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bnatraveler
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Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:45 am

Rolling to part 7

Part 6 is here: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 6 (by bnatraveler Mar 25 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
MD88CLE
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:48 am

Reply to previous thread:

Quoting hivue (Reply 222):
No lockout override engaged, no need for a FA on the flight deck.

That seems like an odd rationale to me, but perhaps that is the one here.

Quoting capri (Reply 227):
Unfortunately, I have been on some of LCC carriers and sitting upfront for legroom, and I have seen pilots step out, but no F/A goes in, all they did was pull curtain and stand there until pilot goes back or finish his chat or just relaxing For a bit especially this happens on flight over 3 hrs I have been on.

That's pretty disconcerting, and seems to me to be ignoring past lessons rather blatantly.
 
airtechy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:50 am

I said several years ago that the locked cockpit door seemed to have stopped terrorist passenger entry. Maybe they have figured out that it's a lot easier to start from within the cockpit. It would be interesting to know what religion the pilot/pilots followed. That seems to have been a factor in past pilot suicides.

Thoughts?
 
Martin2008
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:52 am

One of the pilot's names is making the rounds on twitter, cited to the NY Post. I couldn't find anything on NY Post to confirm, but did a google search and came up with this:

https://vatstats.net/flights/1802506
 
capri
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:54 am

Quoting Martin2008 (Reply 3):

Those are flight sim community names
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:55 am

Quoting MD88CLE (Reply 1):
Reply to previous thread:

Quoting hivue (Reply 222):
No lockout override engaged, no need for a FA on the flight deck.

That seems like an odd rationale to me, but perhaps that is the one here.

Quoting capri (Reply 227):
Unfortunately, I have been on some of LCC carriers and sitting upfront for legroom, and I have seen pilots step out, but no F/A goes in, all they did was pull curtain and stand there until pilot goes back or finish his chat or just relaxing For a bit especially this happens on flight over 3 hrs I have been on.

That's pretty disconcerting, and seems to me to be ignoring past lessons rather blatantly.

Every airline had a different procedure. One airline I was with the FA went into the cockpit, my current airline they don't....
 
ikramerica
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:55 am

Frankly, I think during every crash, there is a claim that "one pilot was locked out" and that usually isn't the case. So let's take it all with some salt. My comment is only theoretically what could happen on any plane, NOT what specifically happened here.

Quoting capri (Reply 150):
Why don't add also in speculation that really F/a entered cockpit after pilot left, and then incapacitated the pilot somehow, and the f/a put stick forward and that's the one that committed suicide, I know it's getting crazy, but any scenario is possible nowadays?

---

Plausible I guess.

Again, this is not meant to impugn ANYONE. It's only a question of how one person could take over the cockpit and cause a crash.

In theory there is nothing stopping one flight deck officer from knocking out other and doing it without having to lock anyone out, either. If your intention is to harm everyone, why would you need to lock the other person out. Then again, if it's suicide and you don't have the stomach for physical violence, then knocking someone out isn't the easiest thing to do.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:55 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 2):
I said several years ago that the locked cockpit door seemed to have stopped terrorist passenger entry. Maybe they have figured out that it's a lot easier to start from within the cockpit. It would be interesting to know what religion the pilot/pilots followed. That seems to have been a factor in past pilot suicides.

Thoughts?

Regardless of whether it's a suicidal pilot, an ISIS sympathizer, or an accidental lock-out prior to a medical emergency, new procedures will now need be instituted ....
 
spacecadet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:55 am

Reposting from part 6 (my post went in after the lock):

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 181):
Since 9/11, the cockpit door is designed to keep people out.

Just throwing this out there, but I wonder how many people the post-9/11 regulations have now killed vs. how many they've saved. I realize the second number would be difficult to quantify due to the deterrent effect, but it seems like some tweaking to the regs might be in order.

Quoting USWings (Reply 192):
Would the passengers have been aware of the other pilot trying to get back in?

I don't see why they wouldn't have been. In all the A320's I've flown in, the passengers have a clear view of that area of the plane.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 206):
If this turns out to be an accident caused by pilot suicide

That's an oxymoron.

Quoting sandsofly (Reply 219):
NYT is one of the few news sources doing their
Own investigations. It makes it very credible.

Right, and they actually quote the investigator extensively - they're not just paraphrasing. If they're making this up, it will be a HUGE scandal. They had to do some heavy vetting before running with this. They're not going to risk their entire reputation on it.

Quoting hivue (Reply 225):
Weren't they the ones who reported before the press conference that nothing could be recovered from the CVR?

Can someone provide a link to that? I don't recall reading it, though I've seen several people mention it.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Martin2008
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting capri (Reply 4):
Those are flight sim community names

Got it. Thanks!
 
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alberchico
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:59 am

Thought I'd post this video again, its quite informative regarding cockpit entry procedures

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

How could they know it was a pilot banging on the door trying to get in ? Wouldn't it make more sense if it was one of the flight attendants trying to get into the cockpit with both pilots having blacked out ?

[Edited 2015-03-25 19:00:27]
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WarRI1
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:03 am

I have not read all the replies, so I may have missed this point, but if this was a terrorist act, would not a terrorist try to cause more death and destruction by heading for another target other than a mountain, for more death and destruction ?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
jetterrosie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:05 am

Reposting from Part 6 because I think this is important for posters to keep in mind...

Everyone please take a moment before you post to remember that loved ones, colleagues and media are reading this forum. Having been through an accident involving fatalities in my career I can tell you that it is heart wrenching to go through all the comments and stories whilst you desperately search for answers that your company can't give you due to regulations around crash investigations. They aren't allowed to speculate or offer conjecture, so in this day and age, in desperation, you find yourself searching the news media and forums like this for clues to help you make sense of it all. One of my worst memories is this very thing...it nearly drove me insane. By all means speculate, this is an aviation forum after all where people come to discuss professional opinions. But try to have some respect...every time you type a post think that a family member of someone who was lost (including those of a pilot) might be reading it then edit accordingly.
 
capri
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 10):

That's very plausible which brings us to why the delay of giving more infos as they are trying to analyse crew voices from
Various previous recordings or asking colleagues to identify voices if capable, hence the delay and silence from investigators ?
Just my wild guess
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to know what religion the pilot/pilots followed. That seems to have been a factor in past pilot suicides.

Does it? That would be pretty difficult to prove, without concrete evidence of a plan by the pilot(s). In all of the cases of pilot-initiated crashes, none have revealed a concrete motive, lending itself to speculation. However, in all of them, the general opinion was that these pilots (Silkair 185, Egyptair 990, and LAM 470) suffered a personal or financial hardship (let's not forget the Air Botswana incident), that *may* have triggered their actions. As far as I've read, none of those incidents referenced their religion as a possible motive.
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MD88CLE
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting capri (Reply 13):
That's very plausible which brings us to why the delay of giving more infos as they are trying to analyse crew voices from
Various previous recordings or asking colleagues to identify voices if capable, hence the delay and silence from investigators ?
Just my wild guess

I would imagine there would be a myriad of reasons not to give out more information yet, and not just due to concern about something like that. It could be as simple as information potentially being misleading on the face of it, and they're trying to avoid pointing news media in one particular direction when that might not be what really happened.
 
Klaus
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 10):
How could they know it was a pilot banging on the door trying to get in ? Wouldn't it make more sense if it was one of the flight attendants trying to get into the cockpit with both pilots having blacked out ?

That could be an extremely pertinent reason to hold back on premature descriptions of the CVR's content, especially before previous identifiable samples of the pilots' voices have been compared.

Either way, the NYT report may now be forcing BEA's hands to counter this claim with anything related to the content of the recording whether they want to or not.


This is a horrible ordeal for the families and friends of the victims already. It is sad beyond measure. 
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:12 am

So I finished watching the video about Airbus cockpit door procedures, posted at the end of the last thread. It was a good one, so I'll repost alberchico's comment:
--------------------------------------

User currently onlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2984 posts, RR: 0
Reply 211, posted Wed Mar 25 2015 16:25:26 your local time (43 minutes 49 secs ago) and read 5890 times:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

This video might shed some light on cockpit entry procedures...
---------------------------------------------

From watching the video, assuming that this is the same system in use on the Germanwings A320s,

There's a five-second window during which someone outside the cockpit with the code can get in after punching in an override code, after a continuous 30-second alert is sounded inside the cockpit that someone wants in. The pilot in the cockpit can override the external override during that 30-second period and keep the door locked, if I view the video correctly (this isn't completely clear). Seems to me that if a pilot happened to become incapacitated and somehow accidentally hit the door-lock switch, it would take a heck of a coincidence for that switch to repeatedly get hit again during the 30-second warning if the locked-out pilot kept trying to input the override code.

It sure doesn't look good to me that a locked out pilot couldn't get back in during 8 minutes.

 
 
vr-hkg
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 17):
From watching the video, assuming that this is the same system in use on the Germanwings A320s,

There's a five-second window during which someone outside the cockpit with the code can get in after punching in an override code, after a continuous 30-second alert is sounded inside the cockpit that someone wants in. The pilot in the cockpit can override the external override during that 30-second period and keep the door locked, if I view the video correctly (this isn't completely clear). Seems to me that if a pilot happened to become incapacitated and somehow accidentally hit the door-lock switch, it would take a heck of a coincidence for that switch to repeatedly get hit again during the 30-second warning if the locked-out pilot kept trying to input the override code.

It sure doesn't look good to me that a locked out pilot couldn't get back in during 8 minutes.

Was going to reply to your post on the previous thread, but it's closed now. You need to watch the video more closely -- it's not just a toggle switch, but rather has to be pulled upwards before you can change its position. The chances of that happening by mistake are pretty much nada.
 
flyzapper
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:18 am

I posted this just as part 6 was locked.
The news about one pilot being unable to return to the cockpit made me think of Ethiopian flight 702 last year. The co-pilot locked the door while the pilot went to the restroom, then hijacked/took the airplane to Geneva and refused to land until he was granted asylum in Switzerland. Clearly, it is possible for one member of the flight crew to take over the aircraft and do what he or she wants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_702
 
Viscount724
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting flyzapper (Reply 19):
The news about one pilot being unable to return to the cockpit made me think of Ethiopian flight 702 last year. The co-pilot locked the door while the pilot went to the restroom, then hijacked/took the airplane to Geneva and refused to land until he was granted asylum in Switzerland.

He has never been granted asylum in Switzerland. He remains in a Swiss prison awaiting charges and an eventual trial. The Swiss investigation seems to be taking a long time.

He was convicted in absentia in an Ethiopian court just a week or so ago and sentenced to 19 years and 6 months in prison, but that's academic as Switzerland has refused to extradite him so any prison term he may eventually receive (less time served so far) will be served in Switzerland.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/4d3a510...enced-to-20-years-in-jail-20152003

[Edited 2015-03-25 19:33:19]
 
jetterrosie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting MD88CLE (Reply 15):

As I said in my earlier post, I have been through an accident in my career and information is surprisingly scant. The first e-mail we got was telling us there was a suspected problem with a flight and to head to a meeting and not send e-mails, the second was telling us that we weren't to discuss anything at all with anyone. This was according to regulated protocol and not our company being callus. It was days before we got any kind of official information even though it was our company that was affected. We found out most of our info from the news, not because our management were incompetent or trying to hide something, but because as soon as an accident happens the NTSB takes over (can't speak for how it works with non-NTSB governed accidents) and you have to abide by their rules regarding the release of information. And also because, due to today's technology, when they do release news it is normally moments after your company gets it. So whilst your company is still figuring out how to contact bereaved loved ones and how to tell their staff who they have lost and why, the news media are already reporting the story.

My point is that lack of info on pilot names, nationalities, early suspected causes is not a conspiracy or even a red flag for a cover up or a signal that they know more than they are saying, it's just how the system works after a crash. Never forget that the company is still reeling at a personal level from the tragedy, even their PR folks and senior management. You can't expect them to give info at the same speed that the internet does.
 
trex8
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:23 am

Are the over ride codes unique for each plane? Do they get changed regularly? Could the pilot trying to get in have been confused /forgot the code he needed? If its a code he needs for each flight he may have forgotten it, especially if there is a high stress situation going on or he may have the code on a piece of paper or on his phone which is in the cockpit.
 
dfambro
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 17):
From watching the video, assuming that this is the same system in use on the Germanwings A320s,

that's a fairly recent video about a new door system, but this was a rather old 320. So maybe not a good assumption that the video is depicting the system actually installed on the Germanwings plane.
 
flyzapper
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Reply 20

You missed my point. It doesn't matter what happened to the pilot of the Ethiopian flight. I was illustrating the fact that very recently, a pilot locked all others out of the cockpit of a large commercial airliner and did whatever he wanted with it until he got his demands.
I think that these incidents might cause a re-evaluation of policy when it comes to pilots being alone in the cockpit.

[Edited 2015-03-25 19:28:43]
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting vr-hkg (Reply 18):
Was going to reply to your post on the previous thread, but it's closed now. You need to watch the video more closely -- it's not just a toggle switch, but rather has to be pulled upwards before you can change its position. The chances of that happening by mistake are pretty much nada.

I've watched it 4 times and just re-watched it. I thought that too at first, and so removed my last post on the last thread. But then I finished watching it and I do not see what you're seeing. In the video, the toggle switch must be pulled up to take it between the NORM and UNLOCK position, but unless the video editing fools me, it goes straight from NORM to LOCK without being pulled up. The pilot merely flips it. Check the video beginning at 3:00 to see what I mean. I wish an Airbus driver could weigh in.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting flyzapper (Reply 24):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Reply 20

You missed my point. It doesn't matter what happened to the pilot of the Ethiopian flight. I was illustrating the fact that very recently, a pilot locked all others out of the cockpit of a large commercial airliner and did whatever he wanted with it until he got his demands.

I was only correcting the statement that he was granted asylum in Switzerland.
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting dfambro (Reply 23):
that's a fairly recent video about a new door system, but this was a rather old 320. So maybe not a good assumption that the video is depicting the system actually installed on the Germanwings plane.

The copyright at the end of the film says 2002 - obviously being an early post-9/11 system. So actually the fact that it was an old plane makes it more likely that the video is accurate?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
Frankly, I think during every crash, there is a claim that "one pilot was locked out" and that usually isn't the case.

No. That wasn't claimed on Air Asia or AF447 or many others. Reports of pilots being locked out of cabins typically occur when a pilot has been locked out of a cabin.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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United787
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:35 am

On CNN they stated that on the A320, the lock mode is spring loaded so it would have to be held in that position to keep someone from entering using a code. I think that rules out medical emergency.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 5):
Every airline had a different procedure. One airline I was with the FA went into the cockpit, my current airline they don't....

I am curious to know LH's procedures on this...
 
dfambro
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 27):

The copyright at the end of the film says 2002 - obviously being an early post-9/11 system. So actually the fact that it was an old plane makes it more likely that the video is accurate?

Aha, I see. I was looking at the publication date for the video
 
Klaus
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:40 am

Quoting jetterrosie (Reply 21):
My point is that lack of info on pilot names, nationalities, early suspected causes is not a conspiracy or even a red flag for a cover up or a signal that they know more than they are saying, it's just how the system works after a crash.

Under these circumstances (with no direct witnesses, one recorder still missing and the circumstances rather non-obvious) I would have been very surprised if they had released any conclusions now already. Unfortunately the NYT story may not leave them all that much of a choice now, which is problematic to say the least, as impatient as everybody understandably is. But premature conclusions which had to be retracted later would be a really bad thing.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 23):
that's a fairly recent video about a new door system, but this was a rather old 320.

Yes, but it has been said that this plane had been retrofitted rather diligently. At the very least after 9-11 they would have upgraded the cockpit door in any case, I would presume.
 
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litz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:46 am

the chances of Lufthansa of all airlines not keeping up with maintenance and upgrades is highly unlikely.

firstly, LH is most definitely a first-rate first world airline.

secondly, they're German ... not a chance at all that airplane wasn't maintained to the nth degree.
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting litz (Reply 32):
firstly, LH is most definitely a first-rate first world airline.

secondly, they're German ... not a chance at all that airplane wasn't maintained to the nth degree.

rules...and assumptions...are made to be broken...but I hope I'm wrong...
DISCLAIMER: Airliners.net is an AIRBUS forum. Boeing Commercial Airplanes, if it has considered doing so in the past, should in no way consider supporting this website.
 
jetterrosie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting jetterrosie (Reply 21):

I missed the window for editing my earlier post and I feel bad because I may have painted the NTSB in a bad light re post-accident comms. So I'm sorry it may not be relevant to this thread but they were amazing during our accident. I can't find enough good things to say about them - apologies for not making that clear in my earlier post. I would hate for an NTSB employee read my earlier post and feel like I was negative about them.
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting dfambro (Reply 30):
Aha, I see. I was looking at the publication date for the video

No worries. The video looks quite modern. I do wonder whether that locking mechanism in the video is a very standard Airbus unit, or whether there are several permutations.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting litz (Reply 32):
secondly, they're German

Germans are more organized than humans.  

In the 13+ years since 9/11/01, I'm sure this aircraft was retrofitted with a compliant cockpit door.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Klaus
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting litz (Reply 32):
secondly, they're German ... not a chance at all that airplane wasn't maintained to the nth degree.

I wouldn't ascribe it to that alone, really, but at least as far as I've heard the Germanwings aircraft are supposed to be maintained to the same standards as the main line ones (by Lufthansa Technik).

If there should be any nuances in that regard (Germanwings being a LCC division), we'll undoubtedly learn about it soon.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
Germans are more organized than humans.

I sometimes wish there was more to that stereotype in reality...!

[Edited 2015-03-25 19:56:58]
 
vnangia
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:57 am

If you watch that cockpit access video, it notes that in case the switch is moved to "lock" so that the door is locked out, it's a five minute lockout. Given the descent was 8+ minutes, unless the lockout time period has changed, would suggest that it's unlikely to have been accidental.

I'd like to believe that this is a horrible set of coincidences, but I'm honestly at a loss here to explain this other than intentional right now. If the video is correct in saying it's a 5-minute lockout, and the FR data is correct in saying it was an 8-minute descent, there doesn't seem to be any other reasonable explanation. Seems like even if the remaining officer was working through some emergency, he/she could easily reach over and open the door to allow the other pilot in.

I hope I'm wrong though. That's salt in a raw gaping wound, if true.

[Edited 2015-03-25 19:58:09]
 
dc10lover
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:04 am

Anyone have the names of the pilot and co pilot?
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
MD88CLE
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting vnangia (Reply 38):
I'd like to believe that this is a horrible set of coincidences, but I'm honestly at a loss here to explain this other than intentional right now. If the video is correct in saying it's a 5-minute lockout, and the FR data is correct in saying it was an 8-minute descent, there doesn't seem to be any other reasonable explanation. Seems like even if the remaining officer was working through some emergency, he/she could easily reach over and open the door to allow the other pilot in.

I think it's still too early to jump to conclusions, even if the scenario NYT seems to be posing is correct. At 8 minutes, that's only roughly 3 minutes longer than the 5 minutes. By the time the other pilot finished what they were doing, went to return and discovered that there was an issue, a good amount of time could have passed. And if the other pilot was in distress, perhaps they simply did the opposite of what they had intended.

But at this point I'm still loathe to trust the NYT report until we have confirmation.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 5):
Every airline had a different procedure. One airline I was with the FA went into the cockpit, my current airline they don't....

  

I won't name the airline, but on a 1 hour flight last year the Captain came out of the cockpit to use the lav just before the descent. A FA just stood between the Lav / galley area and row 1 until the Captain finished and returned to the cockpit. The FO was left in the cockpit alone as there were only the 2 usual pilots on that particular flight. I know this because I was seated in 1C and the plane was an A320 so I could see what was going on.

So each airline has its own procedures, and there are some which allow for one pilot to be in the cockpit alone at certain times. Also, regardless of the procedures, there is no guarantee that such procedures are always followed anyway...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:08 am

Terrible news. Thoughts and prayers with the families, friends, and employees.

The news about the pilots locked out of the cockpit for 8 minutes, if true, is very troubling. But it's still early.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 7):
Regardless of whether it's a suicidal pilot, an ISIS sympathizer, or an accidental lock-out prior to a medical emergency, new procedures will now need be instituted ....

Let's wait to *find* the problem before we fix it.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
jetterrosie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):

And there lies the problem Klaus. The airline will feel pressured by media and their own people to say something. It takes a very strong CEO/President to resist that public pressure to make a comment when they are being bombarded with the same info we are. And he/she is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Look at the criticism being aimed at MH post their accidents. Leaving aside how well they handled it, they had an unprecedented situation to deal with, they didn't know how to handle it and understandably messed up sometimes. Thus why the NTSB regulations of not saying anything to anyone before they approve it makes sense. They are kind of like the impartial guardians of a crash...they know the company and staff are emotionally invested plus have future customers/stakeholders/revenue to deal with, so if an independent body who doesn't have that very personal emotional connection takes over the company should be able to get on with their own business. Which would work just fine if it wasn't for the conspiracy theory crew and the media desperate for an instant answer.
 
764
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:14 am

Somehow I am very sad to see that once again a lot of fellow a.netters are happy to jump to the conclusion that foul play must be the cause. As far as I know, Germanwings does not require an F/A to enter the flight deck when one of the flight crew goes to the bathroom. So the remaining crew member would be by him or herself. If something were to happen to them (stroke, heart attack, whatever), there would be nobody in there. No why the door was locked remains to be answered. But I am very afraid that in this case the "terrorism proofing" may have actually cost 150+ lives. And the glide path seems consistent with uncontrolled flight, doesn't it? .
 
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litz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:15 am

Pages 18 and 20-32 here might be of interest ...

http://nicmosis.as.arizona.edu:8000/...DSC%20Aircraft%20Systems_part2.pdf

Of particular interest is the following passage regarding the "lock" position on the control knob :

Quote:
LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ;
emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a
preselected time (5 to 20 min).

So it IS theoretically possible to disable entry for a period of time that could, possibly, have exceeded the amount of time the plane had in the air, from the initiation of the action, to impact.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:20 am

Quoting 764 (Reply 44):
But I am very afraid that in this case the "terrorism proofing" may have actually cost 150+ lives.

It's not the terrorism-proofing that was the problem. It was the absence of a policy that is common in the US, and/or it was an intentional act.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:24 am

If it bears out, the news about a pilot being locked out is deeply troubling. However it should be remembered that it worked to the advantage on the JetBlue flight thee years ago.

[Edited 2015-03-25 20:28:04]
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
bond007
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting 764 (Reply 44):
Somehow I am very sad to see that once again a lot of fellow a.netters are happy to jump to the conclusion ...But I am very afraid that in this case the "terrorism proofing" may have actually cost 150+ lives. And the glide path seems consistent with uncontrolled flight, doesn't it? .

Didn't you just do exactly what you are "very sad to see" .... 

The glide path actually seems very consistent with controlled flight ...depending on how you look at it.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:31 am

There was thread last month regarding contaminated air and how it could cause severe medical issues and in at least one case the death of BA pilot.

The article below goes into more detail and according to KLM, pilots have been incapacitated in flight.

I recognize this does not cover the lock out issues but thought it worth posting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...r-toxic-fumes-in-plane-cabins.html

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