Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:34 pm

And we are rolling part 9 now.

Here the link to part 8 again:

Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 8 (by wilco737 Mar 26 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
heyjoojoo
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:28 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:36 pm

600 hours seems like an unusually low number of hours but I could be wrong for FO's.

What is the identity of the FO? Was that released?
 
User avatar
Joshu
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 1):
What is the identity of the FO? Was that released?

Yes, Andreas Lubitz.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 255): (thread part 8)

Yes, but the reinforced and security locked cockpit doors were designed to eliminate the risk of 911-style hijackers. Now we find that while they do indeed achieve that (if only by deterrence) since nobody has succeeded in hijacking a plane in this way since, they have introduced a totally new risk that didn't exist before. Many here, from all parts of the world, would point out that the certainty of would-be hijackers being tackled by crew and passengers before they even get to the cockpit door is better deterrence.
If the facts in this particular case are as have been officially stated so far, all having a gun in the cockpit would have meant is that the co-pilot need not have waited until the pilot left the cockpit, he could have shot him instead.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26599
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 260):
Now it is likely that149 People have been murdered by one guy who not only had Access to the Cockpit but could also lock himself in, thanks to the law which is based on kneejerk reactions after 9/11.


Yet you have no way of knowing how many terrorists have decided to not bother trying a 9/11 style attack due to these same measures.

Locking the cockpit door happened to a large degree because large numbers of passengers insisted that it happen.

I doubt we'll ever go back to unlocked cockpit doors. If the pilot is suicidal then it's next to impossible to prevent what just happened.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4536
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:41 pm

Emotional statement from LH CEO. Confirming the suicidal accident.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20094
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 1):
600 hours seems like an unusually low number of hours but I could be wrong for FO's.

Seriously? It's 300 2-hour flights. Just how many flight hours should an FO have before being allowed in a plane? More importantly, where are they supposed to get them?   
 
s5daw
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:15 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 219):
Setting the AP to the lowest setting is not something you would do in an emergency.

..unless you are in a medical distress... double vision could potentially make 100 look like 10000. Slow breathing doesn't fit somebody facing death, even if it's deliberate.

I really feel like we are convicting this guy too soon, with too little information. And he can not even defend himself.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 1):
600 hours seems like an unusually low number of hours but I could be wrong for FO's.

You got to start from 0 somehow. Identity of pilot that was locked out of cockpit is Patrick Sonderheimer.
 
User avatar
InsideMan
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 248):
I see very soon the crew having some sort of device which monitor the heart beat and such vital signs as acars data transmitted .
I see a third pilot on remote ground base following many flight as back up.
I see protected direct line in cabin with groung operator.
I see second crew mandatory in cockpit at all time.
I see ways of having a pee without having to leave your seat.

I'd say you see way too much.

I highly highly doubt remote flying, as the risk of a hacker gaining access to the system is way too big.

FA entering the cockpit when one pilot steps out is a no-brainer and while someone might have the guts to fly 150 people into the ground it takes a lot more courage to kill someone next to you actively.
 
Luftfahrer
Posts: 966
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:27 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:44 pm

This is the worst possible outcome   Technical fault, pilot error... bad enough but deliberate action? Unspeakable, absolutely devastating.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4536
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:47 pm

Spohr confirmed the A320 door locking system - if pilot inside cockpit sends system to locked, the door cannot be opened for 5 minutes.

Co-Pilot had taken a break in his training for several months, was re-checked before being allowed to re-start training. No comment on which reasons, he said german law prevents him to comment on medical issues, and whether there have been medical issues at all in the first place.
 
FlyingAY
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:26 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 1):
600 hours seems like an unusually low number of hours but I could be wrong for FO's.

Well, the FOs need to start somewhere. If you consider that pilot education costs $100k and gives you something like 200 flight hours, there would not be many pilots if you had to have thousands of hours before you could be an FO.

Captains typically need to have some thousands of hours though.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting holzmann:
Would an FA recognize the difference of a pilot reaching for a cup of coffee and adjusting the FL? No offense but this is still valid. Then again, an FA would most likely want to engage the pilot in chit-chat and that alone would be enough I suppose.

Maybe but the FA would recognize the pilot is literally screaming to get back in the cockpit and wondering why the co-pilot isn't letting him in.
 
starrymarkb
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:50 pm

In the US I believe they need 1500 to even start on an RJ.
 
flymia
Posts: 7137
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 1):

600 hours seems like an unusually low number of hours but I could be wrong for FO's.

Not for anywhere but the U.S. and Canada. There are 300-600 hour FOs all over the world flying A320s, 737s, A330s, 777 etc.. Its fairly typical as A. there are less pilots out there so lower time guys get jobs. B. Many of the airlines run their own training programs from 0 hours to 250 hours and stick them in a right seat after that. There really is nothing inherently wrong with it as long as the training program is good, and the Captains are top notch. Also, general aviation flying is not like it is in the U.S. and Canada in other areas of the world.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 6):
Seriously? It's 300 2-hour flights. Just how many flight hours should an FO have before being allowed in a plane? More importantly, where are they supposed to get them?

In the U.S. 1500 hours.
 
namezero111111
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:05 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 1):
Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 14):

I think this is an example of a crash where hours of experience didn't matter.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14681
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 256):
Why would a German pilot have an FAA Certification?

Cheaper and easier access to flight training in the US ? Lower medical restrictions ? Can train in places that have good weather year round ?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 255):
I totally understand where you are coming from. As above tradeoffs have already been made, but perhaps need to be recalibrated. Unfortunately a "kill or be killed" situation can arise in real life, and it's hard to argue that the best tool to deal with such a situation is a tool designed to kill. In the US a percentage of pilots feel they want such a tool and are willing to prove they are trained correctly to use it. Of course there is a risk that the pilot could use it to kill the other pilot, but such risk is deemed to be lower than the risk of a terrorist trying to take over the plane using force. There is no zero risk option. Every option has risk. Deciding to get on an aircraft is deciding to accept risk.

Well the killer was in the cockpit, so by adding a firearm to the mix, you just gave him another weapon.

Of course if firearms were prevalent in Europe he might have offed himself at home instead.
 
D L X
Posts: 12722
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 260):
Now it is likely that149 People have been murdered by one guy who not only had Access to the Cockpit but could also lock himself in, thanks to the law which is based on kneejerk reactions after 9/11.


Yet you have no way of knowing how many terrorists have decided to not bother trying a 9/11 style attack due to these same measures.


Exactly right. Putting the door locks on has effectively ended passengers entering the cockpit. There have been zero passenger hijacks since, a fifty think back through the history of aviation, hijacking was more common than pilot suicide.

This is the nature of multiple threat environments: when you completely neutralize one threat, the next one in line becomes more apparent. But that doesn't mean rolling back the advancement.
 
User avatar
mikelive
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:45 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 10):

This is the worst possible outcome   Technical fault, pilot error... bad enough but deliberate action? Unspeakable, absolutely devastating.

As an AvGeek, I am horrified and heartbroken by the news that I woke up to.

I just pray that the families and friends of those aboard are able to get closure someday.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10343
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
Of course if firearms were prevalent in Europe he might have offed himself at home instead.

No, that is more they type the wrong lane on the highway and smashes into other cars. I still think the door system needs to improved. It should only allow a full lock-in if somebody outside the cockpit triggered an emergency situation.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
Of course if firearms were prevalent in Europe he might have offed himself at home instead.

Or a knife or a noose or pills or jumping in front of a moving vehicle or getting sucked into a jet engine etc works just as well.
 
starrymarkb
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
Cheaper and easier access to flight training in the US ? Lower medical restrictions ? Can train in places that have good weather year round ?

The Lufthansa flying school is in Arizona IIRC.
 
LXLucien
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:51 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:00 pm

"NO immediate actions are taken, such as FA in the Cockpit when one of the Pilots is leaving the flight deck." CEO LH

[Edited 2015-03-26 07:01:14]
 
jreuschl
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:04 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:01 pm

I'm saddened to think of the horror the pilot, FAs, and passengers were going through on the flight. At some point they had to know something was wrong.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2971
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:02 pm

I am sure most people on the forum can understand some sort of depression and some even have had thoughts of suicide at some point in their life but most never got anywhere near execution.

But the thought of him being so absorbed in his own misery and self loathing that he probably never even considered the lives of the 149 people behind him is incomprehensible! But unfortunately and evidentially possible. Of course we will never know his exact motivations.
 
runway23
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:03 pm

I think the crash presents a few changes for airlines in Europe and around the world:

-Background check and emotional checks need to be increased. I have a hard time believing suicidal tendencies were not visible to people around the FO.
-Two people in the cockpit, seems that a couple of airlines are already implementing this. LH Group should really have this up and running by tomorrow if they have any brains.

Additionally, I really do wonder why we see such a high degree of airline pilot suicides whereas it remains extremely rare for bus driver or train drivers.
 
User avatar
BubbleFrog
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:57 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 26):
But the thought of him being so absorbed in his own misery and self loathing that he probably never even considered the lives of the 149 people behind him is incomprehensible! But unfortunately and evidentially possible. Of course we will never know his exact motivations.

I would venture that when you come to that final point, you don't think about anyone else's life any more. At all.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11886
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:05 pm

Very disturbing indeed. Hope the families can get closure some day.

I have done a summary of all threads. If there is something I have missed, incorrect or needs updating just let me know.

4U9525 departed BCN at 10.01 heading to DUS
Reached cruise at FL380 at 10.45
Left cruise at 10.46
Decent for 8 minutes, ATC lost signal at 10.53 at 6000ft
Crashed into the valley of white on one side of the mountain of the Three Bishoprics. Rough terrain up to 3000m high
Weather was good
A320 D-AIPX ex LH cn 147, manufactured November 1990, delivered 29/11/90, with 4U since January 2014
58,300 flight hours, 46,700 cycles
Last A Check Monday 23rd March 2014
Last C Check in summer 2013
Captain with LH & 4U for 10 years, 6000 flight hours on A320
144 passengers and 6 crew on board
Known nationalities include
Germany 72
Spain 35
Australia 2
Argentina 2
Iran 2
Venezuela 2
US 2
UK 1
Netherlands 1
Columbia 1
Mexico 1
Japan 1
Israel 1
Denmark 1
Belgium 1
Other nationalities to be confirmed 25
CVR found, damaged but readable
BEA leading investigation, assisted by BFU and Spanish equivalent
Technical advisors from Airbus, Germanwings & Lufthansa assisting
Reports FDR found (though nothing confirmed), severely damaged with memory chip dislodged and missing
NYT Report – one of the pilots outside of cockpit, co-pilot alone in cockpit while pilot went to the toilet
Co-pilot did not answer when pilot wanted to enter cockpit, co-pilot refused to open door
Breathing heard inside cockpit until crash
ATC requested pilots to declare 1700 emergency but no answer, no mayday or emergency called
Victim Identification starts today, 26 march 2015
Current investigation makes it likely that co-pilot crash the plane deliberately, more details on co-pilot’s background to be provided later


BEA comments/findings so far

Wednesday Press Conference
Priority will be given to finding recorders and finding main components of aircraft, then certain choices will be made to recuperate and analyze certain parts of the plane made difficult by aircraft parts scattered all over
The aircraft has followed the planned route; it was cruising at 38000ft. Last message to ATC was around 1030am. The message was routine and was allowed to continue as normal.
About one minute later aircraft started a decent until the last radar position, the impact at the impact site about 10 minutes later.
Last altitude recorder by radar was 6000 feet.
Cannot tell why aircraft descended and why contact was lost
Flight Recorder found (CVR) found Tuesday was received by us at 945am Wednesday
The important part containing data is in our hands
The work of reading this has begun immediately and some difficulty has been met but we have succeeded extracting an audio file than can be used
It’s too early to draw to conclusions on what happened
We need to work on the file to decipher all the details in the file
Have audio for whole length of the flight, need to work on the information in conjunction with the FDR (once recovered) to refine the comprehension of the flight so they can transcribe the data, will communicate once they have more information
Could take several weeks or months
Have not found the second flight recorder (FDR)
Cannot confirm that no element if the second flight recorder were found
Have no knowledge of any flight recorder that has been totally destroyed in whole aviation history
Crash site Not too big so shouldn’t have too much finding FDR and being able to fully analyze flight data
Will scour whole area and do everything necessary to find second flight recorder (FDR)
3000ft per minute descent (constant) radar data
Will close no door on cause of crash
BEA says the aviation world has had a lot of mishaps so the context is difficult but the work will be done and we will take all the time necessary aside from all the emotional feed coming from the crash
The radar trajectory goes to some hundred meters of the crash point; the aircraft flew to the end
debris and distribution of debris does not suggest there was an explosion on board the aircraft
Debris is small and shows an impact on a very hard surface at very high speed
Will look at all weather data at departure, during flight and at crash point to see if this can be a factor for the crash but nothing shows any weather problems
Will look if the accident is a result of a technical problem or intentional action, have no information on this yet so cannot tell for the time being
Techies from the airline and Airbus will participate in the inquest
Some BEA people are onsite, they are not there to inspect precisely certain debris but to find the missing recorder and examine certain debris they have found, with some that may be repatriated to a lab
Will start transcribing the first recorder (CVR) asap before they find the second recorder (FDR)
Hope to find second recorder (FDR) soon
Too early to tell about engines – not one engine failure or 2 engine failure
Will look into professional backgrounds of pilots but their names will be not be made public

Regards

QF789
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2140
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:05 pm

From part 8:

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 266):
Many here, from all parts of the world, would point out that the certainty of would-be hijackers being tackled by crew and passengers before they even get to the cockpit door is better deterrence.

   And IIRC, when it has occurred has been 100% successful. When it has happened, the perpetrator has been swarmed upon by passengers/crew. With the way people react to these situations now, one would wonder if cockpits door locks should be reconsidered?
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:06 pm

This is his FB page?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Andreas-Lubitz-co-pilote/1378412899150339?fref=ts
 
vfw614
Posts: 4031
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:07 pm

As cyncial as it may sound, but this cause of the crash is, reputation-wise, probably a less worse outcome for Lufthansa and Airbus than a maintenance fault, a pilot error or a construction problem. Given the hundreds of thousands of airline pilots around the globe, statistically there must be quite a few mentally disturbed folks around, despite all psychological assessment etc. As long as the pilot has the final say about the plane and not a computer or remote controller, it is bound to happen again unless procedures can be made fool proof. But even then, no guarantee. Someone who is about to kill 150 people could probably just as well kill the other pilot in the cockpit before crashing the plane with the remaining 149. Makes it only more difficult, but not impossible.
 
User avatar
BubbleFrog
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:57 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 27):
I have a hard time believing suicidal tendencies were not visible to people around the FO.

Then why are so many people hit out of the blue by a suicide in their vicinity? It's not that so many people just look away, ignore, or don't want to see. They really don't see it.

I said it before, I say it again (provided the reports are true): It might have even be an almost surprise (wrong word, but I can't think of a better one right now) to the man himself. Suicides can be rather spontaneous.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20094
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 13):
Maybe but the FA would recognize the pilot is literally screaming to get back in the cockpit and wondering why the co-pilot isn't letting him in.

Seriously, if the lone pilot is determined to crash the plane, an FA in the cockpit would likely be disabled first. Not difficult given, statistically, most pilots are male and most FAs female.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13847
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 31):
This is his FB page?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Andreas-Lubitz-co-pilote/1378412899150339?fref=ts

Nope,
Looks like it is a 1 hour old joke.
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Posts: 3020
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:10 pm

Dude, if you want to kill yourself, take a rope and do it at home. But don't take 149 people in your fall.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4536
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):
Seriously, if the lone pilot is determined to crash the plane, an FA in the cockpit would likely be disabled first. Not difficult given, statistically, most pilots are male and most FAs female.

However, in this case the pilot waited until his collegue left the door. So someone else in the cockpit might have been a psychological hurdle.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:11 pm

Would it be a good idea to have a biometric recognition of the cockpit crew and maybe the chief Purser to overwrite any lock out?

If the construction of the cockpit door has any chance to keep the captain out of his cockpit then something is very wrong with this construction.
 
flymia
Posts: 7137
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 10):
echnical fault, pilot error... bad enough but deliberate action? Unspeakable, absolutely devastating.

While it is a horrible finding, I would say it is better for those not directly involved to know the airplane is safe, the pilot training was fine, nothing went wrong that was in the control of the airline or manufactures. It was a deliberate human act, like MH 17 and likely MH 370. Its another horrible act but it shows that the airplane is safe.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 20):
It should only allow a full lock-in if somebody outside the cockpit triggered an emergency situation.

The reason for the locks the way they are now makes perfect sense and I see no reason to change it. You do not want to have someone in the cabin to have access into the cockpit unless it is actually needed. If someone in the cabin such as a FA has access to the cockpit no matter what (unless some emergency alarm is triggered like you said) then potential hijackers would want to threaten flight crews with their lives to gain access. The pilots should always have the final say who comes into the cockpit.

The simple solution. Always have two people in the cockpit. If there was an FA in that cockpit things likely would had gone much differently.

One of the flight attendants was a licensed pilot, working on becoming an airline pilot. He was also a member of the flight simulator program FS2CREW team as a beta tester and the voice of the German FO on the Dash-8-400 and PMDG 777 FS2CREW programs. Not saying he would had been the extra person in the cockpit, but if he would had been the person to take the extra seat things would had gone completely differently.

I imagine procedures will change overnight at almost all airlines around the world regarding this.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26599
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):
Seriously, if the lone pilot is determined to crash the plane, an FA in the cockpit would likely be disabled first. Not difficult given, statistically, most pilots are male and most FAs female.

Indeed. Besides, can you imagine the FA training classes for this? "In case the co-pilot seems to be suicidal and the Captain is in the loo and the plane begins to descend..."
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):

In the cramped space of an A320 cockpit, I find this highly unlikely. Just how do you "disable" the FA in such quick fashion? Snapping someone's neck isn't so easy as one think.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:13 pm

I have not been on a.net since yesterday - what did I miss?

Seriously, what a horrible turn of events. In addition to sad and tragic, now you can add senseless to the description of this awful crash. A terrorist or sabotage event was not ruled out, of course, but it wasn't the way I expected this investigation to go.

So now we (or at least the investigators) know the "what" - we know more or less what happened on the aircraft, especially during that critical minute when the aircraft reached cruise altitude but prior to the start of the fatal descent. I think coming up with the "why" is going to take a little longer, and the final outcome may not satisfy everybody, especially the victims' relatives.

I think what makes me most upset is that we now know there was suffering by those onboard. The passengers had some time to realize they were in trouble, even grave danger, and then sheer terror in their final moments as the mountains would have started looming out of the windows. Absolutely awful.

I am very sad for all involved. My heart goes out to all Germanwings employees and crew today. Not good times for them at all.
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 32):
As cyncial as it may sound, but this cause of the crash is, reputation-wise, probably a less worse outcome for Lufthansa and Airbus than a maintenance fault, a pilot error or a construction problem.

I withdraw my comment.

[Edited 2015-03-26 07:36:29]
 
dare100em
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:31 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):

Well the killer was in the cockpit, so by adding a firearm to the mix, you just gave him another weapon.

Of course if firearms were prevalent in Europe he might have offed himself at home instead.

There are ways to kill yourselft easily beside a gun without taking 149 People with you. A Person thinking about killing only himself would've know this. Somehow this guy wanted to take people with him. Why that Sound s strange this is a well know phenomen, e.g. puplic Shooting of others, than shoot yourself. I needs an awfull low emphaty-level to do what he has done, especially without outside pressure. But it is absolutely inside Limits what humans can do.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13847
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 38):

If the construction of the cockpit door has any chance to keep the captain out of his cockpit then something is very wrong with this construction.

No , this issue can happen both ways.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_Airways_Flight_191

In the above case, they needed to keep the captain out of the cockpit.
 
capri
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:32 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:15 pm

We tend to forget that pilots are humans too, despite what they go through in training and security checks, they can snap at any short notice.

All we can do now is pray the Almighty to have Mercy on all those souls.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 36):
Dude, if you want to kill yourself, take a rope and do it at home. But don't take 149 people in your fall.

Well, since this dude was a pilot and has access to a flightline, I'd would argue "Go get sucked into an A380 EA7000 or RR Trent 900" *cough*.. That's just me.
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 45):
In the above case, they needed to keep the captain out of the cockpit.

Which he was subdued by passengers. Passengers are a wonderful thing to have because there are overwhelmingly a majority of people that will choose to fight. 9/11 really changed people's thinkings and a lot of people have been convinced to fight than to sit back and do nothing.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:17 pm

What sort of storage do both black boxes use? Normal hard drives would never survive the impact of a crash, and would jam, corrupting the data within. It either has to be a solid state drive (SSD) or flash memory?

-LPDAL
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3584
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9

Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 30):
And IIRC, when it has occurred has been 100% successful. When it has happened, the perpetrator has been swarmed upon by passengers/crew. With the way people react to these situations now, one would wonder if cockpits door locks should be reconsidered?

Right, it's really hard to quantify what effect locked doors have had on hijackings when it's never gotten to that point since 9/11. I would certainly argue that preventing weapons from getting on board has been a much better deterrent than anything - in the past, hijackers rarely needed to rush the cockpit, they would often just announce to the f/a that a bomb or gun was on board. This is how most hijackings started.

Better screening for weapons combined with air marshals and the knowledge that passengers will no longer just let a hijacker take over would prevent 100% of passenger hijackings on their own.

What we do know, though, is that the 9/11-style security door has now killed everyone on this plane.

You can bet the design of these doors and locks is going to be changed one way or another. It is no different than a crash with any other design flaw as a contributing factor. When DC-10's started crashing because of the way cargo doors locked, they changed the cargo door locks. The same will happen here. I don't understand why someone would even suggest otherwise, unless they just wanted to be argumentative for arguments' sake.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos