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DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 199):

Per the people in charge, there was no depressurization.
 
racko
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 189):
Has a stroke or heart attack, immediately starts the checklist because he thinks it's a pressurization accident and gets as far as setting up the AP, becomes totally incapacitated, other pilot can't get back in.

I doubt "manually lock cockpit door" is on that checklist.
 
aaexecplat
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 am

If this turns out to be an accident caused by pilot suicide, LH will be in very big trouble. The strikes alone are causing massive problems. This will exacerbate their financial problems substantially. Let's hope this isn't what happened.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 204):
that will have to be changed.

But it can't be changed without throwing all the post 9-11 security measures out the window.
 
tp1040
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 183):
The aircraft investigators normally never release the names of anyone onboard, that is normally a function of the police/coroner after the process of letting next of kin etc has been made.

Thank you Zeke.
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 205):
Per the people in charge, there was no depressurization.

I'm just responding to the discussion of depressurization. Earlier I read here that there were some translation questions - about whether they were talking about no "decompression," or no "explosive" decompression. So is it verified that there was none whatsoever?

And, by the way, my condolences....
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 197):

I'm sorry, but one has to question the source of this rumour - "... a senior military official involved in the investigation...". Given the discipline so far evidenced in this operation, it seems rather implausible. His/her career may be seriously curtailed if it is indeed true. Instant media gratification is no excuse for such an indiscretion, especially given the shocking implications of such a detail...

Riv'

Healthy skepticism is always appropriate. But the NY Times is a fairly reputable source, to put it mildly. Actually, the "discipline" (that I am coming more and more to feel is stonewalling) and the incendiary nature of this information would be the classic set-up for a whistle-blower to act. And a military official might actually be lauded for bringing security issues to the fore where civil authorities dither in trepidation.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 200):
A hypoxic event only affecting the pilot on the flight deck but they can still hear the pilot banging on the door? Not likely.

I don´t understand. Who can still hear the pilot banging on the door? The one in the cockpit who suffered the hypoxic event? It coiuld hve been due to another cause other than depressurization. Plus, the other one banging on the door could have gotten ahold of an oxygen bottle a la Hélios.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:25 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

This video might shed some light on cockpit entry procedures...
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 211):
But the NY Times is a fairly reputable source, to put it mildly.

Some of us see it as a mildly reputable source to put it fairly.
 
jetterrosie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:27 am

Everyone please take a moment before you post to remember that loved ones, colleagues and media are reading this forum. Having been through an accident involving fatalities in my career I can tell you that it is heart wrenching to go through all the comments and stories whilst you desperately search for answers that your company can't give you due to regulations around crash investigations. They aren't allowed to speculate or offer conjecture, so in this day and age, in desperation, you find yourself searching the news media and forums like this for clues to help you make sense of it all. One of my worst memories is this very thing...it nearly drove me insane. By all means speculate, this is an aviation forum after all where people come to discuss professional opinions. But try to have some respect...every time you type a post think that a family member of someone who was lost (including those of a pilot) might be reading it then edit accordingly.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 210):

Agreed, condolences. This is just very sad for everyone involved.

Judging from the preliminary readings of the CVR, depressurization was not a problem.

I know that was a big "probable cause" on here, but it now appears this had nothing at all to do with the crash.

It is interesting that the experts talk about "voices" in the cockpit even though one pilot was locked out. So who else was in the cockpit?
 
MD88CLE
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 197):
I'm sorry, but one has to question the source of this rumour - "... a senior military official involved in the investigation...". Given the discipline so far evidenced in this operation, it seems rather implausible. His/her career may be seriously curtailed if it is indeed true. Instant media gratification is no excuse for such an indiscretion, especially given the shocking implications of such a detail...

I'm a bit skeptical as well. I would have thought 4U (like many other carriers) would have a flight attendant in the flight deck when one of the pilots leaves exactly because of issues such as this.

Hopefully this can be confirmed or denied quickly to stop the spread of rumor.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 208):
But it can't be changed without throwing all the post 9-11 security measures out the window.

I believe that in the short term, we will start seeing the return of the 3 person cockpit. Until someone comes up with a satisfying solution to these events.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting SunsetLimited (Reply 191):

My apologies if this has already been asked...

I believe the cabin crew can enter a code to gain access to the locked door, correct? Is this standard on all 320's?

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:13:02]

Yes they can enter a code but if it's like our door it can be overridden in the cockpit. Overriding disables the keypad for 20 mins.

 
Sandsofly
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 197):


Everything about this seems like the NY Times
Either getting exclusive or a good source either way
NYT is one of the few news sources doing their
Own investigations. It makes it very credible.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 218):
I believe that in the short term, we will start seeing the return of the 3 person cockpit. Until someone comes up with a satisfying solution to these events.

Respectfully, I seriously doubt that is going to happen. The economies don't support it.
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting MD88CLE (Reply 217):
I would have thought 4U (like many other carriers) would have a flight attendant in the flight deck when one of the pilots leaves exactly because of issues such as this.

But...

Quoting tailskid (Reply 202):
Quoting hivue (Reply 196):During flight the door is always locked except when someone is actually walking through it, right?

It is always locked, but the lock out override is not normally engaged on the inside. That way the head attendant can get in if the intercom goes down or some other emergency takes place,

No lockout override engaged, no need for a FA on the flight deck.
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:33 am

The NY Times source is almost certainly in the French government where they have excellent contacts and sources. This almost is certainly an authorized leak.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting susej772 (Reply 221):
Respectfully, I seriously doubt that is going to happen. The economies don't support it.

I understand. My key words being "short term" and "until" another solution is found. I don´t expect it to be permanent. And the third person in the cockpit does not need to be a pilot.
 
peanuts
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:35 am

This is getting old.

-Terrorists win again (those insane doors are courtesy of insane actions in the past; now we see the flip side of what those doors could lead to...)

-Sterile Cockpit Rules need to be revamped. Completely.
Was there a flight attendant in the cockpit while the other pilot left?

-Live (real time transmission recording) camera's in the cockpit is now only a matter of time.

-Remote flight monitoring and pilot override could be on the horizon.

-This will make pilots less relevant in the long run. Which may affect pay.
 
hivue
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting sandsofly (Reply 220):
NYT is one of the few news sources doing their
Own investigations. It makes it very credible.

Weren't they the ones who reported before the press conference that nothing could be recovered from the CVR?
 
capri
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting MD88CLE (Reply 217):

Unfortunately, I have been on some of LCC carriers and sitting upfront for legroom, and I have seen pilots step out, but no F/A goes in, all they did was pull curtain and stand there until pilot goes back or finish his chat or just relaxing For a bit especially this happens on flight over 3 hrs I have been on.
 
CO953
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:36 am

Removed by poster. Premature - I will finish watching the video

[Edited 2015-03-25 18:37:54]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting boeingrulz (Reply 171):
Airline crashes are almost always caused by a combination of factors. One cause is unlikely. There was an Egyptian Airlines pilot who brought down a plane in an apparent suicide and another incident with a Biman Bangladesh cargo plane, but as far as I can tell, pilot suicide by bringing down a plane is rare.

And likely the Silkair 737-300 in 1997 although there's still some doubt. All 104 aboard fatal.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19971219-0

Also the JAL DC-8-61 in 1982 where pilot suicide is considered a likely cause. 24 fatalities of 174 aboard.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19820209-0
 
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PA727
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:38 am

While those doors are very secure, from all the flights I've been on, they don't look like Fort Knox. Is eight minutes not enough time for the captain and some of the passengers to force entry using anything and everything at their disposal?

I apologize if this question seems off base, but in extreme situations, I would think it could be possible. In a situation like 9/11, passengers are now savvy enough to stop someone trying to force entry, but if as a group they tried to gain entry, would eight minutes be enough?
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:39 am

Have any or you been suicidal? It is not a

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 229):
And likely the Silkair 737-300 in 1997 although there's still some doubt. All 104 aboard fatal.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19971219-0

Also the JAL DC-8-61 in 1982 where pilot suicide is considered a likely cause. 24 fatalities of 174 aboard.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19820209-0

Thanks for the additional information Viscount724
 
F9Animal
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:39 am

I find it odd that the pilots names haven't been released. It sure makes me think that the pilot being locked out may be credible. Very sad if true!  
 
flyzapper
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:41 am

The news about one pilot being unable to return to the cockpit made me think of Ethiopian flight 702 last year. The co-pilot locked the door while the pilot went to the restroom, then hijacked/took the airplane to Geneva and refused to land until he was granted asylum in Switzerland. Clearly, it is possible for one member of the flight crew to take over the aircraft and do what he or she wants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_702
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:44 am

I'm afraid you've just about nailed it ... boggles the mind even if not completely surprising ...

Quoting peanuts (Reply 225):
This is getting old.

-Terrorists win again (those insane doors are courtesy of insane actions in the past; now we see the flip side of what those doors could lead to...)

-Sterile Cockpit Rules need to be revamped. Completely.
Was there a flight attendant in the cockpit while the other pilot left?

-Live (real time transmission recording) camera's in the cockpit is now only a matter of time.

-Remote flight monitoring and pilot override could be on the horizon.

-This will make pilots less relevant in the long run. Which may affect pay.
 
CO953
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:45 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 213):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

This video might shed some light on cockpit entry procedures...

OK, I just watched the video and I am a bit disturbed by the door lock switch. It's in a position where I think it could be hit by the right hand of someone having a medical emergency in the left seat. And there's no safety latch or anything. Nothing to pull up - no cover - and no requirement to hold it for 5 seconds or anything. It locks the door just as easily as the button on the armrest of my car. The video says that it can be mounted on the overhead panel by request, which would appear safer. But watch the video yourself. That switch looks like an accident waiting to happen, to me, in that it would seem to take just one swipe of a hand to lock it, and it's down and below in a prime position where a flailing hand could go. Yes, it has a bit of a guard, but not that good a guard.

After watching that video, I cannot myself, just a layman, rule out an accidental lockout by an incapacitated pilot. Any opinions, from those who watched the video?
 
airtechy
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:45 am

I said several years ago that the locked cockpit door seemed to have stopped terrorist passenger entry. Maybe they have figured out that it's a lot easier to start from within the cockpit. It would be interesting to know what religion the pilot/pilots followed. That seems to have been a factor in past pilot suicides.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 232):
I find it odd that the pilots names haven't been released. It sure makes me think that the pilot being locked out may be credible. Very sad if true!

Not necessarily, privacy is considered of high value in Germany and that affects procedures in situations like this.

The director of the BEA not wanting to comment at all on the content of the CVR on the other hand makes more sense if the NYT report is correct, simply because of the gravity of that revelation - there's only one viable scenario for this, and you better not be wrong about that.
 
bnatraveler
Topic Author
Posts: 402
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:46 am

Rolling to part 7, please continue your discussions here: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7 (by bnatraveler Mar 25 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Posts after this one will be removed for housekeeping purposes, feel free to repost in part 7
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 234):
I said several years ago that the locked cockpit door seemed to have stopped terrorist passenger entry. Maybe they have figured out that it's a lot easier to start from within the cockpit. It would be interesting to know what religion the pilot/pilots followed. That seems to have been a factor in past pilot suicides.

Regardless of whether it's a suicidal pilot, an ISIS sympathizer, or an accidental lock-out prior to a medical emergency, new procedures will now need be instituted ....
 
Martin2008
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:33 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:51 am

One of the pilot's names is making the rounds on twitter, cited to the NY Post. I couldn't find anything on NY Post to confirm, but did a google search and came up with this:

https://vatstats.net/flights/1802506
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15174
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:53 am

Frankly, I think during every crash, there is a claim that "one pilot was locked out" and that usually isn't the case. So let's take it all with some salt. My comment is only theoretically what could happen on any plane, NOT what specifically happened here.

Quoting capri (Reply 150):
Why don't add also in speculation that really F/a entered cockpit after pilot left, and then incapacitated the pilot somehow, and the f/a put stick forward and that's the one that committed suicide, I know it's getting crazy, but any scenario is possible nowadays?

Plausible I guess.

Again, this is not meant to impugn ANYONE. It's only a question of how one person could take over the cockpit and cause a crash.

In theory there is nothing stopping one flight deck officer from knocking out other and doing it without having to lock anyone out, either. If your intention is to harm everyone, why would you need to lock the other person out. Then again, if it's suicide and you don't have the stomach for physical violence, then knocking someone out isn't the easiest thing to do.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3584
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:54 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 181):
Since 9/11, the cockpit door is designed to keep people out.

Just throwing this out there, but I wonder how many people the post-9/11 regulations have now killed vs. how many they've saved. I realize the second number would be difficult to quantify due to the deterrent effect, but it seems like some tweaking to the regs might be in order.

Quoting USWings (Reply 192):
Would the passengers have been aware of the other pilot trying to get back in?

I don't see why they wouldn't have been. In all the A320's I've flown in, the passengers have a clear view of that area of the plane.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 206):
If this turns out to be an accident caused by pilot suicide

That's an oxymoron.

Quoting sandsofly (Reply 219):
NYT is one of the few news sources doing their
Own investigations. It makes it very credible.

Right, and they actually quote the investigator extensively - they're not just paraphrasing. If they're making this up, it will be a HUGE scandal. They had to do some heavy vetting before running with this. They're not going to risk their entire reputation on it.

Quoting hivue (Reply 225):
Weren't they the ones who reported before the press conference that nothing could be recovered from the CVR?

Can someone provide a link to that? I don't recall reading it, though I've seen several people mention it.
 
TheReckoner
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 9:32 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:03 am

From the evidence so far, it raises the question of whether the cockpit should be locked down as tightly as it is.
 
trex8
Posts: 5694
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:05 am

If the door can be put into Lock mode by simply toggling a switch maybe the pilot in the cockpit had some medical event, stroke severe enough to affect his judgement but not make him totally disabled/paralyzed, in his confused state he may have set the descent by accident while trying to do something else. How easy would that be with someone fumbling at the controls?? Same with the toggle switch in the door. Can a pilot reach for that toggle switch from their seat or would it really need someone to get out of the seat?
 
Rivet42
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 209):
Actually, the "discipline" (that I am coming more and more to feel is stonewalling) and the incendiary nature of this information would be the classic set-up for a whistle-blower to act. And a military official might actually be lauded for bringing security issues to the fore where civil authorities dither in trepidation.

Utter nonsense.
Given the tragic events that are being investigated, the nightmarish implications of such leaks, coupled with the over-riding need to respect the feelings of those mourning their friends & relatives, this is absolutely the wrong time to use the 'whistle-blower' excuse to feed sensational titbits to the media.

Riv'
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:15 am

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 33):
Were there any cell phone calls from the ill-fated passengers? If not, that points to their being incapacitated, unless phone coverage was unavailable in the area of the flight.

Or the passengers obeyed the rule to switch off the phones. Most of them were Germans, who are used to obey instructions.

Jabn
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6

Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:17 am

Part 7 ready:

Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7 (by bnatraveler Mar 25 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks.

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