Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:37 pm

Facts and Questions :

1/- FACTS :

1.1/- Flight had reached FL380, normal cruising altiutude for the route / type.

1.2/- Three minutes later it commenced a ~~ 3000 ft/min descent, with no course alteration

1.3/- From FR24 data, airspeed was fairly constant considering wind and temperature variations.

1.4/- A ground speed decay below ~25000 ft is consistent with a high Mach / IAS schedule.

1.5/- The flight impacted the southern face of the Mt du Galèbre, at the end of a cul-de-sac called Vallon du Galèbre, without having ever deviated from the route course.

1.6/- During the descent event, no 7700 squawk, no Mayday and the crew never responded to several ATC calls ( the ATC is at Aix en Provence, very close to the crash site).
The ATCO in charge of the flight was quite on the ball : asked the neighbouring aircraft to help locate the flight and triggered the DETRESFA very quickly.A Mirage 2000 from Orange AB was quickly on the area but didn't see anything.

Note : a 3000 to 3500 ft/min descent is not *normal OPS* but very far from what an emergency descent can achieve.

1.7/- The aircraft was *pulverised* ( there is no more accurate description)

1.8/- One *blackbox* has already been recovered. Conflicting reports don't allow to confirm which one.

2/-QUESTIONS

2.1/- They mostly are about the crew :

2.1.1/- Why the descent ?

2.1.2/- Why no maneuver to get out of the airway ( normal procedure in case of any deviation from the flight plan in the vertical plane) ? Especially when the trajectory leads into high terrain ?

2.1.3/- Why no attempt to notify the ATC about an emergency ?

2.2/- There are now some questions about the events around the flight :

2.2.1/- Where are the release documents : loadsheet and cargo manifest ?

2.2.2/- The aircraft is ACARS-equipped : Both GermanWings and LuftHansa must have received tech messages indicating any problems on the flight... or not ?

That's all I can think of, now.
Obviously, I will not offer any speculation or point my finger at anyone.
Respect for the deceased and their loved ones.
Contrail designer
 
CptHaddock
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:37 pm

About the presence of a french fighter in the neighborhood: french media have been reporting that the traffic controller realized at 10:30 AM that the crew had stopped communicating with him and was not reacting to his radio messages. At the same time, one of his colleagues remarked that the plane was losing altitude and didn't follow the expected flight path. The traffic controller officer then immediately declared an emergency. According to the procedure, a jet fighter of Armée de l'air was scrambled and sent on a search mission to make contact with the plane and evaluate the situation. An helicopter of the french gendarmerie was also immediately sent in the zone. This is perfectly in line with the procedures followed in such a situation.

Source: see post at 18:20 on le Figaro: http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualites/20...elonnette-barcelone-dusseldorf.php
 
Independence76
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:59 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 197):
The argument for clearing traffic is indeed irrelevant, but you were the one that brought it up. My point was only that one shouldn't read anything into the fact that the aircraft was exceeding 250 knots below 10,000 feet - there are a number of completely valid reasons for that to happen, and it is not indicative of nobody being in control.

Clearing of traffic is a response by ATC when given an emergency descent situation (hence why I mentioned it). It's one of the multiple reasons pilots are required to contact controllers about their situation when deviating from their flight plan. My point: contacting ATC in that situation is for a variety of purposes in the name of general safety. The speed at which they were flying was a factor in compromising safety of other traffic (if any were in the vicinity).

The speed and altitude paint a picture of an emergency descent with a priority level of assistance, but none was requested despite a checklist requirement to do so.
 
CO 757-300
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2001 7:08 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:40 pm

Could a structural failure such as a windshield break cause enough drag to result in a decent such as this? meanwhile the auto throttle maxed up thrust to avoid a stall and the pilots (and possibly those in back) are incapacitated by both impact of rushing air and depressurization?
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:41 pm

Is the aircraft old ?

Anyone an idea of how many cycles it had done?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2216
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:44 pm

I don't know if this have been mentioned already but Swedish television says (ferring to Der Spiegel)
that the aircraft in question had a problem with the noose wheel door yesterday but that
it was fixed this (Tuesday) morning.

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/ol...-hade-tekniska-problem-dagen-innan
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...rt-verweigern-start-a-1025378.html

I don't know but even if there was a problem with it, it wouldn't crash a plane in just a few minutes would it?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 204):
Is the aircraft old ?

Anyone an idea of how many cycles it had done?
http://www.airbus.com/crisis/

" The aircraft had accumulated approximately 58,300 flight hours in some 46,700 flights"

[Edited 2015-03-24 14:45:43]
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 204):
Is the aircraft old ?

Anyone an idea of how many cycles it had done?
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20150324-0
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 191):
Nit pick, the autopilot disconnected when the speeds became unreliable, so they had to do something.

and they did ... the AF447 crew pulled back on the stick until they stalled.

Remember, though ... 447 came down at something like 10k/min ... it was pretty much freefalling.

the 9-10 minute length of this descent likely means it wasn't stalled, it was at least under some measure of control.

and the absolute dead-on accuracy of the flight path (straight as an arrow) would tend to support that.
 
Okie
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 200):
2.2.2/- The aircraft is ACARS-equipped : Both GermanWings and LuftHansa must have received tech messages indicating any problems on the flight... or not ?

Not sure what is automatically transmitted on the ACARS but I would assume a loss of pressurization would be but I do not know.

Okie
 
tcfc424
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:50 pm

Just speculating here...could they have encountered some sort of pressurization issue that rendered the pilot's oxygen supply unusable? I have no idea where the oxygen supply is located on an A320, but I would think that it could be compromised depending on its location...
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 208):
Not sure what is automatically transmitted on the ACARS but I would assume a loss of pressurization would be but I do not know.

If it's as well equipped as AF447 was, it sends out a vastly larger amount of info than is displayed in the cockpit ... stuff the crew would not even know about gets transmitted.

Presuming the same level of instrumentation, there could be some very good information there.

When AF447's flight recorder was recovered and read out, it was found the ACARS messages matched almost exactly the parameters recorded, in the final scenario.
 
cat3appr50
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:51 pm

From FR24 Lat/Long coordinates at start of emergency descent GWI 18G was around 27 NM from Marseille/LFML airport, 75 NM from Nice/LFMN airport, and 20 NM from Toulon Hyeres/LFTH airport. Assuming an A320 glide ratio (if in worst case lost both engines and were attempting restarts) of 15:1, the A320 would have been theoretically able (from FL 380 to 7000 ft-the last reported altitude) to reach an emergency airport around 76 NM away, and if a glide ratio of 17:1 would have been able to reach an emergency airport around 86 NM away. All of the noted suitable airports for an A320 landing would have been reachable in an emergency even via a glide with (the worst case of) all engines not running.

The big question IMO is why the pilots apparently couldn’t/didn’t make an immediate turn back towards the Mediterranean and then start on emergency descent to one of the three noted (essentially sea level) airports. To continue on a flight path toward the French Alps, already in an emergency descent, where options for emergency landing are essentially nil, is very strange and IMO not expected. Even in the case of an explosive decompression, one would think that an immediate turn toward the Mediterannean and not continuing forward to the French Alps would have also been expected. Of couse this is all assuming that their aircraft had the capacity to turn/change heading after whatever happened one minute after attaining CRZ flight level (FL380).
 
CptHaddock
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:52 pm

The flight path being straight as an arrow doesn't mean it was dead-on accurate. According to Le Monde, it is one of the factors that decided the Traffic Control engineer to declare an emergency procedure: no radio contact + loosing altitude + inaccurate flight path.

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article...0-de-germanwings_4600313_3214.html
 
BooDog
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:53 pm

I've always figured there would be a crash bad enough that the black boxes would be vaporized along with the rest of the aircraft. Apparently not. If this accident didn't destroy them, no accident probably can.
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
mach4
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:04 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:54 pm

It seems there is a consensus that there was no heading change, however the following data indicates otherwise. Is it incorrect? From this data a heading change happens immediately before the descent.

 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:55 pm

hopefully fault codes were transmitted before the crash otherwise all the data will be in the Flight Data recorder.
The A320 is not an airplane to go down without a fight. I just hope we can learn something from this since the monitored systems could tell us the story and possibly keep this from happening again.
Whatever it was it had to be catastrophic to sever the control systems where even direct law flying was too much for the airplane.
I work this airplane for a living and I always wonder about scenarios like this where the Entire EFCS fails.
 
Okie
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting BooDog (Reply 213):
I've always figured there would be a crash bad enough that the black boxes would be vaporized along with the rest of the aircraft. Apparently not. If this accident didn't destroy them, no accident probably can.

I believe the recorders are designed for 3,400g's.


Okie
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:04 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 186):
According to French officials the crash site is at N44°16'49.80 E6°26'22.20 / 44.281017, 6.439434
Appears to be a really rough territory.

Thanks for that. That is about 3.5 kilometers almost dead east of Le Vernet as the crow flies.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:04 pm

Quoting mach4 (Reply 214):
It seems there is a consensus that there was no heading change, however the following data indicates otherwise. Is it incorrect? From this data a heading change happens immediately before the descent.

Those vary by one to one and a half degree... due to wind and light turbulence.
Not anything else, IMO.
Contrail designer
 
namezero111111
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting BooDog (Reply 213):

They only ever found one recorder from ElAl 1862 despite extensive search.
Maybe it wasn't obliterated, but rendered completely unrecognizable among a heap of rubble.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:11 pm

Not sure what to think of this report...

Germanwings A320 plane crash: 'Explosion and smoke' before Airbus plunged into French Alps

Witnesses told the French Air Force they heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the doomed Germanwings' A320 passenger plane shortly before it crashed into the mountains near Digne, southern France, IBTimes UK can reveal.

A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, told IBTimes UK witnesses in the crash investigation told him "they had heard an explosion and seen smoke".

-50%

read more here:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germanwings...s-plunged-into-french-alps-1493351

 Wow!     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
flyzapper
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:56 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 218):
Those vary by one to one and a half degree... due to wind and light turbulence.
Not anything else, IMO.

What about the change from a heading of ~44 to ~26 as soon as the plane started descending? Is that consistent with a planned route?

[Edited 2015-03-24 15:12:18]

[Edited 2015-03-24 15:18:58]
 
Gatorman96
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 172):
Now - I don't want to inflame my fellow a-netters by saying this, but should it be made aviation law that at least one mayday call to ATC with SOME, even brief, info as to what the emergency is about be compulsory ?

Always a valid question, but what would contacting ATC accomplish? Sure it could aid in the investigation, but wouldn't you rather the pilot/FO spend those few seconds identifying/rectifying the problem instead of contacting ATC? Think of it this way; If you blew a tire on the highway and you were trying to maintain control, would would call the police/EMS during that time? I doubt it
 
mach4
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:04 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:15 pm

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 219):

Those vary by one to one and a half degree... due to wind and light turbulence.
Not anything else, IMO.

Huh? I'm reading it as ~43 degrees heading at 38000 feet cruise and then a turn starts (coinciding with a -14400 vertical speed anomaly), then the turn completes at heading 26 degrees and immediately with that the descent starts.
 
s5daw
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:15 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:20 pm

If it were hypoxia, would they still be unconscious once they flew under say FL010?

My whole family is flying A320 later this year and I'll admit, I don't like the recent pattern of Airbus crashes. Don't give me the long term numbers. What you need to consider is safety record of each specific software revision on board. Yes, the airplane might be ok, but is the software? It's impossible to test in each and every situation. I'm saying this as an IT pro.
 
SASDC8
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:01 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting flyzapper (Reply 221):
What about the change from a heading of ~26 to ~44 as soon as the plane leveled off? Is that consistent with a planned route?

It did the same flight path the las couple of days so yes I think that is normal.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 220):
Witnesses told the French Air Force they heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the doomed Germanwings' A320 passenger plane shortly before it crashed into the mountains near Digne, southern France, IBTimes UK can reveal.

Eyevitness reports are utterly useless nowadays, and is only useful for the sensationlist media...
2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
 
lastrow
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:22 pm

I am sorry in case of accidentally repeating it, but apparently nobody has posted it before:

There was an incident in a similar situation with LH1829 last year in November (on 5th of November!)

http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074

-> wrong sensor info, frozen AOA probes
-> flight computer initiated a descent at 4000ft/min
-> crew realized it and switched the flight computer off.
 
ranold76
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:41 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 209):

Even if there was a pressurization issue, you would think the aircraft would have climbed and maintained altitude, not to mention that it should have proceeded along the legs of the F-PLAN or along the HDG selected etc.
 
Sandsofly
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 222):


Is this because if you are descending you could possibly descend into another plane so you need to alert ATC if possible? Or if you couldn't communicate you'd try to get on a path less traveled so to speak. Based on what I'm reading, the descent speed was not an emergency descent because that would be slower than this. Is that correct? Yet it wasn't hurling towards earth at a speed that suggested no one was in control? That might be to general. Trying to understand.

For years now, when I really want to understand what's going on I wait for Pihero to appear. You've come in sooner than I expected so thank you!
 
Luftfahrer
Posts: 966
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:27 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting lastrow (Reply 226):
I am sorry in case of accidentally repeating it, but apparently nobody has posted it before:

It was mentioned on the press conference this afternoon that the sensors had been replaced on this aircraft.
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
CptHaddock
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting mach4 (Reply 223):
Huh? I'm reading it as ~43 degrees heading at 38000 feet cruise and then a turn starts (coinciding with a -14400 vertical speed anomaly), then the turn completes at heading 26 degrees and immediately with that the descent starts.

I read it the same way. Seems the descent starts from the moment they're turning near Toulon.
 
User avatar
Miami
Posts: 6253
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:31 pm

Here's a pic that shows the registration.

Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
LandSweetLand
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:47 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:31 pm

 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting ranold76 (Reply 227):
Even if there was a pressurization issue, you would think the aircraft would have climbed and maintained altitude, not to mention that it should have proceeded along the legs of the F-PLAN or along the HDG selected etc.

The assumption is that the crew initiated a descent. And it appears that the aircraft did continue along the flightplan.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
penguins
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:52 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:39 pm

This crash reminds me a bit of the Helios flight where the German captain never turned on the oxygen.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3320
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 14):
I'm not saying you're wrong, Phil, but why can't they continue searching at night? Most police, military, and Coast Guard helicopters have spolights for this specific purpose:

No real point, we have all seen these rescue people go into crash scenes in conditions worse than this, those people are insanely brave, but after seeing the pictures of the crash site, to put it coldly, there is no point in them risking their lives.

Quoting javierglez (Reply 69):
As a small Airbus shareholder with +20.000€ worth of stock I think I'm entitled to say that better pitot freezings and subsequent algorythm troubles had nothing to do with plummeting descent this time.

Hmmm, I am guessing maybe English is your second language, but being a shareholder in any company gives you zero rights to determine anything technical.
 
lastrow
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 235):
Quoting javierglez (Reply 69):
As a small Airbus shareholder with +20.000€ worth of stock I think I'm entitled to say that better pitot freezings and subsequent algorythm troubles had nothing to do with plummeting descent this time.

Hmmm, I am guessing maybe English is your second language, but being a shareholder in any company gives you zero rights to determine anything technical.

does anyone know if the AOA propbe is a pitot tube or a fin on the A320? it could look like this: http://www.airteamimages.com/airbus-...o-visible-titles_110034_large.html

[Edited 2015-03-24 15:56:06]
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:54 pm

Quoting flyzapper (Reply 221):
What about the change from a heading of ~44 to ~26 as soon as the plane started descending? Is that consistent with a planned route?

Yes it is :

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 225):
It did the same flight path the last couple of days so yes I think that is normal.
I will try to post an airway chart soon ( not easy to find without infringing proprietary documents.

Quoting mach4 (Reply 223):
Huh? I'm reading it as ~43 degrees heading at 38000 feet cruise and then a turn starts (coinciding with a -14400 vertical speed anomaly), then the turn completes at heading 26 degrees and immediately with that the descent starts.
Quoting CptHaddock (Reply 230):
read it the same way. Seems the descent starts from the moment they're turning near Toulon.

Stop trying the sensational : Look at the altitude : Constant and strictly maintaining 38000 ft ; If the 14,400 ft/min was a true data report, that's 240 ft /s and would have shown on the read out. So disregard it : that value is not consistent either with the altitude or the ground speed.
As a matter of fact, the descent started at the earliest on point 27, but more likely 20 seconds or so later, between points 26 and 25 ( VS going from -128 ft to -1900 or so).

Quoting sandsofly (Reply 228):
You've come in sooner than I expected so thank you!

And thank you, too.
This accident is different from most of the previous ones : we have facts and I know the crash area very well and I'm tryting to keep the thread in perspective.
There are, though, many questions as "Why the descent ?" and my knowledge of the aircraft doesn't give me any reasonable answers.
Hopefully, as it seems that the CVR is the box that has been recovered, we should have a few announcements very soon.

[Edited 2015-03-24 15:56:46]
Contrail designer
 
michi
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:18 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:56 pm

Quoting lastrow (Reply 236):
does anyone know if the AOA propbe is pitot tube or a fin?

It is a rosemount probe.

http://www.zaviation.ca/products/sesame/tat%20covers.htm
 
Gatorman96
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting sandsofly (Reply 228):

Is this because if you are descending you could possibly descend into another plane so you need to alert ATC if possible? Or if you couldn't communicate you'd try to get on a path less traveled so to speak. Based on what I'm reading, the descent speed was not an emergency descent because that would be slower than this. Is that correct? Yet it wasn't hurling towards earth at a speed that suggested no one was in control? That might be to general. Trying to understand.

For years now, when I really want to understand what's going on I wait for Pihero to appear. You've come in sooner than I expected so thank you!

I am by no means a professional so please wait for Pihero's input on the subject! That being said, I believe too much emphasis is being placed on the flight crew's lack of communication with ATC. Could it mean that the crew was incapacitated? Sure, but it most likely means they were very busy trying to regain control of the plane/figure out how to fix the problem.
 
Rivet42
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting mach4 (Reply 223):
Huh? I'm reading it as ~43 degrees heading at 38000 feet cruise and then a turn starts (coinciding with a -14400 vertical speed anomaly), then the turn completes at heading 26 degrees and immediately with that the descent starts.

You have rather misrepresented the data by sorting in reverse - i.e. line 1 is the most recent reading based on the timestamp. If you sorted it by timestamp, it would be much more evident what you are trying to illustrate.

Either way, the -14,400 anomaly may actually be more interesting than the rest of the data altogether; note there is no obvious change in altitude immediately following that anomaly, until the steady descent begins... Is it possible that this short sharp vertical acceleration followed by a turn to the left actually indicates the (catastrophic) event, failure, depressurisation, whatever, that caused the descent and ultimately ground impact?

Riv'

Correction: it seems the vertical speed anomaly occurred just as the left turn commenced. at the end of which the descent began. Intriguing.

[Edited 2015-03-24 16:12:04]
I travel, therefore I am.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26140
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 200):
That's all I can think of, now.

Given the descent was a long one (9-10 minutes) and passed over many cell towers I wonder if any of the unfortunate pax or crew were able to transmit any text messages that might help us understand what was happening? Or if the a/c had wireless internet, maybe that was attempted? I imagine if I was one of the unfortunates I would be doing something like that. Sorry if this message sounds insensitive, but I think that is what I'd be trying to do. Of course I'd be communicating a lot of personal stuff too, but if there was any obvious problem like a fire or a structural failure I think I would have been trying to communicate that too.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14275
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:07 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 191):
Nit pick, the autopilot disconnected when the speeds became unreliable, so they had to do something.

It didn't just disconnect, the airplane went into Alternate Law 2. Still, not doing anything should have worked fine.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 194):
Running out of fuel? All the photos we've seen from the Germanwings crash site don't show lots of burns, or not large signs of fire. And somebody mentioned the lack of fire damage in high-speed impacts, though.

I believe most of the fuel must have vaporized. "Indirect" witnesses skiing nearby reported a strong diesel fuel odor.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:10 pm

The aircraft would descend to MEA or MSA in a depressurisation scenario, not any lower which still provides adequate oxygen and obstacle clearance. Could it be a possible ALT HOLD engagement failure with pilots workload resulting in failure to notice terrain proximity?
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
AS512
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:46 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 209):
Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 209):
Just speculating here...could they have encountered some sort of pressurization issue that rendered the pilot's oxygen supply unusable? I have no idea where the oxygen supply is located on an A320, but I would think that it could be compromised depending on its location...
Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 209):

So, lets say the nose gear door that caused the plane to go tech previously, was an issue and comes off in flight (for whatever reason) and punctures the fuselage where the crew O2 bottles are housed, (left side of the fuselage, correct me if I'm wrong) and renders them unusable while creating an explosive decompression event at the same time.
Could all that cause enough drag on the frame to bring the nose down and cause the decent all while the pilots are without oxygen and are unable to correct the flight path at all?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 155):
An emergency descent is more in the 5000 feet/minute ballpark and wouldn't trigger the protection. The protection also allows crazy banks and steep climbs (I'll never forget the take-off of the demo A346 at the Paris Air Show in 2005, crazy !).

Depending on the aircraft an emergency descent can be even much quicker (DC-8 with thrust reversers, more than 10000 feet/minute !).

Thank you Aesma, much appreciated!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:18 pm

Quoting AS512 (Reply 244):
So, lets say the nose gear door that caused the plane to go tech previously, was an issue and comes off in flight (for whatever reason) and punctures the fuselage where the crew O2 bottles are housed, (left side of the fuselage, correct me if I'm wrong) and renders them unusable while creating an explosive decompression event at the same time.

I'd be hard pressed to think of a scenario where a gear door coming off in flight could penetrate the pressure vessel and cause decompression.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
n797mx
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:40 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 92):
Hypoxia makes your mind a little loopy. But if you are conscious enough to come up with a game plan what to do, that game plan will include getting your mask on.

@38,000ft you have about 20 seconds of useful consciousness if their was an abrupt blow out, most of which you'd probably spend panicking. If it was a slow leak you probably wouldn't even know since you'd be euphoric. I did a ground chamber at 25,000 and I didn't even notice how gone I was until they gave me the oxygen mask.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
lastrow
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting michi (Reply 238):
Quoting lastrow (Reply 236):
does anyone know if the AOA propbe is pitot tube or a fin?

It is a rosemount probe.

http://www.zaviation.ca/products/sesame/tat%20covers.htm

thanks, but your link refers to a temperature probe (actually it refers to covers for this) - is this the wrong link perhaps?
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS! Part 3

Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:40 pm

I am wondering about the exact mechanics of collision with the mountain. Clearly, based on the wreckage there has been some speed. But the parts have been spread around, can be seen in several different couloirs on the mountain face. Some bigger number of parts at the bottom part of those couloirs. What happened here, and how can the parts separate in this manner, with no clear centre point or direction. Did it hit higher, and then the wreckage that we see has fallen down from a rock face? Or did it hit multiple times, destroying different parts of the aircraft as it hit? Or did it crash somewhere in the area seen in the videos, explode, and the parts rained around?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos