And we are rolling part 10 now, as part 9 has 220+ replies

Here the link to part 9 again: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 9 (by SpaceshipDC10 Mar 26 2015 in Civil Aviation)

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[Edited 2015-03-26 11:07:06]

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 219): This is the second confirmed pilot suicide--the other was Egypt Air 767 a few years back. It is strongly suggested that the Indonesian 737 was suicide as well but was never proven. Then there is MH370, still unsolved.

Do not forget TM470, AFAIK that has also been (preliminary) ruled a pilot suicide.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 138):
>

No question what so ever LH will face a class action suit for negligence. However you may think about it, the bottom line is they hired and retained a probable murderer. Though they'll argue there's no way they could have prevented this, the fact remains they hired him and it resulted in the death of 149 innocent people who paid to fly on their aircraft safely.

I'm afraid LH insurance is going to be paying out quite a lot of money here, though I'm assuming there are caps in Europe, I wonder if the family of the 3 Americans will sue in the US where there are no caps?

In any event, this is a tragedy of the grandest proportion. May their souls R.I.P.

Apparently the copilot removed his facebook page 2 days prior. This is a red flag to me. Perhaps he had a relationship problem?

Some have said his behavior went from normal to weird as the flight progressed. Hypoxia? I doubt it. Perhaps a drug he took like a pill or pills? I am sure they will be looking into drugs in his system. He would have to be out of his mind to do this. It might explain his lack of response to the knocking, being ripped out of his mind, but coherent enough to keep the door locked until impact.

Suicide can be sudden. My cousin in law just pulled out a pistol at a stoplight, and blew his brains out as his girlfriend was driving! Absolutely no warning! We had no idea at all. We knew he had depression at times, but we never once considered he would take his life. Had we suspected he would do something like this, we would have done everything we could possibly do to help him. This shows how broken our mental health system is around the world.  

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 3): Apparently the copilot removed his facebook page 2 days prior. This is a red flag to me. Perhaps he had a relationship problem?

Are Facebook pages retrievable? In a case like this, I suspect law enforcement could force Facebook to provide it, assuming any vestige remains.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 4): Quoting F9Animal (Reply 3): Apparently the copilot removed his facebook page 2 days prior. This is a red flag to me. Perhaps he had a relationship problem? Are Facebook pages retrievable? In a case like this, I suspect law enforcement could force Facebook to provide it, assuming any vestige remains.

Searches (perquisitions) are under way in Germany
source: the French Judiciary

Quoting holzmann (Reply 81):
FYI to American readers...it's not so uncommon for a Uni Student to live at home...BUT a paid professional? And why live at home if you have a residence?




I thought it was common for young regional/LCC US pilots to be hugely in debt, paid very little, and share a flat with others, or have a very small bachelor pad ? Could be the same here.

Easy jet just announced from tomorrow there always be 2 people in cockpit

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 4): Are Facebook pages retrievable? In a case like this, I suspect law enforcement could force Facebook to provide it, assuming any vestige remains.

Usually the problem with Facebook is when you want things to be deleted, not the opposite.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Maroc_Flight_630


There was a claim also in 1994 of an ATR 42 of AT crashed that was blamed on pilot suicide with a motif of "LOVE" marital issues, which unions debated as a scape goat.
You never know how investigation end up in those parts of the world

I still don't want to believe that this was a murder-suicide, but it's becoming more and more apparent that it was.  
Now all that comes to mind is why?

Quoting capri (Reply 7):

Norwegian has also announced that. From now on two people always in cockpit will probably become the new standard in European aviation industry... Apparently Finnair had that rule in place already.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 4): Quoting F9Animal (Reply 3): Apparently the copilot removed his facebook page 2 days prior. This is a red flag to me. Perhaps he had a relationship problem? Are Facebook pages retrievable? In a case like this, I suspect law enforcement could force Facebook to provide it, assuming any vestige remains.

Well many people close their account quite regularly, as I often do. So in its own right its not significant, however when we are talking about the Facebook account of the FO who is now deemed to have committed an atrocity, well then it does seem ver significant indeed. Pieces are starting to really fall in to place now to build a very sad, tragic picture.

Summary of past 9 threads

4U9525 departed BCN at 10.01 heading to DUS
Reached cruise at FL380 at 10.45
Left cruise at 10.46
Decent for 8 minutes, ATC lost signal at 10.53 at 6000ft
Crashed into the valley of white on one side of the mountain of the Three Bishoprics. Rough terrain up to 3000m high
Weather was good
A320 D-AIPX ex LH cn 147, manufactured November 1990, delivered 29/11/90, with 4U since January 2014
58,300 flight hours, 46,700 cycles
Last A Check Monday 23rd March 2014
Last C Check in summer 2013
Captain with LH & 4U for 10 years, 6000 flight hours on A320
144 passengers and 6 crew on board
Known nationalities include
Germany 72
Spain 35
Australia 2
Argentina 2
Iran 2
Venezuela 2
US 2
UK 1
Netherlands 1
Columbia 1
Mexico 1
Japan 1
Israel 1
Denmark 1
Belgium 1
Other nationalities to be confirmed 25
CVR found, damaged but readable
BEA leading investigation, assisted by BFU and Spanish equivalent
Technical advisors from Airbus, Germanwings & Lufthansa assisting
Reports FDR found (though nothing confirmed), severely damaged with memory chip dislodged and missing
NYT Report – one of the pilots outside of cockpit, co-pilot alone in cockpit while pilot went to the toilet
First 20 minutes on CVR reveal both pilots exchanging in a normal way
Captain then prepares briefing for landing in DUS. Co-pilot answers seem to be brief
Captain then ask co-pilot to take command of aircraft, sound of a seat moved backwards then a noise of a door being locked
Co-pilot alone in cockpit, manipulates switches of the flight monitoring system to activate decent
Co-pilot did not answer when pilot wanted to enter cockpit, co-pilot refused to open door
Breathing heard inside cockpit until crash
ATC requested pilots to declare 7700 emergency but no answer, no mayday or emergency called
ATC requests other aircraft to do radio relay to get in contact with Germanwings
Alarms were triggered to alert proximity to the ground, loud knocks are heard as to violently break down the cockpit door
Alarms which are pullups to straighten back the aircraft trigger just before final impact, probable sound of first impact on an embankment
Prosecutor concludes in his statement that the above actions as a ”will to destroy the aircraft”
Victim Identification starts today, 26 march 2015
Current investigation makes it likely that co-pilot crash the plane deliberately, more details on co-pilot’s background to be provided later
Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, 28 from Germany, Worked with Germanwings since September 2013, not thought to have a terrorist background


BEA comments/findings so far

Wednesday Press Conference
Priority will be given to finding recorders and finding main components of aircraft, then certain choices will be made to recuperate and analyze certain parts of the plane made difficult by aircraft parts scattered all over
The aircraft has followed the planned route; it was cruising at 38000ft. Last message to ATC was around 1030am. The message was routine and was allowed to continue as normal.
About one minute later aircraft started a decent until the last radar position, the impact at the impact site about 10 minutes later.
Last altitude recorder by radar was 6000 feet.
Cannot tell why aircraft descended and why contact was lost
Flight Recorder found (CVR) found Tuesday was received by us at 945am Wednesday
The important part containing data is in our hands
The work of reading this has begun immediately and some difficulty has been met but we have succeeded extracting an audio file than can be used
It’s too early to draw to conclusions on what happened
We need to work on the file to decipher all the details in the file
Have audio for whole length of the flight, need to work on the information in conjunction with the FDR (once recovered) to refine the comprehension of the flight so they can transcribe the data, will communicate once they have more information
Could take several weeks or months
Have not found the second flight recorder (FDR)
Cannot confirm that no element if the second flight recorder were found
Have no knowledge of any flight recorder that has been totally destroyed in whole aviation history
Crash site Not too big so shouldn’t have too much finding FDR and being able to fully analyze flight data
Will scour whole area and do everything necessary to find second flight recorder (FDR)
3000ft per minute descent (constant) radar data
Will close no door on cause of crash
BEA says the aviation world has had a lot of mishaps so the context is difficult but the work will be done and we will take all the time necessary aside from all the emotional feed coming from the crash
The radar trajectory goes to some hundred meters of the crash point; the aircraft flew to the end
debris and distribution of debris does not suggest there was an explosion on board the aircraft
Debris is small and shows an impact on a very hard surface at very high speed
Will look at all weather data at departure, during flight and at crash point to see if this can be a factor for the crash but nothing shows any weather problems
Will look if the accident is a result of a technical problem or intentional action, have no information on this yet so cannot tell for the time being
Techies from the airline and Airbus will participate in the inquest
Some BEA people are onsite, they are not there to inspect precisely certain debris but to find the missing recorder and examine certain debris they have found, with some that may be repatriated to a lab
Will start transcribing the first recorder (CVR) asap before they find the second recorder (FDR)
Hope to find second recorder (FDR) soon
Too early to tell about engines – not one engine failure or 2 engine failure
Will look into professional backgrounds of pilots but their names will be not be made public

Does anybody know if the position of the door lock switch in the cockpit is recorded in the FDR? If it is, I'm not sure that the exact details will ever be made public, but investigators or airline regulators are probably very interested in how the switch was used in this flight.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11): two people always in cockpit will probably become the new standard in European aviation industry

It should have been since yesterday. Not so much because of events like this, but due to actual medical/physical incapacitation of the remaining pilot.

Quoting flyzapper (Reply 14): Does anybody know if the position of the door lock switch in the cockpit is recorded in the FDR? If it is, I'm not sure that the exact details will ever be made public, but investigators or airline regulators are probably very interested in how the switch was used in this flight.

The FDR hasn't been found yet so its not possible to say at this stage

It appears as a result of the event that EasyJet has now stated that if a crew member leaves the cockpit from now on they will be replaced by a cabin crew member.

Question: would the calls from ATC be recorded in the CVR?
I haven't had time to read all posts but I have not seen anything regarding them in the audio file.
Would that be in any way an indicator of intention if the co-pilot did not answer or he somehow interrupted those calls?

Quoting 757gb (Reply 18):

If the cvr was functioning correctly, then yes, it should have recorded an audio track for the selected radio frequencies.

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 17): It appears as a result of the event that EasyJet has now stated that if a crew member leaves the cockpit from now on they will be replaced by a cabin crew member.

Same change just announced at DY.

In hindsight seems like a no brainer to have 2 crew members always on the flight deck but is there a downside? I mean LH is nothing but professional so why would they have not done this sooner?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 3): This shows how broken our mental health system is around the world.

Thing is, there is NO way to tell what someone is truly thinking or will do. That will always be a "wild card" in dealing with human beings.

It should be fairly straightforward to develop an "override" option the the locked cockpit door:
Develop a process of multiple codes from multiple people on board or an option to transmit an unlock from the ground upon a confirmed legitimate request to do so.

I am thinking for on board: add another keypad at the rear of the cabin, two or three codes are then required to be entered by crew in a certain time interval. One of those crew could be a cockpit crew member (to eliminate the one person in the cockpit problem).

The other could be the ability of ground based personnel to transmit a code which would deactivate the "lockout". The trigger could either be some process utilizing a request from the aircraft (say a call with appropriate validations from the cabin). Or simply ground personnel see a situation like we see here and they send the "release" signal as that is the only option and certainly will not add to a bad situation.

Though with all this said, I do think the simple option of an FA in the cockpit when one pilot leaves is perfectly adequate for these types of situations. Suicide is a lonely thing, not something one does with someone else there with them and close.

A very sad situation. My condolences (again - a terrible and sad situation just became shockingly even more so) to all involved.

Tugg

Quoting qf789 (Reply 16): The FDR hasn't been found yet so its not possible to say at this stage

I'm also wondering in general if FDRs usually record the position of the door lock switch. It would be helpful in this case, but I'm also just curious if anybody with technical expertise knows.

United States commercial aviation once again has led the way on cockpit safety. US carriers require a cabin crew member to enter and remain in cockpit when one of the cockpit crew leaves. Why other carriers have not adopted this including LH speaks to a mentality that "that can't happen here" or "American overreaction". Lufthansa the parent of German Wings speaks of safety first. So why not rise to the level of what carriers in the US have adopted?

Easy Jet, Norwegian, Air Canada are now adopting requirement of additional crew member to enter flight deck. Bravo to them for reacting so quickly.

Quoting capri (Reply 7): Easy jet just announced from tomorrow there always be 2 people in cockpit

Air Canada has also implemented a two crew in the cockpit policy effective immediately.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...w-in-the-cockpit-at-all-times.html

Paid my $25 to offer this comment; A truly sad and heartbreaking (and simultaneously fascinating) thread. I've read every comment across all 10 threads.

Obviously there is a fundamental trust issue at hand. You give the Pilots complete trust as they're charged with operating the aircraft in a safe manner from departure to arrival. There can be no foolproof mechanism to only allow this in "good" situations, but not in bad.

That said, if someone in the cockpit is operating the "lock" mechanism to deny access to an external person, could that not automatically send out a 7700 or similar alert? When would the lock-out ever not be some form of emergency?

Certainly, you can go down the path of then preemptively disabling systems, but this goes back to the fundamental trust problem.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 18): Question: would the calls from ATC be recorded in the CVR? I haven't had time to read all posts but I have not seen anything regarding them in the audio file.

Refer to post 13 above yours as well as in the previous thread. It answers most of these questions.

-Dave

i've never understood the purpose of the locked cockpit door.

it was brought to us by 9/11, but if 9/11 taught us anything, it's that the days of old-fashioned hijackings are over. negotiations are not necessarily the purpose of the terrorists. therefore, in a hijacking situation, it's all able bodied men to the front of the cabin. if you're going to die, you might as well die fighting. keeping the door open actually helps in that situation, as passengers and crew could work together to incapacitate terrorists. the locked door -- if they (or a suicidal captain) -- are smart enough to employ, only makes fighting back that much harder.

it looks to me that this is a classic case of unintended consequences... in an effort to make airlines safer, lockable doors are now responsible for 150 deaths. and you could speculate that helios might have had a better chance with an unlocked door too.

Given that there are now numerous airlines worldwide implementing immediate changes in case a pilot leaves the cockpit, i suspect LH and its subsidiaries will follow very soon.

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 29): it was brought to us by 9/11, but if 9/11 taught us anything, it's that the days of old-fashioned hijackings are over. negotiations are not necessarily the purpose of the terrorists. therefore, in a hijacking situation, it's all able bodied men to the front of the cabin. if you're going to die, you might as well die fighting. keeping the door open actually helps in that situation, as passengers and crew could work together to incapacitate terrorists. the locked door -- if they (or a suicidal captain) -- are smart enough to employ, only makes fighting back that much harder.

I'm inclined to agree. I think the door should be hardened such that an attacker doesn't simply run in and jam on the control stick, but perhaps not completely and utterly impassible.

I know I would certainly be attacking anyone on a plane that I see attempting to do harm to others; it's par for the course in a world where an assailant may be attempting to weaponize the aircraft.

Quoting kenperkins (Reply 27): That said, if someone in the cockpit is operating the "lock" mechanism to deny access to an external person, could that not automatically send out a 7700 or similar alert?

That is a good idea but would not change much in the plane.
Unless someone can remotely open the cockpit door.
(or remote fly the plane.)

Quoting Tugger (Reply 23): Develop a process of multiple codes from multiple people on board

There are surely many technical implementations that come to mind but we have to keep in mind that they would have to be used in exceptional circumstances that are chaotic enough by itself. I'd say another person mandated in the cockpit is the better consequence.

Quoting exfss (Reply 32): That is a good idea but would not change much in the plane. Unless someone can remotely open the cockpit door. (or remote fly the plane.)

Right. It gets back to the fundamental trust we give the pilots. And even a remote unlock or remote fly option could likely be bypassed by disabling breakers on those systems.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 33): Quoting Tugger (Reply 23): Develop a process of multiple codes from multiple people on board There are surely many technical implementations that come to mind but we have to keep in mind that they would have to be used in exceptional circumstances that are chaotic enough by itself. I'd say another person mandated in the cockpit is the better consequence.

Yes, I do fully agree.

Was just putting it out there that such a process can developed.

tugg

What a terrible tragedy.

Unthinkable and unreal a pilot cannot access the cockpit in his own plane, and the other pilot can seal himself off. It seems overkill. Please no pun intended. I can't even believe it. Just how many layers of security are needed for the cockpit door?

My father was a pilot, and so was his father. My mother is a pilot. Pilots are humans too, and can conceal their problems.

I suppose I am the only one here that remembers the pilot that went crazy, wasn't it on B6 to LAS from JFK, and diverted to Amarillo. Remember pilots can have issues. They are humans like the rest of us.

I remember Egypt Air crash long ago. The other pilot struggled with copilot Al-Batuti to bring the plane under control again. Two people is not necessarily a panacea.

More psychological screening, I agree with one who said "Give me a break." Not everything will show up. I believe LH when they say they have rigorous testing for pilots fitness.

I am so glad no one here seems to still be holding out that this was accidental.

[Edited 2015-03-26 11:57:04]

Quoting 787 (Reply 25): United States commercial aviation once again has led the way on cockpit safety. US carriers require a cabin crew member to enter and remain in cockpit when one of the cockpit crew leaves. Why other carriers have not adopted this including LH speaks to a mentality that "that can't happen here" or "American overreaction". Lufthansa the parent of German Wings speaks of safety first. So why not rise to the level of what carriers in the US have adopted? Easy Jet, Norwegian, Air Canada are now adopting requirement of additional crew member to enter flight deck. Bravo to them for reacting so quickly.

Add Air Transat to that list

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germanw...-after-crash-revelations-1.3010494

While it is good to see airlines acting swiftly on this I do find it disturbing that this should of been their procedure a long time ago

I don't understand why 2 people in the cockpit isn't mandatory in Europe, but what if next time the f/a smacks the remaining pilot unconcious/dead and then proceeds to crashing themselves?
I don't think there is a remedy for these kind of things.

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 19): Quoting 757gb (Reply 18): If the cvr was functioning correctly, then yes, it should have recorded an audio track for the selected radio frequencies.

Thank you.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 28): Quoting 757gb (Reply 18): Question: would the calls from ATC be recorded in the CVR? I haven't had time to read all posts but I have not seen anything regarding them in the audio file. Refer to post 13 above yours as well as in the previous thread. It answers most of these questions. -Dave

Thank you, I did look through post 13 and it mentions the ATC calls, but it is not clear if it's mentioned as part of what was found in the CVR, or as infomration known from other sources (which it was as I understand it). I also did read through most of the previous thread, will try again.

Quoting mpsrent (Reply 26): Quoting capri (Reply 7):Easy jet just announced from tomorrow there always be 2 people in cockpit Air Canada has also implemented a two crew in the cockpit policy effective immediately.

It is incredible that such a regulated and safety/security conscious industry reacts with such knee-jerk responses to tragic events. With all the suggestions and hypotheses just here on a.net in a few days about how a cockpit door should be operated or modified, it has to be considered: Are there not think tanks in airline security, or federal regulators who would consider scenarios such as having created a fortress for a lone homicidal pilot, and have safeguards in place to deal with it? Or the person in the meeting who asked "What if?" was ignored, and is now shaking their head in disbelief.





LD4

Quoting idlewildchild (Reply 2): I'm afraid LH insurance is going to be paying out quite a lot of money here, though I'm assuming there are caps in Europe, I wonder if the family of the 3 Americans will sue in the US where there are no caps?

International flight, Montreal convention applies. There are a lot of caps on damages. No punitive damages allowed, I want to say no emotional damages as well. Victims families will get money, but it won't be huge sums to everyone.

Quoting 787 (Reply 25): Air Canada are now adopting requirement of additional crew member to enter flight deck.

Quoting mpsrent (Reply 26): Air Canada has also implemented a two crew in the cockpit policy effective immediately

I am pretty surprised AC did not do this already. I always saw this procedure as a no brainer, an obvious safety measure. I always assumed all major airlines did this. Surprised I was wrong.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 36): I suppose I am the only one here that remembers the pilot that went crazy, wasn't it on B6 to LAS from JFK, and diverted to Amarillo. Remember pilots can have issues. They are humans like the rest of us.

Lets remember a locked door kept him out of the cockpit too.

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 38): but what if next time the f/a smacks the remaining pilot unconcious/dead and then proceeds to crashing themselves?

Not too great of a risk I'd say given that they sit in the jumpseat form time to time anyway and also regularly serve the pilots food or drinks, especially on longhaul flights.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 33): There are surely many technical implementations that come to mind but we have to keep in mind that they would have to be used in exceptional circumstances that are chaotic enough by itself. I'd say another person mandated in the cockpit is the better consequence.

Better but not enough. Because if a fight brakes out in the cockpit others need to able to help. Imho we need a solution the requires to persons to engage the full lock down. This could be a switch in the cabin + one in the cockpit and 2 widely separated switches (finger print scanners) in the cockpit that must be operated at the same time and in a way that you can not engage one and then be done by engaging the second.

If those switches are not engaged the door should open when a valid access code is entered.

With the current system you could engage the lock and than you have 5-20 minutes to knock out the other person before the door opens if the switch is not activated again.

Quoting capri (Reply 7): Easy jet just announced from tomorrow there always be 2 people in cockpit

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11): Norwegian has also announced that.

Maybe an improvement, but not a solution. In essence this means that the airlines are now saying that the risk of FA being able to overpower a CA/FO and crash the plane is less than the risk of a sole CA/FO being suicidal. Some pretty poor decisions have come from comparing tiny numbers...

It still makes me wonder how the FAs are being trained. Sure they can go into the cockpit and hope their presence deters a suicidal pilot, but there's no guarantee it will. What do they do if they feel the plane diving - presume the pilot is trying to kill everyone or presume the pilot is just performing their duty?

As before, there's no single answer that's going to be perfect. Up to this point the safest presumption had been that the pilot is trustworthy. Adding a FA to the cockpit extends some degree of trust to them that hadn't been there before, and presumably comes with some burden to train the FAs on what they should or should not do when alone in the cockpit with a CA/FO. Yes, the US has been doing this for a while. It'd be interesting to see what the FA training for this consists of.

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 38):

This lead me to think what I read around a month ago that Lockeed/ Honeywell are developing something like " Ground captain" so there will be only a single pilot

Edit, i found a link http://aviationweek.com/technology/n...s-single-pilot-operations-concepts

Will this be a good idea to develop such technology, and with event like this, these people will have a case to push for it?

[Edited 2015-03-26 12:12:43]

I personally think it is time to consider that the average FA is as trustworthy as the average pilot.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 39): Thank you, I did look through post 13 and it mentions the ATC calls, but it is not clear if it's mentioned as part of what was found in the CVR, or as infomration known from other sources (which it was as I understand it). I also did read through most of the previous thread, will try again.

No problem. I might have inferred what it said in the post as being clear, but I read in another post (maybe by Madame Concorde?) a fuller version that made it clear that they could hear everything in the cockpit off of the CVR, including the ATC alls to the aircraft.

I mainly just referred you to the thread to keep from re-explaining it. These threads move so fast that it's almost impossible to stay on top of it all.

-Dave

[email protected] if you do, [email protected] if you don't...

Remember a few years back everyone was heralding the locked door after the B6 pilot had a breakdown of sorts?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0326/689994-cockpit-rules/

Apparently EI and FR have had a two-people-in-cockpit policy since sealed cockpit policy was introduced.