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bueb0g
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting sharles (Reply 107):
Is the autopilot required for the flight path recorded from ADS-B?

Nope

Quoting 764 (Reply 116):
So the average zero power descend (maintaining airspeed) is somewhere between 1500fpm and 2000fpm for the A320, right? Now this flight descended at 3500ish fpm, yet its air speed did not increase significantly.

I think possibly a little more. 3500ish is probably possible with zero thrust, according to some of the pilot responses here.

Quoting navcad92f14d (Reply 117):
I have heard, for example, that pilot creativity in dealing with emergencies is all but squelched.

You have heard wrong, then.
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hh65man
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:27 pm

The reason they have suspended ops for the night would most likely be weather related. Flying hellos close to mountains can be massively challenging. Wind shere, terrain, and poor weather would all be the main factors. Even though they have strong search lights (ours was over a million candle power in strength) they wouldn't be of much help to the actual crews in the helos, only to the people on the ground. And then there may be a chance of not having night vision capabilities.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 144):
Everyone says Airbus is too computerized, if that is the case, if the pilots were decapacitated, wouldn't the aircraft keep flying and eventually overshoot destination?

In case of a depressurization pilots would need to perform a quick descent, exactly what happened. In this situation then one would obviously expect them to make a turn to avoid the mountains & put the aircraft on course towards some nearby diversion airport, such as Marseille. That turn never happened, thus I believe the pilots had enough time to put the aircraft into descent and only after that they lost their ability to control the airplane.
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goosebayguy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:28 pm

If I recall correctly the Helios flight flew for quite some time before running out of fuel. This flight would have had plenty of fuel to fy onwards for quite some time yet it didn't. Or perhaps its a combination of no fuel and no oxygen?
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:28 pm

A goat herder from Haute Bleone was undoubtedly one of the last persons to see the Germanwings A320 before it crashed.

Interview of the goat herder with FranceTVinfos:

Translate Google:

"We were between 11 am and noon, at the foot of the mountain Tromas, when we saw an airliner that had just round the mountain on the right. It was flying low, and its trajectory was curious. But in 1300 meters, with a large mountain that rises to 2500 meters in front, we did not realize it was flying so low. And, its trajectory, we thought he had Nice rather than Marseille.

The aircraft had to seek a way out, a way out. But this is a cul-de-sac.

At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. By far, it was even said that he could perhaps strike. It was certainly looking for him, and he had the spot. We often have drills, planes. They make a lot of noise. Moreover, they frighten our animals. So, we did not hear the explosion when the plane crashed, but we realized afterwards that they had probably been the last to see this airplane.

Tromas is 2 500 meters and behind the Three Dioceses are 2900 meters. The aircraft had to seek a way out, a way out. But this is a cul-de-sac. The aircraft then went crashing down the side of the neck Mariaud, probably on the cliffs of the massif of Three Dioceses. The fighter jet has certainly seen what happened. We later realized that he had to be sent on the site. "

FranceTVinfo link:
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-div...niers-a-voir-cet-avion_857879.html
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 138):
Not making any supposition here, just wondering what the flight protection system would allow as a "maximum" descent? Would the profile be similar?

An emergency descent is more in the 5000 feet/minute ballpark and wouldn't trigger the protection. The protection also allows crazy banks and steep climbs (I'll never forget the take-off of the demo A346 at the Paris Air Show in 2005, crazy !).

Depending on the aircraft an emergency descent can be even much quicker (DC-8 with thrust reversers, more than 10000 feet/minute !).
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Polot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting sharles (Reply 145):
Not necessarily in an FBW aircraft.

A structural failure that completely incapacitates the crew but causes so little damage that the FBW/Flight Envelope Protection is still functioning and able to maintain a a constant smooth descent rate and speed is highly unlikely. If there was a "bomb", which I 100% don't believe, it would likely be more chemical in nature than physical.

FWB doesn't violate the laws of physics, if something happened with enough energy to cause a structural failure it would likely be highlighted somewhere in the speed and altitude data.

[Edited 2015-03-24 13:34:57]
 
 
captainsimon
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 144):
Everyone says Airbus is too computerized, if that is the case, if the pilots were decapacitated, wouldn't the aircraft keep flying and eventually overshoot destination?

In case of a depressurization pilots would need to perform a quick descent, exactly what happened. In this situation then one would obviously expect them to make a turn to avoid the mountains & put the aircraft on course towards some nearby diversion airport, such as Marseille. That turn never happened, thus I believe the pilots had enough time to put the aircraft into descent and only after that they lost their ability to control the airplane




In this scenario, I would have expected radio contact from the crew.

[Edited 2015-03-24 13:34:09]

[Edited 2015-03-24 13:34:38]
 
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HALtheAI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:33 pm

What if one of the pilots was standing up (to go to the lav, stretching, whatever) when they got a windshield failure. He starts to get sucked out of the aircraft, other pilot grabs his legs to keep him inside but can't reach his oxygen mask anymore so just sets lower target altitude.

Other possibility that I haven't seen mentioned yet is a cockpit fire, particularly a fast-growing one fed by an emergency oxygen supply like on a TK 777 a few years back.
 
bueb0g
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 126):
All automation and technology is not perfect, flight envelope protection is just one of them, so don't ignore the potential downsides to it either. They are systems built by man and man is fallible, therefore they are too.

  

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 134):
- Aircraft climbed to FL380 and 3 minutes later entered a steep descent (somewhat steeper but similar to a controlled emergency descent rate).

No, the descent was quite shallower than a controlled emergency descent.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 134):
- Passed through 10,000ft. with a speed above 250 knots.

This is an important point. Strongly implies that nobody was in control or the crew did not intend to fly below 10k.

Quoting hivue (Reply 135):
It would be interesting to hear some of the professional pilots out there weigh in on the virtues of "pilot creativity" in an emergency situation.

Well creativity is one of the purposes of pilots; computers can't respond intelligently to situations they have not specifically been prepared for, while humans can. But I don't think airbus protections get in the way of that, rather they keep pilots away from attitudes they would never want to be in.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 138):
Not making any supposition here, just wondering what the flight protection system would allow as a "maximum" descent? Would the profile be similar?

There is no "maximum descent" protection, only a max nose-down protection of 15 degrees. A 3,500fmp descent rate even at the relatively high speeds this aircraft was doing would not generate that pitch angle, so there is no reason for the protections to have stepped in.
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pvjin
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting captainsimon (Reply 158):
In this scenario, I would have expected radio contact from the crew.

Well, it's possible they lost consciousness before they had time to communicate. Of course in case of depressurization or in flight fire you start descending first and communicate only after that.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
kl911
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 154):
At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. By far, it was even said that he could perhaps strike. It was certainly looking for him, and he had the spot. We often have drills, planes. They make a lot of noise. Moreover, they frighten our animals.

So could the A320 have descended into a military airspace and been hit/touched by the fighter?
 
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lugie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 141):
Hopefully the voice recorder will be found in fairly short order, given how quickly they located the data recorder. I think the cockpit recordings are going to be key in determining the cause of this accident.

Is it already public which recorder they found? Because I agree with you, right now the CVR would probably be more important to be found...
Q400 E175 E190 CRJ7 CRJ9 CRJX MD88 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 B733 B73G B738 B739 B748 B764 B772 B77W B788 B789
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW IAD YYZ SJO PTY
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:39 pm

Very many wet lease ad hoc charters by other airlines for 4u today, even AB is flying...
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
bueb0g
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 153):
If I recall correctly the Helios flight flew for quite some time before running out of fuel. This flight would have had plenty of fuel to fy onwards for quite some time yet it didn't. Or perhaps its a combination of no fuel and no oxygen?

Well yes, nobody seriously suggests this aircraft ran out of fuel. Somebody initiated a descent.

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 159):
Other possibility that I haven't seen mentioned yet is a cockpit fire, particularly a fast-growing one fed by an emergency oxygen supply like on a TK 777 a few years back.

Definitely a possibility. You mean Egyptair and not Turkish however. But yeah, it's possible to imagine a scenario where fire starts > crew begins emergency descent to 10k > crew incapacitated by fire > fire disables autopilot system/disoriented crew leans on stick and aircraft goes through 10k. There are a lot of potential scenarios, and there's no sense at all getting attached to any particular one at this stage. All will become clear.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
IADCA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 162):
So could the A320 have descended into a military airspace and been hit/touched by the fighter?

In the realm of literally anything being possible, sure. But why did it start to descend without being instructed? Hijacked by a laser beam on a UFO?

Unfortunately, I think the quote you cited is more likely to add to conspiracy theories than the actual investigation.
 
wilco737
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 164):

At times like this you just help each other and don't make each other lifes even harder.

Even if the aviation industry is a difficult one with a big competition, but when such things happen, it is one big family and it is being helped as good as they can.

wilco737
  
 
sandyb123
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 154):
At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. By far, it was even said that he could perhaps strike. It was certainly looking for him, and he had the spot.

Has anyone else picked up on this? Haven't heard anything about it in the media?

Was a military jet scrambled to investigate? Was it just coincidence that they were flying in the area (the farmer said that they get a lot of low flying military in the region)? It is odd that he saw the aircraft so low but didn't hear the impact?

Perhaps the farmer is exaggerating or miss-remembering what he saw.

Sad day for aviation. RIP.

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kl911
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 164):
Very many wet lease ad hoc charters by other airlines for 4u today, even AB is flying...

Yes, a Germanwings flight LHR-HAM passed over my house, operated by a Titan 757
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 147):
I don't mean to be biased here. I want people to travel safely from A to B and neither A nor B airplanes are perfect all the time. (Nor maintained perfectly all the time.) BUT I can't help but notice what seems to me to be not only a problem with pitot tubes and airspeed indication but moreover a HAL-like computer/FMS system that can, at times, take too much control and doesn't make it easy for a pilot to AVIATE before she can navigate and communicate.

The pilot is supposed to know his aircraft. If the aircraft is not performing as it should, then the pilot knows how to take control (shutting down 2 flight computers). If the pilot "fights" the aircraft, then things can go wrong, even if in fact the aircraft was performing normally (AF447, if the pilot had done nothing, no crash), I expect a similar outcome in a less computerized aircraft. Typically loss of situational awareness leads to many CFIT, on all types.

Personally I'd like flight computers to be programmed to avoid those. Airbus airplanes will sometimes apply power and climb, but often they won't, when in fact a go around / emergency climb or even a steep turn would be needed. For example in the case of the A330 crash in Lybia, Air Blue A321 in a mountain in Pakistan, or here. Same thing for Boeing and the 737 in AMS or the 777 in SFO.
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Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 160):
Quoting Independence76 (Reply 134):
- Passed through 10,000ft. with a speed above 250 knots.

This is an important point. Strongly implies that nobody was in control or the crew did not intend to fly below 10k.

If I was doing an emergency descent, speed limits are not particularly important. So I wouldn't read much into that at all.

-Mir
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TC957
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:43 pm

One thing that has struck me about recent accidents including this one is that ATC had no indication of anything wrong - until the aircraft vanishes from radar screens.
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?
Yes - I know about the aviate, navigate, communicate rule. Yes, I appreciate crew have their hands full trying to save the flight. I'm talking about a 10 - 15 sec call with a few key words.
Obviously if pilots were incapacitated then that can't happen but surely it would help investigators focus quicker on causes of crashes involving total losses.
Just a idea, so don't flame me.
 
Independence76
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 171):
If I was doing an emergency descent, speed limits are not particularly important. So I wouldn't read much into that at all.

I would agree, but going that fast in a zone where planes are meant to fly slower is a safety hazard. Planes in emergency situations contact ATC about their intentions and they have traffic cleared out of their way.

Germanwings 9525 did not make any contact with ATC throughout the entire duration of their descent. The lack of communication already makes this incident particularly abnormal in nature.

[Edited 2015-03-24 13:48:04]
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?

Or is there a way for a pilot to hit a button on the stick that creates a hot mic / broadcast scenario for anyone to hear? Just one tap and then all problems, struggles, dialogue become public to the airwaves?
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namezero111111
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):

The only time this would be useful is to transmit position (for faster SAR). They already have one recorder, probably gonna find the other one soon. They should have a good idea by tomorrow night provided the recorders are in good shape.

Also mind that the pilots in cases like this may not even know what exactly they're dealing with. Those 10-15 secs are better spent troubleshooting. If they had had time, they would have declared an emergency.

[Edited 2015-03-24 13:50:01]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?
Yes - I know about the aviate, navigate, communicate rule. Yes, I appreciate crew have their hands full trying to save the flight. I'm talking about a 10 - 15 sec call with a few key words.
Obviously if pilots were incapacitated then that can't happen but surely it would help investigators focus quicker on causes of crashes involving total losses.
Just a idea, so don't flame me.

I think the current protocols are fine
Aviate, navigate, and communicate.

The CVR and FDR will let us know what happened after the fact if Aviate and Navigate didn't work out.

However, better technology definitely allows for other ways of storing and transmitting vital data. Streamed data feeds, possibly cockpit or ATC initiated, of the CVR and FDR would be nice features to have, but not necessary.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?
Yes - I know about the aviate, navigate, communicate rule. Yes, I appreciate crew have their hands full trying to save the flight. I'm talking about a 10 - 15 sec call with a few key words.

As I was so rudely told in the previous Air Asia thread:

It doesn't matter if you CAN communicate, when you're upside down or tumbling out of control and unable to control the plane.

The reason why the communicate is the last piece of the puzzle is because without the other two, the importance of the last one is moot because there's nothing anyone can do to help you anyways.

(At least, that's what I was told. I disagree in some instances, but I'd rather my pilot be aviating, navigating rather than having a conversation with ATC)

Although, I agree in automated systems sending out some kind of an advisory... but again, as in the last incident, I was told that we didn't NEED more systems on planes to send out signals....

And, while we're discussing, we have no idea that the pilots WERE able to communicate. We have to wait for the investigation to conclude before we can say that.

1011yyz
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packsonflight
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 134):

A review:


- Pilots were trained by Lufthansa and had more than sufficient flying hours.

- Aircraft received A-Check at DUS 24 hours before the crash and flew 3 flights (DUS-MAD-DUS-BCN) before the accident. This was carried out by professionals at LH Technik (thank you mat66 for confirming this).

- Aircraft climbed to FL380 and 3 minutes later entered a steep descent (somewhat steeper but similar to a controlled emergency descent rate).

- Germanwings 9525 did NOT notify ATC of the apparent issue on board resulting in the descent (despite the standard procedure, as this appeared relatively controlled).

- Descent continued through very light clouds. (Was the weather and visibility good below cloud cover, and what was the ceiling)?

- Passed through 10,000ft. with a speed above 250 knots.

- Impacted the mountain face with no apparent deviation in heading or descent rate.

Flightglobal is saying that they reached FL380 44 minutes after takeoff which is a bit long I think, should not be much more than 30 minutes. The aircraft started decent 1 minute after reaching FL380 apparently without any change in heading

Is there any accurate report when the last ATC contact was?

Is it possible to see from FR24 data if the aircraft was flying assigned route or maintaining heading for most of the climb and the final descend?

Question for Busdrivers: Can the Bus leave altitude without flight crew input? It would leave alt automatically with partial or no engine thrust Right?
 
sharles
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 156):
FWB doesn't violate the laws of physics, if something happened with enough energy to cause a structural failure it would likely be highlighted somewhere in the speed and altitude data.

However, if my understanding is correct, in Normal law the FBW system will keep zero roll, for example, even if there is damage that causes partial loss of lift on only one side of the airplane (there should actually be a better term, because it's not the "by wire" part that is important, but the "control laws").
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 174):
Or is there a way for a pilot to hit a button on the stick that creates a hot mic / broadcast scenario for anyone to hear? Just one tap and then all problems, struggles, dialogue become public to the airwaves?
Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):

You would step on everyone else on the frequency. And besides, the push to talk button is already on the stick. The only problem these types of ideas would solve is satisfying people's curiosity, it would not help SAR or prevent the crash.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
spacecadet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:54 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
I'm talking about a 10 - 15 sec call with a few key words.

Often that amount of time is the difference between crashing and not.

For example, the Lauda Air 004 crash could have been avoided with full aileron input 2-3 seconds earlier. Ditto the Air Florida 90 crash, where full power 2-3 seconds earlier would have allowed them to fly.

I personally do not want my pilots to be "required" to make a 10-15 second emergency call when they're trying to figure out what's going wrong with their airplane.
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
One thing that has struck me about recent accidents including this one is that ATC had no indication of anything wrong - until the aircraft vanishes from radar screens.
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?
Yes - I know about the aviate, navigate, communicate rule. Yes, I appreciate crew have their hands full trying to save the flight. I'm talking about a 10 - 15 sec call with a few key words.
Obviously if pilots were incapacitated then that can't happen but surely it would help investigators focus quicker on causes of crashes involving total losses.
Just a idea, so don't flame me.

I don't see the point. It would be much better for ATC to call the emergency itself (which might have happened here, the timeline is not clear on that) : aircraft alters trajectory/altitude significantly without notice, ATC tries to contact it for 30 seconds or so, no response, alarm bells start to ring. You can always cancel the emergency if contact is resumed and a satisfactory explanation is given.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Stabilator
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):

I don't think any reasonable person will flame you for asking an honest question. In my eyes, as a private certificate holder, the "aviate, navigate, communicate" rule is fine. Those three words are ingrained into your head at a very early stage in even the most basic of flight training. Take care of the aircraft first. As to your question whether or not there should be a law mandating contact with ATC, I don't think so. Each emergency varies greatly from the other, and the pilots should use the checklists available to guide them through the situation. Earlier in the thread, someone posted the Emergency Descent checklist. You'll notice that communication with ATC is on that checklist after several procedures important to either regaining or maintaining control of the aircraft.
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Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
One thing that has struck me about recent accidents including this one is that ATC had no indication of anything wrong - until the aircraft vanishes from radar screens.
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?

The idea would only have merit if the crew thought about making a transmission to ATC, and could have, but decided they didn't want to. I find that incredibly hard to believe.

So no, it shouldn't.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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lugie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:06 pm

German news outlets are making me angry right now... "Focus.de" (relatively similar to Fox) sees some type of conspiracy within the rows of 4U as in:

Those couple of flight crews feeling mentally not able to perform flights might be "knowing more" about problems and they're covering up...
They should be fined for publishing such outright BS!

here's the article (German only) for those who want to read:
http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/cr...s-zu-verheimlichen_id_4567778.html
Q400 E175 E190 CRJ7 CRJ9 CRJX MD88 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 B733 B73G B738 B739 B748 B764 B772 B77W B788 B789
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW IAD YYZ SJO PTY
 
LH526
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:06 pm

According to frensh officials the crash site is at N44°16'49.80 E6°26'22.20 / 44.281017, 6.439434
Appears to be a really rough territory.

[Edited 2015-03-24 14:36:45]
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 173):
I would agree, but going that fast in a zone where planes are meant to fly slower is a safety hazard.

Less of a safety hazard than whatever compelled me to emergency descent. The only limits you should care about in an emergency are the limits of your aircraft.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 173):
Planes in emergency situations contact ATC about their intentions and they have traffic cleared out of their way.

ATC is not going to sit there and watch two airplane collide because one of them didn't declare an emergency. If they see someone doing something unexpected, they'll still get other traffic out of the way.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
capri
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:14 pm

After reading all of these threads, I start highly suspecting a military interception that went wrong, ie, there cld be some sort of incapacitation, but a wrong or bad decision was taken hence the fighter jets in vicinity if the farmer observations have any credibility, This could be another TWA 800 mistery in the making, we hope to find out facts sooner than later.
 
captainsimon
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:15 pm

I assume that the TCAS system would have have alerted any other commercial traffic on a collision course.

[Edited 2015-03-24 14:15:54]
 
bueb0g
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?

No. Making it law would be really stupid, a better idea would be to ingrain it more into procedures. But even then, it's pointless - let's say a crew that is crashing makes a mayday call. Does it help them? No, ATC can't do anything to help them control the aircraft. So it brings the pilots no benefit, and actually makes the job of flying harder as attention is taken away from the primary task. The only people who it benefits are us, bystanders on the ground, who get a little bit more information about the crash - information we will receive in due course from the investigation.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 178):
Flightglobal is saying that they reached FL380 44 minutes after takeoff which is a bit long I think, should not be much more than 30 minutes. The aircraft started decent 1 minute after reaching FL380 apparently without any change in heading

I think it initially cruised at a lower altitude, then climbed to 380, which explains how long it took.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 178):
Question for Busdrivers: Can the Bus leave altitude without flight crew input? It would leave alt automatically with partial or no engine thrust Right?

Pretty sure it can't. The autopilot cannot change altitude unless an altitude different to the current one is selected in the alt box on the FCU, so it is not possible without pilot input. Airbus has plans to introduce an A350 feature in the future where following a period of time with no pilot interaction and an alarm to get the pilots to respond, it initiates automatically a descent to 10,000 feet but this is not implemented in the A320. If the aircraft found itself with insufficient thrust to maintain altitude, it would maintain altitude and let the speed decay (until stall protection kicks in, which would disengage the autopilot).
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
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par13del
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 170):
AF447, if the pilot had done nothing, no crash

Nit pick, the autopilot disconnected when the speeds became unreliable, so they had to do something.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 162):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 154):
At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. By far, it was even said that he could perhaps strike. It was certainly looking for him, and he had the spot. We often have drills, planes. They make a lot of noise. Moreover, they frighten our animals.

So could the A320 have descended into a military airspace and been hit/touched by the fighter?
Quoting kl911 (Reply 162):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 154):
At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. By far, it was even said that he could perhaps strike. It was certainly looking for him, and he had the spot. We often have drills, planes. They make a lot of noise. Moreover, they frighten our animals.

So could the A320 have descended into a military airspace and been hit/touched by the fighter?

I am no one to tell.

I was sent another parasailing video. The paraglier accessing Tromas (the crash site) from the South (from 3.30)

nowwhat if the A-320 entered the cul-de-sac at low altitude or hit one of the cliffs still being at a high speed???

You can really see where they were at. The aircraft entered quite some dangerous grounds.
There was no way they would come out of there intact.

https://vimeo.com/32227267

    

[Edited 2015-03-24 14:20:46]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
IADCA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 188):
After reading all of these threads, I start highly suspecting a military interception that went wrong, ie, there cld be some sort of incapacitation, but a wrong or bad decision was taken hence the fighter jets in vicinity if the farmer observations have any credibility, This could be another TWA 800 mistery in the making, we hope to find out facts sooner than later.

I suspect whatever data is readable on the black box that has already been recovered is likely to be substantially more useful than the unverified account of a goat herder.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting MVAair (Reply 51):
The idiot media will say the plane was too old if it was built in 1990.

While going for a long walk today, I thought the (German) idiot media might make something out of the fact that the accident report will possibly be only published in French and English.   

(I'm accustomed to read French accident reports, because, well, Switzerland has several languages. The Swiss investigators don't bother about publishing a translation.)

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 153):
If I recall correctly the Helios flight flew for quite some time before running out of fuel. This flight would have had plenty of fuel to fy onwards for quite some time yet it didn't.

Running out of fuel? All the photos we've seen from the Germanwings crash site don't show lots of burns, or not large signs of fire. And somebody mentioned the lack of fire damage in high-speed impacts, though.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Independence76
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:25 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 187):
ATC is not going to sit there and watch two airplane collide because one of them didn't declare an emergency. If they see someone doing something unexpected, they'll still get other traffic out of the way.

Hence why the ATC center following the flight received a warning/alarm shortly because the crash about the large deviation in the aircraft's altitude (this was originally misinterpreted as the flight sending out a vocal distress signal). They attempted to contact the aircraft due to this discrepancy, but received no response.

The argument regarding clearing air traffic for this flight is irrelevant - contacting ATC is a CHECKLIST procedure that apparently was not followed through. The aircraft was in a stable emergency descent for nearly 8 minutes - that's more than enough time to reach the 3rd step on the QRH page or ECAM screen.


The possibilities as to why there was no contact from the aircraft are endless and we'll have to wait for more information to paint a picture.
 
jerrylee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:27 pm

Quoting lugie (Reply 185):

Not only Focus.. Spiegel, Welt and all mass medial like Bild and Express have these news. It seems that a 'Der Spiegel 'article triggered it. It is still online. There the journalists combine the refusal of several crews to fly not only with their psychological stress situation but with the state of the Airbus Mannheim to have been on the ground for several hours at DUS because of technical problems.
 
Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 195):
The argument regarding clearing air traffic for this flight is irrelevant - contacting ATC is a CHECKLIST procedure that apparently was not followed through.

The argument for clearing traffic is indeed irrelevant, but you were the one that brought it up. My point was only that one shouldn't read anything into the fact that the aircraft was exceeding 250 knots below 10,000 feet - there are a number of completely valid reasons for that to happen, and it is not indicative of nobody being in control.

As for why no call was made, we'll have to wait and see. I would suspect the answer is something other than "they didn't want to".

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 195):
contacting ATC is a CHECKLIST procedure that apparently was not followed through

It's fairly far down the checklist, though.

http://www.mediapart.fr/files/Emer_Descent.png
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:35 pm

In case it hasn't been mentioned, the 16 school children and their teacher-chaperones came from this school: Joseph-König-Gymnasiums Haltern am See. Thoughts will all of them and that community today.
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