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ukoverlander
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Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Given all the threads about the ME3 and the US3 I thought it was interesting (considering this is the hard product that most of us mere mortal fly) to see 'Airways Magazine' published it's Top 10 rankings of global airlines Economy Class products.

1. Etihad 93/100
2. Singapore Airlines 90/100
3. Cathay Pacific 89/100
4. Air New Zealand 87/100
5. Oman Air 85/100
6. Japan Airlines 82/8100
7. Emirates 80/100
8. Virgin Atlantic 80/100
9. China Airlines 80/100
10. Virgin America 79/100

Much of the debate has revolved around the quality of the US3/ME3 'hard product' so it's interesting to see that none of the US3 appear in the Top 10 (although Virgin America does appear at 10). It's also interesting that Qatar doesn't make the Top 10 either. Notably a number of other global carriers (particularly Asian carriers) are considered to provide superior products in Economy than that of Emirates but Etihad claims top spot.

It is just one survey from one Aviation magazine but it suggests the ME3 have plenty of competition in the economy area from Asian airlines. It would have been interesting to know where the US3 ranked but this information was not disclosed in the survey.

I can't endorse the results personally as I haven't flown on all of these carriers recently but given the timing i thought the survey was interesting to share with Anet users. Unfortunately as I only have the print version of the magazine I can't post a link to the survey.
 
phillyramp270
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:07 pm

Here we go again... And it's hard to argue against this fact
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
aviationaware
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm

That's the way it is, but then again it is not hard to be top notch if you don't have to earn money like Etihad.

Kudos to real airlines like Cathay and ANZ for making the list.
 
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DexSwart
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Although EY's business practitioners may be unfair, that's exactly what they are. A business. Fairness means little in such a massive marketplace.

Most people don't care about how "fair" carriers treat each other. They care about products, services and price.

And let me tell you, for those three? EY is hard to beat. Especially with their new Y class.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 2):
Kudos to real airlines like Cathay and ANZ for making the list.

I agree with you. I think this is what is most interesting. It does suggest that other global airlines can put a quality economy product in the sky and that they value the product and service side of the equation.

Again, it's just one survey but it's an interesting source of discussion from a source that I imagine has little motivation to demonstrate a bias. Interesting also to see that absent Virgin Atlantic no European carriers make the Top 10 list!
 
aviationaware
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 4):
Again, it's just one survey but it's an interesting source of discussion from a source that I imagine has little motivation to demonstrate a bias.

It is, but I think you will find most frequent economy travelers agree to the ranking. Economy is never great, but some airlines do manage to make it more sufferable than others and many of them are on this list, and well deserved.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:41 pm

And here are the top 15 most profitable carriers for the YE JUN14. Notice the zero correlation with Y product, except for JL  

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...lds-most-profitable-airlines.html/

Rank Best Margin
1 Copa (Panama) 22%
2 Spirit (U.S.) 18%
3 Allegiant (U.S.) 16%
4 Republic (U.S.) 16%
5 Ryanair (Ireland) 15%
6 Alaska (U.S.) 14%
7 Japan Airlines (Japan) 12%
8 Aegean (Greece) 12%
9 Hainan Airlines (China) 12%
10 Delta (U.S.) 11%
11 easyJet (U.K) 11%
12 WestJet (Canada) 11%
13 Southwest (U.S.) 11%
14 American (U.S.) 10%
15 Air Arabia (United Arab Emirates) 10%
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aviationaware
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:47 pm

All I know is that the Copa stocks in my portfolio are slackers and among the only that have lost value since I bought them.
 
wingman
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 7):
All I know is that the Copa stocks in my portfolio are slackers and among the only that have lost value since I bought them.

Stick to oil, pharma, financial, and tech. Juggle those four right and make good picks and you'll be OK. Airline stocks are for crack users, they seem so sexy and fun but the next morning you're down 24% and 3 of 4 holdings are declaring Ch. 11. or screaming for gov't protection.
 
MVAair
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:07 pm

US carriers have never been in the top.

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 3):
Although EY's business practitioners may be unfair, that's exactly what they are. A business. Fairness means little in such a massive marketplace.

I am not sure that they are indeed a business.

Im glad to see JAL is profitable.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
And here are the top 15 most profitable carriers for the YE JUN14. Notice the zero correlation with Y product, except for JL

That's all well and good but as a passenger I personally care about the product and the service the airline gives me. Given a level playing field I'm going to choose the carrier who provides me with the better flying experience.

Unless you are a shareholder it really doesn't matter how much money the airline makes in profits - it's not part of my flying experience. I do find it interesting that 2 (United and AA) of the US3 are missing from both of these tables.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 10):
That's all well and good but as a passenger I personally care about the product and the service the airline gives me. Given a level playing field I'm going to choose the carrier who provides me with the better flying experience.

You've underlined my point: as long as it doesn't cost extra, you care about product.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
You've underlined my point: as long as it doesn't cost extra, you care about product.

Nice try Maverick. I think you are choosing to make a VERY selective interpretation!!

My point is given a choice of carriers, flying the same route at approximately the same time of day I will choose product and service as my differentiator. I certainly won't pull up the various airlines annual financial statements to look to see which one is most profitable!!!

For example, if flying Boston - Heathrow with a choice of say British Airways, American, Delta or Virgin Atlantic in economy then personally I'd take Virgin because for me they offer the best product. Cost in international economy rarely has that much to do with it - these guys pretty much all charge the same price on competitive routes (provided you are not booking at short notice).
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:09 pm

Airlines, particularly the US and Europe really need to improve their Y class. I started having enough bad experiences so began looking for vacations by car, train and my boat. The message of many airlines, and a number of posters here is that it you only can afford or willing to pay for Y, tough S**t. I hear it, so don't fly as much.

I don't mind extra fees, but I particularly hate the threat of 'gotcha' fees and penalties. It seems that so many airlines are copying the worst features of the US medical system and banks. Fees for various things including baggage, meals, beverages, and most importantly ticket changes should bear a close relationship to costs.

For example, if customers are gaming ticket changes it is understandable that airlines should charge enough to cover costs and make their desired profit margin on those costs. When I fly if at all I choose airlines which do not have 'gotcha' charges. If none such are available I seriously consider another kind of vacation.

ps - I am spending a lot more for vacations and recreation than I did when I first retired some years ago.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Viscount724
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:21 pm

I wouldn't rank any airline with 10-abreast in Y class on 777s as the best Y class product. Given the choice of any of the ME3 I would pick QR for that reason alone as they're still 9-abreast on 777s.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 8):

Stick to oil, pharma, financial, and tech. Juggle those four right and make good picks and you'll be OK. Airline stocks are for crack users, they seem so sexy and fun but the next morning you're down 24% and 3 of 4 holdings are declaring Ch. 11. or screaming for gov't protection.

Yeah, I seem to recall reading many years back that former AA boss, Crandall said something to the effect, that he refuses to invest in an airline, even AA. Airline stocks are very high risk and not great returns.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
tortugamon
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Thread starter):
1. Etihad 93/100
Quoting ukoverlander (Thread starter):
4. Air New Zealand 87/100
Quoting ukoverlander (Thread starter):
7. Emirates 80/100

I will note that these airlines fly 10-abreast 777s. I guess the flying public really does not care.

tortugamon
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Given the choice of any of the ME3 I would pick QR for that reason alone as they're still 9-abreast on 777s.

And yet QR has narrower seats on its 787s than other 9Y 787 operators (and narrower, for that matter, than EK's 10-abreast 77W).
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 17):

As far as I know there is just one 787 operator with 8 across. Almost all of them have the same 9 across configuration. It is almost identical to EK's 777 width-wise.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 18):
Almost all of them have the same 9 across configuration.

Correct, but the Qatar seat is narrower than most (16.9" vs. 17.2"). Still not sure why QR made that decision.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Given the choice of any of the ME3 I would pick QR for that reason alone as they're still 9-abreast on 777s.

And yet QR has narrower seats on its 787s than other 9Y 787 operators (and narrower, for that matter, than EK's 10-abreast 77W).

I highly doubt QR's 77W seats at 9-abreast are narrower than 10-abreast seats. You have to look at how carriers are measuring seat width. Are they only measuring the seat cushion width, or also including the width of the armrests, for example? There is no consistent data on airline seat width.

In any case, cramming 10 people in the space of 9 can't help but be worse. The narrow aisles on 10-abreast 777s also add to the impression of lack of space.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
Nice try Maverick. I think you are choosing to make a VERY selective interpretation!!

Not at all--you just doubled down:

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
these guys pretty much all charge the same price on competitive routes
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
I will note that these airlines fly 10-abreast 777s. I guess the flying public really does not care.

I think you put a PTV in front of most people and they forget where they are 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
I wouldn't rank any airline with 10-abreast in Y class on 777s as the best Y class product.
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
will note that these airlines fly 10-abreast 777s. I guess the flying public really does not care.

Except that, at least from what I hear anecdotally here in TDot, lots of people rave about EK's A380 service. And for most of North America, that's what you're getting from EK. And when they do use ten-abreast on a 777, they compensate by offering higher pitch, something the US3 don't do. People are less sensitive to 17" wide seats if they have 33" pitch than if they have 17" wide seats and 31" pitch.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):

In any case, cramming 10 people in the space of 9 can't help but be worse.

This is why I complain so much about AC on here. I used to actually like the airline, try and fly it whenever I could, because they had a fantastic product on the 777. Now? Not so much.....
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Not at all--you just doubled down:

Again a very selective reading and interpretation Maverick, but again nice try!!!
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
You've underlined my point: as long as it doesn't cost extra, you care about product.

How dare a consumer try to get the most bang for their buck!

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
My point is given a choice of carriers, flying the same route at approximately the same time of day I will choose product and service as my differentiator

This is my experience too. Prices tend to be about the same on most booking engines. Few dollars here or there. And then for me it comes down to other items like loyalty, total travel time, arrival and departure times, etc. But I do know that when family or friends have booked with the ME3, it's usually because:

1) Luggage allowance. It's getting even now. But for a while, they had a distinct advantage.
2) Reputation for service. Like it or not, the ME3 are perceived to have better service.
3) Special handling. The ME3 and their hubs are great with the elderly who may not speak English. Always someone who will speak their language nearby. I know some elderly folks who won't fly unless it's through DXB or AUH, because they feel familiar and comfortable there.

Price is a large factor to be sure. But I've never known anybody who booked a $1500 long-haul ticket who based their decision on the last $25 -$50 dollars. That's where the, "it's all about the lowest price" brigade is wrong, in my opinion.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 24):
Price is a large factor to be sure. But I've never known anybody who booked a $1500 long-haul ticket who based their decision on the last $25 -$50 dollars.

Many people do. And during peak seasons, many of the most price-sensitive passengers are travelling as part of a family group. If 3 or 4 people are flying together, a $50 saving per passenger quickly becomes meaningful.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):

You completely ignored his point, QR have - far and away - the most cramped 787 configuration. Not only are QR's seats 0.3" narrower than every other 9 abreast 787 operator, they are also narrower than any seats found in any 10 abreast 777.

QR are far from being the good guys here. Statistically they are narrower than EK and EY in a 777.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Many people do. And during peak seasons, many of the most price-sensitive passengers are travelling as part of a family group. If 3 or 4 people are flying together, a $50 saving per passenger quickly becomes meaningful.

Absolutely. But thanks to the wonderful demand management systems used by every airline, the airline that is "cheapest" varies every minute of every day.

All that is to say that price while a huge factor is most certainly not the be all, end all, of the decision matrix. Saving $200 on a family trip might be important to one family. To another, they might well spend the $200 on a faster routing because there's less hassle with the crying baby. And yet another might spend, not just the $200, but the entire amount to fly a particular carrier because dad or mom has status with that airline from his/her work travels.

You're right, that during peak, a lot of that demand is probably extremely price-sensitive. Off-peak, and more in the sense of a baseline demand, I'm not so sure (probably a good bit of business travel gets in there).

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 26):
QR are far from being the good guys here.

Both and EY and QR are now configuring all their incoming aircraft to 17/31 going forward. The saving grace was that they avoided sending these cramped airplanes to North America. But even that's changing. If I had to choose a Gulf carrier, I'd only pick EK. And specifically because of the higher seat pitch. And the fact that they send the A380 on most of their North American routes.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 13):
I started having enough bad experiences so began looking for vacations by car, train and my boat.

I really don't get how people do 14 hours with a 17" wide seat (jostling for elbow room with a stranger), and knee crushing 31" pitch. And this is coming from someone who's slept on a metal crate in the back of a herc. And in this age of cutbacks, it's not even uncommon to see a business traveler in the back of the bus.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 13):
The message of many airlines, and a number of posters here is that it you only can afford or willing to pay for Y, tough S**t. I hear it, so don't fly as much.

Exactly. Or in my case, I won't bother with upgrades where the prices are ridiculously high (just look at Y+ costing double what Y does). Airlines don't give people like me who are willing to spend a little bit more reasonable options. So then it comes down to trying to find the most comfortable Y product for my dollar. They argue that the extra investment doesn't drive yield. They're right. Their preferred yield for that investment drove me to their competitors!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 26):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):


You completely ignored his point, QR have - far and away - the most cramped 787 configuration. Not only are QR's seats 0.3" narrower than every other 9 abreast 787 operator, they are also narrower than any seats found in any 10 abreast 777.

What source are you using for your seat width data? As mentioned earlier, there is no consistent source that measures seat widths the same way. But even so, when I look at Seatguru.com, I find many 787 operators show their seat widths either the same as QR or in a few cases slightly narrower. So I think your claim that QR is 0.3" narrower than EVERY OTHER 9-abreast 787 operator is wrong. And even for 787 operators that show slightly wider 787 seats, the differences are so small as to be meaningless. Example: AC shows 17.3". Do you really think anyone is going to notice 0.1" difference? I don't.

The 787 operators that Seatguru.com shows with 17.2" (or less) other than QR:

AI - 17.0
NZ - 17.2
LO - 16.9
RJ - 17.0
Norwegian - 17.2

And even for carriers that show slightly wider 787 seats, since carriers measure seat width different ways, you'll probably find that some of those carriers' seats are identical to the seats used by QR.
 
Planesmart
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:07 am

If EK Y was ranked just based on the A380, they would be 1st.
 
aviationaware
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting planesmart (Reply 29):
If EK Y was ranked just based on the A380, they would be 1st.

shoulda, coulda, woulda.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting planesmart (Reply 29):

Have you flown SQ's A380?
come visit the south pacific
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting planesmart (Reply 29):
If EK Y was ranked just based on the A380, they would be 1st.

In about 15 years (starting in 2020) EK is going to make their Y look absolutely luxurious compared to others. With only the A380 and 777X, every seat will be 18" wide with 32-34" pitch while all the Western legacies and EY and QR flying 787s pack them with 17" wide seats and 31" pitch.

Watch the reputation EK gets then with the flying public. I'm already certain a huge part of the goodwill they have in North America is because of the A380s they send here. When every seat is as nice as the A380, that'll be something.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 32):
In about 15 years (starting in 2020) EK is going to make their Y look absolutely luxurious compared to others. With only the A380 and 777X, every seat will be 18" wide with 32-34" pitch while all the Western legacies and EY and QR flying 787s pack them with 17" wide seats and 31" pitch.

15 years of competition and cost growth and you think EK is going to increase their Y product? Unlikely. Will they have lie flats in J by then?  
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bwest
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:06 pm

Strange to see Thai Airways not in this list. The economy flights I've taken with them, on a 9 abreast 773, have been among my best flights in economy. Great food, hot towels, nice IFE selection, attentive crews and toilets that look spotless even after 10 hours of flying. I had a terrible back pain after my recent EY flight in Y. SQ also delivered a high and consistent standard eacht time I flew with them.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 32):
every seat will be 18" wide

Can they possibly do 10-across in Y with 18" seats? I didn't think that was possible.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
15 years of competition and cost growth and you think EK is going to increase their Y product?

Ummm. It's the same product as today with wider seats on the 777X thanks to Boeing's magic with the walls. What EK will have is a more consistent product across Y that beats every Western legacy and the others flying cramped 787s. At least on the seat anyway....

LH with 350s and 777X will be the only carrier possibly comparable.

Oh. And the beauty about upsizing is that their CASM stays the same when costs rise.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
Can they possibly do 10-across in Y with 18" seats? I didn't think that was possible.

Boeing says they can with the 777X.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 36):
Ummm. It's the same product as today with wider seats on the 777X thanks to Boeing's magic with the walls. What EK will have is a more consistent product across Y that beats every Western legacy and the others flying cramped 787s. At least on the seat anyway....

Sure. This from the carrier that was investigating an 11-across 380. In 15 years you can almost be 100% sure density will increase, and amenities will decrease, unless buying habits radically change.
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hz747300
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:13 pm

When I read that list, I read: in-seat amenities, and service. This is likely why the US3 are not on the list. Having recently flown Alaska, US, United, I do not think their seat comfort is any different. However, UA seemed to have a nice in-seat product, but they charge for it. US and Alaska did not offer anything, though on Alaska you could stream their system to your device, so they lack in-seat amenities. The service on Alaska was great, but on the others it was indifferent.

Not shocked.

As a regular flyer of CX, it's obvious that their product is excellent. Also, I've recently done EK, but in J, though I did fly them in Y not too long ago. JL is not surprising, the seat on the 788 is one of the nicest in the 2-4-2!
Keep on truckin'...
 
aviationaware
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 32):
n about 15 years (starting in 2020) EK is going to make their Y look absolutely luxurious compared to others.

Unlikely due to peer pressure. Also, if EK gets their will in 15 years their fleet will be full of A380neos that will undoubtedly feature a 3-5-3 arrangement, so there goes your dreamy story.
 
superjeff
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:35 pm

As long as the U.S. carriers exist in a market that cares only about price (they long ago forgot the term "value" as opposed to "price," this race to the bottom will continue. However, in all fairness, you can't compare Alaska's service, for example, on a flight between Seattle and Los Angeles, or even transcon, with an international service on any airline, including the U.S. carriers. Any U.S. carrier's inflight product is substantially better on long haul international (i.e., LAX-NRT; JFK-LHR) than on typical domestic service. And I have flown internationally on many of the large international carriers (though, admittedly not on the ME3, including Qantas, Thai, British Airways, Air France, Iberia, Lufthansa, and Swiss, along with AA, US, and UA transatlantic, and Delta DTW-NRT-HKG,, and found no real difference in steerage, although some carriers seem to have a slightly better ambiance. It doesn't matter who you fly; it is still not what it was years ago on U.S. airlines like Pan Am, TWA, and Braniff, for example. But every time I see somebody bitching about U.S. airlines' domestic service and assuming it is equally bad internationally, I roll my eyes. Whether or not you have in-seat video is not the only consideration on international, and many people will never fly the ME3 just because they aren't going anywhere near Abu Dhabi, Doha, or Dubai. So the real comparison is not between United's DEN-SFO service and QR-s DFW-Doha, but between British Airways and American/Delta/Virgin Atlantic between New York and London, Delta/AirFrance,American/United to Paris, or AA/US/UA/DL/LY JFK/PHL-TLV, etc. And Economy is Economy is Economy. If you want more, you'll have to pay for either Premium Economy (if the airlines offer it on any given route), or Y+, EC, MCE, depending on the carrier.
 
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enzo011
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 32):
In about 15 years (starting in 2020) EK is going to make their Y look absolutely luxurious compared to others. With only the A380 and 777X, every seat will be 18" wide with 32-34" pitch while all the Western legacies and EY and QR flying 787s pack them with 17" wide seats and 31" pitch.

Watch the reputation EK gets then with the flying public. I'm already certain a huge part of the goodwill they have in North America is because of the A380s they send here. When every seat is as nice as the A380, that'll be something.

Until they order the 787-10 and cram in 9 abreast though...   

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
And even for carriers that show slightly wider 787 seats, since carriers measure seat width different ways, you'll probably find that some of those carriers' seats are identical to the seats used by QR.

You are correct, we cannot be sure how they measure their seat width. However the complaints I have seen on the 787 on QR has always mentioned the seat width. Even the Qatar website itself has the seat width at 16.89-17.28".The QR website shows the A350 seat width as up to 18". I wish we could get a consistent measurement from the airline itself, never mind across the industry.

http://www.qatarairways.com/iwov-res...te_QR-787-25-20-D-D-0197-REV-5.pdf

http://www.qatarairways.com/iwov-res...emp-docs/seatmaps/Seatmap-A350.pdf
 
Mir
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting planesmart (Reply 29):
If EK Y was ranked just based on the A380, they would be 1st.

If DL's Y were ranked just based on their long-haul fleet, they'd be on the list. I'd put them ahead of VS.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tortugamon
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
I think you put a PTV in front of most people and they forget where they are 

I think you are right.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 22):
Except that, at least from what I hear anecdotally here in TDot, lots of people rave about EK's A380 service. And for most of North America, that's what you're getting from EK.

IAD, SEA, BOS, and soon MCO are all non-A380s.

Its irrelevant anyway. EK flies many more passengers on its 777s than it does on its A380s.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 41):
Until they order the 787-10 and cram in 9 abreast though...

It would be more room than they have on their 10-abreast 777s which people appear to be happy with. And the -10s would be for regional service anyway.

tortugamon
 
Armodeen
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:02 pm

Nobody with 10 abreast on the 777 would get my vote for best economy. Cathay, Singapore, Qatar etc are all very good.
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
This from the carrier that was investigating an 11-across 380.
Quoting AviationAware (Reply 39):
Also, if EK gets their will in 15 years their fleet will be full of A380neos that will undoubtedly feature a 3-5-3 arrangement, so there goes your dreamy story.

Airbus says that 3-5-3 on the A380 can still yield 18" wide seats. Hence, their PR drive for minimum seat widths.

http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201...loor-on-a380-to-create-11-abreast/

And that's assuming that EK can still stomach that config despite Tim Clark saying there isn't the customer acceptance for that config.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
In 15 years you can almost be 100% sure density will increase, and amenities will decrease, unless buying habits radically change.

EK is moving from ~350 seats per airplane (excluding the A380), to ~450 seats average across their entire fleet when they just operate 380s and 777Xs. That's quite the drop in CASM. I'm sure that will help mitigate much of coming cost increases.

Also, note that in the last 20 years EK has added amenities (like IFE) much earlier than other carriers. So clearly, there's no trend of cutting back.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 41):
Until they order the 787-10 and cram in 9 abreast though...

Perhaps. But EK (not necessarily EY and QR) has a habit of compensating for width with pitch. You won't find 31" pitch on their airplanes, where you have 17" wide seats. And any 787s they buy will be a small portion of their fleet (with 150 777Xs and 140 A380s). And you won't be flying that airplane for 12 hrs like you do on a North American legacy. AC is now flying its high density 77W to HKG. 450 pax in 17" seats, 31" pitch with only 8 washrooms in Y (50 pax per washroom). This is the new North American service standard for economy.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 32):

Watch the reputation EK gets then with the flying public. I'm already certain a huge part of the goodwill they have in North America is because of the A380s they send here. When every seat is as nice as the A380, that'll be something.

And at this point SQ will have A380's and A350's with the same level of comfort.
come visit the south pacific
 
aviationaware
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 45):
Perhaps. But EK has a habit of compensating for width with pitch.

Correct, yet studies show that seat width is actually a much larger determinant of perceived passenger comfort than pitch.
 
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enzo011
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 43):
It would be more room than they have on their 10-abreast 777s which people appear to be happy with. And the -10s would be for regional service anyway.

I guess it depends on the seats whether it will be wider. If QR fits 16.9" seats and EK uses similar seats then it will not be more comfortable. We will just have to wait for their order and their layout.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 45):
Perhaps. But EK (not necessarily EY and QR) has a habit of compensating for width with pitch. You won't find 31" pitch on their airplanes, where you have 17" wide seats. And any 787s they buy will be a small portion of their fleet (with 150 777Xs and 140 A380s). And you won't be flying that airplane for 12 hrs like you do on a North American legacy. AC is now flying its high density 77W to HKG. 450 pax in 17" seats, 31" pitch with only 8 washrooms in Y (50 pax per washroom). This is the new North American service standard for economy.

Doesn't EK and EY have similar seating densities for their planes? In their 2 class 77W Emirates have 427 seats and EY has 412 seats. I know Etihad has a roomier J Class, but they have 14 less seats than EK in J. They both have around 385 Y class seats in the same area of the aircraft.
 
ytz
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RE: Etihad No1 Econ Class Ranking (Airways Magazine)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 47):
Correct, yet studies show that seat width is actually a much larger determinant of perceived passenger comfort than pitch.

I've read that passengers prefer pitch to width.

But it's a moot point. EK will steadily be moving to 18" wide seats while a lot of the competition is moving in the other direction.

LH is the other notable exception. But they won't keep the pitch higher. And the rest of the LH group won't offer the same comfort standard.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 46):
And at this point SQ will have A380's and A350's with the same level of comfort.

Good on SQ. Hopefully, it wins them more business.

Airlines adopting 17/31 in Y should have their reputations suffer. People will notice EY's new standard once they got on their 787.

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