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BAKJet
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Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:16 am

Perhaps there is some sort of obvious demographic or economic difference that I'm missing, but why is it that Canadian cities such as Edmonton and Calgary can and do support multiple non-stop Transatlantic flights while similarly sized US cities/metro areas (Indianapolis, Nashville, Columbus, etc) can't even support one? Are Canadian travelers demands different? Does it have to do with the relative lack of larger cities in Canada compared to the US? If so, why aren't passengers still routed through hubs in larger cities as they are in the US? Does it have to do with a somewhat differently structured airline industry in Canada?

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AC330
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:40 am

I would say it absolutely has to do with the relative lack of larger cities in Canada compared to the US. There are only so many hubs or gateways and therefore smaller cities are supporting more flights. One good example of this is YHZ where a city of around 300,000 inhabitants has year round widebody service to LHR on Air Canada and not to mention numerous seasonal transatlantic services on Icelandair, Condor, Europe Airpost and soon Westjet. Of course, YHZ does draw from a larger catchment area than just Halifax itself but how many cities of its size in the USA do you see with year round transatlantic flights on widebody aircraft?
 
Prost
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:13 am

Don't Canadians also get more vacation time than their U.S. cousins? I'll be curious if the rising dollar/falling Loonie dynamic may curtail some of the thinner routes that have sprung up in the past few years. The falling Loonie is going to cause increased Canadian inflation, and the collapse of resource prices might soften the Canadian economy for the next 13-18 months.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:16 am

Quoting an ancient Chinese proverb, "it is all about the $$"
Alberta is a very wealthy province with very low taxes. If you add sub-zero temperatures, it is natural for people to want to travel when they can.
Also, KLM is traditionally a strong cargo operator, so with decent cargo volumes they don't need massive passenger figures tin order o be profitable.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:44 am

Quoting BAKJet (Thread starter):
economic difference that I'm missing, but why is it that Canadian cities such as Edmonton and Calgary can and do support multiple non-stop Transatlantic flights while similarly sized US cities/metro areas (Indianapolis, Nashville, Columbus, etc) can't even support one?

More restrictive traffic rights enable a government to steer the availability of flights ("no, you can't have YVR, but we may grand rights to YYC" sort of thing) and prevent too much competition from by hubs trashing the market price, making smaller non-stops unsustainable.

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Thomaas
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:54 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 5):
Quoting BAKJet (Thread starter):
economic difference that I'm missing, but why is it that Canadian cities such as Edmonton and Calgary can and do support multiple non-stop Transatlantic flights while similarly sized US cities/metro areas (Indianapolis, Nashville, Columbus, etc) can't even support one?

More restrictive traffic rights enable a government to steer the availability of flights ("no, you can't have YVR, but we may grand rights to YYC" sort of thing) and prevent too much competition from by hubs trashing the market price, making smaller non-stops unsustainable.

Canada-EU is open-skies, therefore this is irrelevant given that the airports discussed only have TATL service.
 
stratocruiser
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:40 am

Many of these Canadian cities, as well as being significant destinations for tourist travel, also have large ethnic British and European populations which undoubtedly helps to support the viability of TATL services.
 
cloudboy
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:21 pm

Is it easier for Canadians to get into the UK and Europe, being a crown colony? Is it easier for Brittish and Europeans to get into Canada than the US?
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yowza
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 5):
More restrictive traffic rights enable a government to steer the availability of flights ("no, you can't have YVR, but we may grand rights to YYC" sort of thing) and prevent too much competition from by hubs trashing the market price, making smaller non-stops unsustainable.

Completely baseless. Can you cite even one example of this happening? Certainly in the context on TATL this has never happened...

YOWza
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:48 pm

Part of the reason is because Americans don't travel overseas as much as the Canadians/Australians/British do. Only 36% of Americans hold a passport.

[Edited 2015-03-18 06:50:13]
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ytz
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 5):

More restrictive traffic rights enable a government to steer the availability of flights ("no, you can't have YVR, but we may grand rights to YYC" sort of thing) and prevent too much competition from by hubs trashing the market price, making smaller non-stops unsustainable.

Nonsense. We have Open Skies with Europe. They can fly anywhere they want. There's no "steering" of traffic.
 
yv773p
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 8):
Is it easier for Canadians to get into the UK and Europe, being a crown colony?

Canada is not a colony anymore. I would imagine it is just as easy to come to the US as it is to go to Canada because most of Europe is part of the visa waver program.
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Andy33
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 8):
Is it easier for Canadians to get into the UK and Europe, being a crown colony? Is it easier for Brittish and Europeans to get into Canada than the US?

I think you'll get abused by furious Canadians (except that they're usually too polite) for calling their country a Crown Colony. It isn't, it has been an independent country (that happens to share its ceremonial head of state with the UK), for many decades now.
Is it easier for Canadians to get into the UK or the rest of Europe? No, neither Canadians nor US citizens require a visa for normal tourist or business visits, nor any kind of visa waiver.
Is it easier for British or other Europeans to get into Canada than the US? Yes, for normal tourist and business visits the US requires people to apply for and pay for an ESTA, Canada requires neither visa nor visa waiver.
Canada also allows citizens of the UK and all other EU countries to transit its airports without hindrance. The US has no concept of transit and requires everyone to legally enter the country even if they are leaving again from the same airport two hours later.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:00 pm

In fairness to Tommy1808, there were city-based restrictions prior to Open Skies (2009?).

AF, for example, wasn't allowed to fly to YVR for some unknown reason. I believe they're finally starting it this year.
 
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yowza
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10):

Part of the reason is because Americans don't travel overseas as much as the Canadians/Australians/British do. Only 36% of Americans hold a passport

I'm not sure this washes with me after all 36% of 320,000,000 people is 115,200,000 which is pretty much 3 times the size of Canada's entire population.

YOWza
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10):
of the reason is because Americans don't travel overseas as much as the Canadians/Australians/British do. Only 36% of Americans hold a passport.

AFAIK the old numbers of US passport holders is incorrect and it is actually much higher now.

But for argument sake 36% of ~350 million is 126 million people, still many more than the entire population of Canada available for int'l travel.
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tortugamon
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:11 pm

Can we take a look at fees? My guess is the reason is because the US based hub system consolidates traffic in different cities and there are no shortage of flights to one of these hubs from the cities mentioned that allow for comparatively cheaper flights across the Atlantic than our Northern neighbors. This is further made stark by the comparatively higher landing fees in Canada making a one-stopper slightly more expensive than a comparative US flight. Finally there is less competition and I think that does play a role as well.

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yowza
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 14):
AF, for example, wasn't allowed to fly to YVR for some unknown reason. I believe they're finally starting it this year.

I've heard this before but I don't know if there was anything dodgy going on. Simply that when the bilateral was renegotiated in the 80's additional rights to another point in Canada were allocated. I highly doubt the Feds would have turned around and said no to a specific port.

YOWza
 
NYC-air
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 13):
Canada also allows citizens of the UK and all other EU countries to transit its airports without hindrance.

Sort of - depends on the airport and the terminal. YYZ is set-up this way as long as you arrive and depart in the Air Canada terminal. YYC, I believe, funnels all arriving pax to Canadian customs. Also Canada requires that all arriving pax be eligible to enter Canada even if they're planning it. I believe that means transit visas are necessary for people holding passports that require a visa for Canadian entry.



Quoting BAKJet (Thread starter):
Canadian cities such as Edmonton and Calgary can and do support multiple non-stop Transatlantic flights while similarly sized US cities/metro areas (Indianapolis, Nashville, Columbus, etc) can't even support one?

These cities are not apples-to-apples comparisons. The US cities you have mentioned are close-ish to large hubs like ATL, ORD, and DTW. Formerly CLE and CVG were also in the mix. And, of course, there are flights to east coast hubs like JFK and PHL - so lots of transatlantic connection options.

YYC, YEG, and YHZ are in relative geographic isolation. It's 1000 KM from YYC to YVR and close to 2000 to DEN and MSP. DEN , for that matter, may be a big hub bit it is not a great place for transatlantic connections.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:28 pm



Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 16):
Quoting yowza (Reply 15):

Yes, I know how to count percentages, thank you very much...

Percentage of passport holders is just one indicator as to why Americans don't travel abroad as much. What is more interesting is why that is. Did you guys bother to read what I linked or what?

[Edited 2015-03-18 07:58:12]
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NYC-air
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 13):
Is it easier for British or other Europeans to get into Canada than the US? Yes, for normal tourist and business visits the US requires people to apply for and pay for an ESTA, Canada requires neither visa nor visa waiver.

No doubt this also makes connections to Canada via the US less than ideal + US airports lack intl transit facilities. Sure you can fly LHR->MSP->YYC but you have to pass through US customs and, unless you're a US or Canadian citizen, apply and pay for the ESTA. This headache means that US carriers loose out for Canada -> Europe connections, in spite of their networks.
 
Andy33
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting NYC-air (Reply 19):
Sort of - depends on the airport and the terminal. YYZ is set-up this way as long as you arrive and depart in the Air Canada terminal. YYC, I believe, funnels all arriving pax to Canadian customs. Also Canada requires that all arriving pax be eligible to enter Canada even if they're planning it. I believe that means transit visas are necessary for people holding passports that require a visa for Canadian entry.

Yes, Canada does require a transit visa if you're from a country for which they'd require an entry visa. So in some circumstances and for some fewer countries does the UK. In both cases a transit visa is significantly cheaper than a standard visa, and works even if you need to change terminals landside.
For EU citizens of course there is no need of any kind of visa, visa waiver, on-line ESTA application, or any visa/ESTA fee if in transit through Canada. That's something like 510 million people, all of whom require a visa or ESTA to do the same thing at a US airport. (OK, there may be a few people with dual nationality....).
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
Yes, I know how to count percentages, thank you very much...

Percentage of passport holders is just one indicator as to why Americans don't travel abroad as much. What is more interesting is why that is. Did you guys bother to read what I linked or what?

And as I said, I do not believe the percentage is that low anymore, it is closer to 50% from the stats I have seen.
But America is a big place and people do not need passports for much long distance travel. Fewer passports are being issued in parts of Europe now since Schengen went into effect also.

Having a passport does not mean one travels frequently.
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pnwtraveler
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:25 pm

As far as colony goes, we only share a Head of State. However, when the Queen visits Canada, it is as the Queen of Canada. Not Queen of England, UK or even Head of Commonwealth. When the succession rules were changed recently in Britain starting with the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, and changing to Heir to the throne being the First Born not First Born male, it required Canada's approval as with all other Commonwealth Countries that share the Monarch as Head of State.

Quoting NYC-air (Reply 21):
Quoting Andy33 (Reply 13):
Is it easier for British or other Europeans to get into Canada than the US? Yes, for normal tourist and business visits the US requires people to apply for and pay for an ESTA, Canada requires neither visa nor visa waiver.

No doubt this also makes connections to Canada via the US less than ideal + US airports lack intl transit facilities. Sure you can fly LHR->MSP->YYC but you have to pass through US customs and, unless you're a US or Canadian citizen, apply and pay for the ESTA. This headache means that US carriers loose out for Canada -> Europe connections, in spite of their networks.

My friends would agree! An Irish Canadian couple who have dual citizenship, and are basically commuting over the Atlantic to see each other with one of them in a temporary job assignment in Barcelona. They prefer connecting via a European centre to Toronto from Barcelona, unless Rouge has a significant cost advantage. Every time they connect in Philadelphia or Boston (again when fares are better) they have some kind of complication. US Customs seems to treat them like an aberration and the extra hassle of customs takes a toll.
 
edmountain
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:32 pm

Here are a few factors I can think of.

1. Calgary and Vancouver are more integrated into the global economy than cities like Indianapolis and Columbus. This presumably creates more demand.

2. Canadian geography makes connections more difficult. E.g., there's no easy or intuitive connection from Halifax or Edmonton to Europe. This makes the business case for a direct flight stronger because people will pay for a direct flight rather than suffer the indignity of awkward connections. Contrast this with Indianapolis with its proximity to hubs like ORD and DTW.

3. Canadians like to travel more.
 
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yowza
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):

Percentage of passport holders is just one indicator as to why Americans don't travel abroad as much. What is more interesting is why that is. Did you guys bother to read what I linked or what?

The way you cited it made it seem as if passport holdership was the key issue. That's likely why more than one commenter pounced on it that way...

Yes, I read the article (as well as a few other gems by the same author including 7 Ways To Avoid Looking Like A Douchebag When You’re Talking About Your Travels  ) ) I don't buy any of it. Geography-wise Canada doesn't have sunny beaches or deserts but I suspect the majority of people looking for a sunny break in the US or Canada go south, not east. So that doesn't apply to the TATL market.

The fear and ignorance umbrella is ridiculous at best. The author seems to believe he is in some way more enlightened than his compatriots.

Costs from the US to Europe are the same or less than Canada to Europe so that's not it.

Canadians have roughly the same vacation days as American.

YOWza
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 25):


1. Calgary and Vancouver are more integrated into the global economy than cities like Indianapolis and Columbus. This presumably creates more demand.

2. Canadian geography makes connections more difficult. E.g., there's no easy or intuitive connection from Halifax or Edmonton to Europe. This makes the business case for a direct flight stronger because people will pay for a direct flight rather than suffer the indignity of awkward connections. Contrast this with Indianapolis with its proximity to hubs like ORD and DTW.

3. Canadians like to travel more.

All very valid points. YVR is far more "global" of a city relative to its population size. And YYC with its natural resource driven market.

Regarding Canadians traveling more, I think it is more "Canadians want to travel internationally more". Domestic Canadian tickets are so outrageously expensive it makes a trip to Asia or Europe look like a really good bargain.

CAD fell a bit against USD, but not the implosion level like EUR-USD, so it's actually cheaper for Canadians to visit Europe, further driving nonstop transatlantic traffic.
 
sfuk
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 22):
For EU citizens of course there is no need of any kind of visa, visa waiver, on-line ESTA application, or any visa/ESTA fee if in transit through Canada
Quoting Andy33 (Reply 13):
Is it easier for British or other Europeans to get into Canada than the US? Yes, for normal tourist and business visits the US requires people to apply for and pay for an ESTA, Canada requires neither visa nor visa waiver.

This will be changing soon. The Govt is introducing an ETA (similar to the US) for all foreign nationals (except US).

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/departm...ns/forward-regulatory-plan/eta.asp

No word on when this will start yet.

Stu
 
polaris
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 14):
AF, for example, wasn't allowed to fly to YVR for some unknown reason. I believe they're finally starting it this year.

At the time, there was not enough traffic from Vancouver to/through France to warrant these flights. The rights were never requested. However, France did have rights between Vancouver and Tahiti so Air France could have flown that route if the French gov't granted them the rights. This year, Air France will begin Paris - Vancouver service. They now believe there is enough traffic to/through France to warrant these flights. Their codeshare with Westjet will provide some feed. Air Transat flies summer services between Vancouver and Paris. In the past, Air Canada has also flown the seasonal route with a stop in Montreal. That was the case for one or two seasons.
 
mpsrent
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:50 pm

I believe the issue is entirely cultural. It has nothing to do with passports, travel cost or holidays and everything to do with the fact that while there are many similarities between Canada and the US, there are also many significant differences.

Why smaller Canadian cities can support transatlantic flights is like having a conversation as to why Canadian's love small, hatchback cars. It's because we are different.

A combination of our strong ethnic link to Europe combined with the fact that we embrace foreign travel is likely the reason Canadians who live in or near small cities utilize trans Atlantic flights. I have a number of friends who live in small, rural northern towns who have traveled to many European countries. I belong to an association with membership from the US, Canada and Europe. Our annual meetings are almost always in a US city with Canadian sites selected every 5 years or so. A proposal to host an annual meeting in Sweden was unanimously supported by the Canadian group but ultimately shot down by the much larger American representation. When I asked my American colleagues why they rejected Sweden the response I received was that it was too far away and too much to adapt to.

From a Canadian perspective, domestic air travel cost is definitely a consideration. I have family in the U.K. and Victoria B.C. Living in Ontario, the cost (and time) to travel to the U.K. at times is cheaper than travelling to Canada's west coast. Thus, I tend to travel to the U.K. quite often. That differs from U.S. domestic travel where many bargains can be found when you compare the cost of travelling across the continent in Canada.
 
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spinkid
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:01 pm

Don't forget Canada has a very sizeable foreign born population from all over the world. This helps to encourage international travel, especially with connections in Europe.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:28 pm

US residents and citizens do not rely as much on international travel for doing business and going on vacation than Canadian residents or citizens and this explains a lot, imo.
Because the US has a much larger domestic market (for any business), meaning that US business rely less on international trade to exist than Canadian businesses do, and because the US have much more diverse climate, meaning that most Americans don't feel the need to travel abroad to go on vacation as much as Canadians do.
People in a Edmonton-sized city in the US will usually live reasonably close to another larger city with better air service (in essence, higher population density in most of the US means that secondary cities' catchment areas are generally smaller). No one will need to drive 8 hours to say, CMH, to find the nearest t-atl flight while many will in Alberta, BC, or SK will find YEG very convenient, albeit maybe 8 hours away (8 hours better than 12 or 14, right?).
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tomcbaker
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting stratocruiser (Reply 7):
Many of these Canadian cities, as well as being significant destinations for tourist travel, also have large ethnic British and European populations which undoubtedly helps to support the viability of TATL services.

   The proportion of the Canadian population that are first or second generation Canadians from Europe (particularly western Europe and the UK) is very high, probably higher than the US since Canada retained its European roots/connections for several hundred years longer than the US which allowed for easier emigration from there.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 8):

Is it easier for Canadians to get into the UK and Europe, being a crown colony?
Quoting cloudboy (Reply 8):
Is it easier for Brittish and Europeans to get into Canada than the US?

I think the crown colony part has already been covered by others. With that being said, one thing that seems to be getting overlooked here is the Working Holiday Visa. If you are under 30 and you are from Canada, you can go work very easily in Australia, the UK, New Zealand, etc... The important part is that this is likewise true for most Europeans, Aussies and Kiwis; they can come to Canada to live and work very easily under this working holiday visa scheme, which is something they can't do in the US since the program doesn't apply there. Example: BC is known for having a fairly high proportion of Australian 20-somethings, particularly those working in outdoor fields, and even more particularly at ski resorts like in Whistler. Most are there under the working holiday visa.

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 13):
It isn't, it has been an independent country (that happens to share its ceremonial head of state with the UK), for many decades now.

It has been just over 3 decades. Canadian sovereignty has been piecemeal over the last 150 years rather than all at once like the Americans got it. Several British North American colonies united to form Canada in the 1860's. However, they remained British dominions for another 70 years until the Statute of Westminister granted a greater degree of independence in 1931. Still, even after that, there was no form of Canadian citizenship until 1947; until then, Canadians received British passports and were categorized as British subjects. Newfoundland (Canada's tenth province) was a British colony until 1949 when it joined Canada. The Canadian flag didn't exist until the mid 1960's (until then, the UK union flag was the official flag of Canada), and full independence did not come until 1982, when the British North American Act was revised to remove the ability of the UK parliament to change/influence Canadian laws, and even that met with resistance from the UK House of Lords at the time.

So, yes, we are independent, but my grandparents' generation born here were born on Canadian soil as British subjects with British citizenship and the right to abode in the UK, and the UK parliament in London still had control over Canadian laws when I was born and I'm only in my 30's. The whole QE2 as head of state and commonwealth stuff is largely irrelevant since it's just for show. If you want to split hairs, technically, the Queen can dissolve the Canadian parliament if she chooses to do so even right now under her constitutional powers as the monarch, but that would never happen.

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 13):
Is it easier for Canadians to get into the UK or the rest of Europe? No, neither Canadians nor US citizens require a visa for normal tourist or business visits, nor any kind of visa waiver.

I disagree. Canadians are eligible for the Work Holiday Visa (Tier 5) in the UK and much of Europe and Americans are not. Additionally, as commonwealth citizens, Canadians are eligible to directly join the British Armed Forces (Army, Navy, RAF) and Americans are not.
Tom
 
strfyr51
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:05 pm

citied like IND, BNA and CMH are all in the region of other international hubs, IND is 3 hours from ORD and a 40 Minute flight
CMH has DTW, ORD, JFK, IAD and EWR as gateways BNA has ORD, ATL and IAH as gateways In the USA the International flights require immigration, Security and other Expenses for that city,
Were they to step up and accept the costs? Sure! Bur then they'd have to get an airline to provide that service. Canadian Passengers Pre Clear US customs in Canada so BNA, IND and CMH passegers
Could not only transit Canada to the EU, But multiple gateways from the USA. It's a matter of convenience and you're missing a LOT of cities too. PIT, BUF, MEM, STL, MCI, OKC, TUL, are cities the size of
YEG, YYC, and YUL. .
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 32):
Additionally, as commonwealth citizens, Canadians are eligible to directly join the British Armed Forces

....after having lived in the UK for at least 5 years, yes. This wasn't the case just a few years ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ters-try-cut-military-numbers.html
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tomcbaker
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
Regarding Canadians traveling more, I think it is more "Canadians want to travel internationally more". Domestic Canadian tickets are so outrageously expensive it makes a trip to Asia or Europe look like a really good bargain.

CAD fell a bit against USD, but not the implosion level like EUR-USD, so it's actually cheaper for Canadians to visit Europe, further driving nonstop transatlantic traffic.

I tend to agree with this. I have no facts, statistics or scientific figures to support this, but in my opinion, Canadians in general like to travel abroad more than Americans. I've lived in both countries (as well as others overseas in Europe and Asia) and even though the USA is roughly 9-10 times the size of Canada in population, I've often found Canadians at higher rates in Africa, Asia, Australia/Oceania and in parts of Europe at higher rates than Americans over the last 20 years. As someone else on here mentioned, the US and Canada have a lot in common, but they have many differences, too. The cultures aren't nearly as identical as you'd imagine (living in both countries has made me realize that!), and travel in Canada is more widely embraced than in the US.

Additionally, to jetblue's later point, the CAD has definitely taken a nosedive in value lately, but that hasn't significantly changed foreign/international airfare costs here. If anything, it has made it cheaper to fly overseas from Canada rather than driving down to the US to do it. I travel a lot for work but on personal vacations I used to drive down to Seattle frequently until last year because the flights were cheaper. In the last 6-8 months, I've noticed foreign flights in general are a lot cheaper out of YVR than SEA for me, especially when adjusting for the exchange rate. It's still quite affordable; I recently saw roundtrip YVR-LHR-CPT on BA for $1200 CAD, and roundtrip YVR-CDG-DXB for $1100 CAD on AF/KLM. I scarcely remember a time recently when it's been this cheap to fly long haul out of YVR.
Tom
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 34):
....after having lived in the UK for at least 5 years, yes. This wasn't the case just a few years ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ters-try-cut-military-numbers.html

Interesting! Shows how old I'm getting - when I was finishing high school 15+ years ago, HM's forces were wide open to Canadians. Example: This Canadian was turned down by the RCAF, went across the pond and joined the RAF, and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross in 2007 by HM for bravery while flying an RAF Chinook in combat (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canadian-raf-pilot-honoured-by-queen-elizabeth-1.242377). I personally know another Canadian from BC who went over in 2004 and joined the Royal Army, saw combat in Afghanistan, and is now back in Canada. That's definitely too bad, but at least they CAN still join the British military, unlike someone from, say, the US, China or Brazil.
Tom
 
tortugamon
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):
Percentage of passport holders is just one indicator as to why Americans don't travel abroad as much.

Dang what a false sense of logic. Yeah, Americans don't travel because they don't have passports; so Americans can't think ahead the 4 weeks it takes to get one or they don't have the $100 bucks? No they don't travel as much internationally and therefore they don't need passports.

The article you posted is completely off base. I wish I would find fewer Americans when I travel  

I agree that Americans don't need to cross boarders to see different cultures or beautiful scenery or fantastic locations unlike any country on earth.

tortugamon
 
neromancer
Posts: 70
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 2):
Don't Canadians also get more vacation time than their U.S. cousins? I'll be curious if the rising dollar/falling Loonie dynamic may curtail some of the thinner routes that have sprung up in the past few years. The falling Loonie is going to cause increased Canadian inflation, and the collapse of resource prices might soften the Canadian economy for the next 13-18 months.

No on average Canadians have similar vacation time to Americans.

And while the falling CAD vs. USD will have some impacts it will also bring benefits. For example it's now less expensive for other people to travel to Canada.

And while falling resources prices will effect parts of the economy. Especially places like Alberta. They will have a benefit to the Economy in Ontario and Quebec.
 
RKSofACinUSA
Posts: 67
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:07 pm

The answer lies in numbers. Look at the number of cities with trans-oceanic flights in Canada: YVR, YYC, YEG, YYZ, YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYT.

In the USA: SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, SAN, PHX, DEN, DFW, IAH, MSP, ORD, CVG, DTW, ATL, PHL, PIT, BOS, JFK, EWR, RDU, CLT, MCO, TPA, FLL and MIA (I probably missed a few too). This is proportional to the size and distribution of the populations of each country.

Though Canadians have slightly different travel patterns than Americans, it is not significant enough to make generalizations. Bottom line is that these airports have enough demand to support the flights.
 
tomcbaker
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting RKSofACinUSA (Reply 39):
Though Canadians have slightly different travel patterns than Americans, it is not significant enough to make generalizations. Bottom line is that these airports have enough demand to support the flights.

One thing that is safe to generalize is that with the recent, substantial change in the value of the CAD vs the USD, Canadian travel patterns ARE changing and will continue to do so. By that, I mean that Canadians will drive to US border airports like BTV and BLI less than they did from 2008-2013, they'll fly out of US airports to foreign destinations less (such as driving down from Vancouver to Seattle to fly to London, which was done a lot the last few years because of exchange rates making BA's flights to LHR cheaper from SEA than from YVR), and they'll fly within the US and to US destinations less.

.77 cents to the USD is a big deal. Last summer it was at around .95 cents and it was at parity as recently as a year or two ago. I travel weekly for work and I have noticed that international long haul flights from YVR are now cheaper than SEA with the exchange rate. I've also noticed that most of my friends and work colleagues are flying to Mexico, the DR and Cuba more now than to Florida, California and Hawaii, because the 20-25% markup on even food and drinks in the US is now less of a deal for us than it was a year ago.
Tom
 
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falstaff
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 25):
Costs from the US to Europe are the same or less than Canada to Europe so that's not it.

I recently purchased tickets for a summer trip on AC for YQG-YYZ-LHR-MAN. The price was $700 less than DL DTW-AMS-MAN. I'll take an extra stop to save $700.

Quoting mpsrent (Reply 29):
as to why Canadian's love small, hatchback cars. It's because we are different.

The Canadians I know, in southwestern Ontario, love big trucks and V-8s.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 35):
Canadians in general like to travel abroad more than Americans.

I know a lot of Canadians like to visit the USA. DTW's parking lots usually have a good number cars with Ontario plates. I know a great many of those people are flying on US domestic flights.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 31):
Because the US has a much larger domestic market (for any business), meaning that US business rely less on international trade to exist than Canadian businesses do

My dad is in the railroad equipment business and he does business in both the US and Canada. His company builds electronic equipment for railroad passenger cars, trolley cars and transit buses. On the OEM side they do a lot of business with both countries, but on the aftermarket side they do much more business in the US. There are more railroad passenger cars in the USA than there are in Canada, more buses too, so the need for parts and equipment is higher.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
RKSofACinUSA
Posts: 67
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 40):
.77 cents to the USD is a big deal.

I totally agree with you. But the original question in this post asked why a Canadian city of equal population to one in the US can support international service when the US counterpart cannot. These patterns developed before the recent strengthening of the USD and have more to do with geography.

As an example, look at the population of Halifax - ~390,000. Halifax has non-stop yearly service to LHR. Milwaukee, WI has a population nearly double that and does not have any international service. Why? I believe the answer is in the geography. Milwaukee like many US cities is in close proximity to another large international hub. The residents in the Halifax area cannot exactly hop in their cars easily to leave from another large city.
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 41):
I know a lot of Canadians like to visit the USA. DTW's parking lots usually have a good number cars with Ontario plates. I know a great many of those people are flying on US domestic flights.

Good for you. But if you're really arguing against the point that Canadians are (and will continue to) travel less to the US or through the US to overseas destinations when our currency is at a 10 year low to the USD, you aren't really arguing with me, you're arguing with basic economics. I didn't say Canadians will no longer visit the US. I said Canadians will visit the US less and fly through it less than they have the last 5 years, because it's about 25% more expensive to do so now than it was just a year or two ago, and that's a lot of money.

Quoting RKSofACinUSA (Reply 42):
I believe the answer is in the geography. Milwaukee like many US cities is in close proximity to another large international hub. The residents in the Halifax area cannot exactly hop in their cars easily to leave from another large city.

Yes, I agree with you here, though I think one factor you are not including is the cultural attraction Canadians have to not only traveling, but in particular to traveling to Europe. Our connection and history with Europe (and particularly the UK) is much stronger than most 3rd+ generation Americans' of European decent since we tend to have more recent European emigrants and we ourselves retained our connection to the UK until very recently. This can't be discounted; as I mentioned, my grandparents' generation of Canadians were British citizens. My parents' generation spent the first 10-20 years of their lives with the union (UK) flag. My generation was born when the UK parliament could still make and change our laws. It makes a difference.

[Edited 2015-03-18 14:47:03]
Tom
 
hjulicher
Posts: 699
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 41):
I recently purchased tickets for a summer trip on AC for YQG-YYZ-LHR-MAN. The price was $700 less than DL DTW-AMS-MAN. I'll take an extra stop to save $700.

As a Detroiter myself, I've never considered flying from YQG anywhere because it always involved flying to YYZ first. But when you mentioned in another post that flights to Europe via YQG are significantly cheaper than from DTW, I started playing around and seeing what type of differences exist.

On every city pair I tried for periods in April and June, flying from YQG was always significantly cheaper (generally around $300 USD cheaper). This surprised me as there is quite a lot of stimulation for travel via YQG. DTW is an expensive TATL market. Other than the fluke with MOW, on average, return fares to Europe from DTW were $1300 or higher, whereas, from YQG to the same markets, the fares were between 800-900 USD. Now I know this isn't very statistically accurate, but it does show some trends.

Interestingly, YQG is statically the closest airport to downtown Detroit with commercial air service. Despite many similarities in industry and trade, Detroit and Windsor do not see the amount of cross-border traffic that other metropolitans divided by a river would see (i.e. Camden/CherryHill NJ and Philadelphia, ) I have never heard of anyone traveling to Canada to catch a flight, although I was very aware of the Canadians coming to DTW to catch theirs.

I wonder if it has ever been considered to combine YQG and DTW into one city code DTT? That would then make Detroit one of the few cities with 4 airports under its designator!!!
Detroit Moves the World!
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CHI787ORD
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:57 pm

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 35):
and travel in Canada is more widely embraced than in the US.

I also think comparatively, the US has a lot more domestic destinations of interest for American travelers. Because of the large population and distribution, the varying climates and geographies, you could spend a lifetime traveling within the U.S. and still find a new city, a new national park, a new route, a destination to go to. Canada is very large geographically, but a lot of the country isn't very hospitable to easy travel. The population is only a tenth of the U.S. and is distributed pretty close to the U.S. border. Canada has some great world class cities, but you can largely name them on one hand.

I think a big reason why Americans don't travel as much internationally is that there is a very large selection of domestic destinations to visit. You don't have the same in Canada, so you see Canadians travelling to Europe and U.S. more.
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5744
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RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:57 am

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 44):
I have never heard of anyone traveling to Canada to catch a flight

I have never met anyone who has done that either, but YQG's website makes mention of the fact that people do.

http://www.yqg.ca/international-travel/



I have driven to Windsor many times to catch the train to Toronto or Montreal. I don't hear of many people doing that either.


Before I bought my tickets I called Canadian customs to make sure that it would be ok if I entered Canada to fly out to Europe. The agent I spoke with on the phone said that it was no big deal and that people do it all the time.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
YYZAMS
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:54 pm

RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 41):
I recently purchased tickets for a summer trip on AC for YQG-YYZ-LHR-MAN. The price was $700 less than DL DTW-AMS-MAN. I'll take an extra stop to save $700.

I agree. It is often cheaper to fly to Europe from Canada than from the US though NYC airports sometimes have a good fare.
 
n9801f
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:56 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 24):
1. Calgary and Vancouver are more integrated into the global economy than cities like Indianapolis and Columbus. This presumably creates more demand.

2. Canadian geography makes connections more difficult. E.g., there's no easy or intuitive connection from Halifax or Edmonton to Europe. This makes the business case for a direct flight stronger because people will pay for a direct flight rather than suffer the indignity of awkward connections. Contrast this with Indianapolis with its proximity to hubs like ORD and DTW.

3. Canadians like to travel more.

Those are good points.

It's been a while since I've looked at the stats, but the last I did, you could see very clearly that for mid-sized Canadian cities, the fraction of pax flying to destinations outside of North America was most definitely much higher than for similar-sized US cities.

In addition to the points you raised, could there be an additional factor that the Canadian domestic demographics are different? I've always read that it's much less common to move coast-to-coast or province-to-province within Canada for a job, etc., than it is in the US. Plus a lot of the economic links to/from Canadian cities are north-south (to the US) versus east-west within the US. So maybe when you add it all up, there' s lower domestic propensity to travel within Canada? (Less reason to, due to the combined effects of the above?

Thanks again - I enjoyed your post.
 
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VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 pm

RE: Canadian Vs. US Transatlantic

Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 41):
Quoting mpsrent (Reply 29):
as to why Canadian's love small, hatchback cars. It's because we are different.

The Canadians I know, in southwestern Ontario, love big trucks and V-8s.

You are both right. There are some Canadians that are conscious about the environment and fuel efficiency, and others who just love to drive their gas-guzzling SUVs and live like there is no tomorrow. But one might say the same thing about the US or any other country.

[Edited 2015-03-18 19:21:55]

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