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oly720man
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 115):
How many cases of pilots suicide / mass murder do we have now? Starting with the MS flight from JFK? How can a guy who completed Lh flight Training and has a bright future ahead of him do that?

The human brain is a strange and complicated place. Everyone has their own perceptions and whatever you may consider as a great future/life for someone as you judge from the outside may not be perceived in the same way by the person you are judging.

It may be more telling to ask whether someone could have got got through such flight training if there were any signs, subtle or otherwise, of any personality disorders. You don't go from "normal" to flying a plane full of innocent people into a mountain without something having been triggered, somewhere.
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s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 131):
Interesting how quickly opinion sways from "surely a case of the computer having too much control" to "let's give computers even more control".

You need to understand the difference between existing procedural machines in place and new generation of machine learning... it might be that the current computers required for the task are still too heavy and too energy-consuming, but computers are still doubling the processing power every year. Note that this growth is exponential.

Once you have AI learning in all the planes flying around, it will learn really quick, and new experience is going to be shared and updated on the fly. Yes, there are still going to be casualties - but once something happens, it will never happen again.

First step will be 3-men cockpit with one of the men being AI, then we'll be back to 2 with one being a computer...
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:31 pm

I'm a bit unclear, so someone correct me

According to that YT Airbus vid about doors, if someone is locked out of the cockpit and can't get in due to no response from the pilot, then there's an override code which can be used to get in which unlocks the door for a specific time. So why didn't the pilot use this?
 
aloges
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:31 pm

I'm speechless. If this was media speculation... but it is a statement from a prosecutor!

Quoting garpd (Reply 146):
I suspected pilot suicide immediately after the descent profile, lack of contact and lack of any attempt to correct the aircraft course became apparent. I just didn't post that here and such suggestions are always ridiculed. Also, a little disrespectful without full facts.

It'd be the first thing you'd refuse to consider possible. I know I did.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
AI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:32 pm

Sorry if I have missed it, but is it certain that the copilot did this deliberately ??

Is there any possibility that the copilot became medically incapacitated & somehow crashed the plane. After all there was no response from him or any shouting from the copilot that we are aware of so he very well could have been unconscious.

AI.
 
aw70
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:33 pm

In the press conference, the prosecutor mentioned two loud noises: in particular, one loud bang that occurred a measurable time before the actual crash. He attributed this to the a/c hitting something else before actually impacting the mountain.

To me, this would be an indicator of an admittedly tiny, but still non-zero probability that the FO was somehow incapacitated at the time of impact. And that this event could, as unlikely as that now seems, still due to some kind of medical emergency, and not malice.

Because if you want to commit suicide, you don't fly a path where you graze some trees or rocks before impacting. You aim straight for the best vertical rock face you can find. You do not want to glance off anything.

Point in case: as described above, there are neurological emergencies that start with disorientation, confusion and irrational actions. And which render you unconscious in short order: but which do not immediately kill you. That is, your breathing does not stop. The FO could have slumped sideways in his seat, away from the sidestick, after dialing in a descent due to feeling woozy from oxygen starvation (a stroke has precisely that effect). All you would hear would be fairly normal breathing: detectably laboured breathing would only start later in most cases.

Trouble is, given that they will at best find tiny fragments of the chap, we will probably never know which of the two scenarios took place. If an intact body is found, a stroke can be diagnosed post-mortem without any problems. Here: well, not really. So unless he left an actual suicide note, this event will in all likelihood go down as a big mystery.

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:36:26]
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):

That the NY Times, considered to be leading and respected newspaper in the USA, published this allegation also shows a huge flaw in their editorial management, likely done to get more people to buy their paper or their subscription fee website.

They were spot on.

This is a sad day for aviation.

When you want to look for the next big terror attack, look for the glaring holes.

The pilot from within (now re enforced post 9/11) was the easiest way to commit terror on an airplane in the post 9/11 world.


This will lead to pilotless cockpits sooner rather than later. That's long term.

Short term, I would expect more mental screening, heavier back ground checks, and new security procedures.
 
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OA260
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 147):
I still don't understand why he had to be named.

It was on other forums /FB groups earlier so I guess it was not a secret after that. Very hard to keep things back with todays digital world.

Quoting BubbleFrog (Reply 148):
"The family of the co-pilot have left Marseille and gone back."
God, the poor people.

I know it must be the biggest shock of all and my heart goes out to them along with all the other people affected. Its just tragic and hard to understand maybe when they dig deeper into the background of the Co Pilot they may find something too early to tell.
 
mila
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 118):
Maybe there could be a way in the future to remotely unlock the door, through some remote device and in which 2 or 3 crewmembers must consent?

That could be one to go!
 
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sebolino
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 152):
According to that YT Airbus vid about doors, if someone is locked out of the cockpit and can't get in due to no response from the pilot, then there's an override code which can be used to get in which unlocks the door for a specific time. So why didn't the pilot use this?

I guess the guy in the cockpit can refuse to let the door open. If he doesn't react, it's automatically open for 5 seconds.
Am I wrong ?
 
aloges
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting AI (Reply 154):
Sorry if I have missed it, but is it certain that the copilot did this deliberately ??

I can't imagine that using the Flight Management System to descend below the Minimum Safe Altitude is something you do unconsciously.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
katekebo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 pm

BBC article clearly states that the co-pilot crashed the airplane on purpose:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587

Quote:
The co-pilot of the Germanwings plane that crashed into the French Alps on Tuesday appeared to want to "destroy the plane", French officials said.
Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin, citing information from the "black box" voice recorder, said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit.
He intentionally started a descent while the pilot was locked out.
Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.
However, passengers could be heard screaming just before the crash, he added.
The co-pilot, now named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, was alive until the final impact, the prosecutor said.

They must have enough evidence to make such a strong statement and quote all the facts, especially that the co-pilot was alive until the final moments.
I bet there must be many more details on the CVR recording but they won't share them for respect to the victims.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 152):
According to that YT Airbus vid about doors, if someone is locked out of the cockpit and can't get in due to no response from the pilot, then there's an override code which can be used to get in which unlocks the door for a specific time. So why didn't the pilot use this?

Because the person in the cockpit can throw the lever to lock position and reject the opening. The override only opens the door, if there is no reaction from within the cockpit.
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 146):
Look at that:

www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x2kn0ph

Incredible. They designed a system where either a suicidal pilot, or a bad guy who somehow got access to the cockpit, can keep everyone locked out, even those who have the access code. And for what reasoning? That the bad guy, knowing one of the attendants has the code, would kill them or force them to enter it? I think they would probably kill them anyway, code or no code, telling the pilots they will kill passengers one by one until they get entry.

There is no sane reasoning for a system like this. How sad, how very very sad.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 149):
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 129):
The toll the post 9/11 measures take every day is beyond acceptable, they should be reconsiderated. They are there to improve safety, not to reduce it. Changing the overwrite time to 30 seconds should be the first step.

Fully agreed. The laws and procedures implemented after 9/11, starting from passenger searches to freight inspection to locked Cockpit doors in aircraft lack one thing: common sense,

Every decision is a tradeoff between freedom and safety. Some may need to be re-calibrated. Clearly having a locking door is a good idea. Clearly having a way for all crew to unlock the door is a requirement. Clearly a four digit codes is a huge risk since a terrorist can force a crew member to reveal the code. Either the security needs to be strengthened via biometrics or indeed the pilots may need to have access to firearms to deal with the case where the code is compromised.

Dealing with a person who is deliberately trying to crash the aircraft is of course next to impossible.
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Burkhard
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 152):
According to that YT Airbus vid about doors, if someone is locked out of the cockpit and can't get in due to no response from the pilot, then there's an override code which can be used to get in which unlocks the door for a specific time. So why didn't the pilot use this?

Most likely he did, but this has a dely of 5 minutes to give the cockpit crew enough time to react - and These 5 minutes were too long in this case maybe...
 
SCQ83
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 147):

This has been confirmed by the authorities. So you think the most important issue now is to 'protect' his name?

Seriously the confirmation bias of some posters here is out of my mind.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 137):
If true and confirmed he should have taken the sailplane, not taking 149 people with you.

When people are psychologically disturbed for whatever reason, they can behave in a very irrational way completely stuck in their own little bubble.

I'm sure authorities will search in his background to find clues explaining his act.

A former Corsair pilot just said on Radio-Canada that if the co-pilot wanted to make a suicide attack, he could have simply crashed the aircraft on the nearby large city.
 
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Owleye
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:38 pm

Sorry for my first and only reply on this subject but I'm speechless. It's so sad, I feel paralized... maybe the crew/cockpit procedures should be re-viewed and changed.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 133):
This is unbelievable! How can a pilot in good conscience fly 150 innocent people including school children and babies into the ground? I don't believe it for a second.

Your reaction is natural but shows a lack of understanding about the complexity of the psyche and levels of despair and anguish it is capable of. Most of us have not been in that frame of mind and cannot relate to it. That does not mean however that it is unbelievable. Mental health is a complex topic, and mentally ill individuals have a range of reactions to their experience. Some are garden variety personality quirks, others are serious, and if left alone, can result in sinister if not deadly behaviors. Other people are high-functioning sociopaths, but that seems unlikely here. The point is, just because something is unbelievable, doesn't mean it is not within the realm of human capability and experience.

The painful thing is that this particular lesson has turned out to be extremely costly in terms of human life. We can only hope the families can come to terms with it somehow.

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:43:24]
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crimsonchin
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 162):
Because the person in the cockpit can throw the lever to lock position and reject the opening. The override only opens the door, if there is no reaction from within the cockpit.

Thank you. So basically if the switch is set to "lock", then the door won't open regardless of the override code?
 
AI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:39 pm

The whole act by the copilot - if it is deliberate, depended on the pilot leaving the cockpit. How could he have predicted that ?

I am still hoping that it's not deliberate. If the copilot suffered any neurological event like subarachnoid haemorrhage or stroke, it is not unusual for people to behave abnormally & perform unusual actions involuntarily when that neurological event happens. Maybe he had a sudden stroke & in a confused state started the descent.
 
AF1624
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting AI (Reply 154):

Sorry if I have missed it, but is it certain that the copilot did this deliberately ??

Is there any possibility that the copilot became medically incapacitated & somehow crashed the plane. After all there was no response from him or any shouting from the copilot that we are aware of so he very well could have been unconscious.

The action to descend (i.e. change the altitude in the FMA, pull the ALT knob to open descent, retard the throttles to idle, so really three separate actions) was deliberate.

He was also breathing all the way throughout the descent.

This seems pretty straight forward to me.
Cheers
 
SCQ83
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 156):

I cant see why this is a sad day for aviation.

It is a sad day for the people murdered and their families and friends.

But a sad day for aviation? Hopefully at least this accident will help to take measures to improve safety in civil aircraft. And that is not sad, but good.
 
sharles
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting aw70 (Reply 155):
Trouble is, given that they will at best find tiny fragments of the chap, we will probably never know which of the two scenarios took place. If an intact body is found, a stroke can be diagnosed post-mortem without any problems. Here: well, not really. So unless he left an actual suicide note, this event will in all likelihood go down as a big mystery.

Problem is, the copilot has to actively deny permission to either. Either use the mechanical lock or cancel the emergency unlock. Though a stroke might result in the pilot being so disoriented as to deny unlock...
 
Scruffer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 136):
If that's the case then this is one of the dumbest features every invented in the name of safety. I don't think that's the case though, I believe a code can be entered to override the lock for 5 seconds. I've heard a couple of versions, not sure which one, if any, is correct.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 149):
Fully agreed. The laws and procedures implemented after 9/11, starting from passenger searches to freight inspection to locked Cockpit doors in aircraft lack one thing: common sense,

That is a knee-jerk reaction. Even if the door would have been easier to open it doesn't change the fact that a lone pilot can fly the plane in such a way that it is nearly impossible to re-enter an unlocked cockpit door, or get the plane into a situation that is not recoverable even if another pilot is able to gain entry.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Imho we need 2 levels of security for the door.

The standard, where a code known to both pilots and the pursuer opens the door, regardless of what the pilot in the cockpit does.

And a second one which is activated by pressing emergency buttons hidden in the cabin, where only a person in the cockpit can open the door from inside.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 165):
Most likely he did, but this has a dely of 5 minutes to give the cockpit crew enough time to react - and These 5 minutes were too long in this case maybe...

It's not 5 minutes, it's 30 seconds. And apparently, the person inside the cockpit can block the emergency opening if he reacts within these 30 seconds.
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting AI (Reply 171):
The whole act by the copilot - if it is deliberate, depended on the pilot leaving the cockpit. How could he have predicted that ?

Maybe he just got lucky. And decided in the spur of the moment. Maybe he wasn't even consciously planning to do it until that opportunity presented itself.

Suicide can happen quite spontaneously, crazy as it sounds.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 163):
They designed a system where either a suicidal pilot, or a bad guy who somehow got access to the cockpit, can keep everyone locked out, even those who have the access code. And for what reasoning?

Obviously to defend against terrorists attacking the cockpit.

Obviously the risk of a terrorist attack was deemed higher than the risk of a suicidal pilot.

Also there are many other things this FO could have done to make sure the plane descended faster and was in an unrecoverable spin, but it seems this sick man chose a different approach.

Quoting markalot (Reply 163):
That the bad guy, knowing one of the attendants has the code, would kill them or force them to enter it? I think they would probably kill them anyway, code or no code, telling the pilots they will kill passengers one by one until they get entry.

Obviously there would be nothing the pilots could do about terrorists killing hostages. The best they could do is get the plane on the ground to an airport whose security forces were alerted.
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:44 pm

How often are pilots required to get psych evaluations?

This sheds a whole new light on MH370 for me.

Commercial planes have gone from a means of transportation to terrorism to now personal suicide machines.

Tragic.
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sharles
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting Scruffer (Reply 175):
That is a knee-jerk reaction. Even if the door would have been easier to open it doesn't change the fact that a lone pilot can fly the plane in such a way that it is nearly impossible to re-enter an unlocked cockpit door, or get the plane into a situation that is not recoverable even if another pilot is able to gain entry.

  
Nothing will ever protect from someone determined to suicide. However, the relevant authorities will certainly weight the tradeoffs of any changes in regulation that might help to some degree.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 170):
Thank you. So basically if the switch is set to "lock", then the door won't open regardless of the override code?

No, you must move it to locked to reject the opening request.
 
Andy33
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 147):
There are still data protection laws in place, so I wonder on what basis they took the leap and published his name.

Well, it was the French prosecutor who named the co-pilot. Given the way the French legal system works, it would be amazing if he wasn't fully aware of French law!
 
sierrakilo44
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting jfklganyc This will lead to pilotless cockpits sooner rather than later. That's long term.(Reply 156):

Why? There was never any call for that after Silkair or Egyptair?
I think the automated airliners debate was settled a long time ago, and I'll pose a question:
If human control of airliners was taken away from pilots and given to a ground station, what happens when bad guys take over the ground station????

[Edited 2015-03-26 05:49:00]
 
katekebo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:46 pm

Apparently (accordingly to CNN), Lufthansa does not have the "always two people in the cockpit" rule that requires a flight attendant to stay in cockpit while one of the pilots is out. Seems like an easy fix. It's not 100% foolproof but does reduce the risk of a single deranged individual crashing the plan on purpose. Even if the pilot takes such action, the other person can help to open the door, and/or talk him/her down from taking such action. Also, a suicidal person is much less likely to take action in somebody's presence.

The "always two people in the cockpit" rule should be implemented immediately.
 
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anfromme
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:47 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 147):
I still don't understand why he had to be named. There are still data protection laws in place, so I wonder on what basis they took the leap and published his name.

Fully agree.
You're not achieving anything by publishing the name, you're only inviting idiots to hunt down his family, as if they weren't in enough pain as it is already.

Quoting gbrazil (Reply 141):
I wish no one would leak the CVR contents this soon.

They're not being leaked. This is an official source informing us about the current state of investigations.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 132):
How can a pilot in good conscience fly 150 innocent people including school children and babies into the ground? I don't believe it for a second. That was the same story they fed us for MH370. When investigators are clueless, they come up with these crazy theories that of course nobody can disprove unless they were sitting in the cockpit right when it happened. There are surely other scenarios that are more plausible than this.

Sounds like a classic case of "es kann nicht sein, was nicht sein darf" ("what cannot be, mustn't be", roughly translated), i.e. you rule out a possibility (pilot suicide) because you don't want to believe it, regardless of the evidence.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 151):
You need to understand the difference between existing procedural machines in place and new generation of machine learning... it might be that the current computers required for the task are still too heavy and too energy-consuming, but computers are still doubling the processing power every year. Note that this growth is exponential.

Having studied computer science and subjects like AI (as well as human-machine interaction), I'm quite aware of and understand the concepts you describe.
I just don't subscribe to the promises and prospects you attach to them.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 151):
Once you have AI learning in all the planes flying around, it will learn really quick, and new experience is going to be shared and updated on the fly. Yes, there are still going to be casualties - but once something happens, it will never happen again.

The more autonomous your AI system becomes, the less deterministic it becomes. In more than one way, what you describe is a more human computer system - which completely negates your premise, which is to exclude the human factor.

Discussing this in more detail is probably something best left to a separate thread, anyway.

Quoting AI (Reply 154):
Is there any possibility that the copilot became medically incapacitated & somehow crashed the plane. After all there was no response from him or any shouting from the copilot that we are aware of so he very well could have been unconscious.

Not according to the public prosecutor. The CVR recording contains the sound of the door closing, followed by inputs on the flight control computer, which coincide with the plane starting its descent. There is constant breathing audible in the cockpit until the end of the recording. So the descent was initiated deliberately by the co-pilot as soon as the pilot had left the cockpit, and the co-pilot then kept overriding the pilot's attempts to open the cockpit door.
42
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 172):
He was also breathing all the way throughout the descent.

That doesn't say much. You breathe when you are unconscious too.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting AI (Reply 171):
The whole act by the copilot - if it is deliberate, depended on the pilot leaving the cockpit. How could he have predicted that ?

He may have had this plan in his head for a long time, just waiting for the opportunity...

How hard would it be to predict sooner or later the Captain would need to use the toilet in-flight?
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crimsonchin
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 182):
No, you must move it to locked to reject the opening request.

Okay, so just to be clear, after the override code has been entered, whoever is in the cockpit can flip the switch to lock, so the override is rejected?
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 156):
This will lead to pilotless cockpits sooner rather than later. That's long term.

Way premature. The hudson crash would not have had the same outcome without humans. Also, the incident which was talked about yesterday on that LH A321 where the flight crew disengaged computers to re-gain control shows that the human factor can also be positive. After all, a system can only do what it is intended and designed for.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:50 pm

A bit of morbid thinking : how fast can you crash deliberately from FL380 ? Would the fastest be : full left or right stick, full nose down, full power ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 188):
How hard would it be to predict sooner or later the Captain would need to use the toilet in-flight?

Perhaps the co-pilot kindly offered the captain an extra cup or two of coffee that early morning? Something so innocent can be part of a plan...
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 190):
Okay, so just to be clear, after the override code has been entered, whoever is in the cockpit can flip the switch to lock, so the override is rejected?

Exactly, the "horn" blares for 30 seconds, within that time moving the lever to lock rejects the opening requests, if no action is taken the door opens for 5 seconds after the 30 seconds have passed.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 120):
That said, I thought the door lock had a feature to allow locked out personnel to get in via the code. I think it's been discussed above but people are ignoring it. This could simply be a case of a suicidal co-pilot and a crash that might, I say might, have been avoidable if the pilot followed the correct access procedure? It had to be an extremely stressful situation.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 135):
You lack imagination. The makers of the doors have considered the possibility that a crew member would be forced to compose the emergency code, so there is an override in the cockpit. If the pilot doesn't want you to enter, you're not going to enter.
Quoting markalot (Reply 136):
If that's the case then this is one of the dumbest features every invented in the name of safety. I don't think that's the case though, I believe a code can be entered to override the lock for 5 seconds. I've heard a couple of versions, not sure which one, if any, is correct.

A lever in the cockpit gives the crew in cockpit opportunity to shut the door completely during emergencies. If the door is locked in this way inside the cockpit, it is not possible to open the door from outside , even if a pilot or flightattendant on the other side knows the code.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...-vare-alene-i-cockpit-7959816.html
 
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scbriml
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 152):
So why didn't the pilot use this?

Nothing can open the door if it's been locked from inside the cockpit.
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ManuCH
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 166):
This has been confirmed by the authorities.
Quoting Andy33 (Reply 183):
Well, it was the French prosecutor who named the co-pilot. Given the way the French legal system works, it would be amazing if he wasn't fully aware of French law!

That's precisely what I was surprised about: that the authorities named the co-pilot. I wonder under what legal basis they did so, considering privacy laws that are in place. But I guess that would be a topic for a separate thread.
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:53 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 191):
The hudson crash would not have had the same outcome without humans.

Perhaps with 2009 (or earlier) computer AI. Within 10 years a new level of AI will be achieved that will not only supplant pilots in the cockpit but also a majority of jobs across the globe. A few billionaires in Silicon Valley and elsewhere will be pulling all the strings. But that's another thread.
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goosebayguy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:53 pm

The only quick fix here is to have a member of the crew enter the cockpit whenever a pilot uses the toilet. That way there is always someoen to keep an eye on things and open the door when the pilot returns.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 187):
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 172):
He was also breathing all the way throughout the descent.

That doesn't say much. You breathe when you are unconscious too.

So, you are going with the "best case" scenario where the FO feels incapacitated shortly after CA leaves to use the toilet and decides to put the plane into a descent? Why would he react to the onset of incapacitation by changing the FMS to dive the aircraft?
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