Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 7

wilco737 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:48 am

Why is everybody so obsessed about the names of the crew on board!?

What different does it make if you know their names?!

The police is investigating who they are and what the did and what experience they have etc.

That is enough.

wilco737

Delta777Jet · Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 145):
does the company employ Pay2Fly Pilots?

Doesn't mean anything, what's the difference if someone want to commit suicide doing it under a P2Fly scheme or directly employed.

The fact that the captain left the cockpit after reaching cruise level makes totally sense. The plane was nowhere near to T/D. So even if the F/O was becoming incapacitated during the captain absent, why on earth he put the descend into the autopilot to descend into the ground ? Its also remarkable that the plane hit the first mountain group it could basically catch. The pressure on board seemed also to be okay, because else how the captain can knock on the door or even try to open the door by feet.

So if this reports are true, it was 99.9 %, suicide, there is probably no other possibility.

PanHAM · Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 139):
To be honest though, it seems pretty hard to have safety mechanisms in place to significantly alleviate the risk of a rogue pilot?

We're in Europe. I did not mention "rogue" pilots and pilots here usually don't carry guns either. If a door cannot be opened it wuld be a safety risk because if a Pilot passes out in tzhese 2 minutes there would be no one able to open that door.
IMHO an intolerable safety risk. Regardless if that happed to this flight or not. Sitting in one of the front rows one can usually see the pilots going to the rest room and there is never a FA taking the seat in the Cockpit.

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:00 am

Wouldn't a suicidal pilot just kill the FA anyway?

The FA in the cockpit would only help with an incapacitated pilot, not a criminal or suicidal one.

Delta777Jet · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 153):
Wouldn't a suicidal pilot just kill the FA anyway?

I believe it would be a further obstacle which not every suicidal want to try, because there is the possibility that it goes wrong and he can't fulfill the plan and get discovered.

The F/A in the cockpit procedure is a very good one.

I just watched the YouTube video on the A320 cockpit access procedure and it's clear now that if the captain could not get access to the cockpit, even in emergency mode, the door was put to lock position via the panel when tried opening.

[Edited 2015-03-26 01:12:09]

LXLucien · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:18 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 147):
No, all hired directly by Germanwings or Lufthansa itself. So no pay2fly at all. Zero.

Thanks!

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 151):
Doesn't mean anything, what's the difference if someone want to commit suicide doing it under a P2Fly scheme or directly employed.

I did not speculate about anything, it was a simple question. The rest was made up in your mind.

But I don't get this whole name thing, does it make a difference? So that people can go to his family or google around?
And what really bothers me is that the USA, namely the White House National Security Council, do come out and say that it's not a terrorist attack a few hours after the crash. Thank you very much USA for that information, but here in Europe things are a little different, not everything here is automatically terrorist motivated. It wasn't a American Airline, Aircraft or a flight from / to the USA, so why do they have to give their "senf dazu"?? I just had to say it although I might get a lot of bash now...

ManuCH · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:21 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 150):

Why is everybody so obsessed about the names of the crew on board!?

What different does it make if you know their names?!

The media are eager to know and report anything they can, to get more views, clicks and whatnot. That's just how it works, unfortunately. It's a widespread lack of respect in the media.

With that said, I still think speculating and guessing what might have happened is in order. We're all humans after all and we want to know, that's how we function. But as you said previously, it should be done in the most respectful way possible, certainly without trying to guess pilots' names, which are completely irrelevant.

wilco737 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 156):
The media are eager to know and report anything they can, to get more views, clicks and whatnot. That's just how it works, unfortunately. It's a widespread lack of respect in the media.

The media coverage of this accident is one of the worst I have seen... So much stupid things which are being brought up, things wrongfully quoted etc...

I konw the names of the crew, but what difference does it make? Cannot understand it.

wilco737

rlwynn · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:24 am

The co-pilot was only a bit over a year working and had a bit over 600 hours.

Ruscoe · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting leo467 (Reply 137):
I hope that whoever did this will be taken out of the investigation immediately and dealt with adequately.

Why would the BEA leak to the NY Times?

Is it an authorised or unauthorised leak?

Who benefits from the leak?

The 320 has been getting incredibly bad press here in OZ with headlines like "Fatally Flawed" and a big picture of the 320, another "Deadly Dive warnings" with sub headline of "Airlines Alerted to Flaws". It was all over the media, this morning but this afternoon the focus has now changed.

Whether the release is true or not, it has shifted attention from the aircraft to the crew, and while this may turn out to be true , it could be just plain horrible, and whatever the final determination, it is inappropriate at this point in time, so I certainly agree the leak should never have occurred.

Lets hope the NY Times isn't the Patsy.

Ruscoe

JimJupiter · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:25 am

Quoting leo467 (Reply 137):
Is it just me or are there others who find the actions of the leaking investigator and/or the nyt totally unacceptable?

You're certainly not the only one.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 150):
Why is everybody so obsessed about the names of the crew on board!?

Because some people scent a conspiracy by authorities in each and every event. The MH370-threads are a good example of that hunt for "the truth", and the tinfoil is very strong in those.

macc · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:27 am

I hope authorities will have a look into the leak. If all of that is true, then that person has to be found and prosecuted.

Niki Lauda was on screen during a german talk show last night and critisised authorities as to not commenting on the content of the CVR. I didnt agree with him. Even if the NYT article is true, its most probably too early to really know the exact story without some more facts. Was it suicide or medical would already make a huge difference. Think about the families of the pilots. They will have all bloodhounds right over them right now. Terrible!!

trex8 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 155):
It wasn't a American Airline, Aircraft or a flight from / to the USA, so why do they have to give their "senf dazu"??

Its a half American engine on the plane so US NTSB will undoubtedly be involved in the technical investigation. There are also now known to be at least 3 American nationals on the plane. Why they chose to talk about terrorists? Because its post 9/11. Logic has nothing to do with post 9/11 responses.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 158):
The co-pilot was only a bit over a year working and had a bit over 600 hours.

Curious where this info came from?

-Dave

wilco737 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:29 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 163):
Curious where this info came from?

German news report this. CP had 6000+ hours, FO about 600.

wilco737

F9Animal · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 150):
Why is everybody so obsessed about the names of the crew on board!?

What different does it make if you know their names?!

The police is investigating who they are and what the did and what experience they have etc.

That is enough.

I think you know why. It isn't politically correct, and likely offensive to some. With a potential sinister tragedy happening, and recent world events happening.... It isn't hard to guess as to why a name might raise a red flag. I won't just come out and say it, but I think I may have touched on the question you asked.

I hope you don't read what I typed as disrespectful in any way. I just know the question lingers, and the media is setting it's agenda. This is some of the worst media coverage to date on a crash. CNN is making me want to puke.

[Edited 2015-03-26 01:37:24]

deltal1011man · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:38 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 105):
I bet this will make some people rethink cockpit procedures, in my view its easily fixed by putting a small lav inside the cockpit...

It isn't not even remotely close to being that easy.

Policy change would probably help.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):

So, it is heard in the CVR mics the desperate attempt of said pilot to reenter the cockpit, but he can´t say or doesn´t know what was the reason for him leaving the cockpit in the first place? So any pilot just up an leaves his seat without saying anything to his fellow cockpit member? Nothing that registers on the mics?

I mean, if he gets up and starts to walk out where else is he going?

should be pretty easy to figure out he/she is going to the lav.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 153):

Wouldn't a suicidal pilot just kill the FA anyway?

its not so simple.
How does the pilot kill the FA?
How long does it take?

most people who are going to do it will be deterred by the FA simply because the risk that it goes wrong goes way up. (and in the US post 9/11 FA took and I assume still take self defense classes. They know some stuff.....)

sharles · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 157):
The media coverage of this accident is one of the worst I have seen... So much stupid things which are being brought up, things wrongfully quoted etc...

Yup. And they really are working on clickbaiting. For example, there is a lag when the media in our country translates the news and publishes them.
As a result, yesterday's sequence of events:
Black box found damaged
Damage determined to be insignificant
Media in my country publish headlines saying "Black box found damaged", without informing of the fact that the damage is already known to be unimportant.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 160):
You're certainly not the only one.

Not nearly the only one.

wilco737 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 167):

2 things in 25 years of operating A320?! This is something which is really bad, indeed... How many ten thousand flights without any problems and only 2 issues in all these flights!?

No words for such a post.

wilco737

PlanesNTrains · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 164):

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 163):
Curious where this info came from?

German news report this. CP had 6000+ hours, FO about 600.

Ok, thank you.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 166):
I mean, if he gets up and starts to walk out where else is he going?

should be pretty easy to figure out he/she is going to the lav.

I guess. I just think it's weird that nothing would be said. Even casually. But I guess some people just don't feel the need to communicate such stuff.

-Dave

tim73 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 169):

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 169):
2 things in 25 years of operating A320?! This is something which is really bad, indeed... How many ten thousand flights without any problems and only 2 issues in all these flights!?

No words for such a post.

Just please stop playing somekind of victim card here. These are very serious incidents.

Alfons · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 143):
Someone working @ LH could may be just reveal if the cockpit door can be opened from the captain in case the other pilot is incapacitated ?

Are you going to feel safer next time you fly with a friend of yours, a relative or even your own children (if you have), after you pushed someone in a million member Internet forum to publicize the howto for a human being to open a cockpit door?

....

wilco737 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:47 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 171):
Just please stop playing somekind of victim card here. These are very serious incidents.

i am not playing the victim card. but just because of 2 incidents the maintenance isn't generally bad... If something was wrong with the airplane, there will be investigation if something is going wrong.

And making baseless accusations is not helping either...

wilco737

dare100em · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 165):
I think you know why. It isn't politically correct, and likely offensive to some. With a potential sinister tragedy happening, and recent world events happening.... It isn't hard to guess as to why a name might raise a red flag. I won't just come out and say it, but I think I may have touched on the question you asked.

So it is. And why it maybe "political incorrect", recent events Show it is at least a possibilitie. OFC a classical suicide without any political motivation is also possible, but these events (like here) are rare for a reason because you have to be really mentally ill if you take 149 lifes including two babies and about 20 pupils as "colleteral damage". As a "normal" person if you just like to kill yourself you go on a mountain toop and jump or the-like...

pvjin · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 167):

Similar stuff has happened to other airlines with different aircraft models too.

Airbus747 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:52 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 169):

Usual aviation statistics again...

With all respect (as I am aware you are close to the situation and are not in the greatest of moods right now but...) I noticed you hadn't replied to one of my remarks earlier about how ratios are often carefully cherry-picked to gloss over aviation safety issues.

2 in 50,000 flights is an issue. 2 in 50 billion flights is an issue. 2 in 100 billion flights is still a big issue.

My point is: raw frequency doesn't really matter because when it happens the damage is usually greater per incident.

It's many more people's lives at stake simultaneously, as well as lots more money invested in safety and training, that it is obviously surprising that something can go wrong vs a car ending up in an accident because someone was drunk or distracted.

Again, I mean this with sincere respect and simply to represent this perspective of the discussion.

Am happy to discuss elsewhere / on a new topic.

CXfirst · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 164):
German news report this. CP had 6000+ hours, FO about 600.

Where they reporting A320 hours, or total hours?

-CXfirst

InsideMan · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:54 am

how the cockpit door functions is in the public domain, hell it was even published by Airbus. Look at the youtube video someone linked in this thread......

About the leak......
It's not surprising that senior military officials know about an ongoing BEA investigation. In France (former) military pilots etc. are often employed by aircraft manufacturers or work with the BEA. Why come forward with some info although the investigation is still underway?
Well, someone mentioned how the A320 was unfairly put in a very bad light by the press worldwide. If said military official has ties to Airbus or just feels very patriotic about a major french industry, he might want to shift the focus from the aircraft to the crew. Mission accomplished.

KarelXWB · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:55 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 167):
2008: Emergency landing on the way to Cologne, Germanwings A319. Pilots smell something bad and declare emergency, when landing they are barely concious despite oxygen masks and captain had to take six month sick leave.

2010: Germanwings A319 Crew start feeling ill, passengers all fallen sleep. Emergency landing to Dublin.

Something is clearly wrong with these planes and/or maintenance in Germanwings/Lufthansa.

Events like these happen every day with any airline and pilots are trained to deal with the situation.

wilco737 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 176):
2 in 50,000 flights is an issue. 2 in 50 billion flights is an issue. 2 in 100 billion flights is still a big issue.

Everything which goes wrong is an issue, for sure... No doubt about that.

But saying that the maintenance is bad generally due to 2 things which are not related to each other is simply baseless. That's what I am trying to say.

It is not something which happens daily or a lot more often.

wilco737

F9Animal · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:56 am

I had to turn CNN off.

Quoting dare100em (Reply 174):
So it is. And why it maybe "political incorrect", recent events Show it is at least a possibilitie. OFC a classical suicide without any political motivation is also possible, but these events (like here) are rare for a reason because you have to be really mentally ill if you take 149 lifes including two babies and about 20 pupils as "colleteral damage". As a "normal" person if you just like to kill yourself you go on a mountain toop and jump or the-like...

I am not disagreeing at all. It lingers in the back of my mind for sure. I was just trying to answer Wilco's question without raising anyone's blood pressure. Nobody can rule out suicide at this point, nor can we rule out it isn't a tragic accident. Whatever the cause may be, it won't bring back the beautiful lives lost.

I finally turned CNN off. I can't listen to another minute of it. I would tune to other news stations, but it seems like they are all reporting terribly. Some of these "experts" make me feel like vomiting! I have yet to see a good report, a report about the tragic loss of life. If I had a loved one on this flight, the media coverage would have me seeking mental health treatment.

Mastropiero · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:57 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 171):

I am sorry but these last posts rank high up in the list of most nonsensical posts here, not to mention how disrespectful the latter is. You are doing precisely what mainstream media adores doing: taking two incidents that have occurred, as Wilco so elocuently put, over a 25 years span and you turn them into a massive ground-the-whole-fleet problem.

@Wilco737, my condolences and sympathy and thank you for trying to keep us informed.

KarelXWB · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:57 am

Quote:
“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door, and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger, and no answer. There is never an answer.”

He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”

I wonder if the locked out pilot realized that the plane was descending. If so, it must have been 8 terrifying minutes for the guy.

Istanbuler83 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:58 am

As a flight attendant flying A320 family aircraft pretty much everyday. The door procedure is like this:

-with entering the code at the door, you make a request to open the door. the pilot can allow or deny it with "unlock or lock".
-if the pilot does not unlock the door. you can enter the emergency code (which is different than the regular one) and the door get automatically unlocked only after 5 MINUTES for only 30 SECONDS.

So, the question is, what is about the remaining 3 minutes?

sebolino · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:58 am

Even if this theory of a pilot locked up outside the cockpit is false, the problem remains.
Cockpit are locked up to avoid another suicidal hijacking, but by locking the cockpit up, it's obvious that there may be one day a problem for a pilot to enter. So what to do ?
If the pilot was really unable to enter, the 8 last minutes were really horrible.

sharles · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:01 am

Quoting Alfons (Reply 172):
Are you going to feel safer next time you fly with a friend of yours, a relative or even your own children (if you have), after you pushed someone in a million member Internet forum to publicize the howto for a human being to open a cockpit door?

Seriously, for one, it is in the public domain.
For two, it is the specific codes that matter. Nobody is going to publicize those.
For three, were a terrorist to want to open the door, he'd just buy a first class ticket near a window, and be near the cockpit door (lavatory) when the aircraft explosively decompresses. So why the theater?

tailskid · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 184):
So, the question is, what is about the remaining 3 minutes?

The person on the flight deck hits the lockout switch a second time.

curlyheadboy · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:02 am

What I find odd in the suicide scenario is that I think someone wanting to kill himself would just nose dive the airplane and crash it in the sea, what's the point of commanding a shallow descent lasting several minutes until you strike high ground?

Aesma · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:03 am

Do we know who has had access to the CVR file ? Must be a pretty short list, and someone might be looking for a new job...

Istanbuler83 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:06 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 184):

Quoting tailskid (Reply 187):
The person on the flight deck hits the lockout switch a second time.

I am not sure about that. I think, in the case of an emergency code entry, the door will be unlocked anyways.

tailskid · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:07 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 189):
Do we know who has had access to the CVR file ? Must be a pretty short list, and someone might be looking for a new job...

As has been pointed out, the leak may have been a sanctioned leak.

Why worry about a leak? There is no way to keep this kind of stuff out of the public domain when there are dozens of journalists about twisting every arm they can grab.

tailskid · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:08 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 190):
I am not sure about that. I think, in the case of an emergency code entry, the door will be unlocked anyways.

No it won't. The person in the flight deck has absolute control over the door.

garpd · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 190):

I am not sure about that. I think, in the case of an emergency code entry, the door will be unlocked anyways.

So far, all the information we have states otherwise. Overrides can be overridden in the cockpit.

It appears, that if the person in the Cockpit doesn't want anyone in there, no one is getting in, short of somehow removing the door.

diverted · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:13 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 171):
Just please stop playing somekind of victim card here. These are very serious incidents.

Victim card?

I'm sorry, as I am fairly new myself, but Wilco is one of the most respected users on here, who, I can guarantee you, knows WAY more about the inner workings and goings on at LH or 4U.

http://avherald.com/

In the past week or so, AC had a 320 land with ECAM displays blank, AV had a RTO due engine failure, EI had a 320 with a FO incapacitated.

I'm not pointing any fingers towards the 320's, but when you have more than 4000 of a type of aircraft flying around, there will be incidents from time to time.

tailskid · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:13 am

Here's a quote from one of the "a.net experts"

"If I don't want anybody entering the cockpit there is nothing people on the outside can do"
Pihero

The quote is found early in the MH370 thread.

kl911 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:14 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 171):
Just please stop playing somekind of victim card here.

Please stop being so disrespectful to victims and LH/4U staff. My advise to you, sit back, relax, and wait till the investigation is over.

Aesma · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:14 am

I remember a thread some time ago (probably about the hijacked Ethiopian flight) that said that there was indeed a way to enter the cockpit if you knew where to punch inside a galley closet or something like that, anyone want to comment on this ?

Quoting tailskid (Reply 191):
As has been pointed out, the leak may have been a sanctioned leak.

Why worry about a leak? There is no way to keep this kind of stuff out of the public domain when there are dozens of journalists about twisting every arm they can grab.

Well you can be professional and wait a bit (we're talking hours or days at most here) for your organization to have analyzed the file before leaking.

My question was also about who was listening, foreigners for example.

TheSonntag · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:15 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 190):

I am not sure about that. I think, in the case of an emergency code entry, the door will be unlocked anyways.

In any case, I am sure around the world this security procedure will now have to be reviewed and changed, alone since this is actually confidential, but will now get so much media coverage that there is no more secrets remaining.

cuban8 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 184):
-if the pilot does not unlock the door. you can enter the emergency code (which is different than the regular one) and the door get automatically unlocked only after 5 MINUTES for only 30 SECONDS.

Even though I have not been flying for TK, I highly doubt it takes five minutes for the door to open if you push the emergency code. It's more like 30 seconds for that to happen.

KarelXWB · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 197):
I remember a thread some time ago (probably about the hijacked Ethiopian flight) that said that there was indeed a way to enter the cockpit if you knew where to punch inside a galley closet or something like that, anyone want to comment on this ?

That was a 767, not every aircraft is the same.

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