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bnatraveler
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Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:22 pm

Rolling to part 6

Part 5 can be found here: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 5 (by wilco737 Mar 25 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:28 pm

The website of the high school which mourns its 16 pupils and two teachers.

http://www.joseph-koenig-gymnasium.de/



    



David
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
http://www.joseph-koenig-gymnasium.de/

It was 404 all day yesterday....not loading for me now...and that's fine. Let them mourn without the eyes of the world upon them.
 
exfss
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:40 pm

I will repost it , since I wonder.

Is it possible when entering the descent data in A/P , rather than inputing 10000, you input 1000 ft?
(if in a mist of decompression or whatever else could be)
and if so, is the A/P wil react in any way if the requested altitude is below MSA?
Also,
Considering the possibility of windshield blowing out, wouldn't the mask (and everything else in the cockpit ) fly away out ?
if so, if we consider a 3,500 per minutes ft descent, by the time they are at 14,000 ft their brain would not be functionnal if I understand well?
 
wjcandee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 190):
No explosion aboard Germanwings flight, French aviation official says

A stupid statement for him to make, and a stupid intepretation by the news media. What he is really saying is that there is no evidence of a gigantic explosion that caused the aircraft to disintegrate in the air. He was observing that the aircraft appeared to hit the ground basically-intact.

This does not preclude a smaller explosion that could have incapacitated the pilots (i.e. a device in the cockpit) without breaching the hull, or a hull breach that was large enough to cause a decompression (explosive or otherwise) without affecting the overall structural integrity of the aircraft.

Or an explosion in a location that disabled some or all of the flight control systems without affecting the structural integrity of the aircraft or causing any flight control surfaces to depart the aircraft.

Imagine something that punched a hole in the aircraft the size of an outflow valve. They are in no position whatsoever at this point to declare that a piece of plane that size didn't land two miles away.
 
namezero111111
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 3):

The autopilot flies great and precise, but it has no soul.
If in VS mode without altitude intercept engaged, it will hold that vertical speed until a) GPWS sounds and disengages the autopilot or b) you hit something solid.

*Edit* The mileage on your autopilot may vary, but none will decide to hold a "safe" altitude all by itself if that is what you're asking.

[Edited 2015-03-25 13:44:06]
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 3):
Is it possible when entering the descent data in A/P , rather than inputing 10000, you input 1000 ft?
(if in a mist of decompression or whatever else could be)
and if so, is the A/P wil react in any way if the requested altitude is below MSA?

If I'm not completely wrong yes, that should be perfectly possible. I believe A/P would then descend until target altitude has been reached, if any terrain happens to be on the way aircraft will simply end up flying to the ground.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 3):
Is it possible when entering the descent data in A/P , rather than inputing 10000, you input 1000 ft?
(if in a mist of decompression or whatever else could be)

This is the autopilot panel on a 320. You enter the altitude using a dial, so you had to go through 9000, 8000, 7000 etc. feet until you could enter 1000 ft.

http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/IndianAir605/Flight_Directors.jpg

Quoting exfss (Reply 3):
and if so, is the A/P wil react in any way if the requested altitude is below MSA?

I don't think so, because ATC will assign you an altitude above MSA anyway. At the ATC facility, automatic warnings will be raised if a plane descends below MSA (if such a warning is installted and enabled). And during approach, you have to descend through MSA anyway...


David
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:57 pm

I know it's very early in the investigation but I am alarmed at another seemingly inexplicable crash where there is little or no data and no communication with the ground (or anyone) that is apparently of any use. And the wreckage is both on land here and in a technologically modern and populated part of the globe. What gives? Is the airline industry as behind the times in terms of digital information monitoring as it appears to be? Can't they even build a Black Box that will do what it is supposed to do (i.e., survive a crash and provide information)?

[Edited 2015-03-25 14:01:03]
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):

So sad. My school is about to send a group of exchange students to DUS. Many are my friends. I cannot even begin to imagine what this loss must feel like for the friends and families.  
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:01 pm

Jouty is head of the BEA and he seems to rule out a rapid decompression.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-crashed-germanwings-flight-4u9525

Jouty said it was too early to give details of the cockpit recording. However, he said the information investigators had put together suggested the plane had not exploded and did not suffer a “classic decompression situation”.
 
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maartent
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:01 pm

First, as my first post ever here, I want to convey my deep sorrows to the people involved,

In last threat (5) there was a message saying that the cockpit door will automatically open in case of de-pressurization of the flight deck. This I find a bit counter-intuitive if that is intended.

In any case, I think this accident is a bit less mysterious than the media think it is. The flightpath suggest a flight on A/P, with deliberate input to descent. There were reports of the pilots not responding any more, and even a fighter jet scrambled to see what was going on. That suggest incapacitation of the crew.

What is strange is why the pilots could not get the masks on in time, so it seems, there were probably more than one problems (as is usually the case).
 
exfss
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 5):
but none will decide to hold a "safe" altitude all by itself if that is what you're asking.

Thanks,
actually I was wondering if any MSA data was entered in the routing as data for A/P.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 7):
This is the autopilot panel on a 320. You enter the altitude using a dial, so you had to go through 9000, 8000, 7000 etc. feet until you could enter 1000 ft.

I am glad you dismiss this possibility...

For the MSA, what I try to say is by exemple, a enroute breifing (for an old FSS as me)would specify the MSA.
I wonder if it would not be useful to have it as enroute data in the A/p,
not at all implying it has anything to do with this case.
 
peterjohns
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 7):
I don't think so, because ATC will assign you an altitude above MSA anyway. At the ATC facility, automatic warnings will be raised if a plane descends below MSA (if such a warning is installted and enabled). And during approach, you have to descend through MSA anyway...

The MSA (Minimum Sector Altitude) is used around airports.... But there is a Minimum Grid Alt. which in this case (Mountains) should be quite high, and there are MRVA´s (Minimum Radar Vectoring Altitudes) for our (ATC) use.

In fact, we can see which Alt is selected in the Autopilot panel- and if there is a mismatch with the cleared FL there will be a visual warning. So as soon as the Pilot entered a different FL or Alt as the cleared FL380, the colleagues should have noticed that- which they probably did. That, however, won´t help much if the crew doesn´t respond. In this case (as happened) we HAVE to report it - it will be forwarded to air defense - they decide if they will send up the QRA quick response alert (Jet fighters- armed)
 
daryl1866
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 3):

IF there was a sudden decompression in the cockpit, the cockpit door would automatically open.

There are two pressure sensors in cockpit which sense a differential pressure between flight deck and cabin. Should a differential occur the three "latches" which prevent cockpit door from being opened from outside would be automatically de-energised. Differential pressure would force cockpit door open. Crew would be able to access cockpit if pilots were incapacitated and try to communicate with ATC.

In answer to your question, the masks would most definitely not be "sucked out".
 
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mikelive
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 8):
Can't they even build a Black Box that will do what it is supposed to do (i.e., survive a crash and provide information)?

Considering how hard the plane supposedly hit the mountain, I'm not that surprised at how mangled the housing of the CVR looked.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 4):
A stupid statement for him to make, and a stupid intepretation by the news media

Why? They have apparently now reviewed the CVR.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 4):
Or an explosion in a location that disabled some or all of the flight control systems without affecting the structural integrity of the aircraft or causing any flight control surfaces to depart the aircraft.

The aircraft should be designed so that this is impossible.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 4):
Imagine something that punched a hole in the aircraft the size of an outflow valve. They are in no position whatsoever at this point to declare that a piece of plane that size didn't land two miles away.

737s at altitude have lost a lot more fuselage than that and the crew remained alert and capable and the aircraft were landed safely. A hole the diameter of a baseball should not be sufficient to down an aircraft unless it is made by a missile going through a fuel tank.

However, what the official said is that the CVR at this time does not indicate that there was an explosion.
 
flyzapper
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 8):
Can't they even build a Black Box that will do what it is supposed to do (i.e., survive a crash and provide information)?

Maybe you should pay attention to the latest press statement. The data from the CVR was analyzed and provided audio up until the time of the crash. The CVR did EXACTLY what you claim did not happen: survive a very violent impact.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 8):
Can't they even build a Black Box that will do what it is supposed to do (i.e., survive a crash and provide information)?

Not sure what you mean?

The CVR in this case did just that, survived the crash and provided information.

I have little doubt that when the FDR is found, the same will be true.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:13 pm

Only that sphere is designed to survive. The mounting portion(the flat part) is not designed so survive, just mount the recorder in place. So if you see a crushed up metal around the sphere that is not a "bad design"
 
CO764
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:13 pm

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/le...-Twr-App-TMA-Mar-24-2015-0900Z.mp3

Here's a Liveatc recording of Barcelona at the time of the flight's departure. At 01:39, you can clearly hear the aircraft (callsign GWI18G) responding to a frequency handoff from the tower controller. You may also be able to hear other transmissions within the Barcelona FIR later on, but the sound gets a bit muffled. I'm not sure if this has been posted on here before - forgive me if it has.

Such an incredibly tragic accident.
CO764

 
 
sharles
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 13):
. So as soon as the Pilot entered a different FL or Alt as the cleared FL380, the colleagues should have noticed that- which they probably did.

Do the FR24 receivers also receive and/or record this information?
Is there any statement by BEA regarding what the controllers saw?
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting flyzapper (Reply 17):
Maybe you should pay attention to the latest press statement. The data from the CVR was analyzed and provided audio up until the time of the crash. The CVR did EXACTLY what you claim did not happen: survive a very violent impact.

Here's what the NY Times is saying currently:

"They eventually succeeded in recovering an audio file, but did not say whether it was partial or complete or whether it contained any information to address what had happened.

At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact."

Is there a more confidence-inspiring press statement out there?

[Edited 2015-03-25 14:22:33]
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 8):
Can't they even build a Black Box that will do what it is supposed to do (i.e., survive a crash and provide information)?

In the *vast* majority of crashes, the recorders are already doing a superb job of surviving... to my knowledge, the recorders of SR111 could still be read, but due to power failure on the plane, they stopped to record a part of the events.

Here is a summary of what a CSMU (crash-survivable memory unit) has to survive: http://science.howstuffworks.com/tra...sport/flight/modern/black-box5.htm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 13):

Thank you for the clarifications!


David
 
hbofinger
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:21 pm

Hi - my first post on this topic...

We all seem to need some sort of instant gratification in terms of knowing what caused the crash. This is a common theme, yet history has shown us that even in flights with plenty of information at hand the final real cause(s) of the accident took some time to establish. In this case here we will just, once again, have to be patient.

It is usually a sequence of events that lead to a crash, not just a single event...
 
macc
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:21 pm

Just out of curiosity, if the windshields would blow out, would the pilots be able to withstand the airflow pressing onto them in combination with the tmperature at that flightlevel?

That must come close to shockfrosting.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 22):
Here's what the NY Times is saying currently:

The BEA contradicts both of those.

The CVR was successfully downloaded and listened to.

The FDR has not been found.

On the FDR, the NYT is likely confused between the chassis of the FDR, and the FDR itself.

The part of the FDR that matters, has not been found. Until it is found, we know nothing about the memory modules inside of it.
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:25 pm

Quoting the NYT:

This official said that the lack of communication suggested that the pilots might have been incapacitated as a result of an onboard failure such as a loss of cabin pressure, which could have deprived the crew members of oxygen.

While all pilots are equipped with emergency oxygen masks, the pilots would first have to be aware that a depressurization had occurred, the official said.

“If for any reason they don’t detect the problem in time, they would black out,” the official said.


So let's focus on depressurization. Let's say we have two options: 1) An abrupt depressurization. We know that the windscreen cannot just break, fly in the pilots' faces and render them blind from shards of broken glass. Still, the windscreen could have been a source of depressurization. We also know that in an obvious, abrupt case, the pilots are trained to don their O2 masks in under 5 seconds, presumably permitting them to aviate to a safe FL10 or so where the air is breathable. 2) Option two may be the more worrisome scenario based on the quote above. A slow, steady killer of O2 starvation and deprivation where the body goes from normal to giddy to feeling high to unconsciousness and death in a relatively short period of time but yet not as abruptly as the scenario in Option 1.

Looking at the "facts" the plane ascended to FL38 at 10:30, radioed with ATC that all was A-OKAY and at 10:31 the plane begins its mysterious descent during which the flight crew does not communicate with ATC. The timing would seem to point at an abrupt (Option 1) scenario and not the slower Option 2 scenario, correct? Yet the failure to aviate, navigate, communicate seems to agree more with Option 2. It's so confusing.

Let's say the airframe was stressed at FL38. When was the last time it flew at or near FL38 according to the Flightaware history? Did it fly at or near FL38 on previous flights? Since its A Check? And let's say the frame did "buckle" under stress, even if in the smallest and most imperceptible of ways, could the Option 2 scenario of going from fine-to giddy-to high-to death occur in 60 seconds between 10:30 and 10:31? Who here as spent enough time, in the military or otherwise, doing high altitude O2 deprivation tests?

[Edited 2015-03-25 14:27:10]
 
aklrno
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:29 pm

I'm a bit curious about the underwater locator beacon. Is it sturdy enough to survive impact on land? Assuming the aircraft went nose-first into the mountain there was a very long crumple zone that reduced the g-forces on the FDR located in the aft end.

Eventually it will rain. If the pinger is intact it will start pinging. Is there any procedure available to detect that very weak sound when it is out of water ? People won't hear it but a dog would. A suitably sensitive instrument might hear it.
 
daryl1866
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting maartent (Reply 11):
Quote:
in last threat (5) there was a message saying that the cockpit door will automatically open in case of de-pressurization of the flight deck. This I find a bit counter-intuitive if that is intended.

Why isn't this plausible? This equalises pressure between cabin and cockpit.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 22):
Is there a more confidence-inspiring press statement out there?

Here is the CVR:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.gwi18g/images/photo.cvr.3.jpg

The crushed part is not important at all. It is just to house connectors, wiring, power supply, the beacon, etc. and to provide a way to mount the assembly in the aircraft.

The important part is the orange cylinder mounted on the crushed part. The data is stored deep inside that cylinder.

You can see that the cylinder is in very good shape.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting maartent (Reply 11):
In last threat (5) there was a message saying that the cockpit door will automatically open in case of de-pressurization of the flight deck. This I find a bit counter-intuitive if that is intended.

You don't want the odd structural loads that a large pressure difference across the cabin/cockpit would generate, so you have to have a way to equalize pressures.
 
mika
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 30):
Here is the CVR:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.gwi18g/images/photo.cvr.3.jpg

The crushed part is not important at all. It is just to house connectors, wiring, power supply, the beacon, etc. and to provide a way to mount the assembly in the aircraft.

The important part is the orange cylinder mounted on the crushed part. The data is stored deep inside that cylinder.

You can see that the cylinder is in very good shape.

Man, just imagine the forces that thing has been through...amazing that the elemental part that holds the recording itself is still so intact. Will be very interesting to see what they find on the recording itself, hopefully something very useful.
 
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Schweigend
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:37 pm

In the last thread, someone mentioned that nothing has come out yet about the ACARS on this flight. How long will it take before the telemetry data is revealed? It will help to complete the picture.

Were there any cell phone calls from the ill-fated passengers? If not, that points to their being incapacitated, unless phone coverage was unavailable in the area of the flight.

It is possible that some pax personal devices will be recovered in the debris, and they may contain photos, messages, and other information.

I must say, having watched all three press conferences today, that the BEA, Hollande, Merkel, Rajoy, Spohr and Winkelmann all seemed very sincere and focused, certain that the cause will be found.

Just a matter of time before the FDR is recovered.
 
airnorth
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 13):

Thanks for the insight from an Air Traffic Controller, very interesting stuff.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:38 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 27):
The timing would seem to point at an abrupt (Option 1) scenario and not the slower Option 2 scenario, correct? Yet the failure to aviate, navigate, communicate seems to agree more with Option 2. It's so confusing.

I am still saying it is option 1 and a faulty oxygen mask / tank scenario where right at the moment of losing consciousness the pilot was turning the ALT knob to 10,000 but went too far and lost consciousness OR adjusted the vertical rate AP setting with no floor so it just kept descending.

It's about the only thing that makes sense to me.
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 30):
Here is the CVR:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.gwi18g/images/photo.cvr.3.jpg

The crushed part is not important at all. It is just to house connectors, wiring, power supply, the beacon, etc. and to provide a way to mount the assembly in the aircraft.

The important part is the orange cylinder mounted on the crushed part. The data is stored deep inside that cylinder.

You can see that the cylinder is in very good shape.

Thanks for that. I saw the picture in the NY Times, yet all of the news reports suggest that the data is probably, at best partial.
 
captainsimon
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:40 pm

Heart Felt condolences go all of the affect and their families.

Sorry if its been answered before or asked prior but I have not read all 6 threads fully on this subject.

With a plane that must have contained approx 1.5 hrs - 2hrs of fuel why does there appear to be no fire at the crash site or any sign of burning.
I would have guessed that with an impact speed of 450mph there their may have been a fire or smouldering wreckage.
 
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litz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 19):
Only that sphere is designed to survive. The mounting portion(the flat part) is not designed so survive, just mount the recorder in place. So if you see a crushed up metal around the sphere that is not a "bad design"

That is, in fact, exactly what happened : the enclosure performed exactly as designed.

The "non-important" parts (that are not designed to survive impact) were destroyed/deformed, and the CSMU (which IS designed to survive impact) looks almost in perfect shape.

Those things are incredibly strong ... remember AF447's were found 3 years later, some 18-20,000 feet underwater ... and read out perfect data.

It's very rare a modern black box fails to provide data .... pretty much they have to not be found for that to happen :

MH370 (they haven't found the wreckage, so no black box to analyze)
9/11 (likely pulverized in the building collapses)

In other cases, aircraft damage causes them to stop recording (national air; the MRAM that dislodged and hit the rear bulkhead likely damaged the cabling to the recorders, and they stopped receiving data; also the fire on SR 111) ... in those cases the boxes were OK, but couldn't record anything.
 
JmeDubya
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:52 pm

IIRC the sound of the explosion in Lockerbee lasted 180milliseconds on the CVR. I agree there's no way they could tell if this happened or if there was some sort of structural damage this early in the investigation. When UA232 lost its tail engines fan disc the plane came down "entirely intact" too. At least until a farmer found the disc. ( and I'd assume had he not, NTSB et al would have learned pretty fast in the investigation of that engines remains. But by pretty fast I'd say weeks to months,)

I know the pieces are small and pictures limited but is anyone else concerned about the lack or scorching in the wreckage? I know the geology makes it hard but I believe there should have been a lot of fuel load left at this point, correct? If they had a fuel starvation issue, would this decent rate at no power be enough to maintain airspeed indicated on radar track? Also why have the few witnesses to end of decent mentioned a fireball or smoke plume? SAR was initiated very quickly....
 
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litz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting captainsimon (Reply 37):
I would have guessed that with an impact speed of 450mph there their may have been a fire or smouldering wreckage.

I think you've partially answered your own question ... with an impact speed of 450mph, the aircraft is sufficiently atomized that there isn't much to burn ...

the fuel would vaporize, and probably cause fireball ... and that's it.

for there to be a fire or smoldering wreckage, there needs to be something to burn ... and all you have here is rock, and very tiny pieces of airplane.

The fireball would consume itself and snuff out in fairly short order.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting captainsimon (Reply 37):
I would have guessed that with an impact speed of 450mph there their may have been a fire or smouldering wreckage.

Some trees are burnt. I expect most of the fuel to have vaporized. Then it may or may not have burnt/exploded in a ball of fire.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 40):
I think you've partially answered your own question ... with an impact speed of 450mph, the aircraft is sufficiently atomized that there isn't much to burn ...

According to one report, skiiers on a nearby ridge smelled fuel shortly after impact.
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 27):
So let's focus on depressurization. Let's say we have two options: 1) An abrupt depressurization.

At the press conference the BEA apparently indicated that there is no evidence for that:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 10):
Jouty is head of the BEA and he seems to rule out a rapid decompression.http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-crashed-germanwings-flight-4u9525
 
wjcandee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 8):

I know it's very early in the investigation but I am alarmed at another seemingly inexplicable crash where there is little or no data and no communication with the ground (or anyone) that is apparently of any use.

Way too early to be saying anything like this. They are under no obligation to tell YOU anything yet. The media is stupidly stoking this. Give it a couple of days.

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 22):
but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact

I will do it: "The actual memory unit, contained in a smaller, harder container than its mounting, has not yet been recovered, but is presumed to be lying somewhere in the relatively-small debris field."
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting JmeDubya (Reply 39):
I know the pieces are small and pictures limited but is anyone else concerned about the lack or scorching in the wreckage? I know the geology makes it hard but I believe there should have been a lot of fuel load left at this point, correct? If they had a fuel starvation issue,

The plane impacted a granite surface which probably didn't give a fraction of an inch. So the entire fuel load was vaporized and dispersed in small a fraction of a second.

So if there was a fire it would have just been a flash of heat on a barren mountain peak.

That's my non-professional take on it.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
However, what the official said is that the CVR at this time does not indicate that there was an explosion.

Huh, what I SAW HIM SAY was that the small debris field meant that there was no disintegration.

You are normally someone with whom I see eye to eye, but your parsing of my post in this case is just wrong. Plainly damage from an explosion in the right place of the right size could result in a moderately-controllable or out of control aircraft that nevertheless impacts the ground more-or-less intact, with whatever minimal-if-any parts that departed the aircraft miles away in the snow covered Alps.

This is all just dumb. Give them a few more hours to review what they have, and then we should see much more direction in the investigation. My point was that the media took his comments about one thing and turned them into another thing. Which is true.

[Edited 2015-03-25 15:02:42]

[Edited 2015-03-25 15:03:09]
 
aw70
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 27):
2) Option two may be the more worrisome scenario based on the quote above. A slow, steady killer of O2 starvation and deprivation where the body goes from normal to giddy to feeling high to unconsciousness and death in a relatively short period of time but yet not as abruptly as the scenario in Option 1.

Except that a warning siren goes off if cabin pressure is slowly lost. For all practical purposes, this can not happen unnoticed. And not that fast, either.
 
sirto
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:00 pm

As someone pointed out, it very strange that the unexpected descent begun shortly after reaching the TOC.
What happens at TOC?
What usually pilots do in this phase of flight?
Do they relax? Do they leave the cockpit for physiological needs?
Do they stowe the electronic flightbag?
Do they turn on their cellphones to take some photos?
In the latter case, could the battery have exploded?
Maybe they were even ashamed to report that to ATC what happened and poorly managed the descent ending up poisoned by the fumes...
I know, the exploding battery case is just a guess without any evidence, but I am strongly convinced that the reason is linked to the reaching for the TOC.

In any case, as we fond of aviation know, the solution of this case will make future flights safer.
And this is all we can do to honour the victims
 
Summa767
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 10):
Jouty is head of the BEA and he seems to rule out a rapid decompression.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-crashed-germanwings-flight-4u9525

Jouty said it was too early to give details of the cockpit recording. However, he said the information investigators had put together suggested the plane had not exploded and did not suffer a “classic decompression situation”.

Despite the little new information that emerged from today's BAE briefing, the fact that its director stated that there does not seem to have been a decompression is quite significant given that this has been a hypothesis mentioned frequently.

On the voices and noises heard on the cockpit recording, let's hope that they don't delay the information too long.

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