slcdeltarumd11
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Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:23 am

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=33871824&nid...-of-paperwork-error&s_cid=queue-18

Good video on this bizarre situation. I can see it happening. Interesting part of the video is that they downgraded and were using a smaller plane. Looks like a CR9 became a CR7. They didn't have the paperwork? I find it weird they went back to SLC when they landed in Tuscon, why not do some paperwork and continue the flight or fly a new plane into Tuscon to finish their flight?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:35 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter):
Good video on this bizarre situation. I can see it happening. Interesting part of the video is that they downgraded and were using a smaller plane. Looks like a CR9 became a CR7. They didn't have the paperwork? I find it weird they went back to SLC when they landed in Tuscon, why not do some paperwork and continue the flight or fly a new plane into Tuscon to finish their flight?

And surely Tuscon has Skywest and/or DL personnel present, right?
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usxguy
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:16 am

could be a CBP issue too
xx
 
chrisair
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter):
Tuscon, why not do some paperwork and continue the flight or fly a new plane into Tuscon to finish their flight?
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
And surely Tuscon has Skywest and/or DL personnel present, right?

Where is this "TuScon" place you speak of?  

Skywest has a maintenance base and personnel in TuCson, however.  
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:58 pm

It sounds like someone in dispatch made a mistake. From the article it appears that there was a last minute airplane substitution. It could be on the FAA, CBP or Mexican side. Since the airplane ended up going back to SLC, I wonder if there was something wrong with the paperwork on the airplane. It could also be the crew too.
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FLY2TUS
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:29 pm

Skywest has Maintenance and a crew base in TUS, yes. Delta has their own CSA's and ramp is outsourced to DGS.

The KSL story is a bit vague (no surprised there), but it sounds like the last minute aircraft swap didn't include the new tail number on the GENDEC, the crew noticed it mid-flight, and decided to turn around and divert to TUS for fuel. Someone in St. George screwed the pooch on that one.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 3):
Where is this "TuScon" place you speak of?

Haha, yes, as a native Tucsonan, we're all used to people misspelling the name of our city, eh?
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:31 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter):
why not do some paperwork and continue the flight or fly a new plane into Tuscon to finish their flight?

What time was the flight at? I ask because Tucson CBP may not have been able to process the flight whereas Salt Lake CBP could. If the plane had landed in TUS, passengers would have been stranded on the aircraft.
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roseflyer
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter):
why not do some paperwork and continue the flight or fly a new plane into Tuscon to finish their flight?

What time was the flight at? I ask because Tucson CBP may not have been able to process the flight whereas Salt Lake CBP could. If the plane had landed in TUS, passengers would have been stranded on the aircraft.

Why would they be stranded on the airplane? The airplane never touched down in another country. As far as I know, a diversion on an international outbound flight from the US, won't cause any passengers to get quarantined on a flight in the United States because there is no exit immigration.
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:14 pm

Did anyone else notice they're showing a *Skywest* Fokker 100 in the video?  Oh the media.


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Yakflyer
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter):
Interesting part of the video is that they downgraded and were using a smaller plane. Looks like a CR9 became a CR7. They didn't have the paperwork? I find it weird they went back to SLC when they landed in Tuscon, why not do some paperwork and continue the flight or fly a new plane into Tuscon to finish their flight?

I don't know this for sure, but I am speculating it may have been one of two things or both. In order for SkyWest to fly an airplane to Mexico it has to be specifically authorized to fly the specific aircraft (by tail number) on the Operations Specifications issued by the FAA. While SkyWest flies the CRJ-700 to Mexico on the United side, it does not on the Delta side. On the Delta side only CRJ-900s are scheduled. Additionally, since no CRJ-700s the operate for Delta are scheduled to Mexico, likely there is not insurance coverage for those aircraft to operate in Mexico.

When for whatever reason the CRJ-900 that was scheduled for the flight became unavailable, someone in SGU probably without thinking but knowing SKW operated CRJ-700s for UA thought a CRJ-700 could be subbed on this flight. I'm thinking the flight got far enough into Mexico to need to refuel in TUS because it did not have enough fuel to return directly to SLC. The reason the plane could not be re-dispatched from TUS or SLC is there was no way to get the specific aircraft legal for Mexico in a timely way.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Perhaps, because it was an equipment sub, someone forgot to change the a/c registration number on the paperwork (general dec) or even in the flight plan.

[Edited 2015-03-23 08:47:52]
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as739x
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting FLY2TUS (Reply 5):

If it was the fin number on the GenDec, it has nothing to do with Dispatch, nor SkyWest unless they do the Customer Service in the upline station. Thats on the departing station ground staff and however they process the Intl paperwork. Some stations/airline do it from the cargo office.

However, from the sounds of the article it was more an issue with aircraft paperwork. Each aircraft has to have certain items to be allowed into another country. This could have been caught enroute by Dispatch when they realized a swap had been done into a non-intl aircraft. This has happened with UAX flights going into Canada, thought Canada is more forgiving.
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 11):
Some stations/airline do it from the cargo office.

When DL mainline was still operating the Canada flights from SLC, we did all the paperwork at DL cargo.
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blueflyer
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
Why would they be stranded on the airplane? The airplane never touched down in another country.

Passengers on an international flight have left US territory when the door is closed for pushback. I have been quarantined in a sterile room at IAD because my plane never made it to the runway after pushback and needed to be emptied of passengers to run some repair/maintenance/whatever. Letting us out in the terminal was not an option because we'd need to clear customs and immigration first.
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Maverick623
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):

What time was the flight at? I ask because Tucson CBP may not have been able to process the flight whereas Salt Lake CBP could. If the plane had landed in TUS, passengers would have been stranded on the aircraft.

TUS CBP is open 24 hours. Also, since the flight never touched down in Mexico, they would not have to be cleared.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
Passengers on an international flight have left US territory when the door is closed for pushback.

Not true at all. For the immigration and customs purposes, passengers have left US territory when the wheels touch down in another country.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
I have been quarantined in a sterile room at IAD because my plane never made it to the runway after pushback and needed to be emptied of passengers to run some repair/maintenance/whatever. Letting us out in the terminal was not an option because we'd need to clear customs and immigration first.

Unless the plane had thru passengers from another country that never cleared CBP, that was not the reason you were sequestered. I don't think any airline operates such a flight out of IAD.

Quoting Yakflyer (Reply 9):
likely there is not insurance coverage for those aircraft to operate in Mexico.

This was the most likely issue.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:54 pm

I dont get why they couldnt fly another plane in ?
 
Maverick623
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
I dont get why they couldnt fly another plane in ?

Crew scheduling, airport curfews, lack of a spare... there's a whole host of reasons why things don't happen.

EDIT: The issue was caused due to an aircraft swap to a type that wasn't legal to fly to Mexico. Sounds like there wasn't an available aircraft to fly down...

[Edited 2015-03-23 12:24:31]
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
EDIT: The issue was caused due to an aircraft swap to a type that wasn't legal to fly to Mexico. Sounds like there wasn't an available aircraft to fly down...

Back in the 80s, after the DL/WA merger, I was working in the ramp coordinator's office in SLC. One evening, we had the flight to BUR about to be cancelled because of a mechanical. It was a 737-300 and it was going up against the noise curfew in BUR if it left any later. The coordinator realized that there was a spare 737-200 sitting there, so we switched equipment. The -200 wasn't legal for the BUR curfew......he knew it, we knew it, but that didn't matter. He just feigned innocence the next day when his bosses asked him about it.  
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MaverickTTT
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:04 pm



Quoting FLY2TUS (Reply 5):
The KSL story is a bit vague (no surprised there), but it sounds like the last minute aircraft swap didn't include the new tail number on the GENDEC, the crew noticed it mid-flight, and decided to turn around and divert to TUS for fuel. Someone in St. George screwed the pooch on that one.

The tail number on a GenDec can be changed fairly easily...and "someone in SGU" has no control over the GenDec. That's a ground ops function that Dispatch has no control over.

That said, and without being fully briefed on the situation, the likelihood is that some one SGU actually did screw the pooch. I'm going to assume that the aircraft that the flight was swapped into is not on the Mexican Dirección General de Aeronáutica Civil's approved aircraft list for OO. The way I understand it, each aircraft has to be approved by the DGAC and on the air carrier's DGAC certificate before being allowed to enter the country. It's a process that takes a little bit of time, so it's not something that can be immediately approved. This, combined with likely crew duty limitations, could explain why the aircraft returned to SLC.

[Edited 2015-03-23 13:08:27]
 
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vatveng
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

EDIT: The issue was caused due to an aircraft swap to a type that wasn't legal to fly to Mexico. Sounds like there wasn't an available aircraft to fly down...

The CRJ700 isn't legal in Mexico?  
 
bnatraveler
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:46 pm

It looks like the recovery flight was SKW4865 - which also appears to be a CRJ7 so perhaps the issue was truly the ship assigned and not the fleet (CRJ7 flown by OO for DL).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...5/history/20150318/1245Z/KSLC/MMPR
 
N353SK
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):

I dont get why they couldnt fly another plane in ?

It could be that there was not an aircraft immediately available. Perhaps it would have been at least an hour or two before a suitable plane arrived at SLC for dispatch to swap and reroute. It also could be that the crew to fly the second attempt had to be called in, which takes a few hours.

Quoting vatveng (Reply 19):
The CRJ700 isn't legal in Mexico?  

It's most likely a matter of insurance.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):

It sounds like someone in dispatch made a mistake

Unlikely

I think the registration "N" number wasn't on file with the Mexican DGAC. Not a difficult process but it would take a few days. I'm really surprised that ATC cought it and denied entry.

Quoting FLY2TUS (Reply 5):
it sounds like the last minute aircraft swap didn't include the new tail number on the GENDEC,

Easily fixed and would not cause a diversion.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
What time was the flight at? I ask because Tucson CBP may not have been able to process the flight whereas Salt Lake CBP could. If the plane had landed in TUS, passengers would have been stranded on the aircraft.

As stated before the A/C never landed in another country so no Customs Clearance required.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Unless the plane had thru passengers from another country that never cleared CBP, that was not the reason you were sequestered. I don't think any airline operates such a flight out of IAD.

Customers MUST clear customs/immigration at their first entry point into the country. Even if the routing was PVR-IAD-YUL all passenger would clear customs in IAD and YUL. Exceptions could be made for a fuel stop and no one gets on or off the plane.
I think the issue with the sequester was no TSA available to rescreen the people.
 
alphaomega
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 22):
Customers MUST clear customs/immigration at their first entry point into the country. Even if the routing was PVR-IAD-YUL all passenger would clear customs in IAD and YUL. Exceptions could be made for a fuel stop and no one gets on or off the plane.
I think the issue with the sequester was no TSA available to rescreen the people.

Not always true - reference NZ 1 and 2 AKL-LAX-LHR and the return.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 23):

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 22):
Customers MUST clear customs/immigration at their first entry point into the country. Even if the routing was PVR-IAD-YUL all passenger would clear customs in IAD and YUL. Exceptions could be made for a fuel stop and no one gets on or off the plane.
I think the issue with the sequester was no TSA available to rescreen the people.

Not always true - reference NZ 1 and 2 AKL-LAX-LHR and the return.

The AKL-LHR passengers would clear in LAX. Same on the return.
 
fxra
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:43 am

Quoting Yakflyer (Reply 9):

I don't know this for sure, but I am speculating it may have been one of two things or both. In order for SkyWest to fly an airplane to Mexico it has to be specifically authorized to fly the specific aircraft (by tail number) on the Operations Specifications issued by the FAA. While SkyWest flies the CRJ-700 to Mexico on the United side, it does not on the Delta side. On the Delta side only CRJ-900s are scheduled. Additionally, since no CRJ-700s the operate for Delta are scheduled to Mexico, likely there is not insurance coverage for those aircraft to operate in Mexico.

When for whatever reason the CRJ-900 that was scheduled for the flight became unavailable, someone in SGU probably without thinking but knowing SKW operated CRJ-700s for UA thought a CRJ-700 could be subbed on this flight. I'm thinking the flight got far enough into Mexico to need to refuel in TUS because it did not have enough fuel to return directly to SLC. The reason the plane could not be re-dispatched from TUS or SLC is there was no way to get the specific aircraft legal for Mexico in a timely way.

I think you're probably close. US carriers (and everyone else operating into Mexico) is issued an Ops Specs by the Mexican authority. And just like adding a plane to your US Op SPecs, you have to add it to the Mexican one. Or, another scenario is this airplane was not insured to go into Mexico. As a dispatcher, I've never even looked at that in my daily work flows. I also doubt US ATC knew, some one in the ops center probably caught it and immediately got the planed turned around.

Just another example of the minutia in the volumes of regulations and rules that can bite you on rear.
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alphaomega
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:58 am

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 24):

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 23):

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 22):
Customers MUST clear customs/immigration at their first entry point into the country. Even if the routing was PVR-IAD-YUL all passenger would clear customs in IAD and YUL. Exceptions could be made for a fuel stop and no one gets on or off the plane.
I think the issue with the sequester was no TSA available to rescreen the people.

Not always true - reference NZ 1 and 2 AKL-LAX-LHR and the return.

The AKL-LHR passengers would clear in LAX. Same on the return.

No, they don't, which is why I mentioned it. The AKL-LHR pax can get off the aircraft and wait for the departure in a transit lounge, but the baggage is left onboard and nothing clears CBP except for the pax travelling with LAX as their final destination.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:04 am

That specific airplane was not authorized to operate to Mexico. That was the cause of the diversion.
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WesternA318
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 17):
Back in the 80s, after the DL/WA merger, I was working in the ramp coordinator's office in SLC. One evening, we had the flight to BUR about to be cancelled because of a mechanical. It was a 737-300 and it was going up against the noise curfew in BUR if it left any later. The coordinator realized that there was a spare 737-200 sitting there, so we switched equipment. The -200 wasn't legal for the BUR curfew......he knew it, we knew it, but that didn't matter. He just feigned innocence the next day when his bosses asked him about it.

LOL, good luck trying to get that done nowadays!!
 
N1120A
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 26):
The AKL-LHR pax can get off the aircraft and wait for the departure in a transit lounge,

Not anymore.
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HNL
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 26):
No, they don't, which is why I mentioned it. The AKL-LHR pax can get off the aircraft and wait for the departure in a transit lounge, but the baggage is left onboard and nothing clears CBP except for the pax travelling with LAX as their final destination.

When NZ moved over to TBIT from T2 the transit lounge process ended. All pax must deplane and clear formalities at LAX.
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N1120A
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RE: Delta SLC-PVR Denied Access To Land In Mexico 3/17

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:20 pm

Quoting HNL (Reply 30):
When NZ moved over to TBIT from T2 the transit lounge process ended. All pax must deplane and clear formalities at LAX.

I'm not sure, but I do think they have entered into a protocol where they don't have to claim bags on through flights, but they do clear immigration formalities.
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