AZ To Close FCO-CCS From April 2015

wingflex744 · Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:12 pm

According to Italiavola Alitalia will terminate operations in Venezuela as of April 2015. Mr Cassano, CEO of the new Alitalia has made the announcement during a roadshow trip to Brazil.

http://italiavola.com/2015/03/19/alitalia-caracas-verra-chiusa/
(Link in Italian only...)

He also suggested that the aircraft will be redeployed to Bogota although no official confirmation has been given.

http://italiavola.com/2015/03/19/bogota-nel-radar-di-alitalia/

Just following the trend? What do you think?

jfk777 · Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:20 pm

Not surprising given the hell foreign airlines are going through to get their money out of Venezuela. Its sad because nearly all European airlines flew to Caracas. TAP, BA and Swissair have at times flown to CCS. Will Iberia, Lufthansa or Air France ever stop flying to CCS ? IF they did CCS would fell very disconnected.

G500 · Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:28 pm

Alitalia and TAP decided to stick with Caracas hoping that went things return to normal, they'd be in prime position. They were Willing to take on loses until the storm passed. And they are realizing that business under Chavez wanna be Mr. Maduro will never be normal.

So Alitalia is basically saying. "nah, never mind, forget this"

TAP is not far behind

797 · Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:17 pm

It was a matter of minutes. I can't believe how this country is being flushed down the drains.

Read below related news:

http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/03/...erving-venezuela-await-a-solution/

rleiro · Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting wingflex744 (Thread starter):
According to Italiavola Alitalia will terminate operations in Venezuela as of April 2015.

Last year they suspended operations for a few months and returned, but with reduced frequencies.

Quoting wingflex744 (Thread starter):
He also suggested that the aircraft will be redeployed to Bogota

Most of airlines serving CCS have opted to redeploy to BOG and PTY.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
Not surprising given the hell foreign airlines are going through to get their money out of Venezuela

Consequences of improvised economic policies... long story.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
Alitalia and TAP decided to stick with Caracas hoping that went things return to normal

There is still a respectable amount of Portuguese and Italian expats living in Venezuela, but the market conditions changed and now maybe it is no longer justifiable to keep CCS up.

Quoting 797 (Reply 3):
It was a matter of minutes.

And it is only the beginning.

zoulastar · Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:19 pm

AF used to send a B747 a few years ago to CCS. Now it's mainly only an A330 service to this destination.
Tough time in Venezuela...

rleiro · Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 5):
AF used to send a B747 a few years ago to CCS. Now it's mainly only an A330 service to this destination.

Almost all international airlines serving Venezuela have downgraded equipment to the smallest type available for the route. CCS used to have A340s, 747s and 767s from European carriers, now the standard is the Airbus A330 (and I am sure that if they could exploit the route with a smaller aircraft, they surely would).

luisde8cd · Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:03 pm

Let's start bets on who will be next? TP? LH?

I don't think AF will leave as they are extensively used by the govts of Venezuela and China to get between CCS and PEK.

Saludos,
Luis

planeguy · Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting rleiro (reply 6)

Quote:
Almost all international airlines serving Venezuela have downgraded equipment to the smallest type available for the route.
CCS used to have A340s, 747s and 767s from European carriers, now the standard is the Airbus A330 (and I am sure that
if they could exploit the route with a smaller aircraft, they surely would).

At the rate that Venezuela is going, it wouldn't surprise me if AF downsized to a 737-200 flown in from FDF.

rleiro · Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:49 am

Quoting planeguy (Reply 8):
At the rate that Venezuela is going, it wouldn't surprise me if AF downsized to a 737-200 flown in from FDF.

In the past CCS used to have it, but as a complement to the daily Paris flight. Even between 1976 and 1982 AF had a weekly Concorde service... amazed and sad to see how things have changed.

Avianca · Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:01 am

Quoting luisde8cd (Reply 7):
Let's start bets on who will be next? TP? LH?

I don't think AF will leave as they are extensively used by the govts of Venezuela and China to get between CCS and PEK.

well for LH, Ccs is still a very good money maker... no wonder why the use the newest first class layout into CCS but starting PTY with leisure layout...

the people (including me) that have no other choice than to buy a ticket from CCS into Europe - pay up to 4000 USD in Eco...

regards
Avianca

zoulastar · Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting planeguy (Reply 8):
At the rate that Venezuela is going, it wouldn't surprise me if AF downsized to a 737-200 flown in from FDF.

Are you back in the 90's?

AF has 2 A320 based in PTP.

And AF A330 config is already quite alright for this route with 208 total seats onboard.

Val

Next one for me to leave this route is TP.

2travel2know2 · Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting luisde8cd (Reply 7):
Let's start bets on who will be next? TP? LH?

I don't think AF will leave as they are extensively used by the govts of Venezuela and China to get between CCS and PEK.

Saludos,
Luis

TP narrowbodies can't make it from FNC to CCS non-stop. TP Venezuelan market is mostly FNC-centered.
AF will have a license to print money (!) for CCS-China traffic as long as CA won't go for that route.
CA already flies to GRU, so if the Chinese see it more convenient to fly its nationals, chances are there could be an one-stop PEK-CCS flight someday.

rleiro · Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 12):
TP narrowbodies can't make it from FNC to CCS non-stop. TP Venezuelan market is mostly FNC-centered.

Even with one of the largest Portuguese expat communities in the world, the operational cost of having 1 - 2 weekly flights does not justify to have the route open. Besides, the high costs of tickets and the payment of these in foreign currency limit even more the existing market.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 12):
CA already flies to GRU, so if the Chinese see it more convenient to fly its nationals, chances are there could be an one-stop PEK-CCS flight someday.

I am unsure whether Venezuela has subscribed fifth freedom rights with China. But a PEK - GRU - CCS flight could work by the time being.

lollomz · Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:59 am

I would prefer PTY instead of BOG, fingers crossed!

LJ · Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:53 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
well for LH, Ccs is still a very good money maker... no wonder why the use the newest first class layout into CCS but starting PTY with leisure layout...

the people (including me) that have no other choice than to buy a ticket from CCS into Europe - pay up to 4000 USD in Eco...

If it's a moneymaker then it can only come from the premium cabins as the Economy fares ex Europe to CCS are normal and usually comparable or lower than BOG. As long as revenues from Venezuela cannot be transferred to Euorpe I don't think that one can se this a making money.

Avianca · Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 15):
If it's a moneymaker then it can only come from the premium cabins as the Economy fares ex Europe to CCS are normal and usually comparable or lower than BOG. As long as revenues from Venezuela cannot be transferred to Euorpe I don't think that one can se this a making money.

well over 1000 USD for the cheapest eco fare isnt that bad add all.
and yes, CCS is still getting a nice amount of premium traffic (specially LH), they have a lot of Oil traffic + Chinese, Russians, Belurussians etc. using the service in Business and First.

Revenues in Venezuela are basically not existing anymore, the very few tickets they are selling in local currency are used for local payments... the big part of the ex CCS tickets these days is sold abroad - with very high prices.

Their should be a reason why LH is bringing into CCS the A330 with the newest first versus BOG were they are still flying with the old F class (using A346), and the new pty flight were they even will offer only 18 J seats.

cheers
Avianca

LJ · Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:35 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
well over 1000 USD for the cheapest eco fare isnt that bad add all.

Not bad, but at peak times very normal. Outside the Summer travel peak season Europe - CCS goes for about USD 800, which isn't bad either but not extremely high given the duration of the flight.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):

Their should be a reason why LH is bringing into CCS the A330 with the newest first versus BOG were they are still flying with the old F class (using A346), and the new pty flight were they even will offer only 18 J seats.

There is more Y demand to BOG (and with higher fares so higher revenue). Not to mention that the cargo capabilities of the A340-600 are much better than the A330 (important for a market like BOG). As they haven't retrofitted any of the FRA based A340-600s (yet), it will be hard to send a A340-600 with new F to BOG. Moreover, as far as I know only 2 A333s haven't been retrofitted with new F and 4 (including those who don't have the new F class) don't have the new C class. Therefore, CCS doesn't seem to get special treatement as the majority of the aircraft have the new premium cabins.

Summa767 · Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:49 am

Quoting lollomz (Reply 14):
I would prefer PTY instead of BOG, fingers crossed!

You might well get both!
As BOG restricts aircraft performance due to its altitude, a non-stop BOG-FCO would most likely be unviable with Alitalia's A332 or 772s (only perhaps a 788 might do it without a significant restriction on paylaod), and so a triangular route would be a very possible option: FCO-BOG-PTY-FCO. Either that, or a stop in Cartagena instead of PTY -after all, Italian airlines -including Alitalia very recently- have done charter flights to CTG.

Moreover, Panama's government will subsidise flights to Panama, therefore making it even more appealing to fly there.

We'll have to wait and see.

LJ · Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:15 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 18):
You might well get both!
As BOG restricts aircraft performance due to its altitude, a non-stop BOG-FCO would most likely be unviable with Alitalia's A332 or 772s (only perhaps a 788 might do it without a significant restriction on paylaod), and so a triangular route would be a very possible option: FCO-BOG-PTY-FCO. Either that, or a stop in Cartagena instead of PTY -after all, Italian airlines -including Alitalia very recently- have done charter flights to CTG.

I don't see the point for AZ flying to PTY. Not only isn't there any need from a Skyteam perspective (KLM flies daily and AF 5 weekly in S15, 3 weekly in W15). Moreover, LH will enter this market and unless I missed some O&D relation between Italy and Panama, I doubt AZ can make money flying to PTY (especially when it would be a triangular flight).

Summa767 · Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 19):
I don't see the point for AZ flying to PTY.

Well, the word is that there are talks between AZ and the Panamanian governemnt. As for the other reasons, I thought that I was clear: Panama subsidises airlines for flying there as it wants to improve connectivity and attract more tourists (something like US$5m a year -and it has clearly worked!), and since technically it's likely that a stop would be needed out of BOG, then using a place where there's income for flying there would make sense.

jfk777 · Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 17):
There is more Y demand to BOG (and with higher fares so higher revenue). Not to mention that the cargo capabilities of the A340-600 are much better than the A330 (important for a market like BOG). As they haven't retrofitted any of the FRA based A340-600s (yet), it will be hard to send a A340-600 with new F to BOG. Moreover, as far as I know only 2 A333s haven't been retrofitted with new F and 4 (including those who don't have the new F class) don't have the new C class. Therefore, CCS doesn't seem to get special treatement as the majority of the aircraft have the new premium cabins.

LH needs a 4 engine plane to BOG because of he altitude.

pipeafcr · Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
Their should be a reason why LH is bringing into CCS the A330 with the newest first versus BOG were they are still flying with the old F class (using A346)

the BOG market is much larger than CCS

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
LH needs a 4 engine plane to BOG because of he altitude.

Rumor has it that LH will serve BOG with the 748i as they are to transfer all their 346s to MUC

Excuse the offtopic please

LJ · Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 20):

Well, the word is that there are talks between AZ and the Panamanian governemnt. As for the other reasons, I thought that I was clear: Panama subsidises airlines for flying there as it wants to improve connectivity and attract more tourists (something like US$5m a year -and it has clearly worked!), and since technically it's likely that a stop would be needed out of BOG, then using a place where there's income for flying there would make sense

Getting USD 5mio is tempting, but if (opportunity) costs are higher, you still loose money. Moreover, I doubt the subsidies will last forever and thus at one point you'll need the traffic and yield to make it porfitable. Finally, a triangular flight is very uncompetitive. I know, AZ need it if they want to serve BOG, but a stop in Columbia (CTG as you mention), makes much more sense (PTY would add to the flight duration and thus make it even less atractive for the BOG bound passengers to take the flight).

Summa767 · Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 23):
I know, AZ need it if they want to serve BOG, but a stop in Columbia (CTG as you mention), makes much more sense (PTY would add to the flight duration and thus make it even less atractive for the BOG bound passengers to take the flight).

I am sure that AZ will take the different factors into consideration. The PTY stop would mean about 5% longer than one CTG, but no cash incentives.
TP does the tringular with BOG and PTY. It is no runaaway sucess, with traffic to both being on the weak side, but at the same TP has kept the operation like that, even though it could fly BOG-LIS non-stop (even if its A330s are too restricted, it has A340s)

Rafabozzolla · Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:44 pm

AV does fine to MAD and LHR, why would there be such a tool for a flight to FCO?

Summa767 · Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 25):
AV does fine to MAD and LHR, why would there be such a tool for a flight to FCO?

900 Km difference. That means over an hour flying, and over 6 tonnes of additional fuel needed (rough, but conservative figures)
That means that if AV in its A330s (soon going to 787 for a reason) already can't carry any cargo the distance to FCO would mean having to leave 50 empty seats apart from taking no cargo so that the fuel needed can be lifted instead. I doubt that is commercially viable for a market like BOG, with a limited demand for premium seats.

SJOtoLIR · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting rleiro (Reply 4):
Most of airlines serving CCS have opted to redeploy to BOG and PTY.

Yes, but the new services supplied by European airlines heading to either Bogota and Panama City are not necessarily based on the fact that they couldn't operate profitable in Caracas.
Both BOG and PTY are vibrant airports serving important regions and financial centers. This fact disregards the current situation in Venezuela.

Regards.

rleiro · Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:59 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 27):
Yes, but the new services supplied by European airlines heading to either Bogota and Panama City are not necessarily based on the fact that they couldn't operate profitable in Caracas.
Both BOG and PTY are vibrant airports serving important regions and financial centers. This fact disregards the current situation in Venezuela.

Although the economic growth in Panama and Colombia is a factor, the deteriorating situation in Venezuela has spurred TP and AZ to seek a connecting point in the region. Tap already started operations in Colombia and Panama, benefiting from Star Alliance hubs in the region, and it is rumoured that they will drop CCS soon. The case of Alitalia as being a Skyteam member might be different, as its sole codeshare partners in the region are Delta and Aeromexico. I presume that we will see AZ opening MEX first before BOG.

Regards,

SCL767 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:37 am

Quoting rleiro (Reply 28):
The case of Alitalia as being a Skyteam member might be different, as its sole codeshare partners in the region are Delta and Aeromexico.

AZ also codeshares with GOL and plans to increase flights to Brazil among other destinations: http://newsavia.com/alitalia-promete...rio-de-janeiro-no-final-deste-ano/

Quoting rleiro (Reply 28):
I presume that we will see AZ opening MEX first before BOG.

Hopefully AZ will take advantage of AF's reduction in capacity on the CDG-SCL route and launch the FCO-SCL route later this year.

2travel2know2 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting rleiro (Reply 28):
The case of Alitalia as being a Skyteam member might be different, as its sole codeshare partners in the region are Delta and Aeromexico. I presume that we will see AZ opening MEX first before BOG.

That hasn't stopped KL and AF from code-sharing with CM and adding connecting possibilities @ PTY hub.
It's rumoured CM code-share with KL/AF and CM F.F. MileagePlus not able to earn miles when flying KL/AF to/from PTY encouraged CM to start its own F.F. programme.
AZ is welcome in PTY but KL, AF, IB, TP, soon LH and possibly AZ will sure have a tough fight for PTY-Europe non.stop flights passengers ahead.

SJOtoLIR · Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 30):
KL and AF from code-sharing with CM

As far as I know, only KL code-shares with CM through Panama City.
Back to the AZ topic, Alitalia used to fly the CCS-MXP sector instead, some years ago.

Regards.

wingflex744 · Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:07 am

Well...apparently AZ has changed mind again...the same source is now reporting that AZ will continue their CCS ops, although with a limited frequency (1 weekly) during the summer schedule...

http://italiavola.com/2015/03/25/alitalia-continuera-su-caracas/

2travel2know2 · Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting wingflex744 (Reply 32):
Well...apparently AZ has changed mind again...the same source is now reporting that AZ will continue their CCS ops, although with a limited frequency (1 weekly) during the summer schedule...

Would that be a red-eyes both ways rotation to allow the same crew to fly to and from CCS?

SJOtoLIR · Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting wingflex744 (Reply 32):
AZ will continue their CCS ops, although with a limited frequency (1 weekly) during the summer schedule...

Alitalia is clearly in disadvantaged compared to other European carriers operating in Caracas: LH FRA-CCS, IB MAD-CCS, AF CDG-CCS and so forth.
On the other hand, none of these carriers are deploying daily flights on CCS-Europe at this time.

Regards.

SCL767 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting wingflex744 (Reply 32):
the same source is now reporting that AZ will continue their CCS ops, although with a limited frequency (1 weekly) during the summer schedule...

Interesting. TAM will soon reduce GRU-CCS from 3x weekly to a weekly service. LA will now operate the SCL-CCS-MIA route three or four times a month instead of a dedicated weekly service.

goldorak · Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:15 pm

It seems confirmed that AZ will continue CCS once a week
http://airlineroute.net/2015/03/26/az-ccs-may15/

goldorak · Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:10 pm

But in april....only 3 flights during the entire month

http://airlineroute.net/2015/03/30/az-ccs-apr15/

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