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hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting maartent (Reply 139):
One can also pose the question how NYT got that news,

Possibly from the same source that told them nothing could be recovered from the CVR?
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PA727
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 49):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 10):
Jouty is head of the BEA and he seems to rule out a rapid decompression.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-crashed-germanwings-flight-4u9525

Jouty said it was too early to give details of the cockpit recording. However, he said the information investigators had put together suggested the plane had not exploded and did not suffer a “classic decompression situation”.

[quote=summa767,reply=49]Despite the little new information that emerged from today's BAE briefing, the fact that its director stated that there does not seem to have been a decompression is quite significant given that this has been a hypothesis mentioned frequently.

I have no desire to speculate and feel nothing but sadness for the families of those involved. But I do think there is some confusion as to what was said - words matter. He said the aircraft did not suffer a CLASSIC decompression situation. That can mean many things, ranging from no decompression to something they have not seen before or anything in between.

We must allow the professionals to do their job not at the pace with which we want to know what happened, but at the pace that allows them to find the right answers.
 
versabob
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:43 am

NY Times reporting that CVR indicates that one of the pilots had been locked out of the cockpit
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting exfss (Reply 146):
Quoting tailskid (Reply 129):
Most people in the MH370 thread who have spoken on their theories, say that is their top theory

Absolutely not true.
And as sujej772(reply 109)
You cannot claim it as suicidal because you dont know it yet.

here in austria we call these rules a "mc donald's rule", it means that it has the same use as if you order a hot cup of coffee and it says on the cup something like "beware of hot coffee, it might burn you". this rule is complete nonsense and it is hard to believe how a human being with a decent amount of brain thinks that this changes anything.

i know probably far over a thousand flight attendants (the majority is female), only a few male ones of them could prevent me from doing what i want to do. if a pilot wishes to take a planeload of souls with him, a 55kg stewardess locked with him in the cockpit will sure stop him!

in the a320, pilots often place their suitcases behind their seats, there is enough space. if one stands up to get something from his suitcase, the other one can't do a thing sitting behind the controls.

the only thing that can prevent pilot suicide would be two separate cockpits....
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AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:46 am

While likely, I would not say it was suicide yet...there are other scenarios worth looking at that could explain the NYT article still. Although disturbing, I´m hoping it was not a LAM or Silkair type crash.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:46 am

Capri, just stop. That's not how Airbuses are flown.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:46 am

So if the NY Times source is to be trusted, suicide is the only viable option.
A) depressurization would have opened the latches for the cockpit door
B) for the other pilot not being able to open the door from the outside the door has to be mechanically latched shut from inside, ruling out any medical emergency close to certainty.
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:47 am

I try not to watch CNN because they sensationalize everything. Nothing is ever just news like it is on the BBC (for

Quoting capri (Reply 150):
Edit: didn't someone mentioned earlier in threads that one F/A is Flight sim enthusiast ?

I heard the F/A had flown Flight Sim sorties with the pilot of MH370.  Wow!

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:02:51]
 
hamster
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:52 am

The flight is a little over an hour. Would a pilot need to excuse himself for that hour to use the bathroom? Why else would the pilot be outside the cockpit. Something is not right here.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 156):
i know probably far over a thousand flight attendants (the majority is female), only a few male ones of them could prevent me from doing what i want to do. if a pilot wishes to take a planeload of souls with him, a 55kg stewardess locked with him in the cockpit will sure stop him!

I think you missed the point myself and exfss were making here.

We weren't saying this case wasn't pilot suicide. We weren't even really saying that MH370 wasn't pilot suicide. What we were saying is that for HALtheAI to include MH370 in a list of pilot suicide in order to make the case that pilot suicide is a trend on the rise is not appropriate given what is known/unknown about that incident.

Your comments are interesting though. While I wouldn't have thought a 55kg flight attendant would be able to stop you from trying to take the plane down, I would think a 55kg flight attendant would be able to get the door unlocked to let the other pilot in.

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:06:36]
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:53 am

If the New York Times is correct then that requires the pilot remaining in the flight to take deliberate steps to lock out the other pilot, correct?
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 159):
So if the NY Times source is to be trusted, suicide is the only viable option.

As I said. Not just ready to assume that just yet. A simultaneous exit of the cockpit and then a hypoxic event while the other crew member was inside could explain things. The descent by his intent to get to a lower altitude.

Sure, suicide is likely, but there´s still a lot of data to go over yet before I would be ready to say that with certainty.

Of course. This is just my opinion.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 156):
i know probably far over a thousand flight attendants (the majority is female), only a few male ones of them could prevent me from doing what i want to do.

Dude. They're not there to stop you.

They're there to let the other guy in if you have a heart attack.

How do I do the rolleyes emoticon again?

SET OPINION ON: How is it that after the JetBlue incident where the captain had a psychotic break that any airline anywhere in the world couldn't have foreseen how important it is to have a second person in the cockpit at all times? People should have been shaking their heads and saying, "How can we make sure that we're prepared if this happens at our airline?" SET OPINION OFF

[Edited 2015-03-25 17:58:48]
 
capri
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:56 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 158):

Not if you plan to commit a suicide
 
tp1040
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:57 am

Speculation is running rampant.

But, Pilot and Co-Pilot names are usually readily available. It does seem strange that over 24 hours later, we don't know their names and experience.

Unless I missed something.
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:58 am

Was it an AA MD-80 or -90 flight 2-3 months ago in which the pilot was locked out until landing? I'm wondering whether the MD80 cockpit-door system in America would be basically the same in interlocks, operation, failsafes, etc., as the A320 system in Germany, or whether they are significantly different?

This is going to sound a bit out there, and I'm not fixated on it - just an idle thought - but I wonder whether the system is at all hackable. Just to uncover every stone, were I working for an intelligence agency, I might be considering cross-referencing the passenger lists on the two flights to see if there were any connections among passengers with a degree or two of separation.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting racko (Reply 163):



  
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:00 am

So how is this looking to the future for the soundness of the two cockpit person design? If this was suicide, then what solution is going to be implemented in the short term?.

This also sheds light on the MH370 disappearance.
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:01 am

Airline crashes are almost always caused by a combination of factors. One cause is unlikely. There was an Egyptian Airlines pilot who brought down a plane in an apparent suicide and another incident with a Biman Bangladesh cargo plane, but as far as I can tell, pilot suicide by bringing down a plane is rare.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting susej772 (Reply 162):
What we were saying is that for tailskid to include MH370 in a list of pilot suicide in order to make the case that pilot suicide is a trend on the rise

When did I do anything like that?

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:08:28]
 
32andBelow
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting hamster (Reply 161):
The flight is a little over an hour. Would a pilot need to excuse himself for that hour to use the bathroom? Why else would the pilot be outside the cockpit. Something is not right here.

When you gotta go, you gotta go. Just because the flight was short it doesn't mean they just started work right before the flight.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:03 am

Nobody knows anything about the pilots yet to immediately consider this a murder-suicide. Were the pilots going through hard times? Do they have a history of mental problems? We don't know. The NYT article is troubling, but it does not suggest murder-suicide... at least not until we know more about the pilots.
 
hamster
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:03 am

How are the doors/locks to these planes post 9/11? Who has keys or are there keys? How does access to the the cockpit work?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 168):
Was it an AA MD-80 or -90 flight 2-3 months ago in which the pilot was locked out until landing? I'm wondering whether the MD80 cockpit-door system in America would be basically the same in interlocks, operation, failsafes, etc., as the A320 system in Germany, or whether they are significantly different?

OK, but in that case the aircraft continued to a safe landing.

In order for that to be the explanation here, then in short order 1) The pilot in the cockpit has a stroke but 2) accidentally commands a descent just as 3) the cockpit door happens to jam.

That's possible, but not as likely as a suicide.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 164):
Sure, suicide is likely, but there´s still a lot of data to go over yet before I would be ready to say that with certainty.

Can you list another cause consistent with current information? I just did, but it seems much less likely.
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hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting racko (Reply 163):
If the New York Times is correct then that requires the pilot remaining in the flight to take deliberate steps to lock out the other pilot, correct?

Or become incapacitated for whatever reason.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 164):
. A simultaneous exit of the cockpit and then a hypoxic event while the other crew member was inside could explain things.

No it can't. It takes (an unusual) action on the part of the person still on the flight deck to engage the override which locks out persons with the correct access code, and prevents them from opening the door from the cabin side.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 178):
Or become incapacitated for whatever reason.

No because you can get back in if you don't manually lock it out.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 168):

Since 9/11, the cockpit door is designed to keep people out. The fail safes are there to keep the door closed and locked, not wide open.
 
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zeke
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 167):

The aircraft investigators normally never release the names of anyone onboard, that is normally a function of the police/coroner after the process of letting next of kin etc has been made.

You will remember after the oz crash in SFO the NTSB refused to provide that data, referring people to the coroner.
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CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 176):
OK, but in that case the aircraft continued to a safe landing.

In order for that to be the explanation here, then in short order 1) The pilot in the cockpit has a stroke but 2) accidentally commands a descent just as 3) the cockpit door happens to jam.

That's possible, but not as likely as a suicide.

I was thinking of the possibility of the MD-80 or -90 as a dry run, unfortunately. Hence my wondering about the similarities or dissimilarities of the respective MD vs Airbus door designs. Of course, it would make more sense to do a dry run on the same aircraft type though.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 176):
Can you list another cause consistent with current information? I just did, but it seems much less likely.

The pilot exiting and a simultaneous hypoxic event ocurring in the cockpit when the sole pilot was left there. Isn´t there a directive where airliners in the US above a certain altitude need to have the remaining crew member wear their oxygen mask when the other leaves the cockpit?

I know that in LPB at least one cockpit crew member has to be wearing the O2 mask at all times wih AA.

Suicide fits. But I am just saying there is a lot more info. to go through before I can say that is the likely cause.
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 115):
Why not the outbound leg?

Because the other pilot did not leave the cockpit? All about opportunity...
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 172):
Quoting susej772 (Reply 162):
What we were saying is that for tailskid to include MH370 in a list of pilot suicide in order to make the case that pilot suicide is a trend on the rise

When did I do anything like that?

HALtheAl said this:

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 106):
If true, this pilot suicide fad seems to be getting more popular:
JL 350 - 1982
AT 630 - 1994
MI 185 - 1997
MS 990 - 1999
TM 470 - 2013
MH 370 - 2014
4U 9525 - 2015

susej772 said this:

Quoting susej772 (Reply 109):
Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 106):
MH 370 - 2014

You can't claim MH 370 as a pilot suicide.

You said this:

Quoting tailskid (Reply 129):

Quoting susej772 (Reply 109):
You can't claim MH 370 as a pilot suicide.

Why not?

So are you saying it's fine to list MH370 as a confirmed suicide accident?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 172):
When did I do anything like that?

I am VERY sorry. I misquoted. It was actually HALtheAI that claimed MH 370. I had you saved as another comment that I was going to comment on and then didn't and just had you in my head when I meant to type HALtheAl. I have changed the post. Again, very sorry.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 176):
In order for that to be the explanation here, then in short order 1) The pilot in the cockpit has a stroke but 2) accidentally commands a descent just as 3) the cockpit door happens to jam.

Has a stroke or heart attack, immediately starts the checklist because he thinks it's a pressurization accident and gets as far as setting up the AP, becomes totally incapacitated, other pilot can't get back in.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 99):
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 88):
You cannot rule out pilot suicide if that is true

Occam's razor strikes again. It is still possible the pilot remaining in the cockpit had the door locked per procedure, then had a fatal cardiac event or some other form of incapacitation before the Captain returned.

IMHO an 8 minute descent into terrain does not really fit well with the pilot suicide scenario. The time the descent took makes me lean towards the idea that the pilot in the cockpit had some kind of medical episode and the pilot who was outside of the cockpit could not get back in for whatever reason. A pilot wanting to put the plane into the ground could have ended the flight much quicker. On the other hand, the slow descent could have been done intentionally to make it look like an accident - with the risk that the other pilot regains access to the cockpit and saves the plane... Who knows at this stage until the CVR content is confirmed by authorities...
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SunsetLimited
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:10 am

My apologies if this has already been asked...

I believe the cabin crew can enter a code to gain access to the locked door, correct? Is this standard on all 320's?

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:13:02]
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:11 am

CNN discussing cockpit door lock switch right now.
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USWings
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:12 am

Would the passengers have been aware of the other pilot trying to get back in?
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 187):
So are you saying it's fine to list MH370 as a confirmed suicide accident?

Out of all those quotes you posted, my only words were "why not".

Please answer the question, and don't try to change the subject or pin HALtheAI's words on me.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 10):

Jouty said it was too early to give details of the cockpit recording. However, he said the information investigators had put together suggested the plane had not exploded and did not suffer a “classic decompression situation”.

In one sense this makes sense, because if there was a decompression it is hard to understand why the pilots should have suddenly stop communicating with ATC. But that makes it a real mystery as to what could have suddenly incapacitated the pilots, so suddenly that they were unable to communicate anything. Yes, the AF447 crew also did not communicate, but they were suddenly faced with a plane out of control. There is no indication that this one was ever out of control.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 180):
No because you can get back in if you don't manually lock it out.

During flight the door is always locked except when someone is actually walking through it, right?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Rivet42
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:14 am

I'm sorry, but one has to question the source of this rumour - "... a senior military official involved in the investigation...". Given the discipline so far evidenced in this operation, it seems rather implausible. His/her career may be seriously curtailed if it is indeed true. Instant media gratification is no excuse for such an indiscretion, especially given the shocking implications of such a detail...

Riv'
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:14 am

An Airbus A320 has a 3-position toggle switch, unlock/norm/lock.

Unlock = door unlocked
Norm = Door locked, someone can exit and re-enter with a code and "another method"
Lock = Door locked, no one getting in or out.


This is quoting the CNN panel right now.
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CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:15 am

Well one coincidence that would seem weird would be a pressurization issue and the door suddenly malfunctioning. Could depressurization of cabin or cockpit somehow cause the cockpit door to lock? I read earlier that automatically the door opens or unlocks in such an incident, to reduce the pressure differential. The chances seem nil to me that two failures like that would coincide, unless there's something that could depressurize a plane and simultaneously lock the door?

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:16:04]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 185):
The pilot exiting and a simultaneous hypoxic event ocurring in the cockpit when the sole pilot was left there. Isn´t there a directive where airliners in the US above a certain altitude need to have the remaining crew member wear their oxygen mask when the other leaves the cockpit?

A hypoxic event only affecting the pilot on the flight deck but they can still hear the pilot banging on the door? Not likely.

And, as others here have said, the cockpit door can be opened with a code unless the pilot within overrides. A deliberate act is the only remaining possibility.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
USWings
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:18 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 190): On the other hand, the slow descent could have been done intentionally to make it look like an accident - with the risk that the other pilot regains access to the cockpit and saves the plane...

If the intent was indeed to make it look like an accident, the slow descent would make sense. If somehow the other pilot would be able to regain entry, the suicidal pilot could execute the "less perfect" scenario and knock the pilot out. Would certainly not rule out this scenario.

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:19:56]
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:18 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 196):
During flight the door is always locked except when someone is actually walking through it, right?

It is always locked, but the lock out override is not normally engaged on the inside. That way the head attendant can get in if the intercom goes down or some other emergency takes place,
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:18 am

Well, Mark Levin just now broadcast it all over America with his radio talk show, and so now this New York Times assertion is going to go viral, like it or not. Fasten seat belt sign is on.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:19 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=1
This raises a totally new possibility; the captain left the flight deck, and while he was gone the first officer was somehow incapacitated, and could not open the door. I did not realize that the crew could not open the door from the outside; if this turns out to be the case, that will have to be changed.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler

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