Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

TheSonntag · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 44):
There is no more professional airline in the world than LH and, I am sure, that is instilled in its affiliates.

However, the crisis management on the official websites of 4U, DUS airport and even the LH site are not that great so far. It took quite some time to announce a number where people could call, and the english information lagged behind the german information.

I guess it is a shock for LH, as well.

flymia · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 1):
Mary Schiavo on CNN kills me,

Agreed. I enjoyed the part where she said she can't talk about squawk codes as they are security sensitive. 7500 is the known hijack code. Sorry for divulging public information Ms. Schiavo. I don't understand why CNN continues to have her on again and again, she was an Inspector General not an investigator, not an airline pilot. Guys like Les Abend those are the guys that should be on the air.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 35):
German News reporting that there has been an emergency signal while at roughly 7000 feet.

Could that just be the ELT?

Aquila3 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 37):
Can I ask in what kind of terrain is located the wreckage?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):
Barcelonnette is one of my favourite gliding spots

http://www.ansa.it/sito/videogallery...0-14fb-4052-bdbd-c99daf69af18.html

R.I.P.
to all the victims.

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:02:46]

racko · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:02 pm

Apparently no emergency call from the flight deck, ATC activated emergency procedures because of the data they were seeing and the loss of contact.

KarelXWB · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 27):
Is there anybody who knows appx how many cycles this aircraft has done or even what the threshold is for A320's before needing overhauls?

58,300 flight hours / 46,700 cycles.

http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/580368708272549888

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:10:40]

EWR762 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Germanwings live press conference starting now on CNN. My deepest condolences to all involved.

EWR762

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 51):
Could that just be the ELT?

No, doubt that. The ELT doesn't transmit on its own. Only after a crash.

So, we have to wait and see.

Press conference Germanwings at the moment.

wilco737

galleypower · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 44):
Also special condolences and affection to my German flight crew colleagues. Unless you have worked for an airline you don't understand the pain that an accident causes to your coworkers. Take strength in the fact that all over the world crew members are praying and thinking of everyone aboard and those left behind.

Thx!!! Couldnt have said it better! Famly is family, and thx to AB for their condolences "United Wings"

MadameConcorde · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:04 pm

La Provence:
Tr.
"There is no emergency rescue, they have all died" said a policeman at Vernet, a few miles from the place where the plane crashed at 1500 meters above sea level in the mountains of the Estrop in the White valley. A chapel was installed in Seyne-les-Alpes, a neighboring town, we were told by the spokeswoman from Prefecture of Defense of the South Zone.

http://www.laprovence.com/article/ac...s-les-alpes-de-haute-provence.html

http://www.france24.com/fr/20150324-...dusseldorf-barcelone-crash-aerien/

Miami · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm

Head of German Wings is giving a statement live: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFwedk4dBCc

yv773p · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):

This sounds eerily like the alert our A320 crews recently received with regard to contaminated AOA probes. A red OEB is due to be released shortly.

While airspeed is fine, the aircraft "thinks" AOA is too high, and a forced nose down attitude occurs while in Normal Law.

The solution is to remove two ADRS, leaving one, placing the aircraft in Alternate Law and control can be regained. The crew can then stop the nose down command. (Which occurs with the autopilot on or off).

If you don't mind, can you elaborate on this? The Airbus computer pitches down because of something in the AOA probe and there is nothing the pilot can really do?

racko · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:08 pm

Germanwings press conference:

Reached cruise at FL380 at 10:45
left that altitude at 10:46
Descent for 8 minutes, ATC lost signal at 10:53 at 6000 ft
Aircraft is D-AIPX, delivered 1991 to Lufthansa, with 4U since January 2014
Last A-Check was yesterday in Düsseldorf by Lufthansa Technik
Last C-Check was in the Summer of 2013
Captain was with LH and 4U for 10 years, 6000 flight hours on the A320
LH Technik, LH, 4U and Airbus have dispatched teams to the crash site
Condolences to all victims and their relatives

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:09:28]

Miami · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:09 pm

An Airbus A320 crashed in the area of Digne up the massive "Trois évêchés".
144 passengers, 2 pilots and 4 crew members were on board from Barcelona to Dusseldorf.

The flight 4U9525 disappeared at 09:39 UTC from radar.

Registration D-AIPX.
The aircraft was delivered on 1991-02-05 to Lufthansa.

Pihero · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 37):
Can I ask in what kind of terrain is located the wreckage?

This soaring vid will give you an idea : it's from Barcelonnette, just a few kilometers east of the crash site.
Southern Alps Gliding

Everything peaks above 3000 meters.

Istanbuler83 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:10 pm

Now, ongoing press conference of Germanwings:

Facts:

-last ATC contact with the airplane 10:53 CET at an altitude of 6.000 feet
-last C-check of the airplane in the summer of 2013 in DUS by Lufthansa Technic
-Captain 10 years/6.000 hours of experience in Lufthansa Group.

Miami · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:10 pm

Altitude and speed change:

CF-CPI · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 61):

Reached cruise at FL380 at 10:45
left that altitude at 10:46

One minute at cruise, then apparent rapid descent. Is there significance here, or just coincidence?

MadameConcorde · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 59):
Head of German Wings is giving a statement live: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFwedk4dBCc

Thank you for the link.

A very very sad day.

galleypower · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 50):
However, the crisis management on the official websites of 4U, DUS airport and even the LH site are not that great so far. It took quite some time to announce a number where people could call, and the english information lagged behind the german information.

LH has probably the best crisis management one can find in the industry. What sets the pros apart from the rest is that you set up shop first and then communicate. They were set up rather quickly I must say!

Aesma · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:13 pm

There was no emergency call. I wasn't aware of this when I speculated about the pilots being incapacitated/unaware, however I found the timeline wasn't clear, so I thought that they could have declared an emergency moments before the crash, which wouldn't rule out them being incapacitated/unaware before then.

flymia · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
(Which occurs with the autopilot on or off).

I know the A320 and all Airbus aircraft are extremely safe, but this is the biggest philisophy I have never liked about Airbus. I know the pilot can always override control at some point but how easy is it for the pilots to just take control over the computers if they want to?

Any Airbus pilots on here want to chime in on how simple of a procedure it is to give the pilots full control of the airplane?

Quoting racko (Reply 53):

Apparently no emergency call from the flight deck, ATC activated emergency procedures because of the data they were seeing and the loss of contact.

This certainly adds a twist to what may have happened. All very early speculation but no ATC contact whatsoever with a gradual then more steep decent but it seems like fairly constant speed and course could lean towards some type of incapacitate/pressurization issue. Again pure speculation. Hopefully the data recorders won't be too difficult to find.

racko · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:14 pm

More 4U press conference, now press questions:

- They don't know whether there was a distress signal
- No idea why they entered the descent
- no problems on the earlier flight DUS-BCN
- 67 Germans on board, details not until all relatives are informed
- AOA sensor issue: The flight computers have been exchanged since then with an updated version

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:15:29]

Miami · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:14 pm

It has been released that 4U9525 had two babies on board. Sad, sad news.

RIP to all.

travelavnut · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 60):
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on this? The Airbus computer pitches down because of something in the AOA probe and there is nothing the pilot can really do?

From the reply you quoted yourself:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
The solution is to remove two ADRS, leaving one, placing the aircraft in Alternate Law and control can be regained. The crew can then stop the nose down command. (Which occurs with the autopilot on or off).

A solution usually implies something can be done....

Summa767 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 60):
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on this? The Airbus computer pitches down because of something in the AOA probe and there is nothing the pilot can really do?

I believe that this is the relevant EAD on the CAA website: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20141209EASAAD20140266E.pdf

"When Alpha Prot is activated due to blocked AOA probes, the flight control laws order a continuous nose down pitch rate that, in a worst case scenario, cannot be stopped with backward sidestick inputs, even in the full backward position. If the Mach number increases during a nose down order, the AOA value of the Alpha Prot will continue to decrease. As a result, the flight control laws will continue to order a nose down pitch rate, even if the speed is above minimum selectable speed, known as VLS.

This condition, if not corrected, could result in loss of control of the aircraft"

The EAD calls for an appendix to be added on how to deal with such a situation, namel leaving only one ADR and turning the other 2 off.

yv773p · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 73):
A solution usually implies something can be done....

What is an ADRS? Are all Airbus pilots trained to do this?

fn1001 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 14):
According to Ziare.com (Romanian site)

My prayers go to the victims and the families.

Ziare.com is not worth to be mentioned as a news source. They copy news, mostly from dubious sources, distort them to make them spectacular, even if the truth is lost, just to attract clicks.

Vio · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:18 pm

A little silly question:

Will Germanwings ground its fleet should they find something wrong with the aircraft? I know it's premature to think that, but I wonder what the protocol is.

wilco737 · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 77):
Will Germanwings ground its fleet should they find something wrong with the aircraft? I know it's premature to think that, but I wonder what the protocol is.

If there is something serious which can effect every Airbus, they will for sure react.

But as you said, way too early to make such speculations.

wilco737

GianiDC · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 77):
Will Germanwings ground its fleet should they find something wrong with the aircraft? I know it's premature to think that, but I wonder what the protocol is.

I guess it will take some time till the exact reason for this crash will be determined. So as there are no hints as to which the aircraft type resulted the accident, there is no cause for a grounding right now.

pvjin · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:22 pm

If there indeed was no emergency signal whatever happened must have incapacitated the pilots very quickly. I guess an intentional act could explain lack of emergency call during such a long descent too, thinking of LAM crash.

richierich · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting Womack17 (Reply 38):
RIP to all involved.

I am troubled by all these air accidents. We all got spoiled with so many relatively quiet years but 2013-15 has been brutal

All air crashes are disturbing, something we all agree on (I hope.) I don't mean to be contradictory, but has 2013-15 really been any worse than any other three year window in the past decade or two? Every calendar year shows several accidents with a major loss of life (>100 fatalities)...it is sad that it continues into 2015, and my heart breaks for those affected by today's tragedy, but your statement is full of hyperbole and emotion. 2014 had two 'bizarre' catastrophes - both involving MH and apparently caused by very different events - as well as a few other major crashes, but compared to the 1970s or 1980s, aviation safety is as good as it has ever been.

The fact that Germanwings/LH is a top-notch, safe airline and corporation is sort of meaningless and hollow today, and it goes to show that even the best of us are not immune to the failings of man or machine.

longhauler · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 60):
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on this? The Airbus computer pitches down because of something in the AOA probe and there is nothing the pilot can really do?

It was just conjecture on my part. But ... if two of the three AOA probes are contaminated, the aircraft "thinks" it is stalling. It is very graphic on the airspeed tape, and one knows exactly what is happening ... airspeed of 250 knots but in the lower red band. (I am using generic terms here for the non-pilot or non-Airbus types).

To say there is "nothing the pilot can do" is a bit harsh. In Normal Law, the aircraft will protect itself. The solution is to revert to Alternate Law, then "protections" are disabled. In Normal Law, if in the lower red band, the aircraft will command a nose down attitude to unstall the aircraft.

The alert given to our A320 pilots is to recognize what it is doing, and to solve the problem.

I say this is only conjecture, as I am sure these pilot were aware of this problem. Not only did ours get a printed alert and a company email, but the Airbus Chief Pilot called every Captain to make sure they read the alert! The same process happened after the supposed high altitude stall of AF447.

racko · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:24 pm

Even more press conference:

- 24 years is not too old for an aircraft
- 4U continues flying
- 24 years is really not too old
- Intra-Schengen flight, so no precise numbers on nationalities
- no Chinese passengers as far as they know
- We are investigating properly what went wrong, the moment we know what went wrong we will take measures
- Obnoxious journalist wants him to immediately ground all A320s
- "LH believes in the safety of Airbus and Boeing products"
- no speculation about whether the initial descent was intentional
- every international journo now asking about their nationalities
- 4U has about 60 A320s, LH hundreds
- asked whether they're using flightradar24 for the investigation...no.
- Accident site very difficult to reach, need helicopters
- No distress call from the flight deck

TheSonntag · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:24 pm

10.01 takeoff

10.45 38k feet, begin of descent.

No communication between flight crew and ATC at beginning of descent. And since then.

galleypower · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 77):

Not so silly. It depends on the preliminary findings. Is it a GW problem, a Airbus problem or a problem with one of the instruments. If its GW its also LH, if its an Airbus problem, they could ground all A320s until its solved. Happend before with the DC10. Or just all planes with a certain instrument.

But so far, it could be anything.

hoya · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 80):

If there indeed was no emergency signal whatever happened must have incapacitated the pilots very quickly. I guess an intentional act could explain lack of emergency call during such a long descent too, thinking of LAM crash.

Sudden loss of cabin pressure? At 38,000 feet, how much time do the pilots have to react? 10-12 seconds?

garpd · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm

I know a Germanwings pilot. He too, flew for LH for many years, then moved to Germanwings.
I'm dreading the release of the souls on board list

KarelXWB · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 83):
Even more press conference:

In addition, 4U9525 descended from FL380 without requesting altitude change from ATC.

DexSwart · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:26 pm

Malaysia Airline's Twitter posted this an hour ago.

Quote:
Our thoughts and prayers go to the family and friends of those onboard Flight 4U9525. We are with you, @Germanwings. #staystrong

I don't think I've seen something so heart wrenching in a very long time.

My thoughts and prayers to all involved.

Every life is one life too many.

starrymarkb · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 70):
I know the pilot can always override control at some point but how easy is it for the pilots to just take control over the computers if they want to?

My understanding is that there are 7 Push button switches on the overhead - one for each of the flight control computers.

longhauler · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 44):
Also special condolences and affection to my German flight crew colleagues.

Hear hear.

Everyone has their own area of interest. If you were American (for example) and saw 20 Americans on board, you would remorse their loss.

The loss of any life is tragic. My own area interest when I see an air accident ... is that two pilots and four flight attendants went to work that day and did not return. RIP.

Mir · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 37):
I ask for the chance of a quick retrieval of the black boxes...

They'll find them quickly. It's only crashes on water where it can take time to find them.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 56):
No, doubt that. The ELT doesn't transmit on its own. Only after a crash.

All of the ones I've seen have been able to be activated from the cockpit if the pilots wanted. But it's not something I think would be done by the crew - I've never seen an emergency checklist that directs one to do it.

Quoting yv773p (Reply 60):
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on this? The Airbus computer pitches down because of something in the AOA probe and there is nothing the pilot can really do?

To protect against a stall, the computers will pitch the nose down if they sense too high of an angle of attack. If the AoA sensors are providing bad data, that could happen erroneously.

And before people get all up in arms about Airbus design philosophy, most jet aircraft out there have stick pushers that will do basically the same thing. In both cases, there are things that the pilots can do - Longhauler pointed out the Airbus procedure, and there is a procedure for disabling the stick pusher (or at least there is in the aircraft I fly). But it's difficult to see that coming, so you're probably going to be reacting to what the aircraft does, which can be confusing.

-Mir

hivue · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 59):
and there is nothing the pilot can really do?

Actually, your quote from longhauler says what the pilots do in that situation.

Quoting flymia (Reply 70):
but how easy is it for the pilots to just take control over the computers if they want to?

I think there is no modern airliner where disabling all computers on the airplane will result in a good outcome.

racko · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:30 pm

Summary of the important stuff from the press conference:

Timeline

10:01: Departure
10:45: Cruise (FL 380)
10:46: Descent
10:53: Loss of contact (6000 ft)

- no distress signal, no ATC contact regarding the descent
- Captain has 6000 hours on the A320
- Aircraft had an A-Check yesterday
- Flight computers have been changed to fix the AOA issue

LovesCoffee · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:30 pm

From the Dallas Morning News, link here.

Quote:
"The owner of a campground near the crash site, Pierre Polizzi, said he heard the plane making curious noises shortly before it crashed.

“At 11.30, I heard a series of loud noises in the air. There are often fighter jets flying over, so I thought it sounded just like that. I looked outside, but I couldn’t see any fighter planes,” he told The Associated Press. “The noise I heard was long — like 8 seconds — as if the plane was going more slowly than a military plane speed. There was another long noise after about 30 seconds.”
"

aviationaware · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:30 pm

It would be very interesting to study the cost of this event, especially the indirect cost due to lost bookings as the website is unavailable and obviously some people will now actively look for another airline as they perceive Germanwings or the entire Lufthansa family unsafe (my brother would be such an irrational person).

hivue · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting hoya (Reply 86):
Sudden loss of cabin pressure? At 38,000 feet, how much time do the pilots have to react? 10-12 seconds?

Whatever it is, under "normal" circumstances it should be enough. Airliners are designed and crews trained to handle pressurization accidents at altitude.

hivue · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 96):
It would be very interesting to study the cost of this event,

I think that rates pretty low on the priority list right now.

GianiDC · Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 94):
Summary of the important stuff from the press conference:

Timeline

10:01: Departure
10:45: Cruise (FL 380)
10:46: Descent
10:53: Loss of contact (6000 ft)

- no distress signal, no ATC contact regarding the descent
- Captain has 6000 hours on the A320
- Aircraft had an A-Check yesterday
- Flight computers have been changed to fix the AOA issue

Thanks for the summary. Is there an option to sort of pin this at the top of this thread and the ones that surely will follow? It will give new readers a good overview of the situation right now.

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