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aerobus12
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:55 pm

The only suggestion I have that can have an actual safety benefit is that any sequence of flight control inputs must be authorised by both pilots. If both pilots are in the cockpit they should both have a button that is only accessible to themselves. Any flight control input by one pilot must be confirmed by his colleague pushing the button. If one pilot leaves the cockpit, he should have some sort of electronic device with him where he is informed of any flight control input the pilot in the cockpit wants to make, and he is required to authorise this as well.

Yes, it is invasive and extremely difficult to implement, but it is the only way to ensure that no pilot makes malicious control inputs. One could say it could be a risk if one pilot is incapacitated, but then there must be some security mechanism, perhaps a FA could authorise a pilot to control the aircraft on his own?
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 167):
A former Corsair pilot just said on Radio-Canada that if the co-pilot wanted to make a suicide attack, he could have simply crashed the aircraft on the nearby large city.

Perhaps, but the captain wasn't out of his seat at the point where it flew over a large city.
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 193):
Exactly, the "horn" blares for 30 seconds, within that time moving the lever to lock rejects the opening requests, if no action is taken the door opens for 5 seconds after the 30 seconds have passed.

Thank you. Well looking at this, it gets harder to exonerate the co-pilot then. I can't think of many reasons why he would deny the pilot's attempt to gain re-entry into the cockpit.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:00 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 199):
Why would he react to the onset of incapacitation by changing the FMS to dive the aircraft?

Even if he did, some intimately familiar with the A320 have already suggested there are no default modes that will allow you to descend at or near VMO, and since the 320 is a very slippery bird to begin with you'd be fighting with the autothrust speed protections. Some have interpreted the speed data available as possibly being near VMO, which would make the totality of descent configuration deliberate.

But as many have said, we'll need the FDR to be sure.
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s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 187):
That doesn't say much. You breathe when you are unconscious too.

I have the same reservation. The thing pointing to deliberate action, if I understand corectly, is that it flew over 250kts under 10.000 feet, which needs to be entered in FMS / autopilot? On the other hand, could stroke explain entering something else as intended? Imagine he had a stroke, felt dizzy, initiated descent because he suspected hypoxia, then did something while being already disabled? Should we at least give him the benefit of the doubt?

Would the emergency descent button override FMS? This Airbus still had it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 192):
A bit of morbid thinking : how fast can you crash deliberately from FL380 ? Would the fastest be : full left or right stick, full nose down, full power ?

Indeed, why torture oneself with 8 minutes of slow suffering. If it was unplanned, it should be kinda more impulsive. Like people who suddenly turn left into the opposite driving truck or something.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 189):
Was Andreas Lubitz an ISIS sympathizer?

And waste opportunity to kill more people by crashing into a city?
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:01 pm

- Easy and smooth conversation during first part of the flight
- Later in the flight while doing the briefing for the arrival into Düsseldorf, the copilot becomes a bit "weird".. doesn't answer easily. Slow response. The mood changes.
- Captain leaves cockpit to go to the toilet (presumably)
- Copilot initiates descent
- Captain returns to the cockpit door, entering his code
- Copilot does not open the door
- Normal slow breathing is heard on the CVR from the Copilot during this phase.
- Absolute no response to the knocking on the cockpit door or the repeated ATC calls
- Aircraft hit the ground at 700 km/h (around 390 knots)
- Screaming heard from the cabin during the last seconds of flight as the pax and crew realize what's about to happen

I'm seeing three possible scenarios here:

1. Copilot has already decided before the flight what he's going to do. But this doesn't add up due to the smooth and easy conversation and light mood during the early phases of the flight, and because his mood changes abruptly later on.
2. Copilot's mood changes during flight because of an unknown factor. Could be family matters, girlfriend, an sms on his phone, anything. Then takes the opportunity to cause this tragedy when the captain leaves the flight deck.
3. Copilot becomes physically ill for some reason, maybe because of food or an aneurism or anything, causing his response to become slow. If it wasn't for the fact that descent was initiated after the captain left the flight deck, and that the door switch was moved to Locked from the inside, I'd almost believe he became incapacitaed and fell asleep by himself. This would explain the calm breathing on the CVR.

But right now I think option 2 is the most plausible.

[Edited 2015-03-26 06:04:46]
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:02 pm

Just saw this on Flightradar24's Twitter:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBBiooCUwAAdaQI.png

"Analysis of Flightradar24 ADS-B/ModeS data: Autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 to 100 ft at 09:30:55"

Not that I understand the screenshot.

[Edited 2015-03-26 06:03:08]
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting aerobus12 (Reply 200):
If one pilot leaves the cockpit, he should have some sort of electronic device with him where he is informed of any flight control input the pilot in the cockpit wants to make, and he is required to authorise this as well.

As a member of the car sharing service, ZipCar, the ZipCar App on my phone allows me to honk, lock, unlock doors and flash the lights of the car as well as sound the alarm I think.

A flight control app? Sounds totally unhackable!
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 119):
Does he have a spotless record, or anything unusual going on this guys life?

Anyone who is working in Germany in an Airport, Airline etc. is checked by the government, so he had a clean record.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 164):
pilots may need to have access to firearms to deal with the case where the code is compromised.

And what's to stop one pilot shooting the other or anyone who tries to stop them?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 194):
A lever in the cockpit gives the crew in cockpit opportunity to shut the door completely during emergencies. If the door is locked in this way inside the cockpit, it is not possible to open the door from outside , even if a pilot or flightattendant on the other side knows the code.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...-vare-alene-i-cockpit-7959816.html

Yes, that is correct. Here is another link: http://www.efbdesktop.com/airplane-general/sys-1.3.1.html



For mode LOCK: Momentarily placing the cockpit door switch to LOCK illuminates the red cockpit access panel light, rejects keypad entry request, inhibits aural alerts, and prevents further access code entry for 20 minutes. The cockpit door switch returns to NORM when released, but remains in locked mode for 20 minutes or until UNLOCK is selected.

This is different for mode NORM: When NORM is selected, it allows the door to be locked when closed. It also allows the door to be opened after an emergency access code entry and 30 second delay in case of pilot incapacitation.

So we see once the switch is moved to LOCK the door will NOT open for 20 minutes unless the switch is put into NORM or UNLOCK.
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Andy33
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 201):
Perhaps, but the captain wasn't out of his seat at the point where it flew over a large city.

True, but from the point the descent was initiated (and presumably the captain had left the flight deck) it would have been perfectly possible to make a turn and a steeper descent aiming for Marseille, a city with a population of 1.7 million, this would have made the tragedy far worse. For sure, based on what we've been told so far, nobody could have stopped this.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:03 pm

FR24 has analysed the raw data from the aircraft transponder:

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...25-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

Quote:
Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the "open descent" autopilot setting.

09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
...
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
...
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
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cbphoto
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:04 pm

While this news about the copilot is sad and hard to take in, let's also keep in mind while this has happened in the past, and may again happen in the future, it's a very rare event. Think of how many millions of flights have been flown over the years by professional pilots, doing their jobs safely, every day. As had been alluded before, pilots are humans and sometimes mental issues slip through the cracks. But overall, the system that most of the world has for recruitment and training of pilots, works. For those who think the locking door system needs to be changed or eliminated all together, must swallow the harsh reality, that 150+ lives is a small figure compared to 09/11. I agree the policy on having a FA in the flight deck when one crew member is out, should be looked at by the regulators in Europe. I however doubt it would would have prevented this from happening.

Rather then making this about cockpit doors and procedures, this should be looked from a psychological issue. Being a pilot can be stressful and maybe this First Officer had warning signs that were missed by family, friends and coworkers.

Either way, it's still heartbreaking.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 201):
Perhaps, but the captain wasn't out of his seat at the point where it flew over a large city.

The Airbus didn't overflew a large city. If you look the screenshot below, you'll see that if flew near Marseille, where the pilot could have crashed the aircraft simply by turning around.

https://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...3574&filename=1427202393oOErW9.jpg
 
jumpjet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 167):
A former Corsair pilot just said on Radio-Canada that if the co-pilot wanted to make a suicide attack, he could have simply crashed the aircraft on the nearby large city.

I agree totally. Having passed close to Toulon and Marseille, if this was an act of terrorism, surely this aircraft would have been turned and flown into an urban area so as to make even more of a statement.

I've never personally been able to understand what makes someone contemplate suicide, but there are ways of doing it without causing such utter carnage. Why would someone want to take 149 complete innocents with them? I'm just utterly dumbfounded!

I just hope the authorities find another answer in due course.

After 9/11, it was hard to contemplate anything that might mirror the sheer horror of that, but this is getting close.......
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:05 pm

So I've been thinking about the lock feature, which I called incredibly dumb. Trying to be a little more rational, the purpose of the lock is to prevent someone from using the plane as a weapon, with pros and cons probably being well thought out before hand. The cons, of course, is that you are potentially sacrificing the non pilot crew and passengers in order to protect more people on the ground (the plane as a weapon scenario).

Of course, as pointed out, even with an override that could have worked the co-pilot could have put the aircraft in an unrecoverable dive where the timeliness of access is a moot point.

I know some have mentioned the pilotless aircraft, but of course there are risks to that as well. Perhaps some way to externally override the lock, like a call to company to force an unlock for example. Again, though, almost impossible to stop a pilot bent on suicide/murder without more automation / intelligent systems in place.
M a r k
 
mat66
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:06 pm

I'm shocked. So tragic.

About these cockpit doors, I watched the video about the locking procedures. why not install a second secure door behind the lavatory? Isn't there a lav just right of the cockpit in every commercial airplane? Close and lock it when one pilot needs to use the lavatory and keep the other one open.
Just a crazy thought. Please be gentle.
 
loalq
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:07 pm

Silkair 185
Egyptair 990
LAM Mozambique 470
Japan Airlines 350
Royal Air Maroc 630

Unfortunately this wont be the first time deliberate actions by the crew are to blame for an accident.
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 212):
FR24 has analysed the raw data from the aircraft transponder:

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...64616

This confirms it imho. Setting the AP to the lowest setting is not something you would do in an emergency.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 205):
But this doesn't add up due to the smooth and easy conversation and light mood during the early phases of the flight, and because his mood changes abruptly later on.

It has to be your first option 1, precisely because of the abrupt change in mood. His mind is made up. OR the change in mood is based on a brain aneurism and somehow at some point he feels the fastest way for his own medical attention is to get the plane on the ground and this is an instinctual act to save his own life in a way. But the reality is that he is mentally incapacitated. The tragedy is that all of this happened, gradually, while the PIC decides to relieve himself.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:09 pm

Quoting gbrazil (Reply 141):
It is a very strong statement and I find it untimely. It's only been two days and we're assigning blame? I wish no one would leak the CVR contents this soon.

The sooner information comes out the better, there's a huge fleet of A320 series aircraft out there and this was an early example. Quite rightly people get a little jumpy that it might be a fatigue problem until they hear otherwise

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 147):
Quoting AI (Reply 108):
Copilot has been named

I still don't understand why he had to be named. There are still data protection laws in place, so I wonder on what basis they took the leap and published his name.

In this age of social media, the difference between official and unofficial disclosure is probably minutes. Indeed I saw criticism two days ago of the BBC in that they restricted their initial coverage to confirmed news, as opposed to SKY who included a lot of speculation from the web.

Quoting AI (Reply 154):

Sorry if I have missed it, but is it certain that the copilot did this deliberately ??

Is there any possibility that the copilot became medically incapacitated & somehow crashed the plane. After all there was no response from him or any shouting from the copilot that we are aware of so he very well could have been unconscious.

If the pilot were incapacitated he would have been unable to override the cockpit door entry. Additionally they were flying on an airway under direction of ATC, the course should only have been altered either at the request of ATC or in an emergency with ATC being informed.
 
karadion
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:09 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 213):

The flying community is already mentally prepared that a potential hijacking can lead to a possible outcome such as using the plane as a weapon, crashing it into the ground, etc. More people have been proactive in preventing people from gaining unauthorized access to the cockpit and there's plenty of videos demonstrating this. Heck last week, passengers restrained a mentally unstable man from trying to gain access to the cockpit. This is a case of where the system is too overbuilt and can be counterproductive to the safety of the people on the plane. Now that the message is out that you can lock anyone out of the cockpit easily, what's to stop other people who contemplates suicide by doing the same thing in the near future and taking advantage of the 1 person in cockpit situation?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 209):
And what's to stop one pilot shooting the other or anyone who tries to stop them?

As above:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 179):
Obviously the risk of a terrorist attack was deemed higher than the risk of a suicidal pilot.

There is no no perfect system. It is a calculated risk that a terrorist attack is more likely than a suicidal pilot. If there is a suicidal pilot there is not much the system can do to defeat them.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 172):
The action to descend (i.e. change the altitude in the FMA, pull the ALT knob to open descent, retard the throttles to idle, so really three separate actions) was deliberate.

There was no drop in air speed, I doubt the throttles were put to idle. The flight envelope protections would prevent the pilot from stalling the aircraft anyway, unless the pilot had put the flight computer in alternate law (not sure if that's possible).

Setting the autopilot to open descent was probably enough.
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SVJ77W
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:10 pm

This is unbelievable. The co-pilot deliberately caused the plane to crash.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:11 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 205):
Copilot has already decided before the flight what he's going to do. But this doesn't add up due to the smooth and easy conversation and light mood during the early phases of the flight, and because his mood changes abruptly later on.

As I said before. Maybe he just got lucky and reacted quickly.
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Eurohub
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:11 pm

I cannot stop thinking about how those poor pax and remaining crew must have felt if it did indeed play out like the French Prosecutor has alleged.

Even the least observant pax will have noticed the descent and become aware of the captain banging on the cockpit door from the cabin side - pulling the curtain across won't have hidden the grim truth.

I cannot imagine a worse scenario for those poor people to spend their last minutes dealing with. RIP

[Edited 2015-03-26 06:18:09]
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LH526
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:12 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 176):
The standard, where a code known to both pilots and the pursuer opens the door, regardless of what the pilot in the cockpit does.

And with that the terrorists have all chance to get the codes from the purser which is held hostage and tortured until the code is released ... with giving up freedom to evade terror, you're losing safety (..or as the quote goes) ... and will lose both in the end. Sad sidenote in this debate.
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 119):

So if all this is true regarding the co-pilot, what is the background on this guy? Does he have a spotless record, or anything unusual going on this guys life?

I think they need to check his Facebook profile for poetry. That's the way to get conclusive evidence for this kind of thing, I understand from other threads.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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HALtheAI
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 164):
Clearly a four digit codes is a huge risk since a terrorist can force a crew member to reveal the code.

And what are the pax doing while all this is going on? Are they just sitting around writing fond farewells to their loved ones instead of, you know, actually trying to stop the terrorists from flying the plane into a building? Unless the terrorists have somehow managed to smuggle automatic weapons on board, there's almost no chance of a successful pax-initiated hijack in a post-9/11 world.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 191):
Way premature. The hudson crash would not have had the same outcome without humans

I agree. HAL would've returned to the airport instead of putting a perfectly good bird in the drink.  
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting mat66 (Reply 217):
I'm shocked. So tragic.

About these cockpit doors, I watched the video about the locking procedures. why not install a second secure door behind the lavatory? Isn't there a lav just right of the cockpit in every commercial airplane? Close and lock it when one pilot needs to use the lavatory and keep the other one open.
Just a crazy thought. Please be gentle.

Then the lavatory door could be blocked from the outside! The safest is to have atleast one FA in the cockpit at all times!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 223):
There is no no perfect system.

   Just like software security, you can't create a 'perfect system'. Everything built by mankind can be destroyed by another human being.

Protocols will be changed and it's only a matter of time before someone else find another way to crash the airplane.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting loalq (Reply 218):
Silkair 185
Egyptair 990
LAM Mozambique 470
Japan Airlines 350
Royal Air Maroc 630

Unfortunately this wont be the first time deliberate actions by the crew are to blame for an accident.

This is balanced out by literally millions of flights without a suicidal pilot.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 220):
It has to be your first option 1, precisely because of the abrupt change in mood. His mind is made up. OR the change in mood is based on a brain aneurism and somehow at some point he feels the fastest way for his own medical attention is to get the plane on the ground and this is an instinctual act to save his own life in a way. But the reality is that he is mentally incapacitated. The tragedy is that all of this happened, gradually, while the PIC decides to relieve himself.

Plausible, but (2) is more plausible, IMHO. You are not accounting for the fact that he needed to have put the door control into the LOCK position instead of just leaving it in the NORM position. If he was medically ill there is no plausible reason for doing so.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting Eurohub (Reply 227):
I cannot stop thinking about how those poor pax and remaining crew must have felt if it did indeed play out like the French Prosecutor has alleged.

Even the least observant pax will have noticed the descent and become aware of the captain banging on the cockpit door from the cabin side - pulling the curtain across won't have hidden the grim truth.

Apparently investigators could hear people screaming on the CVR during the final seconds of the flight.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:15 pm

Do they have the same type of locking mechanisms on Boeing Aircraft ? Would it be possible to open the door on a Boeing in such a scenario ?
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting Eurohub (Reply 227):
I cannot stop thinking about how those poor pax and remaining crew must have felt if it did indeed play out like the French Prosecutor has alleged.

Even the least observant pax will have noticed the descent and become aware of the captain banging on the cockpit door from the cabin side - pulling the curtain across won't have hidden the grim truth.

I cannot imagine a worse scenario for those poor people to spent their last minutes dealing with. RIP

This is what keeps circling in my mind. It's heart-wrenching.

I keep reading through the various news outlets and here, and I keep welling up. The pax and crew, the relatives and friends and colleagues, the family of the co-pilot. The people who do the gruesome job of recovering everything. And the plane (sorry, but even that).
Absolute Relativist
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting BubbleFrog (Reply 206):
Not that I understand the screenshot.

Here you can find the explanation from FR24:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...25-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616
 
KBUF
Posts: 478
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 222):
Now that the message is out that you can lock anyone out of the cockpit easily, what's to stop other people who contemplates suicide by doing the same thing in the near future and taking advantage of the 1 person in cockpit situation?

I can think of four regulations that could be added worldwide (some, if not all, may already exist in some locations):

-Require a minimum of two crew members to be in the cockpit at all times during flight.

-If one of the pilots has to leave the cockpit while in flight for whatever reason (investigating a possible problem, using the lav, etc.), a flight attendant must enter the cockpit until the pilot returns.

-Modify all cockpit doors to add a way for pilots to unlock them from the outside.

-Add or increase the frequency of mental health evaluations for all crew members.

[Edited 2015-03-26 06:20:36]
 
karadion
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 230):
And what are the pax doing while all this is going on?

Probably well aware of what was going on. The A320 isn't that roomy so it's only wide enough to fit two people to try and gain access to the cockpit. It's a huge bottleneck.
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 228):
nd with that the terrorists have all chance to get the codes from the purser which is held hostage and tortured until the code is released ... with giving up freedom to evade terror, you're losing safety (..or as the quote goes) ... and will lose both in the end. Sad sidenote in this debate.

Unless they are familiar with the operations of the lockout, which many of us were not, they are going to try and get the code anyway, not knowing the pilots can override it. They will see the keypad and demand the code. The system already sacrifices the passengers and crew, which is morbid but probably deliberate and by design.
M a r k
 
Burkhard
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 pm

What makes me wonder have any cell phone call trials be made, or are Germans so disciplined that they do not switch on their phones when on a flight?

The are beeing all over touristic should have a good coverage.
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 229):
I think they need to check his Facebook profile for poetry. That's the way to get conclusive evidence for this kind of thing, I understand from other threads.

And, after all the horrific news, made me chuckle. Thank you.
Absolute Relativist
 
cbphoto
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 222):

But it's not a secret to pilots that they can lock out the other pilot. So this is not an issue of someone else getting the idea to commit suicide. If a pilot wants to crash a plane for suicidal reasons, a locking door won't stop that. There are lots of items that can be used to incompacitate the other pilot and accomplish their goal.
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
Andy33
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 235):
Do they have the same type of locking mechanisms on Boeing Aircraft ? Would it be possible to open the door on a Boeing in such a scenario ?

As far as I know the arrangements are similar. They were after all designed (in a great hurry) to solve the exact same problem and to satisfy the US FAA and security requirements.
 
mat66
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting mila (Reply 231):

Yes, you're right. Like I said, just a thought.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting KBUF (Reply 238):
Require a minimum of two crew members to be in the cockpit at all times during flight.
If one of the pilots has to leave the cockpit while in flight for whatever reason, a flight attendant must enter the cockpit until the pilot returns.

Not sure what we'd expect a FA to be doing in this case. Door is locked by FO. FA would have to be trained to locate the switch and move it to UNLOCK or NORM. If FO didn't want this to happen chances are high that the FA could not unlock the door.

Quoting KBUF (Reply 238):
Modify all cockpit doors to add a way for pilots to unlock them f

They do already have a way to unlock them.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 164):
Either the security needs to be strengthened via biometrics or indeed the pilots may need to have access to firearms to deal with the case where the code is compromised.

Well, Revelation, you know I do respect you, but regarding firearms - this just doesn't work. This is Europe, we do not have firearms for private persons. The few private people who have a licence for firearms, like money transport drivers, are rare, with good reason.

So, with other words: We do not have firearms, we do not want firearms, and we usually are not trained to firearms. Granted, this could be changed, but I do not see the necessity. In short, I fail to see that a firearm in the hands of a pilot does anything remotely good in any possible scenario.
 
exfss
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 pm

I see very soon the crew having some sort of device which monitor the heart beat and such vital signs as acars data transmitted .
I see a third pilot on remote ground base following many flight as back up.
I see protected direct line in cabin with groung operator.
I see second crew mandatory in cockpit at all time.
I see ways of having a pee without having to leave your seat.

Quoting BubbleFrog (Reply 148):
"The family of the co-pilot have left Marseille and gone back."

They indeed must be devastated.

Sad for all families.

I might understand why wilco737 has left the post ,and i wish him strength.
No question is stupid.Only answers can be.
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 237):
Here you can find the explanation from FR24:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...25-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

Thanks a lot.
Absolute Relativist

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