LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:36 pm

ATC lost signal at 10:53 at 6000 ft

But the wreckage is at 8,800 feet?

Did they try to recover?
 
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Semaex
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:40 pm

For your Information:

The German Air Force Flugbereitschaft ("Special Air Mission Wing)" is doing everything it can to get a couple of high-ranking political VIPs to the crashsite. Some are on their way already, others are going to be there tomorrow or in the next couple of days.

A lot of official protocol by a number of VIPs is going down the drain as we write. But I find it quite important to know that German, as well as French and Spanish, politicians can alter their plans in favor for something that feels indeed much closer to the people than the usual EU-debate.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
DALCE
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:40 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 96):
It would be very interesting to study the cost of this event, especially the indirect cost due to lost bookings as the website is unavailable and obviously some people will now actively look for another airline as they perceive Germanwings or the entire Lufthansa family unsafe (my brother would be such an irrational person).

sigh..... Don't you think priority is elsewhere at the moment. Leave those bean-counter ideas somewhere else.
I'm really getting upset by this way of thinking.....pffff
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):
From the official gendarmerie : Wreckage at 2700 m - 8100 ft - altitude. ( how does that fact gel with the flight Radar reported 6800 ft altitude ? no one knows.)

Just a question - could the possibly have descended for whatever reason, had a loss of situational awareness, descended below the cloud cover, and attempted to climb out to avoid a CFIT? Only asking because a webcam in the area linked in either the Guardian or BBC live updates showed cloud at peak level, roughly, and the FR24 plot shows a leveling out right at the end (or is that point derived?).
Down with that sort of thing!
 
Summa767
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 80):

If there indeed was no emergency signal whatever happened must have incapacitated the pilots very quickly. I guess an intentional act could explain lack of emergency call during such a long descent too, thinking of LAM crash.

One possibility that cannot be ruled out, but the LAM crash came down faster than seems to be the case here.
The fact that there was no Mayday call may be explained by other reasons, such as communications not being possible due to the nature of the circumstances that led to this crash. The pilots or communications could have become incapacitaded/disabled.
 
GianiDC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 103):
the FR24 plot shows a leveling out right at the end (or is that point derived?).

Flightradar is good for a general overview but lacks accuracy. So one should not take everything they show for granted.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 103):
Just a question - could the possibly have descended for whatever reason, had a loss of situational awareness, descended below the cloud cover, and attempted to climb out to avoid a CFIT? Only asking because a webcam in the area linked in either the Guardian or BBC live updates showed cloud at peak level, roughly, and the FR24 plot shows a leveling out right at the end (or is that point derived?).

Would they descend without contacting ATC? Or squawking if the radio was out?
 
travelavnut
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 75):
What is an ADRS? Are all Airbus pilots trained to do this?

The ADRS is the Air data inertial reference unit, an A320 has 3 of them and as I understand these boxes takes readings from various sensors (like the AoA sensor) and feed that data into the different flight computers. Turning off 2 of the 3 will force the Airbus into Alternate Law which disables the hard protections.

I am not an Airbus pilot so I am not sure but IIRC all of them know how to force the aircraft into Alternate Law.
Live From Amsterdam!
 
GianiDC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 104):
The fact that there was no Mayday call may be explained by other reasons, such as communications not being possible due to the nature of the circumstances that led to this crash
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 106):
Would they descend without contacting ATC?

Always remember: aviate, navigate, communicate.

[Edited 2015-03-24 07:47:46]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:47 pm

First helicopter arrived at the crash site:

http://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/580379555619278848

Quote:
Helicopter lands near #Germanwings crash site & finds no survivors; "the plane is disintegrated," says French PM
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:47 pm

I should also mention, that with the AOA probe contamination scenario I mentioned above, it only affects pitch control. The pilot still has full control over roll.

With the radar plots shown, it appears the aircraft did not turn at all. Without pilot intervention, the aircraft will remain in NAV mode. It seems odd that the aircraft did not turn when aiming at higher terrain.

While it almost looks like a rapid depressurization with an incapacitation, normally if decent is commanded, the autopilot will be set to 10,000 or minimum terrain clearance altitude. That way if both pilots become incapacitated, the aircraft will still level out safely.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting GianiDC (Reply 108):
Always remember aviate, navigate, communicate.

Sure, but the descent does not appear to be an emergency descent. It appears to be just a "faster than normal" descent.
 
flymia
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 93):
I think there is no modern airliner where disabling all computers on the airplane will result in a good outcome.

Well certainly not all, but someone correct me if I am wrong but on say a 737-800 if the autopilot is turned off what input do the flight computers have on pilots input to the flight controls? From my non-professional knowledge I believe it is none. I know on say a 777 there are flight envelope protections though.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:50 pm

The wreck site will be very close to 44°13'44.09"N 6°24'48.68"E
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:51 pm

La Provence:

tr:
Un général évoque un éventuel survivant
Selon le général David Galtier et France Info, un possible survivant aurait été aperçu sur les lieux de l'accident.

A general evokes a possible survivor
According to General David Galtier and France Info, a potential survivor was sighted on the scene.

http://www.laprovence.com/article/ac...0-morts-un-possible-survivant.html
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
SimonDanger
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:52 pm

I think anyone who is just a couple of points higher than of average intelligence should know that the media, whether for-profit or "public," are not as interested in facts as they are in what's new (ie; "news"). They want to be first to report new information, and will correct later if it turns out they were wrong (as long as it's not embarrassing). I don't expect BBC, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, PBS or any other source to be so dedicated to just reporting facts that they will wait hours or days to report what they know, and it's no longer surprising that many if not most media sources in this type of event get a lot wrong in the beginning.

Indeed, this accident has already seen revisions to the number of lost souls on board, emergency Mayday, and type of decent that we can be only 100% positive about one thing at this time: that what we know now will be largely different from what we know a week from now. The media is a creature of the demands of society for instant information. As a consumer of instant anything, you should not expect your instant coffee to be better than your instant news.

R.I.P. to all who were lost today.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 106):
Would they descend without contacting ATC? Or squawking if the radio was out?

I couldn't imagine that, but as the Pilots on here point out, aviate, navigate, communicate. Just thinking about the apparent 6000ft -> 8100ft climb at the end, though as we know, the early data often ends up wrong.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
GianiDC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 111):
Quoting GianiDC (Reply 108):
Always remember aviate, navigate, communicate.

Sure, but the descent does not appear to be an emergency descent. It appears to be just a "faster than normal" descent.

Yes but we don´t know what really was happening onboard in these critical minutes.
 
freqflyerNYC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:53 pm

I am hoping someone can provide clarification on a couple of very basic questions. Assuming the lack of a mayday call, or emergency being declared by the crew, indicates possible crew incapacitation (depressurization), would it be common (likely) for this to occur with none of the crew having time to respond? Wouldn't they be alerted to lack of oxygen and put on their masks? Also, several news outlets have reported that the speed decreased during the descent, and that this would indicate crew action. And if the crew was alert during the descent, and aware of trouble, they would have issued a mayday, and alerted ATC. So these two bits of information seem to contradict one another. The only other option seems to be that the plane was descending and due to faulty readings no one was aware of the loss of altitude until it was too late to facilitate a recovery. This last scenario seems unlikely, but perhaps others can offer their insight.
 
na
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:55 pm

I asked this before: Did D-AIPX already undergo the current LH-specific life extension program for old A320s?
 
32andBelow
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:55 pm

Weren't they below mountain tops. Maybe they didn't even have radio coverage? A satellite call takes time to initiate.
 
D L X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:56 pm

Wow. I bet Boeing wishes its airliner commercial hadn't just played during an Airbus crash coverage on cnn.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:57 pm

This has just been quoted on the BBC live update:

"There was some speculation in German media that a computer glitch caused by frozen sensors could have forced the plane into a steep dive. However, Germanwings has confirmed the A320's computer systems had been updated and do not believe this could be a cause".

Of course this does not rule this out but it would be unusual to publicly state this if you weren't pretty certain.

Hopefully they will locate the recorders soon although with the plane being "disintegrated", it may be a difficult task.
Base: BRU
 
GianiDC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting na (Reply 119):
LH-specific life extension program for old A320s?

what do they do in this program?
 
Pihero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 103):
Just a question

First, a correction : debris spread between 1600 and 2000 m altitude. That's between 5 and 6 thousand feet.

- The weather in the crash area was - in one pilot's term, "glorious". The embedded summits came later.

- The aircraft was destroyed ; the biggest piece is just about one meter long.

- There are - already - a few very important questions to be asked :

1/- Had there been a mayday message or an emergency sqawk ?
Nothing had confirmed it.

2/- Why hadn't there been an attempt to turn west and avoid the high terrain?... Why the straight course with no deviation at all ?

3/- What caused the loss of altitude ?

What is quite obscene is the political recuperation from the French officials... In a time of elections, i could say with just a bit of cynicism that it was expected...
Contrail designer
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:02 pm

La Provence

tr.
Le Stratotanker de l’armée française a arrêté les recherches et rentre à la base d’Istres après avoir survolé la zone à de nombreuses reprises (voir visuel).

The Stratotanker of the French army stopped the search and returned to Istres air base after flying over the crash area repeatedly.

http://www.laprovence.com/article/ac...0-morts-un-possible-survivant.html

 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
rolfen
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 19):
They sent an emergency signal. So they were aware that something did go wrong.
Quoting vio (Reply 21):
From what I understand, there was a "mayday" call. How would they do that if they were incapacitated?

Uh, maybe they became incapacitated after sending the mayday signal?
rolf
 
radone
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:04 pm

La Provence shows an image from Vernet, the nearest village from the crash site, so we can get an idea of the terrain in the area

http://www.laprovence.com/media/imag...rama/2015/03/24/photolmvernert.jpg

and a SAR helicopter

http://www.laprovence.com/media/imag...3-24/part-par-par8129061-1-1-0.jpg

[Edited 2015-03-24 08:07:25]
 
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Vio
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting rolfen (Reply 126):
Uh, maybe they became incapacitated after sending the mayday signal?

Apologies, that was an idiotic question on my part. I wasn't clear enough with it.

[Edited 2015-03-24 08:10:42]
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
speedbirdegjj
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:09 pm

Sorry if i've missed this but why wouldn't ATC have contacted them to enquire about the unscheduled descent?
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 124):
First, a correction : debris spread between 1600 and 2000 m altitude. That's between 5 and 6 thousand feet.

That answers my "recovery" question. No.
 
wilco737
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:10 pm

Quoting speedbirdegjj (Reply 129):
Sorry if i've missed this but why wouldn't ATC have contacted them to enquire about the unscheduled descent?

I am sure ATC tried to contact them, but it seems as there was no reply from the pilots on board.

wilco737
  
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Statement from Airbus:

http://www.airbus.com/crisis/
 
chrcaremanav
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:15 pm

Hi! My Condolences and Sympathies and deep Prayers for those Affected by this Tragedy and The SAR and Recovery Crew and those involved in the investigations and to all Lufthansa and Germanwings Staff and Crew and The Families of those Who died, Who are in pains and grief and will need Support and Love and Compassion the best Comfort there is.

Here is a picture via Airlive.net:

Airlive.net is saying there is some debris in the photo.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-baeXPniwUI...urs-milliers-de-m2-photo-el-dl.jpg
 
ariis
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:17 pm

How the surrounding landscape looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw2SfxfP-UQ

[Edited 2015-03-24 08:17:23]
FAO - Flight Activities Officer
 
Tancrede
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 48):
The worst thing about this accidents ( not counting the human side of the tragedy of course ), is that people in general see this kind of crashes and automatically think "flying is not safe", every time I say to someone "the most dangerous part of your trip is your car trip to the airport", I have a very squeptical reaction when we have this kind of tragedies all over the news....

I am a frequent flyer and in a way I think like you. But one thing disturb me with airplane crashes is that most of the time almost everybody die. That is the difference with other means of transport where chances to survive an accident are higher.
 
Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 118):
Assuming the lack of a mayday call, or emergency being declared by the crew, indicates possible crew incapacitation (depressurization), would it be common (likely) for this to occur with none of the crew having time to respond? Wouldn't they be alerted to lack of oxygen and put on their masks?

If it's a normal depressurization (and I say normal, but understand that pressurization systems in aircraft are very robust and rarely fail), then yes the crew should have plenty of time to become aware of the problem and get their masks on. In an explosive decompression (which are far more rare - I can't think of one offhand), they'd certainly know something was going on, but those are chaotic, and the crew might not have time to get their masks on before losing consciousness. However, this scenario would tend to result in the aircraft maintaining altitude until it ran out of fuel, which isn't what happened here. Explosive decompressions are dangerous and difficult to train for, so if a pilot has to deal with one, it's likely the first time they've seen anything remotely close to it, and confusion can easily result, degrading crew performance.

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 118):
Also, several news outlets have reported that the speed decreased during the descent, and that this would indicate crew action.

There's no way they would know that other than looking at groundspeed on a tracking website, but one would expect that to decrease as an aircraft descended.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
racko
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:22 pm

Crash site, via "Le Dauphine":

 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:23 pm

My thoughts & prayers are with those onboard the aircraft. I sure hope we can get to the bottom of this quickly.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 137):
Crash site, via "Le Dauphine":

There's no snow, I doubt if the photo is correct.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:23 pm

CGN made the whole homepage black and white, stating it is a bad day for all german aviation.

http://www.koeln-bonn-airport.de/index.php?id=1
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:25 pm

In the case of a pressurization accident or smoke in the cockpit, would it be standard procedure to set the AP to handle the emergency decent and recovery altitude or would the pilot simply of shut off the AP and manually fly the decent?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
mattdell
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):
There's no snow, I doubt if the photo is correct.

The ground looks burnt. The snow would have melted if there was an explosion on impact.

Edited to specify that I'm speculating!

[Edited 2015-03-24 08:28:29]
 
seansasLCY
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):
There's no snow, I doubt if the photo is correct.

Similar pictures are being shown from a helicopter on skynews so I assume it is genuine.
 
frostyj
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 137):

So it looks like the plane exploded. That is crazy
[url=http://m.maploco.com/details/5f34zxvq][img]http://www.maploco.com/vmap/s/8395334.png[/img][/url]
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:29 pm

@Karel Snow is more than 1500 /2000 these days, esp if you are looking south. It's spring right now

It's southern alps
So It can be (and it must be)
But we see nothing indeed
No big chunck of metal
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):
There's no snow, I doubt if the photo is correct.
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-prov...rase-dans-la-zone-de-barcelonnette

Shows a bigger overview, there is snow a little above the site.
 
ivanpaneque
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:30 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdlAuQpkTAo

this one is from 1991! lufthansa delivers the oldest aircraft germanwings
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 136):
Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 118):Also, several news outlets have reported that the speed decreased during the descent, and that this would indicate crew action.
There's no way they would know that other than looking at groundspeed on a tracking website, but one would expect that to decrease as an aircraft descended.

My understanding is that aircraft behavior is a bit peculiar in that speed tends to decrease when the airplane goes "downhill" in the sense that there's a decrease in TAS with a reduction in altitude -- given, of course, that IAS doesn't dramatically increase.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
GianiDC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 2

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 144):
So it looks like the plane exploded. That is crazy

Well, it was pretty much just starting its journey so still a lot of jet a-1, so it is quite plausible that there was/is fire or explosion.

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