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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting mika (Reply 96):
Possible of course also that he in fact somehow managed to end his own life right after the captain exited and was locked out.

Not if it's true that "normal" (as opposed to excited or laboured) breathing could be heard on the recording right up to the impact.
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migair54
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 88):
It's official: "MARSEILLE PROSECUTOR - GERMAN CO-PILOT APPEARS TO HAVE CRASHED PLANE DELIBERATELY", says reuters.

This is terrible news!!!!, the problem with this issues is, how can we avoid?? Very difficult indeed, not the first case, remember Mozambique E190, Silk Air, Ethiopian B767 (luckily he just reroute), let's see if we ever know about MH 370...
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):

Three pilot rule? or a Flight Attendant always required in the cockpit?

I think the second is a given now. But it will also massively change the way people view the pilots. The secure door might have to re-considered. Maybe that you can only lock it with one pilot out, if a hidden emergency button is pressed in the cabin.

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:11:26]
 
ranold76
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:06 pm

I'd rather have the lock off the doors, than have them there.
At least if something nefarious is going on, regardless by crew or passenger in the cockpit, it can be mitigated by crew/passengers being able to access and address any nefarious issue.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:07 pm

I'm sure the answer is not simple, but could it be that it's easier to kill 149 people by flying into ground as killing a single person with your bare hands?

If this was indeed the FO as some media report, it's even stranger as he's supposed to be screened for bipolar disorder among other things: http://aviation-business-gazette.com...enter-Lubitz-Rheinland-Pfalz-.html

In any case, this will open the doors for self flying planes for sure. Humans are becoming the weakest link.

In the mean time, probably 2 people in cockpit at all times and possible review of door safety lock to have some kind of access from the outside...
 
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sebolino
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:08 pm

Emergency opening of the cockpit door, by Airbus:

www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x2kn0ph
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting mila (Reply 98):
Still no name of the co-pilot, could he be a radical muslim doing it in the name of IS?

Name has been released, it's a German name.
 
christopherwoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting mila (Reply 98):
Still no name of the co-pilot, could he be a radical muslim doing it in the name of IS?

I'm pretty sure that if this was terrorism the pilot wouldn't have flown it into a deserted mountain....
 
AI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:08 pm

Copilot has been named - Andreas Lubitz.
 
gpbcroppers63
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:09 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 99):
That's a sensible system, but it wasn't the one used on my last Ryanair flight (admittedly last year) when while they did put the fasten seatbelts light on, two FAs formed a human blockade at the front of the cabin instead of one of them entering it. On a previous flight they used two trolleys to physically block access to the cockpit door. Maybe they have a policy that allows the exact method to vary from flight to flight. This would be quite effective since it would make it much harder for would-be hijackers to devise a way of beating the system.

You could be right. An FA has definitely entered the cockpit the last few times I've seen it happen but I agree it would be a good way to keep "the bad guys" on their toes.
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EI320
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
Three pilot rule? or a Flight Attendant always required in the cockpit?

The latter I think.

I think we may have reached a point where it can no longer be considered acceptable to leave an individual alone in the cockpit after the aircraft has pushed back.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:10 pm

Still, I wouldn't want planes being able to be controlled remotely, as that ability could be hacked. RE: Airline or Govt. remote takeover of a plane.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 72):
Maybe noone at Lufthansa has ever thought that a pilot would commit suicide. That wouldn't even be in their books. But it could be an option now.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
Three pilot rule? or a Flight Attendant always required in the cockpit?

Federal Express Flight 705, one man against three almost succeeded in crashing the plane.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 93):
That will change the industry.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
Three pilot rule? or a Flight Attendant always required in the cockpit?

It probably means that cockpit access procedures will change again in the nearby future.

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:13:50]
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N776AU
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:12 pm

Seems the more I read about this the more it actually does look like a pilot suicide. It does stand to reason that an Airbus A320 doesn't just fall out of the sky. It's one of the finest airplanes ever built.
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PanHAM
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:13 pm

Only the first Name of the FO is mentioned in the press so far and that he came from Montabaur a City between Frankfurt and Cologne, he was in his mid 20s and lived with his parents and also had a domicile in Duesseldorf.

It will indeed Change something in the industry, as of immediately the US procedure to have a FA in the Cockpit when one of the pilots leave should be adapted. Germany might even have to change the law (Luftverkehrsgesetz) for that, if so., legislature should proceed on that today.

How many cases of pilots suicide / mass murder do we have now? Starting with the MS flight from JFK? How can a guy who completed Lh flight Training and has a bright future ahead of him do that?
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:13 pm

Th recording shows that when a warning sounded in the cockpit, the pilot frantically tried to get access but did not manage. There is a loud sound just before the crash, probably the plane hitting another mountain before the final crash. Bad stuff.
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Mortyman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
Flight Attendant always required in the cockpit

Would a flightattendant help on the situation if a pilot really wanted to ditch a plane ?
 
Derico
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:14 pm

Maybe there could be a way in the future to remotely unlock the door, through some remote device and in which 2 or 3 crewmembers must consent?
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trnswrld
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:14 pm

So if all this is true regarding the co-pilot, what is the background on this guy? Does he have a spotless record, or anything unusual going on this guys life?
Can you only imagine what the passengers must have been thinking seeing first hand the captain trying to force his way back in the cockpit with all sorts of yelling going on....all at the same time as the aircraft is starting a somewhat expeditious decent shortly after reaching cruise? unbelievable!! Since there was a fair amount of time in the descent, thats when the captain gathers up some big guys in the cabin and says lets break down this door!
Very sorry for all the people on this aircraft and families involved.
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:15 pm

Lack of imagination gets people killed. You have to imagine the worst case scenario and provide a way to work around it.

That said, I thought the door lock had a feature to allow locked out personnel to get in via the code. I think it's been discussed above but people are ignoring it. This could simply be a case of a suicidal co-pilot and a crash that might, I say might, have been avoidable if the pilot followed the correct access procedure? It had to be an extremely stressful situation.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 109):
God, people seem to have difficulty detecting sarcasm

Unfortunately far too many have exactly the opinion you expressed. I was clearly not the only one to miss it.

The simple way to ensure your intention is clear (especially in a thread like this), would be to use one of those emoticon things. You know, like this -->   
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SCQ83
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:16 pm

I am honestly not shocked.

This reminds me of MH370 where so many people here refused here to think about the suicide theory. I wonder thou what role that played in this accident. It is even pathetic that some posters here clicked the deletion button because some poster suggested the suicide theory.

In any case, I find ironic that so many people here are shocked. Maybe it is my nature, because I don't believe in superheros or supermen. Pilots are human beings, not Gods. Time for a change of that hierarchical structure. We have already seen a few accidents that happened because of the consideration of pilots as almighty, and FA as submissive subordinates.

Btw LH psychological tests? Seriously, anyone cold or psychopathic enough to kill 150 people would be able to fake a psy test.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:17 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 120):
That said, I thought the door lock had a feature to allow locked out personnel to get in via the code. I think it's been discussed above but people are ignoring it.

People are not ignoring it: you can't open the door once locked from the inside.
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sharles
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:17 pm

There may later be clear evidence of foul play. If I understand correctly, the person in the cockpit has to either repeatedly deny the permission to enter, or lock the mechanical backup. Which if I understand correctly cannot be bypassed in any way. So this might be clear on the CVR or maybe even physically determined from the lock's state after it is found.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 108):
In any case, this will open the doors for self flying planes for sure. Humans are becoming the weakest link.

In the mean time, probably 2 people in cockpit at all times and possible review of door safety lock to have some kind of access from the outside...

  
Exactly. The three pilot crew is not coming bag. FA in cockpit may become a rule. And the long term solution, yes, single pilot operation with ground override..
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 74):
Extremely unlikely does not mean zero, even its a 1% risk or less its a risk just as planes are extremely unlikely to fall out of the sky, its not zero %. Certain conditions such as heart rhythm problems (remember those professional athletes who just keel over and are dead on the field) or burst brain aneurysms may be essentially unpredictable on normal testing.

Professional athletes usually keel over due to undiagnosed hypertrophy (abnormal enlargement of the heart). Other cases withinin certain ethnic populations like black basketball players have been undiagnosed ARVD. Perhaps you meant to say "undetectable", but that is not the case either. The former is fairly easily detected on echo, while ARVD is a bit more difficult. The problem is a lot of athletes just take a resting ECG exam and nothing more. Anyone who is going to seriously stress their heart is wise to at least do an echo. These conditions affect anywhere from 0.05 to 0.2% of the general population depending on who you ask, and if you compare the total number of hours people spend playing football to the number who collapse dead on a field, I think you'll find this stuff is about as rare as plane crashes. I admit that's a guess, but that's a reasoned scientific guess.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 87):
"MARSEILLE PROSECUTOR - GERMAN CO-PILOT APPEARS TO HAVE CRASHED PLANE DELIBERATELY"

So, most tragically, Occam's razor proves true yet again. The simplest explanation, however improbable it may seem, is often true in the face of opposing complex hypotheses.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
a Flight Attendant always required in the cockpit?

If the sole pilot in the cockpit is determined to destroy the plane, an FA is unlikely to be much of a hindrance.
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sebolino
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:19 pm

Selon le procureur, les passagers "se sont rendu compte [de l'imminence du crash] au tout dernier moment, puisque dans la bande les cris n'interviennent que dans les derniers instants juste avant l'impact".

According to the prosecutor, the passengers were aware of the imminence of a crash at the very last moment. Screams are heard just before impact.



Maybe the copilot didn't want to alert the passengers, which explains the relatively slow descent.

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:21:47]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting N776AU (Reply 114):
Seems the more I read about this the more it actually does look like a pilot suicide.

French prosecutor Robin is quoted as saying:

Quote:

"Then we hear the commander asking the co-pilot to take over.

"Then we hear the sound of a chair being pushed back on the door closing.

"The co-pilot uses the flight monitoring system to start the descent of the plane.

"This action can only be voluntary - it is not automatic."



While that isn't a final verdict, it's a very strong statement, IMHO. Clearly there was no reason for the FO to start a descent shortly after the Captain leaves to use the toilet, especially without communicating to ATC.

Quote:

Mr Robin says the co-pilot "never said a word" in the 10 minutes before the crash.

He said he never answer a question or opened the door before the plane hit the ground.

He says the planes descent was "voluntary".


Seems the FO was a very sick man.

Ref: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...s-plane-crash-live-updates-5401806

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:27:40]
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Burkhard
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
How can a guy who completed Lh flight Training and has a bright future ahead of him do that?

The answer to this question could help to ensure this never to happen again.

The toll the post 9/11 measures take every day is beyond acceptable, they should be reconsiderated. They are there to improve safety, not to reduce it. Changing the overwrite time to 30 seconds should be the first step.
 
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yowza
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:20 pm

Copilot being blamed on TV right now by French prosecutor.
Claim is he intentionally crashed the aircraft.

YOWza

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:22:07]
 
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anfromme
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 104):
In any case, this will open the doors for self flying planes for sure. Humans are becoming the weakest link.

Interesting how quickly opinion sways from "surely a case of the computer having too much control" to "let's give computers even more control".
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RayChuang
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:20 pm

Right now, we need to find the contents of the flight data recorder (FDR). The FDR may tell us much of what happened before the plane started that fatal descent.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting hofimax (Reply 85):
Current investigation makes it very likely that co-pilot deliberately crashed plane

This is unbelievable! How can a pilot in good conscience fly 150 innocent people including school children and babies into the ground? I don't believe it for a second. That was the same story they fed us for MH370. When investigators are clueless, they come up with these crazy theories that of course nobody can disprove unless they were sitting in the cockpit right when it happened. There are surely other scenarios that are more plausible than this.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:20 pm

Pilot suicide according to the BBC. I just can't believe it.

It's so awful.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 120):
Lack of imagination gets people killed. You have to imagine the worst case scenario and provide a way to work around it.

That said, I thought the door lock had a feature to allow locked out personnel to get in via the code. I think it's been discussed above but people are ignoring it. This could simply be a case of a suicidal co-pilot and a crash that might, I say might, have been avoidable if the pilot followed the correct access procedure? It had to be an extremely stressful situation.

You lack imagination. The makers of the doors have considered the possibility that a crew member would be forced to compose the emergency code, so there is an override in the cockpit. If the pilot doesn't want you to enter, you're not going to enter.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting sharles (Reply 124):
People are not ignoring it: you can't open the door once locked from the inside.

If that's the case then this is one of the dumbest features every invented in the name of safety. I don't think that's the case though, I believe a code can be entered to override the lock for 5 seconds. I've heard a couple of versions, not sure which one, if any, is correct.
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TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:21 pm

I have no more words. If true and confirmed he should have taken the sailplane, not taking 149 people with you.
 
na
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting sparkingwave (Reply 134):
Pilot suicide according to the BBC. I just can't believe it.

Mass murder would be the more appropriate term, if findings so far are proven right.
 
n729pa
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:23 pm

The co-pilot of the Germanwings plane that crashed into the French Alps on Tuesday appeared to want to "destroy the plane", French officials said.

Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin, citing information from the "black box" voice recorder, said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit.

He intentionally started a descent while the pilot was locked out.

Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.

The co-pilot, now named as Andreas Lubitz, was alive until the final impact, the prosecutors added.

"We hear the pilot ask the co-pilot to take control of the plane and we hear at the same time the sound of a seat moving backwards and the sound of a door closing," Mr Robin told reporters.

"At that moment, the co-pilot is controlling the plane by himself. While he is alone, the co-pilot presses the buttons of the flight monitoring system to put into action the descent of the aeroplane.

"This action on the altitude controls can only be deliberate."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587
 
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WingsFan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting christopherwoo (Reply 107):
I'm pretty sure that if this was terrorism the pilot wouldn't have flown it into a deserted mountain....

That's correct. It appears that the co-pilot had his own issues that he could not leave on tarmac before taking off.
Let's see if this is attributed to terrorism or not. Further investigation will point to such things if it is the factor.

A terrible thing to happen no matter how you look at it.
 
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gbrazil
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 128):
While that isn't a final verdict, it's a very strong statement, IMHO.

It is a very strong statement and I find it untimely. It's only been two days and we're assigning blame? I wish no one would leak the CVR contents this soon.
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:24 pm

Quoting na (Reply 138):
Mass murder would be the more appropriate term, if findings so far are proven right.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Technically, it seems to have been a suicide PLUS 149 homicides.

Apologies, I'm reduced to nitpicking. This is so awful.
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LXLucien
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:24 pm

The problem will be that, instead of making less security feature (like removing the post 9/11 doors and so on) - the reaction will be the other way around by adding even more!
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sebolino
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:24 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 133):
This is unbelievable! How can a pilot in good conscience fly 150 innocent people including school children and babies into the ground? I don't believe it for a second. That was the same story they fed us for MH370. When investigators are clueless, they come up with these crazy theories that of course nobody can disprove unless they were sitting in the cockpit right when it happened. There are surely other scenarios that are more plausible than this.


Maybe a sorrow of love, this can be very powerful on your mind (and drive you literally crazy).

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:29:56]
 
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sebolino
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 136):
If that's the case then this is one of the dumbest features every invented in the name of safety. I don't think that's the case though, I believe a code can be entered to override the lock for 5 seconds. I've heard a couple of versions, not sure which one, if any, is correct.

Look at that:

www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x2kn0ph
 
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garpd
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:26 pm

I suspected pilot suicide immediately after the descent profile, lack of contact and lack of any attempt to correct the aircraft course became apparent. I just didn't post that here and such suggestions are always ridiculed. Also, a little disrespectful without full facts.

I know a Captain at Germanwings, not closely, but he's an acquaintance. I hope this was not his flight!
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ManuCH
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting AI (Reply 108):
Copilot has been named

I still don't understand why he had to be named. There are still data protection laws in place, so I wonder on what basis they took the leap and published his name.
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:27 pm

Still from Guardian Live:

"The family of the co-pilot have left Marseille and gone back."

God, the poor people.
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PanHAM
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 129):
The toll the post 9/11 measures take every day is beyond acceptable, they should be reconsiderated. They are there to improve safety, not to reduce it. Changing the overwrite time to 30 seconds should be the first step.

Fully agreed. The laws and procedures implemented after 9/11, starting from passenger searches to freight inspection to locked Cockpit doors in aircraft lack one thing: common sense,
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!

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