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Mortyman
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Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:51 pm

Norwegian change their routines in the cockpit

- We are changing our procedures in this minute, so that at any time shall be two people in the cockpit, said flight director in Norwegian Air Norway AS, Gudmund Taraldsen

- Now it will be such that at any given time there must be two crew members inside the cockpit. If one of the pilots go out, one from the cabin crew has to be in the cockpit that time one pilot is out. We go thus in line with the US regulations, says Taraldsen.


- We do this considering the safety of both passengers and pilots.


Immediate effect

European legislation sets, however, no requirement that there must be more than one person in the cockpit at all times.

Thus it is up to the individual airlines to set their own routines.

Taraldsen does not deny that the rule change in Norwegian is accelerated as a result of the plane crash in the French Alps on Tuesday.

- We will not hide the fact that this has reinforced our view of the rule change, says Taraldsen.

- However, we have talked about the differences between European and American regulations long, so we've had it on the block for a while.

Norwegian want the rule change shall come into force with immediate effect.

http://www.nrk.no/norge/endrer-rutinene-etter-flystyrt-1.12282226
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:26 pm

This should have been done long ago.

I am in disbelief that Europe allowed one person in the cockpit.

I was also in disbelief when cabin jumpseating on VS a few years ago that the purser just enters and exits the cockpit throughout the flight without setting up a blockade. And this was on a flight to the US.

Security rules in Europe were/are lax for the post 9/11 world.

Unfortunately, while the second person in the cockpit helps this situation, the FA would be hard pressed to stop a maniac pilot from downing the plane.
 
n729pa
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:50 pm

According to BBC News, Easyjet and Air Canada are doing likewise too
 
usflyguy
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):

Unfortunately, while the second person in the cockpit helps this situation, the FA would be hard pressed to stop a maniac pilot from downing the plane.

but it's a lot easier for someone to open the locked door from the inside than it is from the outside, yes?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
gkirk
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
Security rules in Europe were/are lax for the post 9/11 world.

Ah yes, the day where American security was found to be complete and utterly top notch... 
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
but it's a lot easier for someone to open the locked door from the inside than it is from the outside, yes?

Yes and we potentially will hear the scuffle on the voice recorder so we will know what happened. There are other benefits I am sure. Not a lot of downside with this regulation change.

tortugamon
 
anstar
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
I am in disbelief that Europe allowed one person in the cockpit.

I was also in disbelief when cabin jumpseating on VS a few years ago that the purser just enters and exits the cockpit throughout the flight without setting up a blockade. And this was on a flight to the US.

And how many hijacks have happened on EU carriers since 911?
 
bueb0g
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
Security rules in Europe were/are lax for the post 9/11 world.

This one really puzzles me. Why would 9/11 affect American security more than European security? Baffling.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
DDR
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:27 pm

It doesn't. I think it's just more of a culture thing. Plus on 9/11 the deaths happened on U.S. soil so it's not surprising that the U.S. took a more direct response.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:41 pm

I think you hit the nail on the head. America was attacked, not Europe. Even though there is a sense of "We are all in this together" there is also a sense of "It happened there not here"

No one wants to live in a security state. I think that is a problem America has continually grappled with since 9/11. How much is too much? How much is not enough?

As for airlines and aviation.

TSA is a joke. Does nothing except hassle people.

But on the inside, there are glaring holes. This attack has addressed two:

1. How/when/where/why the cockpit is accessed during normal operation

2. The Rogue pilot that goes over to the other side.

Home grown terror is a real threat in the Western world. Whether or not this FO was backed by a terror group is irrelevant at this point. This crash shows the vulnerability from within the cockpit when a pilot chooses to inflict terror (be it through backing from a larger group or on his own)
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 2):
According to BBC News, Easyjet and Air Canada are doing likewise too

The Wall Street Journal says Emirates is following too.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
diverted
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
But on the inside, there are glaring holes. This attack has addressed two:

1. How/when/where/why the cockpit is accessed during normal operation

Why can I foresee the flight deck jumpseat becoming off limits very soon  

There goes the oversell insurance policy  


EDIT: I don't work for Norwegian so my post has nothing to do with THEIR jumpseat policy; I was speaking of my own employer's

[Edited 2015-03-26 12:45:10]
 
DDR
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 11):

I really don't see the cockpit jumpseat going away. Too many rely on it to get to/from work. The unions would never stand for it.
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:53 pm

This will result in either decreased service quality or additional staffing costs... I am afraid it will be the first option.

Typically, if you are in first class on a US airline, the pilot going to the loo results in:
- service stopping completely in the cabin
- noone allowed to move
- obviously first class passengers not able to use the toilet.

It has happened to me many times to be stuck in my seat for 10-15 minutes when I badly needed to go because the pilot had to have a chat with his crew... very annoying. Great to know the 748 has its own toilet for the crew, and I am hoping this will be generalized. Obviously increased security will also bring up increased complaints.

I do understand, though, that the crew needs to use that space too... however it should be taken in to account and modern airliners should be designed with safety and passenger comfort in mind.

I know, I am lucky to have this sort of problem...
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 13):
Typically, if you are in first class on a US airline, the pilot going to the loo results in:
- service stopping completely in the cabin
- noone allowed to move
- obviously first class passengers not able to use the toilet.

It has happened to me many times to be stuck in my seat for 10-15 minutes when I badly needed to go because the pilot had to have a chat with his crew... very annoying.

Wow. Just wow. How someone could have these thoughts and think they are valid in this discussion is beyond me.

tortugamon
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:37 pm

I think these comments are very valid. Of course people are in shock, I also am.

But if that one event brings knee-jerk reactions, it still raises other issues, including an increased workload for crews going forward, and annoyance for millions of passengers if things are only half thought through... Are crews not busy enough, particularly on short flights?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 15):

So take a flight attendant from Coach and put them in First to cover the needy customers. And if you need to use the potty and can't hold it, head back to coach. And if you need to complain about poor service, complain to someone else. No sympathy here and I am a primary first class/business class passenger.

tortugamon
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
So take a flight attendant from Coach and put them in First to cover the needy customers.

This has a cost, airlines may not be wiling to do it.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
And if you need to use the potty and can't hold it, head back to coach

I know people do it a lot, but in theory moving across cabins is not allowed.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
And if you need to complain about poor service, complain to someone else.

Customers will complain to airlines. Noone is complaining to you.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
No sympathy here and I am a primary first class/business class passenger.

You are entitled to your opinions, and I am entitled to my opnions, etc.
 
anstar
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:00 pm

I am a bit sceptical of the knee jerk treactions.

Have Norwegian provided training to their cabin crews - what are they looking out for, what should their actions be? etc etc... I doubt it.. and without it it shouldn't be applied. Lets have a discussion/investigation about it.
 
undertheradar
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 13):

you are exactly correct..something has gotta give somewhere along the chain...this 'solution' only creates issues in the cabin (interruption of service due 1 less F/A in cabin, issues between cabin crew members because of 1 less member, issues bewteen pax and cabin crew because of 1 less crew member)....even for a period of a few mins, these interruptions will be detrimental to the service/s cabin crew must perform during flights...leading to a spike in pax complaints about (lack of) service...note in Aust, domestic pax DEMAND/EXPECT food/drinks service on EVERY flight, regardless of flight duration..our domestic sectors can range between 30min-4hrs with narrow body a/c and 2person flight crew, and operate with MIN cabin crew requirements.
This 'solution' could also have the potential for tensions between flight crew and cabin crew.
This 'solution' actually pushes the problems out into the public domain of the pax cabin!!.

So...solutions?...1 EXTRA F/A per flight =extra cost
1 EXTRA flight crew per flight=extra cost
DECREASE service levels in the cabin=pax dissatisfaction =cabin crew stresses
OR prevent flight crew from 'toilet breaks' inflight=flight crew dissatisfaction=unrealistic/illogical
AND 'crewless' flightdecks just opens up a WHOLE other range of issues

in effect....ANY solution just creates a new set of issues....ANY solution MUST involve a change in MINDSET/EXPECTAIONS of the airlines (management)AND/OR the flying public...any decisions will ultimately be based on a 'cost/benefit' analysis by each airline.

at the end of the day...humans are fundamentally flawed, and we will always stumble from one self induced crisis to another.

[Edited 2015-03-26 15:29:35]
 
seat38a
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
So take a flight attendant from Coach and put them in First to cover the needy customers. And if you need to use the potty and can't hold it, head back to coach. And if you need to complain about poor service, complain to someone else. No sympathy here and I am a primary first class/business class passenger.

On a typical A320 with with 3 FA's, one goes into the flight deck, one stands in front of the flight deck door so no one tries to rush the the flight deck. Also, sometimes I have seen the third stand in the back galley keeping an eye front as well. It's not a coach vs. first thing. Whenever the flight deck opens EVERYTHING stops on the plane and not just in first class.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:56 pm

My company already has these procedures and has had them for several years. Glad to see Norwegian learning though.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 17):
Quoting undertheradar (Reply 19):

Seriously guys it doesn't take that long to go to the bathroom? You both are being ridiculous. In the interest of a modicum of additional security if losing one flight attendant for two minutes ruins my experience in first class than I have bigger problems; like being an absolute putz.

tortugamon
 
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PA727
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 22):
Seriously guys it doesn't take that long to go to the bathroom? You both are being ridiculous. In the interest of a modicum of additional security if losing one flight attendant for two minutes ruins my experience in first class than I have bigger problems; like being an absolute putz.

tortugamon

Have to agree with tortugamon here. I am generally paid F/J and fly quite frequently. In the many years since this has been mandated in the U.S., it has been on maybe 10% of my flights (probably a stretch) where a crew member left the cockpit. And in the rare cases when it has happened, the five minutes it takes for the crew member to use the lav impacts nothing.

First off, the pilot/co-pilot are aware of what the in-flight service routine is, and I am certain, will take this into consideration. Second, if you expect to be a common occurrence on a 40 minute to one hour domestic flight, you're over-thinking things - I will grant the odds go up after two hours, physiology being what it is.

Actually, the more I think about it, the whole thing is being either over-thought or viewed through a selfish lens. People and service adapt, and I'm certain the "high level" of domestic European premium cabin service will not suffer just because a crew member needs five minutes to use the lav.
 
racko
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:28 am

Honestly, how do you stop someone who is authorized to be in the cockpit from crashing the plane? You can't.

With this 2 person rule implemented you just eliminate the "rogue pilot alone in the cockpit crashes aircraft" scenario by adding the "rogue FA steps into cockpit, stabs pilot, crashes aircraft" scenario.
 
JJJ
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:32 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Home grown terror is a real threat in the Western world. Whether or not this FO was backed by a terror group is irrelevant at this point. This crash shows the vulnerability from within the cockpit when a pilot chooses to inflict terror (be it through backing from a larger group or on his own)

Pilots are tested and controlled and until now not generally believed to be a potential threat.

Really, how much can you do to limit a pilot authority in the cabin without endangering the flight itself?

Since you're speaking from the US, is there anything to stop an armed pilot to just shoot his FO then fly the plane to the ground or terror target of choice?

Some tragedies are just inevitable.
 
racko
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:37 am

Looks like the "It's the law in the US" information is false:

https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/581248183340236800/photo/1
 
bourbon
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):

What if the flight attendant decides to kill the pilot and take the plane down? That is a huge downside.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting racko (Reply 24):
scenario

FA occupying empty seat is a common practice in few countries. So far it only resulted in few sexual harassment complaints, nothing more. No one can predict what happens in future, but lets hope for the best.
All posts are just opinions.
 
undertheradar
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 22):

you just answered your own question....btw...your 'first class' 'service' doesnt require full trolley/cart service on MANY of your domestic routes....i believe your 'service' consists of a 'basket' of snacks!! maybe you should read my whole post.

anyway..i wont enter into an argy bargy..you believe what you believe...and i believe what i believe
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:57 am

The average Norwegian flight attendants are petite Asian girls. They don't have combat training. Don't think they would be a major hindrance if some delusional pilot was on a suicidal mission.

[Edited 2015-03-26 20:58:39]
 
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b787900
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:57 am

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 29):

What tortugamon and PA727 mentioned is true whether you agree with it or not. But I suppose for some people in this world the so called "high level" of service on a European carrier is much more important than safety of those in the air and on the ground.
Flew in: 717, 732-7M9, 744, 74H, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L, 77W, 788, 789, 781, 223, 313, 318, 319, 32D, 320, 32A, 32N, 321, 32B, 32Q, 332, 333, 343, 346, 359, 351, 388, M11, M88, ER3, ER4, E70, E75, E90, E95, CR2, CR7, CR9, F50, F70, AN-24, TU5
 
N505fx
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):
Wow. Just wow. How someone could have these thoughts and think they are valid in this discussion is beyond me.

I flew over 100K miles last year, nearly all up front, and not once did I consider the safety procedures used the carriers to be an inconvenience. If holding my pee 10 mins longer means I get to have the luxury of being able to hold it in the future, I am ok with waiting for a refill on my drink or a refresh of my nuts.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:48 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 30):
The average Norwegian flight attendants are petite Asian girls. They don't have combat training. Don't think they would be a major hindrance if some delusional pilot was on a suicidal mission.

There are also many Americans wich are not always petite ... and ofcourse, it's not only females ... also many males. There is proabably more americans working for Norwegian than asians.

[Edited 2015-03-26 22:55:08]
 
BHXLOVER
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:42 am

There is no doubt that this latest tragedy has the potential to erode public trust in the flight deck crew. Maybe Pilots need to work hard to restore confidence, as if people do not fly, their jobs are on the line.

Up until now it has been commonplace to see pilots leaving the flight deck to go to the toilet. Who is to say that after this week, that sight may cause disquiet among some passengers ?

Many flights, like 4U 9525 are 2 hours duration or less. Would it be so difficult for pilots to try to ensure that they have been to the toilet before departure, and therefore limit the possibility of leaving the flight deck during the flight.

Quoting racko " Honestly, how do you stop someone who is authorized to be in the cockpit from crashing the plane? You can't."

People with depression are not necessarily likely to attack or murder others in cold blood. Its all about limiting the opportunity.

After all, it would seem that in this case, if the Captain had not gone to the toilet, all on board would still be alive.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Norwegian Change Their Routines In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:00 pm

Scandinavian Airlines (SAS/SK) has also decided to change the rules regarding the flight deck. From now on two members of the crew will always be present in the flight deck.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...regler-etter-flystyrt-7962431.html

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