The voice recorder is with the BEA in Paris, if there are any leaks they will most likely be in the French press, not the Finnish, Danish or Austrian press...

But the best course of action would be to just wait for their press conference at 16:00...

the time of useful consciousness is around 20-30s, by then you need to put on your oxygen mask. Although I hate to speculate the only way how what was described "as per anonymous sources" makes sense, is if the windshield was completely shattered and the pilots had 400kt wind in their faces, making it impossible to grab the mask or reach controls or anything useful in that situation......

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 47): If so - and please excuse this speculation, I am just asking - wouldn't the SOP be "mask first, autopilot later"?

It is.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 50): Besides that, I have never heard of an emergency landing system....

Yes, there is no such thing.

Quoting highflier92660 (Reply 49): I realize this is premature, but if this A320 experienced catastrophic de-compression a thousand feet from its maximum certified altitude, there is going to be some major re-evaluation of the A320 airframe design life and the 60,000 cycle extension program.

Uh, you had it before the first comma - thats completely premature.

You basically assume that any catastrophic de-compression is due to an inherent airframe issue and not damage, incorrect maintenance or a badly manufactured part.

How is it the fault of the airframe design, the life extension program, or the airframer if a cockpit window failed due to an issue in the manufacturing process?

Quoting holzmann (Reply 41): It was fast. Meaning, the pilots had enough time to select the emergency landing feature and then there was nothing more to be heard.

It's been a few years since I've flown the 320, but the "emergency landing feature" is a new one on me. I'd like to know where I can get one of those systems!!!!

BEA press conference at 4pm today

BEA press conference

Media says they will release information "some" information from the CVR, not sure if about the content or the physical state of it (if damaged).

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 48): Is the access to this door through the nose wheel well? I wonder if rapid decompression in the EE bay would result in loss of some systems (lack of distress call)? Then the possibility of the departing door or the wheel well door could cause damage to other structures or engine ingestion?

unlikely IMHO because this door would have been missing or open at least since the take off of the aircraft. I suggest a disintegrating and then missing door can be detected even without sensors during flight:

1. door keeps open -> you will notice it, high fuel, more noise, non standard operating characteristics (altitude, airspeed, fuel burn)
2. door was ripped off at acceleration and thus higher air drag -> guess you would hear it? if that door impacts some part of the fuselage, you will hear it too. your have also drag penalties at the front door area (If I remember right it was about the front LG?)

Since the aircraft was en route for some time, not likely, but I stand corrected if I missed something.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 30): Some of theories here appear to come from those in Hollywood that write scripts for things happening in airliners that can't or would never happen. The far fetched and implausibility of most of the scenarios here are a huge disservice. If you have ZERO knowledge of airplane systems then perhaps any speculation on your part is best kept to yourself.

Especially since they get picked up and repeated by the Daily Mail and other garbage news sources. A little respect for the families of the deceased crew and passengers is in order.

I just saw this from Part 4

Quote: @airliners_net: Sad news from the tragedy of 4U Flight 9525; photographer Maik Korolczuk was one of the 150 victims. Our thoughts... http://t.co/0nc4HCgakt

This is horrible. RIP

Does anybody know where CNN's Richard Quest gets his 'credentials?' Honestly, how some of these people get on tv is baffling. Doesn't anybody at the network realize that just because you bring the same guy in every time there is a plane crash - English accent or not - does not mean he is qualified to speak about the incident with any intelligence? Ratings > Credibility, I guess.

That's why I come on a.net, at least after weeding through the mire of wild or implausible speculation. However, if we waited solely for official information, this thread would only be about 10 posts long.

Given that we don't know a whole lot, not too many causes can be ruled out. The CVR is sure to provide some clues, if it works (has anybody seen a more beaten-up looking box than that one?) What a violent impact it must have been. As somebody else pointed out, and I am not making too much a big deal of this, but there does not appear to be much in the way of a post-impact fire. Is that possibly a clue, or is this likely due to the cataclysmic smash basically vaporizing the fuel in one quick explosion?

Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but the one or two minutes before the aircraft started its somewhat uniform descent is going to be critical. What initiated this? I am hypothesizing that the autopilot was set to a -3500ft/min rate, and in that crucial minute or two, something happened that incapacitated the crew yet somehow knocked the AP into begin its descent. Or maybe one of the last actions of the pilots was to begin the autopilot descent but not be able to carry out any further actions that might have saved the aircraft. The steep (but not emergency steep) and steady descent is one piece of a puzzle that will slowly begin to take shape as more clues are provided. If it was not for the enormous amount of human suffering (both pre- and post-crash), the analysis of crashes can be quite interesting.

Quoting hofimax (Reply 36): this is a pure digital sound file , the evaluation would last about half an hour .

That alone should tell you that the source is bunk. Evaluation of a CVR takes far, far longer than 30 minutes. It would take longer than 30 minutes just to give it a cursory listen. Then every single word has to be parsed and transcribed, and every single background sound identified. It usually takes weeks even for the best quality sound file.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 56): BEA press conference at 4pm today BEA press conference Media says they will release information "some" information from the CVR, not sure if about the content or the physical state of it (if damaged).

From Twitter, to be taken with caution....

French investigators tell NYT that #germanwings 2d black box found, but severely damaged; memory chip dislodged and missing

https://twitter.com/DanBilefsky/status/580731995183030272

edited:

AirLive.net ‏@airlivenet 5m5 minutes ago

BREAKING #Germanwings #4U9525 Second black box found, but severely damaged; memory chip dislodged and missing.


       

[Edited 2015-03-25 07:17:26]

Airlive reports that the FDR has been found, but is "severely damaged", with the memory chip "dislodged and missing".

https://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/580732959193473024

Guardian: The second black box has been found severely damaged, according to the aviation site AirLive.net: Second black box found, but severely damaged; memory chip dislodged and missing.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9): Plenty of unfounded rumours, rampant speculation and the usual sprinkling of conspiracy theories, however (high-quality posts from the usual contributors notwithstanding).

In any situation like this, there are suddenly dozens - or more - "experts" on A.net, who devise their own unsubstantiated theories and jump to improbable conclusions. Meanwhile, most of the credible contributors have gone away, discouraged (or disgusted) by the rampant lack of substantive information here.

Of course, when the facts come out, none of these self-proclaimed "experts" are anywhere to be found... they just disappear, lurking until the next such incident gives them an opportunity to try to grab their 15 minutes of (self-satisfying) fame.

It is pitiful.

Quoting mmo (Reply 55): It's been a few years since I've flown the 320, but the "emergency landing feature" is a new one on me. I'd like to know where I can get one of those systems!!!!

I believe that this is serious matter, but for another thread, in better times of course.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 1): 1. Front windscreen fails, perhaps even breaks. 2. Damaged glass incapacitates one or both pilots.

Physically virtually impossible - overpressure in the cabin would cause a disintegrating wind shield to blast outwards at speeds much greater than that of the aircraft, winds in that altitude and gravity would have spread the debris everywhere before the plane could catch a few pieces of it.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 3): Try holding your breath for 30 seconds, see if you die.

But you have normal pressure air in your lungs with enough oxygen in it to maintain gas exchange... After explosive decompression with such pressure differential the'd be much less air. Time of useful conciousness is about 12 seconds I beleive...

The French Ministry of the Interior have published official pictures of the crash site

Moyens mobilisés sur la zone du crash de l'A320 de la Compagnie Germanwings
Ministère de l'Intérieur - SIrpa Gendarmerie - F.Balsamo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ministere_interieur/16924888782/

 

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.gwi18g/mediatheque.php

Now with photos of the CVR.

This is damaged, but the container holding the memory chips seems to be intact.


David

[Edited 2015-03-25 07:25:05]

How are the windows fitted, from the outside or from the inside on that particular aircraft?

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 48): If so - and please excuse this speculation, I am just asking - wouldn't the SOP be "mask first, autopilot later"?

1. mask
2. communication between pilots
3. PF - ALT - PULL, down, blo 10000 or as terrain allows
4. PF - HDG - PULL, off airway
5. PF - SPEED - PULL, maintain

I am going to rule out any type of decompression as the plane seemed to fly itself into the ground. Sounds way more like an Iced AoA sensors. Same thing that happened to an LH a321 last year I think it was.

Quoting richierich (Reply 60): Does anybody know where CNN's Richard Quest gets his 'credentials?'

For that matter, where do any of the aviation experts that we see these days get their credentials from?
I only saw one exception yesterday, where a university professor for aviation law was interviewed who actually knew his stuff and refused to be dragged into speculation about the crash and about how Lufthansa, A320s or flying in general were now unsafe ("Well, look at it this way - 1000 casualties worldwide mean a bad year for aviation; 4000 casualties in Germany alone are considered a good year for road traffic."). You could see this really wasn't what the host - Ulrich Meyer, notoriously sensationalist - wanted to hear.
Which of course means that next time, we're likely to see an "expert" interviewed who's a bit more sensationalist and willing to speculate.

The French environment minister, Segolene Royal was guest at RMC radio station, where she said that the time between 10.30 and 10.31 am would have been crucial in this tragedy, according to the air traffic controlelrs who have now given their log of events.

At 10.30 the plane was at 11400 meters. There was communication between ATC and pilots: ATC told aircraft to maintain flight level. Pilot confirmed. One minute later as the plane started to descend "without authorisation" ATC tried to contact the plane again, but there was no reply. At 10.35 ATC gave a warning.

At 10.40 the plane was at 2000 meters altitude. At 10.49 helicopeters were deployed.

Report (in French)
http://rmc.bfmtv.com/emission/crash-...-n-est-pas-privilegiee-871419.html

I will ask again; why is aviation still in the 1950's when it comes to storing CVR and FDR data seperately? Why is the data not recorded to BOTH recorders so there is redundancy?

Quoting breiz (Reply 23): There is the infamous incident of a Captain being partly sucked out from the cockpit because a wrongly fitted winshield glass failed.

That was on a BAC 111. The glass was fitted correctly, but the wrong screws were used to hold it in place.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 76): I will ask again; why is aviation still in the 1950's when it comes to storing CVR and FDR data seperately? Why is the data not recorded to BOTH recorders so there is redundancy?

I never heared of a Recorder that was found, but data could not be recovered. Also here it Looks like the system has proven to work. Maybe we really will know more in an hour.

Quoting lastrow (Reply 57): unlikely IMHO ...

and adding that there are sensors for doors not closed etc.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 74): ("Well, look at it this way - 1000 casualties worldwide mean a bad year for aviation; 4000 casualties in Germany alone are considered a good year for road traffic.").

well, While I agree with your that flight safety is subject to FUD in some media, I would say that this comparison is not entirely appropriate, because Germany could accumulate more passenger car hours per year than the world with global passenger plane hours.  

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 73): I am going to rule out any type of decompression as the plane seemed to fly itself into the ground. Sounds way more like an Iced AoA sensors. Same thing that happened to an LH a321 last year I think it was.

see reply 226 of part 3 of this thread: http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074

[Edited 2015-03-25 07:53:17]

Quoting mila (Reply 71): How are the windows fitted, from the outside or from the inside on that particular aircraft?

Passenger Windows are fitted from the inside AFAIK. It's the differential pressure that seals the windows. The cockpit windows are fastened with screws, and the wrong screws have once led to that famous accident where the Captain was (half) sucked out of the window. This would not have happened if cockpit windows were fitted from the inside - but one such window pane weighs in excess of 50 or 70 kilograms. Difficult to handle inside a cockpit.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 76): I will ask again; why is aviation still in the 1950's when it comes to storing CVR and FDR data seperately? Why is the data not recorded to BOTH recorders so there is redundancy?

Standards. 

The redundancy could be achieved even better by two CVR and two FDR, and the next 10 or 20 years will possibly see the use of detachable recorders that can float on water. Anyway, we now have chips that survive quite an amount of heat and an acceleration of 3400 g. There are even artillery shells with working electronics on board that have been tested by the US Army or DARPA.


David

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 73): I am going to rule out any type of decompression as the plane seemed to fly itself into the ground. Sounds way more like an Iced AoA sensors. Same thing that happened to an LH a321 last year I think it was.

Except that Germanwings already said yesterday during their first press conference that the crashed A320 had a computer fix for that very issue. Also, it was a widely reported issue that was - including its remedy - surely circulated within LH Group.

So your hypothesis assumes that
a) Something that has so far only been observed once (as far as we know) in ~27 years of A32S operations suddenly happens twice in the space of six months, with the same operator, too.
b) The pilots of the crashed flight hadn't heard about it (and about its fix), despite it being a high-profile and serious occurrence.
c) The computer fix didn't work.

Not exactly impossible, for sure, but, knowing what we know so far, not the likeliest scenario, either.

It looks like Pres. Hollande, Ch. Merkel and PM Rajoy are about to make official declarations at the village

A stage is set with stands and flags.

Live feed on top of page (link FranceTVinfo)

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-div...cherches-est-imminente_858171.html

BEA press conference to start in 15 minutes.
Does anyone have a direct link to the presser?

 

Posted in the previous thread......
Known nationalities of the casualties, according to Germanwings press conference:

Germany 72
Spain 35
Australia 2
Argentina 2
Iran 2
Venezuela 2
US 2
UK 1
Netherlands 1
Colombia 1
Mexico 1
Japan 1
Israel 1
Denmark 1
Belgium 1


My comment: It is very interesting that there was an official comment on a lot of Turkish on board yet not one single passport.
This total only adds up to 125 what are the other 25 nationalities.
May they all rest in PEACE!

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 80): There are even artillery shells with working electronics on board that have been tested by the US Army or DARPA.

SmArt 155 for example. 2 intelligent submunitions with lots of electronics. Quite typical that the best innovations always seem to come from products which are designed to kill people.

Quoting richierich (Reply 60): Does anybody know where CNN's Richard Quest gets his 'credentials?' Honestly, how some of these people get on tv is baffling.

"Gosh we don't have enough information yet to draw any conclusions" will not get them paid. Yes, they have prostituted themselves to the media, but that's their choice. Take what they say for what it's worth.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21): I am pretty sure that trying to hold your breath for 30 seconds or however long in the comfort of your living room at sea level would not be the same as trying to hold your breath under the above mentioned conditions...

Agree.
Focussing on the pressure differential completely ignores the reality of trying to breathe into a 400kt -50degC wind.
It's difficult to imagine the effect that would have on a person's lungs.
It's not hard to imagine it being "terminal"

Quoting highflier92660 (Reply 49): I realize this is premature

Yep. it is indeed premature

Rgds

BEA press conference delayed to 16:30.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 80): Passenger Windows are fitted from the inside AFAIK. It's the differential pressure that seals the windows. The cockpit windows are fastened with screws, and the wrong screws have once led to that famous accident where the Captain was (half) sucked out of the window. This would not have happened if cockpit windows were fitted from the inside - but one such window pane weighs in excess of 50 or 70 kilograms. Difficult to handle inside a cockpit.

There are a few aircraft with cockpit windows fitted from the outside, The BAC 111 and the Tristar are two.
But most airliners, including the A320 , have all windows fitted from the inside. yes they are hard to handle and changing one takes time.
Passenger windows are also fitted from the inside and clipped in place.

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 73): I am going to rule out any type of decompression as the plane seemed to fly itself into the ground. Sounds way more like an Iced AoA sensors. Same thing that happened to an LH a321 last year I think it was.

please stop the BS! What makes you an authority to rule out decopression?

The famous "near crash" A321 incident actually happened like this:
About 15 minutes after takeoff, LH1829 was climbing through FL310 "when the aircraft on autopilot unexpectedly lowered the nose and entered a descent reaching 4000 fpm rate of descent. The flight crew was able to stop the descent at FL270.

Not exactly a near fatal crash......

Quoting anfromme (Reply 81): c) The computer fix didn't work.

The "fix" is a procedure to turn off ADRUs, which means pressing two buttons......

As usual far less interesting than what the media made you believe.....

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 88): But most airliners, including the A320 , have all windows fitted from the inside. yes they are hard to handle and changing one takes time.

Ah, thanks. I thought the infamous cockpit window accident happened on a 320, and so the 320 must have cockpit windows fitted from the outside... Stupid me.   


David

New York Times:

Investigators said they had so far been unable to retrieve any data from the plane’s cockpit voice recorder, and the inquiry has been hampered further, an official said, by the discovery that the second black box, which was found on Wednesday, was severely damaged, and its memory card dislodged and missing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...av=top-news&_r=3&assetType=nyt_now

According dutch press, apparently a French Jetfighter was scrambled to intercept the 320. The reports of the pilot of this jet could be of very high value. This was said by Minister Ségolène Royal according 'Die Welt' a german newspaper.

Scary to see a lot of similarity with the Helios crash...

link (in dutch) : http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/2...aaljager_vloog_naar_toestel__.html

[Edited 2015-03-25 08:16:16]

[Edited 2015-03-25 08:16:49]

When I fly single engine piston over mountainous terrain, I am one of those folks who is really aware of where I could land if I lost my engine... So much so that, if it were to happen, I would immediately be turning to that heading while pitching for optimum glide speed and grabbing my checklist.

I have tried to read all these posts - it is hard to keep up - there is much discussion about WHY DIDN'T "THEY COMMUNICATE - ANSWER: SIMPLE IT SAYS AVIATE FIRST..."

My question to those who do this for a living (I'm just a Private Pilot) is do you see evidence of "Aviate" past the first few seconds of whatever went wrong?

Specifically, can you imagine a situation where you would have not altered course at all as part of whatever you were dealing with? Is there any reason why you wouldn't initiate a turn away from the alps? Or maybe that's too open-ended. Given that you were losing altitude for some reason (commanded, un-commanded) and assuming you were able to trouble-shoot, is there a reason you would continue into the Alps?

I'm trying to imagine a scenario where you lose control surfaces, but don't radio at all, etc...

In other words, did the pilots (as opposed to someone else) really "Aviate"? Beyond pitching for airspeed and beginning a descent, it doesn't seem like they had the chance, does it?

So isn't the answer to why not communicate -- Because they didn't even get to "Aviate."

i know this is crazy, but perhaps a piece of falling space debris cracked the windshield?

if so, would there be a way to know with the plane essentially in a million pieces on the ground?

Quoting holzmann (Reply 1): 1. Front windscreen fails, perhaps even breaks.

I'm highly skeptical about the cockpit window theory. I had personally a cockpit window crack on an A320 less than a year ago, but the remaining 2 layers are more than enough to withstand high altitude pressure.

With all due respect, I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post because there are so many flaws it's a bit pointless.

BEA conference live here:

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/live/20...e-haute-provence_4600165_3214.html

Quoting elinyc (Reply 68): Quoting travelavnut (Reply 3): Try holding your breath for 30 seconds, see if you die. But you have normal pressure air in your lungs with enough oxygen in it to maintain gas exchange... After explosive decompression with such pressure differential the'd be much less air. Time of useful conciousness is about 12 seconds I beleive...

For the record that was not my quote.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 88): There are a few aircraft with cockpit windows fitted from the outside, The BAC 111 and the Tristar are two. But most airliners, including the A320 , have all windows fitted from the inside. yes they are hard to handle and changing one takes time. Passenger windows are also fitted from the inside and clipped in place.

From the "other forum" that is not correct, post #532, found on page 27 of their thread.

Quote: "Not the A320s where I changed windscreens. They are fitted from the outside, same as the B747, B757 and B767. The only aircraft I worked on with windscreens fitted from the inside is the Boeing 737,but changing a windscreen there is a lot of work and takes time because one has to dismantle half the cockpit (liners and glareshield) to get access."

Quoting sebolino (Reply 96): BEA conference live here: http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/live/20...e-haute-provence_4600165_3214.html

It's being delayed because Pr. Hollande, Ch. Merkel and PM Rajoy are expected to give a press conference.

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-div...cherches-est-imminente_858171.html

The stage is set. They are all waiting.

http://nos.nl/livestream/npo-nieuws

[Edited 2015-03-25 08:29:02]

Surprised at the number of non-European nationalities onboard this intra-europe flight USA, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia, Morocco, Turkey, Israel, Iran, Kazakhstan and Australia.

[Edited 2015-03-25 08:41:08]