Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:07 pm

2nd part of the tragic accident.

Please, as respect to the affected, stay on topic, be respectful and stick to the official news.

It is too early to say what happened.

Let's pray for the family and friends of these who died...

wilco737

tcfc424 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:12 pm

The BBC seems to have a stock photo of AIPX on its home page. For once, someone has get all of the primary facts straight. Mary Schiavo on CNN kills me, but at least she was correct in stating that aircraft incidents rarely occur during the cruise phase of flight, they primarily happen during T/O and landing. Unfortunately, lately that trend seems to be changing...AF447, MH370, MH17 (granted there were other factors).

TheSonntag · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:16 pm

LH has now also put it on the main site.

KarelXWB · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:21 pm

From a witness:

Quote:
The owner of a French Alpine camping ground says he heard a series of loud noises in the air before a Germanwings passenger plane carrying 150 people crashed to the ground.

Pierre Polizzi told The Associated Press the noise began at 11:30 a.m.

"There are often fighter jets flying over, so I thought it sounded just like that. I looked outside but I couldn't see any fighter planes."

"The noise I heard was long - like 8 seconds - as if the plane was going more slowly than a military plane speed. There was another long noise about 30 seconds later."

Source
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/445c1...latest-a320-has-good-safety-record

Revelation · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:22 pm

My thoughts and prayers go out to the friends, families, and other loved ones of the passengers and crew.

holzmann · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:24 pm

What does mean for Lufthansa's long-term LCC expansion plans based on the GermanWings brand? Or is it a different brand?

LovesCoffee · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting HPRamper reply 184 in thread 1:
"It's absolutely appropriate to talk about media when it is the source most turn to for information about these disasters. Bad reporting often can spread needless fear and hysteria. It is also far from opinion - Fox is widely known to be one of the most biased and sensationalist major news networks, heavily right-leaning. MSNBC is considered to be left-leaning biased while CNN and BBC are quite centrist and generally more accurate in comparison. Sadly when major networks are owned by for-profit corporations one must always wonder if there is an agenda being pushed. "

I tend to agree, but then the media do the same thing with every air crash. But let's not forget that CNN has "Crazy Mary".

At least the airlines get safer due to the accident investigation.

SCQ83 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 10):
What does mean for Lufthansa's long-term LCC expansion plans based on the GermanWings brand? Or is it a different brand?

Germanwings was to dissappear in favor of Eurowings.

bavair · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 10):

The Germaneings brand is set to be replaced by Eurowings, but no doubt this will have an effect on the brand. Too early to tell. Prayers go out to those on board.

LTC8K6 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 10):
What does mean for Lufthansa's long-term LCC expansion plans based on the GermanWings brand? Or is it a different brand?

We don't even know what happened yet, so it doesn't mean anything, and won't for a long time, if ever.

rosskin92 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:27 pm

my condolences goes out to everyone affected by this. We should respectfully leave speculation to the side as we wait for the facts to come out.

GianiDC · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 6):
What does mean for Lufthansa's long-term LCC expansion plans based on the GermanWings brand? Or is it a different brand?

Well. they just created eurowings in which germanwings will merge into. as far as i know the germanwings brand will soon be gone.

PanHAM · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:30 pm

As to German officials, I just heard on Radio the Northrhine-Westphalian prime Minister. The foreign moinister has been quoted and has made statemeents which are aired. Mrs. Merkel is due to make a Statement around 3 pm.

What the German officials cannot do is place their statemeents in foreign channels. In fact, all, from Lh CEO to dignitaries are focusing on this tragic Event.

richierich · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting rosskin92 (Reply 12):
my condolences goes out to everyone affected by this. We should respectfully leave speculation to the side as we wait for the facts to come out.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families at this time. Not good news.

I disagree about the speculation though. Many of us come on this site for answers, sometimes where there are none, and although I hope people leave the wild speculation to the side, discussing probable causes can be healthy and informative if done respectfully.

We all know that a real investigation into the cause will take months, if not years - most of us do not want to wait that long.

Vio · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:33 pm

Bizzare:

According to Ziare.com (Romanian site) is saying that "According to Europe1 the aircraft may be "intact"

http://www.ziare.com/international/a...-prabusit-in-sudul-frantei-1354652

I tried to search Europe1 site and I don't see anything...

http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/i...ings-pres-de-barcelonnette-2408243

MadameConcorde · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:33 pm

La Provence

Eye witness report:
Shortly before the crash of the A320 on the Vernet area this morning, the owner of a sawmill in Prads (Haute-Bléone) saw the aircraft company in trouble. "I have not seen much, perhaps for 2, 3 seconds. The plane was flying very low, I do not know maybe 1500, 2,000 meters. It was impressive, it seemed like it was on its way down... I said, 'It will not pass the mountains' I did not hear any particular noise, "explains Sébastien Giroud..

http://www.laprovence.com/article/ac...s-les-alpes-de-haute-provence.html

Aesma · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:33 pm

It seems to me the pilots were either incapacitated or unaware of what was going on. Either one is not good to think about.

Gonzalo · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Very very sad news. My deepest condolences to all affected.
I'm a permanent user of A320's since is the main type of LAN to fly inside Chile, it's a very very safe aircraft and is really hard to imagine what could cause this tragedy....is the emergency descent the only clue we have so far? Or the radio transmissions between pilots/ATC have any useful information?

Rgds.,

G

Burkhard · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 6):
What does mean for Lufthansa's long-term LCC expansion plans based on the GermanWings brand? Or is it a different brand?

This really far to early. Yes this is Germanwings, if the brand is damaged now or not depends on a) how they handle the disaster and b) the reason of this crash.

What makes me confident is that the LH CEO went public and did not make it "their" problem,

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
It seems to me the pilots were either incapacitated or unaware of what was going on. Either one is not good to think about.

They sent an emergency signal. So they were aware that something did go wrong.

So, let's wait and see what the officials will find out and not jump onto any conclusions please.

Thanks.

wilco737

holzmann · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 pm

The confusing part for me is that they maintained course but lost altitude. You'd think if they knew something was wrong changes to both would have occurred at the same time, including a possible diversion to MRS. What if they were all incapacitated due to decompression and asphyxiation? They would maintain both heading and altitude until loss of fuel at a much later time. The gradual decent would also seem to rule out something sudden like an explosion.

Hydraulics failure? Stuck elevator?

[Edited 2015-03-24 06:35:38]

Vio · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

It seems to me the pilots were either incapacitated or unaware of what was going on. Either one is not good to think about.

From what I understand, there was a "mayday" call. How would they do that if they were incapacitated?

rosskin92 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 13):

this was more in relation to the MX post above me (shame you cannot quote on this. thanks windows!) but yes its good if done in a healthy way

frigatebird · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 1):
aircraft incidents rarely occur during the cruise phase of flight, they primarily happen during T/O and landing. Unfortunately, lately that trend seems to be changing...AF447, MH370, MH17 (granted there were other factors).

And AirAsia as well. I realize it was way too early speculate, and I know the cause of the AirAsia crash is still unknown, but could it be possible there were common factors that resulted in this Germanwings crash and the AirAsia one?

BobMUC · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Mrs. Merkel is due to make a Statement around 3 pm

There was just a press conference from Mrs. Merkel at 2:30 pm.

R.I.P. for all on board!

dtw2hyd · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:39 pm

I hope there are some survivors. Even JAL 123 had survivors. Sad day for LH.

Chancellor Merkel just concluded a brief statement.

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 23):
And AirAsia as well. I realize it was way too early speculate, and I know the cause of the AirAsia crash is still unknown, but could it be possible there were common factors that resulted in this Germanwings crash and the AirAsia one?

As you said yourself, way too early to say anything about that. The accident happened couple hours ago, who could there be hints if it was the same as the AirAsia?
Impossible.
We have to wait until the officials did their work and then we can say what happened.

It is too early.

wilco737

wxmeddler · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Condolences go out to the families and the airline involved, hopefully we can find some closure soon..

People were saying earlier that this bird was manufactured in 1990, obviously with mostly inter-european flights that means a lot of cycles on the airframe. Is there anybody who knows appx how many cycles this aircraft has done or even what the threshold is for A320's before needing overhauls?

Certainly an odd case given the ADS-B transmissions, but hopefully they'll be able to get to the site soon and recover the recorders.

LTC8K6 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 21):
From what I understand, there was a "mayday" call. How would they do that if they were incapacitated?

Perhaps they recovered consciousness in the last part of the flight?

DALCE · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 23):
but could it be possible there were common factors that resulted in this Germanwings crash and the AirAsia one?

yes, but highly unlikely. So many factors could conclude in a fatal crash. It's just as likely that the reasons turn out to be the same as any other A320 crash.

GianiDC · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 23):
but could it be possible there were common factors that resulted in this Germanwings crash and the AirAsia one?

i personally don´t think so. Yes both descended from cruising altitude, but there are numerous differences. The AirAsia flight had a much higher descend rate and was slower. as well as flying in bad weather conditions overall.

lugie · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 21):
From what I understand, there was a "mayday" call. How would they do that if they were incapacitated?

Yes but the weird thing about the mayday call is that it was sent out around 15 minutes before the plane crashed, during the initial stages of its descent and not in the end when it was, according to the eyewitness, flying towards mountains at "1500 to 2000" meters

Pihero · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:43 pm

From the official gendarmerie : Wreckage at 2700 m - 8100 ft - altitude. ( hoiw does that fact gel with the flight Radar reported 6800 ft altitude ? no one knows.)
No road to the crash site,; just hiking trails.
The rescue / salvage operations are going to be difficult : the zone is difficult, even for helicopters... and then the weather will deteriorate : snow and high winds starting tonight and the rescue teams will have to bivouac on site.

I personally know the area quite well as Barcelonnette is one of my favourite gliding spots : if it's good for mountain waves, it's really bad for terrain...

Latest news : The area has now been secured by the gendarmerie. The first rescue vehicles are expected shortly.

casinterest · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:44 pm

My deepest condolences to all involved. such a tragedy.
More information from the black boxes and ATC communications will shed light on this incident in the coming days, but for now let's keep our thoughts with all the friends and family as we take the early reports and speculation with a grain of salt.

realsim · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 19):
They sent an emergency signal. So they were aware that something did go wrong.

France24 is saying that, according to the French Civil Aviation Authority, there was no mayday call:

"@FRANCE24 reporter James André at French Civil Aviation Authority HQ: "#Germanwings plane did NOT report distress signal", no mayday."

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 34):
France24 is saying that, according to the French Civil Aviation Authority, there was no mayday call:

"@FRANCE24 reporter James André at French Civil Aviation Authority HQ: "#Germanwings plane did NOT report distress signal", no mayday."

German News reporting that there has been an emergency signal while at roughly 7000 feet.

So I guess another thing which we cannot confirm. So we have to wait what the FDR and CVR show.

wilco737

MadameConcorde · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 26):

We have to wait until the officials did their work and then we can say what happened.

It is too early.

wilco737

Exactly.

La Provence:
Un avion de l'armée de l'air française, un C-135, survole la zone du crash.
A C-135 of French Air Force is flying over the crash area.

http://www.laprovence.com/article/ac...s-les-alpes-de-haute-provence.html

Gonzalo · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 35):
So I guess another thing which we cannot confirm. So we have to wait what the FDR and CVR show.

Can I ask in what kind of terrain is located the wreckage? I'm guessing is not the best ( flat-dry-clean terrain ), not a single image of the crash site so far... I ask for the chance of a quick retrieval of the black boxes...

Rgds.

G.

Womack17 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:54 pm

RIP to all involved.

I am troubled by all these air accidents. We all got spoiled with so many relatively quiet years but 2013-15 has been brutal

[Edited 2015-03-24 06:55:58]

666wizard · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:55 pm

Just been stated on BBC that it was ATC that declared an emergency, after no contact with the crew. I'm sorry that I didn't catch where the BBC got this info, from but it was stated by one of the presenters on a special bulletin on the BBC News website in the last few minutes.

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:01:08]

realsim · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:55 pm

On board the aircraft there was a group of 16 German school students going back home who had been in Barcelona for a one week exchange with Spanish students. What a tragedy...

longhauler · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:55 pm

This sounds eerily like the alert our A320 crews recently received with regard to contaminated AOA probes. A red OEB is due to be released shortly.

While airspeed is fine, the aircraft "thinks" AOA is too high, and a forced nose down attitude occurs while in Normal Law.

The solution is to remove two ADRS, leaving one, placing the aircraft in Alternate Law and control can be regained. The crew can then stop the nose down command. (Which occurs with the autopilot on or off).

CBRboy · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):
Wreckage at 2700 m - 8100 ft - altitude. ( hoiw does that fact gel with the flight Radar reported 6800 ft altitude ?

Perhaps the FlightRadar24 ADS-B coverage was lost due to terrain between the aircraft and the ADS-B receiver, and the pilots subsequently tried to climb to avoid terrain. Perhaps ADS-B transmission from the plane was wrong? There could be a few explanations.

georgiabill · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 pm

Condolences to the families,friends and coworkers of the passengers and crew of this flight. May the victims rest in peace.
Being not familiar with that area, are there airports in the vicinity that are capable to handle an A320 in an emergency situation?

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 pm

There is no more professional airline in the world than LH and, I am sure, that is instilled in its affiliates. My heart goes out to the crew, passengers and their loved ones during this terrible time.

Also special condolences and affection to my German flight crew colleagues. Unless you have worked for an airline you don't understand the pain that an accident causes to your coworkers. Take strength in the fact that all over the world crew members are praying and thinking of everyone aboard and those left behind.

Summa767 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 35):
German News reporting that there has been an emergency signal while at roughly 7000 feet.

So I guess another thing which we cannot confirm. So we have to wait what the FDR and CVR show.

BBC is clarifying that the distress signal reported was from ATC, not from the aircraft.
The time reported for this given as 0947 UTC. This would be 6 minutes after the last point reported by Flightradar.

aw70 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:58 pm

Repeat of an unanswered technical question from the last thread:

Regarding that A321 incident from last autumn: the one which involved an uncommanded descent. Did that a/c also suffer a freeze of the directional controls? Or did the a/c just go into a descent, with other controls unaffected?

The reason I am asking is of course that baffling totally straight flight into terrain that we are seeing here.

Loran · Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 27):
People were saying earlier that this bird was manufactured in 1990, obviously with mostly inter-european flights that means a lot of cycles on the airframe. Is there anybody who knows appx how many cycles this aircraft has done

As of 30. Nov 2014, it had 57'515 FHs and 46'203 Cycles.

IIRC an A-Check is every 750 FHs or Cycles, a C-Check is every 6'000 FHs and/or 4'500 Cycles. Dont have the figures for a D-Check handy at the moment.

Regards,
Loran

Gonzalo · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting Womack17 (Reply 38):
I am troubled by all these air accidents. We all got spoiled with so many relatively quiet years but 2014-15 has been brutal

The worst thing about this accidents ( not counting the human side of the tragedy of course ), is that people in general see this kind of crashes and automatically think "flying is not safe", every time I say to someone "the most dangerous part of your trip is your car trip to the airport", I have a very squeptical reaction when we have this kind of tragedies all over the news....

Rgds.

G.

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 45):
BBC is clarifying that the distress signal reported was from ATC, not from the aircraft.
The time reported for this given as 0947 UTC. This would be 6 minutes after the last point reported by Flightradar

And German N24 reports the emergency signal was coming from the Pilots.

What I am trying to say, there are not many information and many different sources, but nothing official which can be confirmed.

ATC has for sure made an emergency signal once the airplane disappeared from the radar.

So, please let's wait and see what the officials say and do.

wilco737

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