Hogan.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 14):
Only allegations, which are not to be confused with evidence.

Evidence can be circumstantial in case of an allegation. There is lot more than that.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 16):
There is lot more than that.

Is there? I have seen quite a number of threads on this newly born subject here on A-net. And coming from the ES3-Carriers CEO's or their supporters I have not seen not even a fraction the size of an atom that remotely even starts to look like evidence to back up their ludicrous claims.

Despite the fact that you are defending their unsubstantiated claims fiercely in all those threads, you also have not provided any evidence. But you are very quickly to dismiss evidence backed up by credible links posted by the overwhelming majority of posters in these threads.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 16):
This is an issue between two governments.

No, it is not. The issue was raised by the CEO's in attempt to get it kicked-up to government level. So that the can gain any normally illegal and out of reach support measures enforced by the US government against the ME3-carriers. Where other strong US-companies (not in the least Boeing) have easily dismissed the claims the US3-carriers CEO's have made.

It basically is a cheap attempt to disguise their own incompetence compared to the level of operations the ME3-carriers successfully have demonstrated, and they will continue to do so for quite some years to come. And if the competition would get its act together instead of whining, they have nothing to worry about. Especially since if they would get in trouble again, there is always Chapter 11 to bail them out.....
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:07 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 17):
No, it is not.

It is a Government-Government issue. If TC has lack of understanding, he should watch James Hogan's speech from Aviation Summit.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 17):
The issue was raised by the CEO's in attempt to get it kicked-up to government level.

That's how it works. Government is not micromanaging every trade agreement. If a foreign entity violates an agreement, local industries brings it to government's attention.

Same with steel, solar panels or cars.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 17):
Despite the fact that you are defending their unsubstantiated claims fiercely in all those threads, you also have not provided any evidence. But you are very quickly to dismiss evidence backed up by credible links posted by the overwhelming majority of posters in these threads.

Dossier is the evidence. If EK apologists have trouble believing it, not my issue.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 16):
This is an issue between two governments.

No it isn't. Aside from the whining by US3, what has any US government official said about this? What is the US government doing about it? Nothing.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 18):
Dossier is the evidence. If EK apologists have trouble believing it, not my issue.

Hilarious. It's a bunch of allegations with zero proof. Evidence is the last thing it is.
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 6):
The US3 need to quit whining

Speaking of whining:

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):
Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wah! I want a puppy!
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EPA001
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 18):
Dossier is the evidence.

              

And now please present any real evidence with credible links to back up their and your claims. Over the last few weeks since this issue is discussed here in various threads not a single shred of evidence with any credibility has been presented to support those claims. We are still waiting, and waiting, and waiting.......   .

On then other hand, there has been an overwhelmingly amount of real credible evidence posted, including many credible links to back-up that evidence, which you just bluntly and simply ignore. That is your problem, and it is your issue.  

[Edited 2015-03-18 06:05:29]
 
airbazar
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:58 pm

I've seen this movie before but in that movie the guy demanding an apology was called Lance Armstrong   

[Edited 2015-03-18 05:59:23]
 
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yowza
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 2):
Unless he was smoking something just before he said his expectations  

Minimum of 4 years in the can in the UAE for such goodies. Doubt he was.  
Quoting A332DTW (Reply 3):
Lets just make a thread and title it "US3 vs ME3". I'm sure it'll reach part 75 in a few weeks or something.

I agree the. This is getting ridiculous. 5 concurrent threads as of right now. Pass the Valium please.

YOWza
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 21):
On then other hand, there has been an overwhelmingly amount of real credible evidence posted, including many credible links to that evidence back-up, which you just bluntly and simply ignore. That is your problem, and it is your issue.

0) CEO's verbal statements - No value
1) Unregulated financial statements - No value
2) Reports by paid consultancies - No value
3) Commission agents comments - No value
4) Paid rating agency ratings - No value
5) Paid independent studies - No value
6) Sir Richard Quest's opinion - Negative value

I fail to see which of these are credible evidence.
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scbriml
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 23):
I fail to see which of these are credible evidence.

You missed one:

US3 'dossier' - No value.   
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ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:22 pm

Dunno why he demanded an apology. If it was me, I would have sued for libel.

After they specifically dropped the ball on that ICD Letter of Credit in their dossier, EK now has grounds for a libel suit.

Nothing like having the court force AfFS to print full page retractions in the New York Times, Wall St. Journal, etc.

I don't know what his advisors told him. But American businesses don't do anything decent without court orders.

[Edited 2015-03-18 06:30:03]
 
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
I've seen this movie before but in that movie the guy demanding an apology was called Lance Armstrong   

I reminds me that no matter how much you disguise a donkey, it is still a donkey.... So true on both sides on so many levels...

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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 24):
US3 'dossier' - No value.  

I don't know how the facts -- aircraft deliveries, OEM payments and fuel value, and crew expenses -- minus ticket revenue -- can really be in dispute.

My thought is that the ME3 and especially EK are state subsidized, knowing the general revenue and cost parameters of an EK style operation, and why they are not feasible for a business to do. But it's not my job to write the dossier and pencil in exactly what the subsidy is, and where it is. I don't know, but I believe it is probably there.

Airlines generally pay for their own operational costs in the US. We can debate a few pennies of subsidy on the now $1.5T in airline revenue after 9/11 within the USA. Maybe there was 1-2 billion out of 1.5 trillion dollars in operation, so 1/1000 of the operations have been subsidized Something along those lines. What is the figure in the UAE? 1/3? So 300 times the subsidy? I have no idea, but the curiosity and circumstantial evidence are there (and true proof from data very plausible).
 
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
I don't know how the facts -- aircraft deliveries, OEM payments and fuel value, and crew expenses -- minus ticket revenue -- can really be in dispute.

None of which are an illegal subsidy.
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georgiaame
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:49 pm

Sir Clark or Sir Tim or whatever he is called can claim no subsidies till the cows come home, he is subsidized up the wazo, and we all know it. (Do they have cows in the Gulf?). That said, this little spat has generated more free, beneficial publicity for ME3 than any oil subsidy could buy, and it has truly highlighted the degree of mediocre service provided by the US airlines. I don't know if that was the original intent, but is sure is the consequence! While I would rather not set foot on any ME run airline, for personal reasons, it suddenly has become VERY tempting! Especially with the recent price drop between JFK and MXP. I'm all in favor of the US3 loading their coffers with dollar bills, but unless the dam breaks, and they make a serious effort at boosting customer service, the competitors are going to win this financial war, whether or not Mr Anderson of Delta apologizes for his egregious observations. So Mr Clark. With your fleet of 500 A380s, when does Atlanta/Europe service begin?
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 25):
Dunno why he demanded an apology. If it was me, I would have sued for libel.

That knife cuts both ways. Sue and then cough up all your records too. Probably not. No one will sue anyone. IMO, I think both sides are right. Or wrong, depending on you POV.
 
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yowza
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):
None of which are an illegal subsidy.

I think his point was that it's a bit much to discount the entire dossier just because its overall narrative doesn't gel with your views. Even in the pro ME3 camp there is no disputing that there are facts in it. The same cannot be said of dtw2hyd's list. While his position and mine are not entirely aligned I agree that his list of things (

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 23):
0) CEO's verbal statements - No value
1) Unregulated financial statements - No value
2) Reports by paid consultancies - No value
3) Commission agents comments - No value
4) Paid rating agency ratings - No value
5) Paid independent studies - No value
6) Sir Richard Quest's opinion - Negative value
) and their value is pretty bang on.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 30):
That knife cuts both ways. Sue and then cough up all your records too. Probably not. No one will sue anyone.

EXACTLY. A small part of me wonders if the US carriers are trying to goad the gulf carriers into such a position.

YOWza

[Edited 2015-03-18 06:55:50]
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 9):
HAHAHAHA!!

the US government is NOT going to roll out protectionist policies?!!

So Kasmon, why don't you explain why you think the US government WILL roll out protectionist policies for the airline business?

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 9):
n your world
North Korea must be very democratic
and New Zealand is a expansionist war hungry country...

What's your point and how do you reach this conclusion? Rather than being flippant, why not add some constructive comments that contribute positively to the debate (although I do realize that is what teenagers like yourself do)?
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 30):
That knife cuts both ways. Sue and then cough up all your records too. Probably not. No one will sue anyone. IMO, I think both sides are right. Or wrong, depending on you POV

In this specific case? I don't think the knife cuts as broadly as one imagines.....

Why would EK not be able to limit their court case to specific points to be challenged in the dossier? And would US courts, not be sympathetic to considerations of commercial sensitivity, just because it's an airline case? They most certainly are, in other cases.

Finally, if EK really has nothing to hide, I would think this would be an appropriate course of action.

Quoting yowza (Reply 31):
EXACTLY. A small part of me wonders if the US carriers are trying to goad the gulf carriers into such a position.

Nah. I think they are trying to fight their battle in the court of public opinion. And really, given the gullibility of the public and/or politicians, it's the exact strategy I'd pick. You think they want a lawsuit, where they themselves might have to disclose a ton of information too?
 
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yowza
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 33):
Nah. I think they are trying to fight their battle in the court of public opinion. And really, given the gullibility of the public and/or politicians, it's the exact strategy I'd pick. You think they want a lawsuit, where they themselves might have to disclose a ton of information too?

I fully agree that they have chosen the right strategy. Public opinion sank the Dubai Ports World deal so it's clear that it *can* work. If you look at the polemic haze descending on this issue it looks to be working again... An extension to this strategy is to cause cracks in the tight-lipped united front of the ME3 CEOs. Thus far none of them has made any remarks about how their peers operate despite being repeatedly pushed to do so. Not an easy day to be Tim Clark.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 33):
You think they want a lawsuit, where they themselves might have to disclose a ton of information too?

All three are publicly traded. Between existing disclosures and free movement of executive staff there is little that a motivated party cannot already deduce.

YOWza
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 30):
That knife cuts both ways. Sue and then cough up all your records too. Probably not. No one will sue anyone. IMO, I think both sides are right. Or wrong, depending on you POV.

Exactly, doing so would bring out lots of info the ME3 don't want out there, probably info that shows the US3 is correct. But hey, the we hate America crowd is strong on this site, so I wouldn't expect them to see it.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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speedbored
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 17):
It is a Government-Government issue.

No it isn't. Not until and unless government can be convinced that there is any credible grievance in the US3 dossier. And I hope that the US government will consider the various "benefits" that the US3 have received over the years before doing anything, even if they do find any credible grievances. This could easily turn into a huge "shoot ourselves in the foot" exercise if people are not careful.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 25):
Dunno why he demanded an apology. If it was me, I would have sued for libel.

I suspect that he might just sue if he does not get his apology.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 29):
he is subsidized up the wazo, and we all know it.

No, only people who can't be bothered to investigate the allegations, and the true facts behind them, "know it". The rest of us know otherwise.

I have looked into the allegations, and investigated the facts behind them, and I am pretty sure that the US3 will come unstuck on almost all of them. But then I do not believe that the dossier was ever intended to be about facts - it seems to me that it was always an exercise designed to sway public opinion in the USA, in the hope that it would be sufficient to cause the government to put the brakes on legitimate competition from EK. Competition that the US3 do not feel that they have the ability to adequately cope with.
 
ytz
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 34):
If you look at the polemic haze descending on this issue it looks to be working again...

I'd argue the jury is out on this one. Other than a.net, how much of this is really in the public eye? Really. We all take ourselves a little too seriously here!

Moreover, we still haven't had Boeing, JetBlue, tourism operators, etc. weigh in heavily yet. Or experts in strategic relations.

This isn't just a US3 vs. ME3 fight after all. There are many, many stake holders in this one.

Quoting yowza (Reply 34):
All three are publicly traded. Between existing disclosures and free movement of executive staff there is little that a motivated party cannot already deduce.

Oh. But nothing like have to "disclose" in court that you're getting volume discounts at your hub, while claiming the other sides volume discounts are subsidies. Whether that's public info or not, it's priceless PR for the ME3 if it happens. And more to the point, they'll be compelled to the same level of disclosure (private agreements with vendors) that they are insisting from the ME3, in any court case, if they decide to mount a defence on any libel suit.

Quoting yowza (Reply 34):
Thus far none of them has made any remarks about how their peers operate despite being repeatedly pushed to do so. Not an easy day to be Tim Clark.

And if their smart, they won't criticize each other. Just defend the charges against their own airline. And Tim Clark has a much easier case here than the other two.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 36):
I suspect that he might just sue if he does not get his apology.

Hopefully. And then this endless a.net debate can be settled once and for all!
 
pjc747
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:56 pm

You know, I bet they get foodstuffs grown in the United States in the UAE, maybe he wants an apology for the subsidies which allow U.S. farmers to grow enough surplus to export. Maybe he wants an apology from all the private companies fracking in the U.S. that brought crude down to $42/barrel, or an apology from the OPEC cartel that has been setting oil prices for decades. I scarcely believe an airline operated by a government-owned corporation has not received a dime of assistance.
 
Flighty
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):
None of which are an illegal subsidy.

Not saying that subsidies are illegal, just that evident expenses (known to many or all) appear to be much higher than revenue. Which would prove a large subsidy is there. If the supposed facts are true. You can prove EK is getting $3 billion a year or whatever even without knowing how, where or why. Most of the facts required to do that are either public, or at least known to parties in the EU or USA (the jet deals and maintenance programs, crew wages, fuel value, ticket revneue, perhaps freight, etc).

[Edited 2015-03-18 08:14:27]
 
jfklucky777
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:12 pm

 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 36):
No it isn't. Not until and unless government can be convinced that there is any credible grievance in the US3 dossier.

How do you know US Government is not convinced?? Because they didn't release a press statement !!!

US Government has no option but review, followup with foreign entity and get to the bottom of these allegations. All this will be done privately between governments.

Ignoring the allegations will result in a US3 vs DOT court battle.

There are a few important trade agreements in the works. If government cannot fairly implement current trade agreements, no one in congress is going to ratify new ones.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 36):
And I hope that the US government will consider the various "benefits" that the US3 have received over the years before doing anything, even if they do find any credible grievances.

Chapter 11 was law of the land when Open Skies was signed. Was there a restriction in Open Skies on US3 to use Chapter 11?

Quoting yowza (Reply 34):
If you look at the polemic haze descending on this issue it looks to be working again... An extension to this strategy is to cause cracks in the tight-lipped united front of the ME3 CEOs. Thus far none of them has made any remarks about how their peers operate despite being repeatedly pushed to do so.

Actualy there are already cracks in ME3.

H.E.AAB said they are state owned and they get government equity.

Hogan said EY gets equity and loans from government. He said he will use every option "owner" provides EY. And his best quote "It is up to governments to decide what is subsidy".

Bottom line QR/EY have no say in this, it is up to their governments. To the contrary Dubai government is MIA.


It is interesting to watch US/EU strategy

Fairskies is the public face.

Anderson stirred the pot and stayed quiet since then
Smisek worked the media channels privately
Parker said he will take lead on this issue (That took air out of argument AA is not on board)
German aviation coordinator said subsidy issue need to be resolved (He did it in Doha, pretty amazing)
EU jumped in (When Clark was dangling 200xA380 order carrot)
Fairskies started media blitz (TC cannot even watch TV in DC, hopefully he has ICE on USB stick)
Parker gave a strong speech (While Clark and Hogan were in DC)

So their strategy is to keep ME3 on their toes without lot of work. They are doing a good job.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 41):
Chapter 11 was law of the land when Open Skies was signed. Was there a restriction in Open Skies on US3 to use Chapter 11?

Where exactly in my comment did I mention Ch.11?
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 41):
Ignoring the allegations will result in a US3 vs DOT court battle.

Open Skies agreements are the purview of the State Department (this is a direct result of previous US3 lobbying to remove that authority from the DOT). And governments have absolute sovereignty over trade and foreign relations. No company can sue the government to alter a trade deal in their favour. They can only lobby to get the government to change it on their own.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 31):
and their value is pretty bang on.

If there was any credible evidence, then maybe. Now in an empty sky there is more evidence pro ME3 then the ludicrous hollow claims made by the US3.

Quoting yowza (Reply 31):
Even in the pro ME3 camp there is no disputing that there are facts in it.

it there? Then please present us the facts so we can concur or not with your statement. Again, the first atom of a shrink of a shred of evidence has not been stated or presented here, nor in the baseless and hollow allegations made by the US3.

I am happy to reconsider my position if that evidence is presented and after I have had chance to review it. And since for several weeks not a shred of that has been put forward here in several threads dealing with the US3 - ME3 - row, it is clear what my position is. And that will remain so upon credible evidence here presented. And I do not even fly on the ME3-carriers. I never have, and maybe eI never will since I am very loyal to the Star Alliance (UA, LH and SQ especially) and KLM, but I will defend the ME3-carriers here against baseless accusations. No matter from who they are coming from.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 25):
After they specifically dropped the ball on that ICD Letter of Credit in their dossier, EK now has grounds for a libel suit.

All these foreign experts on US law. Before anybody can sue for libel, they need to prove damages. What are they, seems we have plenty of people who "know" EK's books, exactly what are the damages from the dossier?

Quoting speedbored (Reply 36):
I have looked into the allegations, and investigated the facts behind them,

Sure you have. What are your qualifications for this inside knowledge?
 
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yowza
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RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 37):
I'd argue the jury is out on this one. Other than a.net, how much of this is really in the public eye? Really. We all take ourselves a little too seriously here!

A surprising number of my friends (who call on me as their aviation nerd friend) have shot me texts asking what's going on. Anecdotal but it's something...

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 37):
Oh. But nothing like have to "disclose" in court that you're getting volume discounts at your hub, while claiming the other sides volume discounts are subsidies. Whether that's public info or not, it's priceless PR for the ME3 if it happens. And more to the point, they'll be compelled to the same level of disclosure (private agreements with vendors) that they are insisting from the ME3, in any court case, if they decide to mount a defence on any libel suit.

Let's wait and see. I still feel the US3 has less to hide. Not nothing.  
Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 37):
And if their smart, they won't criticize each other. Just defend the charges against their own airline. And Tim Clark has a much easier case here than the other two.

  

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 41):
H.E.AAB said they are state owned and they get government equity.
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 41):
Hogan said EY gets equity and loans from government. He said he will use every option "owner" provides EY. And his best quote "It is up to governments to decide what is subsidy".

The point YTZ and I are talking about is that the ME3 CEO's are talking only about their own ops and not making statements about their peers.

YOWza
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8831
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 43):
No company can sue the government to alter a trade deal in their favour.

US3 are not asking to revoke (or) alter Open Skies. They are asking to enforce the agreement as it is written. Not sure if sovereign immunity gives cover.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2290
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 37):
Hopefully. And then this endless a.net debate can be settled once and for all!

There is not one instance of endless a.net debate ever being settled once and for all. You should know that.  
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:12 pm

So he has taken over the arrogance of his bloddy bosses - we have the money so bow your neck...
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Clark: I Want Apology From US Carriers

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 46):

A surprising number of my friends (who call on me as their aviation nerd friend) have shot me texts asking what's going on. Anecdotal but it's something...

And that's because you're someone who travels to the region and has friends who are in a similar position. How much does that hold true for the general public? Let alone in the US.

I've not seen a single shred of interest from anybody, on this topic, on any of my social media networks or at work, where we're now sending personnel to the region again (to play with ISIL). And it's certainly not a significant news story on any American news network. Unlike say when deliberations about Dubai Ports World were going on.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 47):
US3 are not asking to revoke (or) alter Open Skies.

They absolutely are. They are simply couching their arguments under the guise of the argument that there's no state of "true" open skies. But the core of their argument is that Open Skies agreements with UAE and Qatar should be abrogated and that the countries should have negotiated air service agreements in place instead.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 47):
They are asking to enforce the agreement as it is written.

If that was the case, they wouldn't be arguing for the imposition of a separate agreement with specific access and limited rights.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 47):
Not sure if sovereign immunity gives cover.

Absolutely does. You cannot compel the government (through court action) to modify an international trade deal because your business is impacted. If that was the case, deals such as NAFTA could easily have been shredded in court. The government is well within its rights to sign whatever deal it wants. You can, however, lobby politicians to modify the deal in your favour. And that's what the US3 are doing now.

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