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chrisp390
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AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:59 pm

I was wondering if anyone has the schedule for the AA 772 refurbishment and any information on which routes are getting the refurbished aircraft first.

I am planning to fly NRT-LAX in late July and was hoping by then it may be upgraded to a refurbished aircraft.

I apologize if there is a thread somewhere else on this topic. I assumed there would be but searched quite extensively and could not find anything.
 
realsim
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:17 pm

The retrofitted 772s are shown as 772 in AA's schedules, instead of 777, which are the aircraft with the old config.

They are only flying MIA-MAD/BCN for now.
 
apodino
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:42 pm

AA has been having issues with the seat vendors on this that they are working to solve which is also affecting the 787 delivery schedule as well. The project is sort of on hold until this is cleared up, but look for this to last until late 2017.
 
wn676
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):
AA has been having issues with the seat vendors on this that they are working to solve which is also affecting the 787 delivery schedule as well. The project is sort of on hold until this is cleared up, but look for this to last until late 2017.

Is this the same vendor that US had issues with a few years back? The first few A332s were delivered with recliners in J, and I know it pushed the A333 refurbishment back as well.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
apodino
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 3):

It sounds like it. From what I hear this is a contract that was signed back in the Horton era and Parker and Isom inherited it even though they don't seem to care for this vendor.
 
ericm2031
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:03 pm

Yes, Zodiac is the vendor for the new seats and is the same vendor that LUS used before.

It was said at a recent Town Hall meeting that the 777s have been pushed back in order to prioritize getting seats for the 787s as fast as possible. They have warned that 787s are being delayed due to the seat issue as well, but hopefully by the summer it will speed up for both...they do not anticipate any delay to any already announced 787 routes.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 5):

It was said at a recent Town Hall meeting that the 777s have been pushed back in order to prioritize getting seats for the 787s as fast as possible. They have warned that 787s are being delayed due to the seat issue as well, but hopefully by the summer it will speed up for both...they do not anticipate any delay to any already announced 787 routes.

It could've been much faster if AA opted for the same off-the-shelf Cirrus product that they use on their 77W instead of creating a custom version of nearly the same seat
 
phillyramp270
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 6):

You know Parker... If it's cheaper than that's it

What exactly is the issue?
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jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 7):

You know Parker... If it's cheaper than that's it

What exactly is the issue?

Spending R&D money on custom seat ? That's not cheap at all.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 7):

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 6):

You know Parker... If it's cheaper than that's it

First of all, Parker had nothing to do with the new seat.

Secondly, a custom designed seat is far more expensive than an off-the-shelf seat. It possibly cost as much as double to develop and install this product as it would have to just take the 77W seat.
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AA777223
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:18 pm

The seat isn't really "almost the same" as the off the shelf seat. This is an alternating design, not a herringbone. Its more shaped like two triangles that bisect a square. The design is quite a bit tighter in what essentially equates to a 2-4-2 over what is about 1.5 rows.

If you took the sirrus and put them alternating, that's the closest you would get to the design, but that is still quite different. They have a lot more floor space on the 77W, so they can afford to have a more spacious J config (though they do also have an F cabin). On the 772, they needed a tighter config to seat a decent amount of J seats on their aircraft. Moving to the 77W seat on the 772, even if they removed the F cabin, would have led to a significant decrease in the number of available premium seats.
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jfk777
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
It could've been much faster if AA opted for the same off-the-shelf Cirrus product that they use on their 77W instead of creating a custom version of nearly the same seat

Why AA ever went for half the seats facing backwards is well, backward thinking. The same seat as Cathay has on its planes, AA has on the 77W and Air France will have is a winner so why mess around or "improve" with what works.
 
commavia
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:42 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
It could've been much faster if AA opted for the same off-the-shelf Cirrus product that they use on their 77W

Sure - could have been faster. But it also arguably would have been less financially attractive. AA clearly determined that the fully-allocated cost of developing the new seat would be paid for by years worth of these aircraft flying around with more sellable seats on them, made possible by this proprietary AA J design that took up less floor space. Considering these 45+ jets will be flying around for years with these seats - I suspect that calculus was correct then, and likely still is now even with the delays.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
instead of creating a custom version of nearly the same seat

As said, it's not the same seat - or even "nearly" close to it. It's a very different design in several ways.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
Why AA ever went for half the seats facing backwards is well, backward thinking. The same seat as Cathay has on its planes, AA has on the 77W and Air France will have is a winner so why mess around or "improve" with what works.

Again - in a word, money.

The 777 has less real estate than the 77W, so all else being equal, using the 77W J seat would have meant fewer sellable Y seats. By switching to this proprietary design, AA was able to - again, all else being equal - fit he same number of J seats into less floor space, thus freeing up said space for even more Y seats.

Even net of the development cost, it's pretty simple to see how that business case closed.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):

Many other airlines manage to fit 26-27 J seats in 1-2-1 between doors 1 and 2 of the 777. The new AA config only has 21 seats between those doors. Sure there's some difference in galley/lav allocation, but I dont see how the seat is offering any significant gain in density over the Cirrus.

Another data point to keep in mind is that Delta's 772s have basically the same total seats as the eventual ~289 seat low J version of the AA 77E while using off the shelf J seats and staying clear of 3x4x3.

Those "very different design" bullet points are only for enthusiasts to compare spec sheets. Most flyers view them as the Cirrus with half facing back (which are also the same ones facing the aisle).

[Edited 2015-03-23 18:46:15]
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:48 am

The longer it takes for these new J seats to get installed, the better. I am not at all looking forward to flying in a rear-facing seat.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 14):
The longer it takes for these new J seats to get installed, the better. I am not at all looking forward to flying in a rear-facing seat.

Then don't. Half the cabin faces forward.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 13):
Many other airlines manage to fit 26-27 J seats in 1-2-1 between doors 1 and 2 of the 777. The new AA config only has 21 seats between those doors. Sure there's some difference in galley/lav allocation, but I dont see how the seat is offering any significant gain in density over the Cirrus.

These new seats also offer more space for each individual than competing products, including more living space than the 77W J seats do. The way they are arranged allows AA to fit in more into the space compared to a comparably roomy J product such as AA's 77W seats. So it is no shocker that they can't fit as many compared to a tight squeezing J product like what DL has on the 772s.
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jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 15):

I think you just self contradicted. You said the new product is denser on floor space, but can't fit as many as DL's J ?

If DL's seat is more "tightly squeezing" and offer less "living space", then shouldn't that mean DL has to fit fewer seats (instead of equal) ?
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:02 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 15):
Then don't. Half the cabin faces forward.

Unless all the front-facing seats are already reserved. They do tend to be the favored seats and get scooped up before the rear-facing ones, going by the seat maps on aa.com.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
If DL's seat is more "tightly squeezing" and offer less "living space", then shouldn't that mean DL has to fit fewer seats (instead of equal) ?

How did he contradict himself?

He obviously conceded the point you made that there is a "difference in galley/lav allocation." AA's refurb 772's will also have a more formal entry, like that on the 77W.
 
SCL767
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting realsim (Reply 1):
They are only flying MIA-MAD/BCN for now.

Next week MIA-MAD goes 777 and MIA-BCN reverts back to the 767. Then the 772s will be deployed on the MIA-EZE route twice daily.
 
OB1504
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:23 am

Has anyone here ever actually flown in the rear-facing seats? Is it really that different from facing forward? Other than during takeoff and landing, the cabin feels stationary.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 19):
Next week MIA-MAD goes 777 and MIA-BCN reverts back to the 767. Then the 772s will be deployed on the MIA-EZE route twice daily.

MIA-GIG is next on the list to receive the 2-class 772. First class is no longer sold on the route in the event that a 2-class 772 is subbed in.
 
SCL767
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:50 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 20):
Has anyone here ever actually flown in the rear-facing seats? Is it really that different from facing forward? Other than during takeoff and landing, the cabin feels stationary.

I just flew AA68/AA69 and luckily my SWU cleared before all the seats were assigned in J. Of course I went for the forward facing seats on both segments. What I did realize is that you basically have no privacy as the person sitting adjacent can basically stare at you for the entire flight. Also, there is less personal storage space compared to the 77W. IMO, it was such a let down compared to J on the 77W!
 
commavia
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 20):
Has anyone here ever actually flown in the rear-facing seats? Is it really that different from facing forward?

To each their own - all personal preference. I've flown rear-facing J multiple times on BA (as that's what all the window seats on the 744 upper deck are) and I've never had a problem with it at all. And needless to say - these new AA 777 J seats look a lot nicer than the BA 744 J seats.
 
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AA777223
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:42 pm

I grew up flying AA J, mostly to Europe, and now I'm a UA flyer. Personally, I really don't mind the rearward facing thing. One could certainly complain about the width and aisle access on the pmUA J seat (which AA fixed here), however, I find the rearward facing part unobjectionable - in fact, I PREFER them (gasp!).

I think if people give these a chance, they will be surprised how much ado about nothing has been made. I think this design is brilliant. I will always choose to have a little tighter config, with more seats available, than to have some palatial seat that is very difficult to book - I realize this opinion puts me in the minority.

Overall, I give it    . I think this is actually a good move for the new AA.
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jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 23):

I think if people give these a chance, they will be surprised how much ado about nothing has been made. I think this design is brilliant. I will always choose to have a little tighter config, with more seats available, than to have some palatial seat that is very difficult to book - I realize this opinion puts me in the minority.

The issue is that the future 289 seat version of the AA 77E will only have approx 37 premium seats (down from 16F+37J before), so, I don't think upgrade or award availability would improve at all. Even paid J availability might be tight during peak days.

And judging by global trends, preference for backward facing is a rather small minority (out of major airlines I can only count BA AA UA, and only AA is a new design).
 
commavia
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 24):
And judging by global trends, preference for backward facing is a rather small minority (out of major airlines I can only count BA AA UA, and only AA is a new design).

And judging by global trends - it doesn't really seem to matter. Again - if AA saw material bookaway as a result of rear-facing J, it would be an issue. I highly, highly doubt AA will see any bookaway.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):

And judging by global trends - it doesn't really seem to matter. Again - if AA saw material bookaway as a result of rear-facing J, it would be an issue. I highly, highly doubt AA will see any bookaway.

UA definitely had bookaway as a result of that. Partially due to the very tight 2-4-2 config but the rear aspect can also be a contributing factor. When I booked an award for my parents on 744 UD J, they specifically made sure they didn't get stuck with the rear-facing seat.

BA didn't see any bookaway because most of their LHR base is quite hub captive (let's not pretend VS is meaningful competition). AA, on the other hand, has to contend with competitive markets at JFK ORD LAX.

Go read the AA forum on FT if you have time. Even AA's own elites have mixed feelings about it.
 
commavia
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
UA definitely had bookaway as a result of that.

I know it's not possible, but I'd be interested to see some data to prove that point.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
Go read the AA forum on FT if you have time. Even AA's own elites have mixed feelings about it.

Talk is one thing. Once again - let's see what happens with actual bookings and yields. If AA sees bookaway, and or depressed yields, as a result of rear-facing - than we'll talk. As said, I doubt that will happen - this new J seat is, partially rear-facing or not, a substantial improvement over the product it replaces.
 
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AA777223
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 24):
The issue is that the future 289 seat version of the AA 77E will only have approx 37 premium seats (down from 16F+37J before), so, I don't think upgrade or award availability would improve at all. Even paid J availability might be tight during peak days.

Well, just think how bad it would be if they had used the herringbone design! That's the whole point I am trying to make. Customers demand lie flat J seats, with all aisle access, and then everyone complains when paid, award or upgrade availability is limited - especially important to American consumers who seem to use the mileage/copay and award booking premium space more than other parts of the world.

I think the US airlines, are simply trying to strike the balance between demand, amenities and available real estate. As I said, I think it's a brilliant design, much better execution than UA's true 2-4-2 design.

For the record, despite all of the crap people give it, I really don't mind BA's J seat either. I think I just have different preferences than the majority of the premium flying public.
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jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 27):

I know it's not possible, but I'd be interested to see some data to prove that point.

If we have access to THAT level of data we can already share yield performance on a route by route basis on this forum =)

Quoting commavia (Reply 27):

Talk is one thing. Once again - let's see what happens with actual bookings and yields. If AA sees bookaway, and or depressed yields, as a result of rear-facing - than we'll talk. As said, I doubt that will happen - this new J seat is, partially rear-facing or not, a substantial improvement over the product it replaces.

Anything is better than the old NGBC slanted thing. Heck, I think one would pick 2-4-2 rear-facing PMUA BF seat over a hypothetical 1-2-1 NGBC. The only real question is was the investment worth it compared to just grabbing the Cirrus (and offering product consistency with both AA 77W and PMUS 330s). It's a lot of millions spent if they can't show any meaningful yield premium.

This reminds me a lot of all the Android OEMs that tried so hard to offer unique product differentiation on the software level (e.g. MotoBlur, HTC Sense, etc), but few were better received than plain-old stock Android.
 
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AA777223
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 27):
Talk is one thing. Once again - let's see what happens with actual bookings and yields. If AA sees bookaway, and or depressed yields, as a result of rear-facing - than we'll talk. As said, I doubt that will happen - this new J seat is, partially rear-facing or not, a substantial improvement over the product it replaces.

Hear, hear! It's a marked improvement, and given the fact that now, 2 of the 3 US carriers now have front/rear facing Js, the book away will be less, because the options are the same way.

As I said. The public demands aisle access and lie flats. The planes are only so big. Airlines are having to be creative. Other than take off and landing, you would never know whether you face forward or back. Generally people who oppose it the most, are those who haven't ever tried it. Compromises must be made.
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commavia
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 29):
The only real question is was the investment worth it compared to just grabbing the Cirrus (and offering product consistency with both AA 77W and PMUS 330s).

And - once again - AA's own financial people clearly believe the investment was worth it. And - once again - given that these planes will be flying around for years with these seats, I suspect they're correct.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 29):
It's a lot of millions spent if they can't show any meaningful yield premium.

No - theoretically, it need not show a "meaningful yield premium" in order to justify the cost. If the discounted incremental cash flow generated by improving the J hard product and freeing up more real estate for more sellable Y seats covers the upfront cash cost, it should be worthwhile. I suspect that in this case, again given the longevity of these jets, that case easily closed, and continues to close.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 31):

And - once again - AA's own financial people clearly believe the investment was worth it. And - once again - given that these planes will be flying around for years with these seats, I suspect they're correct.
Quoting commavia (Reply 31):

No - theoretically, it need not show a "meaningful yield premium" in order to justify the cost. If the discounted incremental cash flow generated by improving the J hard product and freeing up more real estate for more sellable Y seats covers the upfront cash cost, it should be worthwhile. I suspect that in this case, again given the longevity of these jets, that case easily closed, and continues to close.

Got to love this logic ... Any questioning against the financial whiz at corporate is automatically "case closed". AA must be the only airline that hires smart people.  
 
commavia
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 32):
Got to love this logic ... Any questioning against the financial whiz at corporate is automatically "case closed". AA must be the only airline that hires smart people.

  

No, nobody said that it was "case closed," meaning that there was no debate to be had. What I was referring to was the standard financial term of making a business case "close," meaning showing that the NPV was positive, and better than the alternative. And yes, I continue to believe - based on the previously-discussed logic - that this case does "close."

And no, nobody ever said that AA is the "only airline that hires smart people." Don't worry - nobody is tacking precious United.

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:54:39]
 
N1120A
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
Why AA ever went for half the seats facing backwards is well, backward thinking.

I personally prefer rear-facing seats. The sleep quality is markedly better.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):

UA definitely had bookaway as a result of that.

I'm sure you have evidence of that...

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
Partially due to the very tight 2-4-2 config but the rear aspect can also be a contributing factor.

I can see 2-4-2 being a detracting point, but rear-facing isn't.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
When I booked an award for my parents on 744 UD J, they specifically made sure they didn't get stuck with the rear-facing seat.

C, and an anecdotal personal reference? I personally actively seek out rear-facing C seats.

Quoting commavia (Reply 27):
I know it's not possible, but I'd be interested to see some data to prove that point.

I doubt it exists.

Quoting commavia (Reply 33):

And no, nobody ever said that AA is the "only airline that hires smart people." Don't worry - nobody is tacking precious United.

AA is the one that attracts smart people as passengers.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 33):

And no, nobody ever said that AA is the "only airline that hires smart people."

You actually implied it. Because countless global carriers have done the exact same math and only 3 airlines have arrived at that conclusion, 2 from a much earlier era that might have been necessitated by product offerings of the day.

So your statement has directly implied that AA corporate can calculate NPV positive on an investment that none of DL LH LX AF KL NH JL KE OZ CX SQ QF NZ EK EY QR can.

Quoting commavia (Reply 31):
No - theoretically, it need not show a "meaningful yield premium" in order to justify the cost. If the discounted incremental cash flow generated by improving the J hard product and freeing up more real estate for more sellable Y seats covers the upfront cash cost, it should be worthwhile.

The 289 seats on AA versus the 291 on DL already proved your statement false that AA isn't squeezing extra sellable Y seats in this config.

Quoting commavia (Reply 31):

And - once again - AA's own financial people clearly believe the investment was worth it. And - once again - given that these planes will be flying around for years with these seats, I suspect they're correct.

And - once - again - your - sentences - are - so - hard - to - read.
 
VSlover
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:17 pm

personally i love the rear facing seats for sleeping. because of the slight inclined angle a plane is at--it makes it more comfortable when sleeping on a flat bed. this is true for BA and the new 772 seat which i did from BCN recently.

the sensation on take off and landing is kind of cool too.

and personally--i cannot sit facing backwards on trains because i can sometimes get motion sickness--but in the air? you do not feel a bit of difference when seated.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
I personally prefer rear-facing seats. The sleep quality is markedly better.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
C, and an anecdotal personal reference? I personally actively seek out rear-facing C seats.

Excellent, good for you .... now you have 3 airlines on the whole planet to choose from instead of just 2.
 
N1120A
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RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 37):
Excellent, good for you .... now you have 3 airlines on the whole planet to choose from instead of just 2.

Yippie. And 2 of them are airlines I actually enjoy flying.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 35):
You actually implied it.

No I didn't in any way. Every airline has different hurdle rates, driven by different costs of capital, different business models base upon different route systems and hub structures, different yield-generating potential based upon connectivity, feed, partnerships, etc. All of these feed into decision-making about J configurations as well as everything else. So when I stated that AA's own people drew their own conclusions about rear-facing J, that doesn't mean that other airlines that drew different conclusions don't have "smart people." It just means that the "smart people" at those airlines had different conditions, and numbers, to consider.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 35):
The 289 seats on AA versus the 291 on DL already proved your statement false that AA isn't squeezing extra sellable Y seats in this config.

AA's people came to the conclusion they did, known what they know about Delta's configuration and every other airline's 777 configuration. Perhaps AA's people know something you don't?
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Yippie. And 2 of them are airlines I actually enjoy flying.

Yup, that's why they've been winning Top 10 best business class awards all the time. Oh wait ...
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1267
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

RE: AA 772 Refurbishment

Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
Go read the AA forum on FT if you have time. Even AA's own elites have mixed feelings about it.

Not as "mixed" as you think they are.

Plus, it is Flyertalk. The ones who complain the most on FT are typically not AA's best customers.

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