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slvrblt
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:31 pm

I have no sympathy for people that commit crimes like this, because that's what it is, a crime. I'm going to put my flame suit on here but so be it.

A person that makes a conscious, thoughtful decision to end it all is one thing. Suicide is a horrible, weighty decision a person makes and carries out. I wouldn't dream of judging someone on that.....Because - everyone has problems; we all face our own particular demons every day. The sadness is in the fact they can't or won't reach out, or in some cases it's really all a mental health issue.
For others - it's declining health.....with its attendant concerns and issues. I know. One of my own dear family ended it all very tragically. Your health and well-being disintegrates and you see no way out. Or don't want to be a burden. It shouldn't happen. But sometimes people don't want to talk about it, they prefer their own highways and don't ask for help. But suicide is about killing YOUR OWN SELF.

Someone that decides to end it all.....but wants to take 150 other people with them to me is in a different category altogether, is contemptible and no better than an terrorist. Isn't that what terrorists do? Perform whatever destructive act, and take as many others with them as they can? I can't imagine the pain these hundreds of families go thru. And now, it's GermanWings.


Egyptair........217 innocent souls.
Argue all you want but they have the CVR recordings. The Captain was out of the cockpit, and the FO's words as he put the plane's nose down were ''god is great, I rely on god. The Captain saying ''what is this, what is this??''

MH370.........240 souls on board. Likely suicide, but still a major mystery.

GermanWings 9525....150 innocent souls...........

May they all rest in peace.
..everything works out in the end.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting 113312 (Reply 97):
There is a high probability that the French authorities have jumped to a conclusion and gotten this wrong. They want the public to have a quick explanation and not end up hanging like Malaysian 370 families. But, there are other explanations that can fit the few facts that have been released.



David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
KBJCpilot
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:37 pm

What if the flight deck doors had a key fob or pass card reader that could not be disabled from the instrument panel? One of the cabin crew was the "hot fob" or "hot card" for the flight and they were able to swipe their card before the cabin doors were closed? Their card would be the default card for the remainder of the flight and would reset when the cabin door was opened. The flight deck would not know which member had the fob/card and the responsibility of the hot card would change every flight. The card reader would need to be someplace where the passengers could not see who the crew member was for security purposes and when in flight and the fob/card was swiped the flight deck door was unlocked for 5 seconds before it locked again.

Just an idea.
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fraspotter
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting 113312 (Reply 97):
There is a high probability that the French authorities have jumped to a conclusion and gotten this wrong. They want the public to have a quick explanation and not end up hanging like Malaysian 370 families. But, there are other explanations that can fit the few facts that have been released.

Like what? A heart attack? At the very moment the Captain leaves the cockpit? Highly unlikely. Not beyond the realm of possibility (a plane COULD afterall crash into my house today) but far from a "high probability". They have the CVR and should have the FDR soon.

Quoting Markam (Reply 62):
Spohr said that it appears the captain punched in the emergency number into the cockpit door to gain entry, but the co-pilot deployed the five-minute override."

Sounds intentional to me.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 99):
I have not read all the comments here but i find it comical people are suggesting cards and key codes to access the flight deck. Good luck swiping that card, entering your code, and trying to contact operations on the ground while your aircraft is pulling 10Gs 500mph toward the ground!

I agree, and on top of it, what would a flight attendant in the cockpit do? I was surprised to hear that so many airlines don't have a 2 person in the cockpit rule and it's a pretty common sense idea that would prevent many mishaps (heart attack, maybe some suicide) but what would happen if there is a flight attendant in the cockpit and a way for the pilots to get through the door and the suicidal pilot instantly did a pulling turn into a nose dive or something? Even if the other pilot could get in and the suicidal pilot just disappeared the plane would still probably be screwed.

I'm all for being proactive and learning from our mistakes but people, there will ALWAYS be a risk, no matter what. Our proposed solutions shouldn't open the door to more problems.

Some people mentioned that terrorist attacks aren't really a problem any more... I agree, we have some tight security. But if we pass some half baked measure that allows a way to get in the cockpit, you better believe it will be exploited.

And pilotless aircraft? I agree they're coming, but it's still a while off. Sure a computer will be able to fly it better than a human... when everything works. Do you know how often things break in aircraft? Nothing catastrophic, but minor things any competent pilot can deal with. Having a computer fix itself when it breaks... I don't know about that. What about FMC resets? A pilot can quickly switch to hand flying and good ol pilot skills when the computers are having seizures... what would a computer do?

I'd say we are probably close to 99% safe automated airliners... further away from 99.99%, and much further from 99.99999% which we need to be.

And I don't see the point of remote operators. It makes sense over combat zones, but why have the pilot hundreds of miles away in an office vs in the aircraft? A pilot still has to fly it, they are just far away and less capable to troubleshoot
 
Max Q
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 3):
Maybe the airlines need to start being more meticulous in their hiring. It will cost more to do this, but it would outweigh all the pending lawsuits that will be happening over this last incident if its proven that it was pilot suicide

Good luck with that, you can't take the human out of humans. Everyone has issues and no one knows what is really going on with someone else.


The first thing I would do is pretty simple, the forward toilet in every jet transport should be INSIDE the cockpit, no need to go in and out of a secured door to get to it, while one is taking care of his physiological needs he is RIGHT THERE in case the other Pilot is having an issue of any kind.


There is this misguided idea that having a flight attendant in the cockpit when one Pilot leaves will prevent the remaining Pilot from doing anything 'nefarious' that is ridiculous. Wadrs to cabin crew most have no idea how anything functions in the cockpit ,have any insight what a Pilot is doing or have the judgement to know what is normal or not.


Even if they managed to correctly judge that 'something was up' they would not be able to prevent it, in the Egyptair suicide the Captain did get back to his seat but was unable to overpower his First Officers inputs.


You simply cannot outguess everyone
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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aerobus12
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:05 pm

The dangerous thing about perpetrators of murder-suicide is that they often show no signs of depression and anger on the outside. They are indeed depressed and suicidal, but the root cause is primarily that they believe they have been wronged by society and jealousy of other people who are more successful in life, in terms of work, education and above all social or romantic life. As a result of this, their hatred is directed at all human beings, with the exception of those who have shown them affection (family, friends, etc.) They believe that if they just commit suicide on their own, society and the people they feel have let them down win. A murder-suicide is their revenge on society and a chance to get what they perceive as justice.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 105):
The first thing I would do is pretty simple, the forward toilet in every jet transport should be INSIDE the cockpit, no need to go in and out of a secured door to get to it, while one is taking care of his physiological needs he is RIGHT THERE in case the other Pilot is having an issue of any kind.

As I wrote before... then, the 320 would be down to ONE passenger toilet. If that one toilet is not usable, you can't dispatch the flight.

It would be more economical to still have two toilets for the passengers, and a kind of a cat litter box in the cockpit for the pilots to poo...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Aesma
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting 113312 (Reply 97):
There is a high probability that the French authorities have jumped to a conclusion and gotten this wrong. They want the public to have a quick explanation and not end up hanging like Malaysian 370 families. But, there are other explanations that can fit the few facts that have been released.

I think you meant the not French New York Times.

If MH370 had been found, we would certainly know what happened. Here the aircraft was never lost, first rescuers were on the scene within minutes, there is no comparison possible.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Max Q
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 107):
As I wrote before... then, the 320 would be down to ONE passenger toilet. If that one toilet is not usable, you can't dispatch the flight.

So you install another toilet, not exactly rocket science.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 109):
So you install another toilet, not exactly rocket science.

Making room for a third toilet on a 319 (or a fourth on a 320, depending on the airline and seat layout) is rocket science

Edit: I had a 319 in mind when writing about installing a third toilet.

David

[Edited 2015-03-26 15:45:23]

[Edited 2015-03-26 15:46:09]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
yeginleduc
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:43 pm

I thought the A320 had two washrooms in the back and one forward. The regional jets would be an issue to take out one washroom.

In either the A330 or the B777 theres a washroom in the front that can be dual use I thought. There was a swing door that can be closed when the flight crew is using the washroom. This might be able to be done on smaller aircraft as well? Do some sort of sliding door in that small hallway area so when the crew needs to use it they just block it off?

[Edited 2015-03-26 15:45:58]
 
csavel
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 5):
Quoting holzmann (Reply 1):
In short term, rules will change to insure two people remain in the cockpit at all times.

And that in itself won't solve anything. If someone has the intent to down the plane I am sure they will find away. Whats to stop the FO for instance attacking the FA in the cockpit with the crash axe? If they have the intent they will find a way.
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 29):
With the 2-person cockpit and FA enters the cockpit to cover for a pilot leaving, does make it hard for the one pilot to take complete control. Remember, he is strapped in, seat pushed forward. It would be very cumbersome to actually manage to knock out the FA. However, it doesn't stop the reverse. The FA walking in, could quite easily knock out the pilot in control, especially if he is not paying any attention to the FA.
Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 71):
Quoting ual777 (Reply 70):
It's been two in the cockpit in the U.S. for years.

You could overpower an unaware co pilot. And an untrained FA is even easier. This is not a solution, only constant background checks and interviews just like a medical checkup is needed. In more industries than this too.

How about this for a fix. Two crew cockpit at all times. If a pilot goes to pee, an F/A goes into cockpit. Now here is the thing. F/A Must stand right by the door, that is his/her position. Door has panic button that automatically overrides setting by the pilot. Once panic button is set (remember by an F/A from *within* the cockpit. Door can't be locked for a certain amount of time. This

1. Pilot does what co-pilot did on Germanwings, F/A has time to hit panic button, door stays open pilot can run in.
2. Pilot decides to take out F/A, since F/A is right by door, she (probably a she) has enough time to hit panic button, pilot and some pax storm in.
3. Panic button is ONLY available from within cockpit, so terrorists couldn't generally use it to gain entry

Like any fix not 100%. Rogue pilot could be in league with terrorists so f/a hits panic button allowing terrorsts entry, or rogue pilot shoots f/a but really unlikely.

This is also good b/c if one pilot goes to the head, and the other one, say, has a stroke and puts plane in a dive (Boeing, not side-stick) f/a hits panic button other pilot can come in.

I am utterly ignorant but it seems to me that compared to other mods suggested, this is a cheap one.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Deal with mental health issues directly. Try to take away the stigma, and treat it no differently than cancer or heart disease (for example). If a pilot felt he could get help, and not shame, he would be more likely to deal with it.

Amen, one fear is that greater scrutiny might mean pilots with mental health issues become reluctant to come forward and seek treatment for fear of losing one's job.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
oxymorph
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 96):
It's just as likely a technical malfunction. The same kind that would cause the robot pilot to fail.

LOL.         
 
lweber557
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:41 am

Its really a non issue. There have been five confirmed cases, one suspected case, and one attempt. Out of god knows how many successful commercial flights. Besides a high level of training and standards that must be met, commercial airline pilots go through extensive background checks including a look at any alcohol, drugs, and mental health issues. (at least in the US) Although it is a stressful job most of the potentially suicidal pilots have been weeded out by the time they are responsible for passengers lives.
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:49 am

In the last 30 years, you have a 1 in 150,000,000 chance of being affected by pilot suicide (or attempt).

Truly an epidemic!
Chicks dig winglets.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:55 am

I was thinking about this and this is what I came up with ( if I were dictator for day).

1) Widebody planes like 777/748 would have lav/sink inside cockpit required
2) 2 people in cockpit at all times, by regulation not airline rules
3) Video cameras with realtime streaming to a operations center. 2 way microphone
4) Bi-annual 1 hour psych exam/consultation for all pilots
5) Down the road in like 30 years, ability for plane to be remotely piloted if clear auto-pilot/manual input will put the plane in a death spiral

Yes, I realize this list is very optimistic.
 
Viscount724
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
Japan Air Lines 24 killed, 9 Feb 1982
Royal Air Moroc 44 killed, 21 Aug 1994
Egyptair 217 killed, 31 Oct 1997
Silkair 107 killed, 19 Dec 1997
LAM Mozambique 33 killed, 29 Nov 2013
Lufthansa (Germanwings) 150 killed, 24 Mar 2015

Fedex attempted pilot suicide, 7 Apr 1994
Malaysia suspected pilot suicide 239 killed, 8 Mar 2014

You missed the Air Botswana ATR-42 at Gaborone in 1999. Fortunately the pilot only killed himself. The crash destroyed all 3 BP ATR-42s. The pilot had been grounded for medical reasons.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19991011-0
 
AIRWALK
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 116):
Widebody planes like 777/748 would have lav/sink inside cockpit required

The 748 does. QF 744s have a toilet as well, not sure if it's a common feature to all 744s
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
tomlee
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:44 am

I don't see why you just have a multi-part key device so that the crew on the outside can override the door when it is in lockdown mode. If anyone tried to abuse it by taking all the keys any one crew member could erase their key rendering the override useless.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 14):
What needs to be done is ensure that there is always a way to get into the cockpit.
They are now so secure, it’s being used against the system.

In at least one incident, a pilot who was having some sort of mental break down was duped to leave the cockpit and was unable to get back in. Do you really want some sort of fool-proof method for someone line that to re-gain access?
 
tomlee
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 120):
In at least one incident, a pilot who was having some sort of mental break down was duped to leave the cockpit and was unable to get back in. Do you really want some sort of fool-proof method for someone line that to re-gain access?

A multi-part key protects against this too. To re-gain access they would have to get the entire crew to use their keys on the door to open it. (Without any single person from erasing their device)
 
Viscount724
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:57 am

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 118):
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 116):
Widebody planes like 777/748 would have lav/sink inside cockpit required

The 748 does. QF 744s have a toilet as well, not sure if it's a common feature to all 744s

Related item a year ago re the 748.
http://www.jaunted.com/story/2014/2/...oom+That's+Impervious+to+Hijacking

I'm almost certain I've been on a 744, seated in the upper deck, where one of the two forward lavatories on the right side was behind the cockpit door. Forget what airline.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 3):
Maybe the airlines need to start being more meticulous in their hiring. It will cost more to do this, but it would outweigh all the pending lawsuits that will be happening over this last incident if its proven that it was pilot suicide.

In spite of the spike in pilot hiring, it remains one of the most selective jobs to be had, particularly for US Majors and many other major world carriers I have known several pilots that have been to one of the Service Academies, flew in the Air Force or Navy, flew for major airlines and still suffered from mental illness that ended in suicides. Along the way, they went through countless evaluations before, during, and after being hired. To a man, not one of them exhibited any warning signs or flags to disqualify them or remove them from flying a military airplane or a civilian airliner.

So you can screen and ask all the psych questions you want. There is no way to somehow determine a person's complete personality or behaviors in the future. No way to predict how someone will react to a life event at some later date. I think it's pretty safe in assuming that Mr. Lubitz passed every test that Lufthansa threw at him.
 
tomlee
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:12 am

Having a dedicated wash room for the cockpit sounds like a waste of space with added weight since you still need a passenger wash room. Just modifying the key system so you need many crew members to override the door lock is a low cost easy to implement system that protects against a cockpit takeover situation. Not to mention a suicidal crew member only has to incapacitate one person to takeover the plane and has the element of surprise and can still lock out the other crew who are on the outside.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
Pilot suicide must surely now be considered a major cause of air disasters, in recent years perhaps the leading cause (especially if MH370 is included).

What to do?

I don't know what to do. But there is one thing which I cannot get out of my head, and sure there are a.nutters who are more experts in this field.

How many rather young FO's are in a rather desparate economic situation? You are obsessed by flying, take a PPL, then continue with multi engine, then instruments rating, and you are already in deep debt.

Then you get some temporary duties for an air taxi company or whatever, flying almost for free to gain some hours. Finally you are lucky and get hired by a LCC company, where you can look forward to be promoted to PIC in fifteen years time or so, and finally earn money for a decent living and maybe even pay back your debts.

Being obsessed with flying the original dreams were to have an interesting job with equal minded colleagues, a comfortable salary, and maybe a private areobatic plane at your local airfield for the week-ends.

Reality became a boring job pressing buttons on 25 years old planes, and rechecking over and over again that your colleagues pressed the right buttons. Living half of the time in lousy hotel rooms at strange places. And whenever you are home, then you try to answer all the threats from your bank which cannot understand why you haven't got rid of your debts ages ago.

"Just wait ten more years, then I will be fifty and probably be a captain, and earn real money, so I can start paying back my debts", you will tell your bank over and over again.

As I said in the beginning, I don't know. But sometimes I hear horror stories about what conditions a young FO is offered by especially LCCs.

It must be frustrating to learn after 10+ years in the aviation industry that your school mate, who bacame a carpenter, isn't just four times more sucessful in his career, but also never learned the word "debt".

My point is: We want ordinary sane pilots. Why do we offer many of them an insane career path? Can ordinary sane pilots grown insane by being treated in an insane way?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting Luftymatt (Reply 26):
How about introducing a code that only the pilots know that can override the lock from the outside of the cockpit? In the case of the 4U crash it would have saved everyone on board.

Yet it was one of the guys that would have had the code that is being accused of intentionally flying an airplane into the ground. The Egypt Air crash that the NTSB ruled as intentional still crashed after the captain got back in the cockpit.
 
tomlee
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 123):

Basically there is no way to completely detect insanity it is easy for someone totally insane to just lie or even worse believe in their lies as the truth so even if you had a perfect lie detector a very insane person would be telling the "truth".

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 126):
Yet it was one of the guys that would have had the code that is being accused of intentionally flying an airplane into the ground. The Egypt Air crash that the NTSB ruled as intentional still crashed after the captain got back in the cockpit.

The captain didn't realize in time. Having an outside override which requires many crew members still makes sense if they don't just want to crash the plane directly but have a particular position in mind.

The problem with having a code that someone knows is that you can force it out of them potentially and it has a single point of failure. (Not to mention they already have a code) Which is why they have the override lockdown mode for the door which disables code entry.

Multi-crew override would solve these problems by having devices which crew members as individuals can erase so that the override can't be used if terrorists tried to get the override devices.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 125):
My point is: We want ordinary sane pilots. Why do we offer many of them an insane career path? Can ordinary sane pilots grown insane by being treated in an insane way?

Because it has always been and remains one of the few jobs that people are willing to not only go into debt to get trained, but pay money to actually go work somewhere. And work for next to nothing.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:32 am

The pilots unions don't want progress in this area. They refuse to allow the mental health records of pilots to be known. They want pilots to be able to have any mental illness, and as long as they can hide it, to be able to fly. They also don't want cameras in the cockpit. They don't want to be watched.

The fact is, you can be an airline pilot, be seeing a shrink for some mental illness, and there is no way your airline will know about it. Until you snap.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 20):
Communication would be via the airplane's satcom, or ACARS. But these things can be disabled by the pilot, and would also open more opportunities for unlawful interference...

Not every airplane has these and in a lot of cases, the ACARS system can be MEL'd. There was also an incident recently where the captain left to use the lav and was unable to get back in the cockpit. The FO landed the airplane without incident. If the system itself like any other mechanical or electrical device simply stops working, then what? All the technology and gadgets in the world can and do break or can be disabled by humans.
 
undertheradar
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:43 am

sorry to be blunt....but just another event...and once again the media are looking for 'blame'..'procedures' may change...but at the end of thee day...HUMANS CANT PREDICT THE ACTS OF OTHER HUMANS...yes...we will do our best to give a perception of 'safety' ...but there is NEVER a guarantee... HUMANS will always be the weakest link to ANY event that kills other humans
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 127):
Basically there is no way to completely detect insanity it is easy for someone totally insane to just lie or even worse believe in their lies as the truth so even if you had a perfect lie detector a very insane person would be telling the "truth".

A person does not have to be diagnosed as insane to have some life event or other life experience trigger suicide or mass murder in this case. Insane people throughout history have also been some of the most intelligent and duplicitous ones as well.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 131):
sorry to be blunt....but just another event...and once again the media are looking for 'blame'..'procedures' may change...but at the end of thee day...HUMANS CANT PREDICT THE ACTS OF OTHER HUMANS...yes...we will do our best to give a perception of 'safety' ...but there is NEVER a guarantee... HUMANS will always be the weakest link to ANY event that kills other humans

Best post of this thread.
 
tomlee
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 132):

Exactly what I said. It is impossible to effectively control. Which is why you have procedures and engineering controls to mitigate if it does occur. Insanity likely is linked with intelligence which is probably why it is so hard to detect.

A multi-crew door override makes sense and solves the problem of someone inside the cockpit using the door lock override maliciously. Whoever designed the system clearly didn't think things through completely.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 134):
A multi-crew door override makes sense and solves the problem of someone inside the cockpit using the door lock override maliciously. Whoever designed the system clearly didn't think things through completely.

And what happens when the suicidal pilot nose dives?
 
bleudefrance
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:57 am

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 131):

The total security in any area is impossible, as perfection is virtually impossible, but there are still many aspects that can be improved.
 
bleudefrance
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:27 pm

RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:01 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):

The tecnhology has to prevent this to happen.
 
Aither
Posts: 1309
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:01 am

Only women with children should be allowed to pilot. They never suicide.
Never trust the obvious
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 137):
The tecnhology has to prevent this to happen.

What are you talking about? Let's just invent crash proof airplanes while we're at it
 
bleudefrance
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:27 pm

RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):

Should be impossible in a commercial plane a pilot to be able to completely dive the nose of an airplane. With all the technology that exists today, it is incomprehensible that something like this may be even possible.

There is so much that can still be done to improve air safety.
 
undertheradar
Posts: 409
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 136):

and that's my point!!! we may improve...but we will NEVER achieve 'perfection' .. so the cycle of imperfections will continue as they occur, day to day...month to month..year to year...and century to century!!!
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 135):

Again did MH370 or germanwings nose dive, no they didn't. So this rare thing has happened possibly twice. The door lock as it exists right now is not sufficient.

Another thing it covers is a hijacking with intent to hit another target nearby. All it does is provide a possibility a good cabin crew and passengers can fight back.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
What are you talking about? Let's just invent crash proof airplanes while we're at it

Isn't that the point of air safety and engineering airplanes that are safer than ever? These things you fly in are called a piece of technology.
 
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b787900
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 136):

It's true. That said, the practice common on most major US airlines seems to be the best and most reasonable option at the moment. It is a good idea to have a flight attendant present in the cockpit when one of the pilots is away/in the lavatory. It is so simply because, in the event that a pilot suddenly suffers a heart attack, stroke, or is no longer capable of remaining at the controls of the aircraft that there is at least someone to report the situation to other crew members immediately. Lastly, having too much security could potentially be just as bad as having none.
Flew in: 717, 732-7M9, 744, 74H, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L, 77W, 788, 789, 781, 223, 313, 318, 319, 32D, 320, 32A, 32N, 321, 32B, 32Q, 332, 333, 343, 346, 359, 351, 388, M11, M88, ER3, ER4, E70, E75, E90, E95, CR2, CR7, CR9, F50, F70, AN-24, TU5
 
AA777
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 140):
Should be impossible in a commercial plane a pilot to be able to completely dive the nose of an airplane. With all the technology that exists today, it is incomprehensible that something like this may be even possible.

There is so much that can still be done to improve air safety.

Disagree. There are far many more situations in which the pilot needs FULL directional control of an aircraft in an emergency, in poor weather, in case of depressurization. Just because this guy appears to have deliberately crashed the airplane -- for whatever reason -- doesnt mean we now need to say, "he cant dive the plane." What if he was in a collision course or having a near miss?

Besides, this guy didn't completely nosedive. He went into a controlled descent.
 
eastern747
Posts: 579
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:24 am

My thoughts and prayers go out to those who have to go and clean up this mess. I couldn't do it, for sure. Even though the remains are not whole bodies or specific, it's still chilling. (so much so too to those folks who clean up after auto accidents)It takes strong souls who help us all. Dear God, what are you thinking?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 140):
Should be impossible in a commercial plane a pilot to be able to completely dive the nose of an airplane. With all the technology that exists today, it is incomprehensible that something like this may be even possible.

Technology isn't magic. I wish technology was as good as you describe. If we could do what you say we could (without unintended consequences) we wouldn't even need pilots. Technology breaks, your hypothetical safety feature can malfunction and cause even more problems. What happens when the pilots cannot override your little feature and it goes haywire? Airbus has some safeguards on its aircraft but those break and can be overridden

As it stands, the number of pilots intentionally nose diving is completely overshadowed by computers malfunctioning

Quoting tomlee (Reply 142):
Again did MH370

Since when was MH370's cause known? I'd go to the authorities with your information since you apparently know more than them

Quoting tomlee (Reply 142):
germanwings nose dive, no they didn't.

So had this system been in place, you think the pilot would just chill in a controlled descent and wait for the other pilot to get in and stop him? I guess it's possible but call me crazy, I don't think that would have been the case

Quoting tomlee (Reply 143):
Isn't that the point of air safety and engineering airplanes that are safer than ever?

Yes but that doesn't mean every idea is a good one or that every problem can be solved. That doesn't mean "give up," that means think things through and don't make knee jerk decisions
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting hmmmm... (Reply 129):
The pilots unions don't want progress in this area. They refuse to allow the mental health records of pilots to be known. They want pilots to be able to have any mental illness, and as long as they can hide it, to be able to fly.

You're damn right they don't want the mental health records of pilots to be known, because they don't want their members dragged through the mud and potentially losing their medical certificates because they happen to be human and need some counseling from time to time.

You are, however, very wrong about the unions not wanting progress in this area. They do. They want the regulators to stop treating mental issues as if it's the 1930s and allow pilots to get treatment for the issues they have (just like any other person) without the risk of having to spend lots of time and money saving their careers (which, incidentally, is unlikely to help anyone suffering from depression feel better about themselves). The regulators are the ones holding this back, not the unions.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: What To Do About Pilot Suicide

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:34 am

Suicidality is a tricky thing. I'm a psychologist and I'm trained to assess for these things. There are ways to test for things that would lead to increased risk for suicidal behavior, but nothing is 100% fool proof. There are people who will not appear suicidal on tests, there are people who will lie straight to your face in an interview. The numerous factors related to increased suicidal risk:

- Active mood disorder -- e.g., depression, bipolar disorder
- History of suicide completed parent/relative
- Impulsivity
- Psychotic disorders -- e.g., schizoprhenia
- Health problems
- Personality Disorders -- e.g., Borderline PD
- Substance abuse
- Males
- White Males
- Older Age White Male
- Recently unemployed
- Financial Trouble
- Relational Difficulties
- Previous Suicide Attempts

There are tests we can give that will assess for almost all of these things (psychopathology) -- but again, NOTHING is fool proof and we cant give pilots psych assessments every week to ensure that they have not become suicidal in recent days. As you can see, many things increase one's risk - but they dont necessarily mean one WILL become suicidal. Also, one does not always actually STAY suicidal for an extended period of time. We have to be better about provided resources for mental health to people in such jobs, in addition to making smart protocol choices re: who is in the cockpit, how cockpits can be entered, etc.

I wonder less if this guy was simply depressed, and more if he had a serious mental illness or some kind of thought disorder. It seems very bizarre for a classically depressed person to do something like this. Also, not to be a conspiracy theorist, but one does wonder about outside forces/duress/blackmail/extortion/threatening loved ones causing him to do this.


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