Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

PanHAM · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:16 pm

Not sure if it has been posted here already, I just did in the other thread but the German Airlines LH Group, Air Berlin., Condor and TUI Fly agreed now to the 2 Person Cockpit rule and they will make arrangemeents with the LBA as quick as can be done to get the legal aspects lined up.
Good and quick move.

cougar15 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 82):
I have seen no indication of mental illness on the part of the FO.

Awkward Situation due to german privacy laws, but it seems the SO took 6 months off during his training due to a ´ mental burnout'. This I think is now pretty much confirmed, at least by the Mainstream - semi serious- press over here in Germany!
BUT; he was re-asessed before recommencing his training & found fit. apparently this is mandotory as per Spohr (CEO LH Group). He was also a flightattendant with 4U for years .......

This Story is tragic, is so tragic for the victims & their relatives. Now don´t take this the wrong way, but getting back to the Av Geek side if things, it is tragically sad and ironic that it was D-AIPX... locally known here at Cologne (4U Homebase) as the absolute " Hangarqueen" in the fleet.....

[Edited 2015-03-26 13:51:21]

JimIA · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):
My daughter committed suicide in her late teens as a result of a mental illness in a way that could have, but fortunately didn't, kill others at the same time. Do you think she should rot in hell?

I understand your perspective, as my own daughter attempted (but failed) the same. I haven't slept well since.

Do try to give the poster a break. It may just be too soon to expect people to put aside their shock and anger over how someone was so keen on relieving their own misery that they took 150 innocent lives in the process.

When I read the original post, I thought "YEAH!!!", then I read your post and thought "...no".

Jim

[Edited 2015-03-26 13:22:43]

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 98):
The general consensus right now is that if the copilot had knocked out, he wouldn't have been able to lock the pilot out of the cockpit.

If he locks the door, it stays locked without any further input, until it times out, which is from 5 to 20 minutes.

The lock position is momentary. You tap it, and the door is locked, and the lock timer starts. no one can enter until it times out.

So he could certainly lock the door, set the AP, and then take poison.

There would be no interrupting this.

osiris30 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 98):
The general consensus right now is that if the copilot had knocked out, he wouldn't have been able to lock the pilot out of the cockpit.

The problem is, there is no proof the door was working... No proof he locked anyone out and it wasn't a door malfunction... at least no proof that's been made public so him being passed out is ENTIRELY possible. Again not likely, but possible.

Frankly I have too many questions right now to vilify the guy just yet. The investigators said they heard him breathing on the CVR... How? I've listened to a lot of CVR tape over the years (well audio files thereof) and have never heard NORMAL breathing. If his breathing was labored maybe he was having a problem. Maybe the door DID malfunction.

Or (and perhaps more likely) there's more to the story than we are being told in terms of hard evidence the co-pilot did things that we haven't been made aware of yet.. but until that time I'm going to wait and see. You have an investigator who has come to a conclusion based on what is mostly circumstantial evidence:

1) Pilot sets -3000fpm . Okay. But there could have been a reason for that if he thought something was amiss (not likely but plausible)
2) Captain can't get back in and is banging on the door
3) Co-pilot doesn't repond
4) Door doesn't open
5) Co-pilot was heard breathing (supposedly) on the CVR

That's it for facts that we've been told so far. The reasons for 1-4 are all open to have different reasons for having happened. On balance it looks like the unthinkable has happened. I agree that probably it could be intentional action. But I also couldn't prove it in a court of law.

Hopefully additional data will be discovered/released to help clear this up, because there are an awful lot of (what seems like, based on what's been said) assumptions in what the French prosecutor said.

Kaiarahi · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 83):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):

My daughter committed suicide in her late teens as a result of a mental illness in a way that could have, but fortunately didn't, kill others at the same time. Do you think she should rot in hell?

Straw man, and a bad one.

I have seen no indication of mental illness on the part of the FO.

It certainly didn't feel like a straw man to me or my family.

Having lived with the agony of what could we have done differently (we were not aware of the illness, although a small number of her friends had seen things that, in hindsight, were indications of destabilization), the research is clear that, with the exception of people with terminal illnesses who make a reasoned decision to end their suffering, suicide is almost always a consequence of destabilization that often goes unrecognized even by those very close to the person.

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 106):
It certainly didn't feel like a straw man to me or my family.

Straw man argument...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Rara · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 75):
His breathing must have been very deep and rapid for the microphones to pick it up. He was possibly hyperventilating? Even if he was aware of what he was doing, his body must have gone into an adrenalin rush... which would explain the heavy breathing.

French attorney said the the breathing was quite normal. No hyperventilating or heavy breathing.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 102):
If he locks the door, it stays locked without any further input, until it times out, which is from 5 to 20 minutes.

5 minutes in the case of Germanwings.

vnangia · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 106):

My sincere condolences to you and your family on the loss of your daughter. There are no words to express the grief and agony and I can only hope that time has eased the pain.

I'm not MadameConcorde but I can understand the need to vent. I do not think she meant to belittle the suicide, but rather the loss of so many other lives. As Carsten Spohr said eloquently, "If a person kills himself and also 149 other people, another word should be used -- not suicide" - and that other word, whatever it is, describes the action that I and I suspect many others are cursing.

[Edited 2015-03-26 13:36:43]

mika · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 40):
It is incredible that such a regulated and safety/security conscious industry reacts with such knee-jerk responses to tragic events.

This is, if not entirely, at least partially for marketing reasons. The competitor creates a competitive advantage, you follow.

This will spread like wildfire among all the major European operators i have no doubt.

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 108):
5 minutes in the case of Germanwings.

I have read that the time limit is programmable / adjustable, from 5 to 20 minutes.

CF-CPI · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting MigPilot (Reply 96):
But it just crossed my mind as I was thinking about why there was zero response from the cockpit while normal breathing was heard on the CVR.

I'm not clear on how long the normal breathing went on. If normal breathing was heard right until the very end, it suggests that he did not take a 'suicide pill' .

osiris30 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 108):
French attorney said the the breathing was quite normal. No hyperventilating or heavy breathing.

This is the thing I have an issue with. Normal breathing is almost inaudible in a silent room, let alone the cockpit of an aircraft going 400kts. Doesn't make sense to me.

A332DTW · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 108):
French attorney said the the breathing was quite normal. No hyperventilating or heavy breathing.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 82):
I am not sure of this, but maybe mic in the O2 mask is also continuously recorded on CVR, not just with PTT active

That's right. I forgot about the different microphones used. The breathing was probably picked up by the mic on the headset.

747megatop · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 105):
there is no proof the door was working... No proof he locked anyone out and it wasn't a door malfunctio

Time to start implementing video feed into the CVR from the cockpit. That would give proof beyond doubt in such incidents. There are people who still question the findings on EgyptAir 990 & SilkAir 185. If and when we find MH 370 (again a remote possibiility of finding the aircraft) we might find ourselves again in a situation without conclusive proof of what really happened on the flight deck because of the lack of video.

MigPilot · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 112):
I'm not clear on how long the normal breathing went on. If normal breathing was heard right until the very end, it suggests that he did not take a 'suicide pill' .

Knockout drops don’t kill you. They just make a person fall asleep more or less instantly.

tp1040 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 pm

Kaiarahi

Thoughts and prayers for you and your family. There are many forms of mental illnesses. Some are more readily apparent than others. You have dealt with it more than anyone should have to.

If this happened as speculated, it was more than just a mental illness, it was an act of evil and THAT will be sorted out by whatever future awaits all of us as we depart this mortal coil.

Thoughts and prayers for the all of the families than had their lives changed for ever.

Lizzie · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 97):
His last act may be due to mental illness, and it may not.

He was mentally ill virtually by definition. While not all suicides are mentally ill (for some it is a rational decision, for instance in the case of terminal illness, and for others there is a nominal ideological rationale) the suicide of a young fit person, in a manner that kills many others, for no even apparent political or ideological end, means that he meets criteria for mental illness.

Whether it is an illness that could have been detected beforehand is another question.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 97):
There isn't any sign of mental illness so far.

Yes, I get that. My point was that that's a pretty irrelevant comment this early in the investigation. You're statement is pretty factual but doesn't really mean anything at this stage, IMHO.

-Dave

namezero111111 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 42):
Not too great of a risk I'd say given that they sit in the jumpseat form time to time anyway and also regularly serve the pilots food or drinks, especially on longhaul flights.

Of course. My point was that there is no way to make something entirely foolproof. If someone has an ulterior motive, they will succeed. Crew or not.

Heck, you could probably build a large enough makeshift hydrogen bomb that would cause serious damage in the right place with everything you can take onboard. Regular water, a few laptop batteries and some headphones/USB/cables/anything would suffice... Heck, in business class they even have 110V outlets. No need for batteries.

My point being again if someone wanted to build a hydrogen bomb McGyver style onboard they probably could do so.

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 117):
He was mentally ill virtually by definition.

Mass murder doesn't automatically indicate mental illness, does it?

ikramerica · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):

It's very sad what happened to your daughter. I know how mental illness can impact a family, as can untimely death as a result. It happened to my Uncle, who was in and out of facilities due to being a danger, and was killed in a facility by another ill person.

That said, your personal tragedy doesn't mean the rest of the world must walk on eggshells nor does it mean that you can not have perspective on this incident and detach it from your life.

Your daughter didn't crash this plane. So it IS somewhat of a strawman argument, or at least a logical fallacy. "Because X happened to ME, YOU can't judge Y that happened to people I don't know, in a situation not very similar." In this case, there was no "could have." The choice, if true, was made TO MURDER 150 PEOPLE. Depression and mental illness are not excuses for devaluing the lives of others this way.

Your personal loss doesn't mitigate the potential damage your daughter could have caused. For those who believe in hell, they might very well have a lack of sympathy. I don't believe in it myself. I sympathize with you.

And because of that, if you didn't want your personal tragedy scrutinized, you should not have brought it up. I would recommend you ask for your post to be deleted and all the responses will go away too.

vnangia · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 119):
hydrogen bomb

No, you cannot. You can do the research if you'd like, but you cannot build a nuclear weapon from a laptop battery. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life and I say that having spent time reading YouTube comments.

CF-CPI · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Quoting MigPilot (Reply 115):
Knockout drops don’t kill you. They just make a person fall asleep more or less instantly.

That makes sense, but could a forensic scientist detect audible difference in the awake vs 'sleep' state breathing pattern? If so, that could be valuable.

tockeyhockey · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 38):

I don't understand why 2 people in the cockpit isn't mandatory in Europe, but what if next time the f/a smacks the remaining pilot unconcious/dead and then proceeds to crashing themselves?
I don't think there is a remedy for these kind of things.

the remedy is self-flying planes. or at least planes that can be taken over by ground control if needed.

but that opens up a whole new set of security issues.

Lizzie · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 120):
Mass murder doesn't automatically indicate mental illness, does it?

No, and if you re-read my post you will see I didn't say so.

capri · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:57 pm

I have just seen a report mentioning he had only 100 hrs on A320, would someone with so low in hrs and total of 600 to be left alone as PIC? We don't even know why the captain stepped out, he may not have the need to go to restrooms, maybe just to get something or check something out and was immediately locked out, hence the sudden descent after the cruise level.

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting vnangia (Reply 122):
No, you cannot. You can do the research if you'd like, but you cannot build a nuclear weapon from a laptop battery. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life and I say that having spent time reading YouTube comments.

He meant just explosive hydrogen, not a nuclear bomb.

AF682 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):
My daughter committed suicide in her late teens as a result of a mental illness in a way that could have, but fortunately didn't, kill others at the same time. Do you think she should rot in hell?

First of all I am truly sorry for your unthinkable loss. Losing a child is impossible to imagine regardless of the illness or circumstances.

Hopefully further investigation will shed light into what led to the FO's action and if he was in full control of his actions (stroke etc...)

RIP to the victims and may time heal and bring closure to the relatives and friends of ALL on board this flight.

MigPilot · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 123):
That makes sense, but could a forensic scientist detect audible difference in the awake vs 'sleep' state breathing pattern? If so, that could be valuable.

I don’t know. But if this is what happened he must have used quite a high doses for quick effect – which should be detectable by forensic medicine.

Lizzie · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 121):
Depression and mental illness are not excuses for devaluing the lives of others this way.

That was not at all Kaiarahi's point. His point, surely, was that mental illness causes people to kill themselves without thought for its impact on others. Nobody, surely, thinks that mental illness is an "excuse" for such things, but it is most certainly a reason.

SCQ83 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:06 pm

So what would have happened if the airline was Emirates and the pilot was Mohamed instead of Andreas? Just saying.

Finn350 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting MigPilot (Reply 129):
I don’t know. But if this is what happened he must have used quite a high doses for quick effect – which should be detectable by forensic medicine.

If one hits a granite mountain wall at 700 km/h I doubt there is anything left to examine for forensic medicine.

flymia · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 51):
Not true. You are confusing the old liability limits of the Warsaw Convention with the Montreal Convention, which has removed liability limits for death to passengers.

Right. But there are still liability limits, I don't have time to look at the actual convention right now but I believe whether it is death or injury the limit of $175,000.00 can be exceeded if there is proof of negligence by the airline. I am sure LH will settle with the families, or at least do its best to do that. The last thing they want is to go to court. Of course there is still plenty of time for the families to worry about this. But I am sure LH has its attorneys working on it already.

mikelive · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 124):
the remedy is self-flying planes. or at least planes that can be taken over by ground control if needed.

but that opens up a whole new set of security issues.

I doubt this will ever happen. To a point, I guess we're halfway there with autopilot and auto-lands at capable airfields, but where do you station these centers who would control the planes? My guess is that a ground control center in France is not going to be able to control a flight on the opposite side of the world. Even if this is done via satellite, the delay from transmission to reception and execution could be as long as 10 seconds (or more) if you take into account the time that it takes for a signal to bounce from Point A to Point B.

Of course, the possibility of a security breach is huge, and as recent news events have shown, absolutely no system is completely fail-safe (financial and health care institutions for example). Someone mentioned this in an earlier thread about the possibility of a remote hacker being able to gain control of an aircraft. While that is impossible now, if remote control of commercial aircraft is enabled at some point, you can rest assured that the hacking community will do everything in their power to look to exploit any security holes that they find.

capri · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:19 pm

Is A320 CVR erasable? If he wanted to commit suicide why he didn't erase it to make it more complicated and not leave a trace?

[Edited 2015-03-26 14:19:48]

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:21 pm

Quote:
Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the "open descent" autopilot setting.
The reason why the selected altitude is 96ft is that least significant bit for altitude setting equals 16 ft, and we suspect that you can’t set autopilot to 0000 altitude, so the minimum would be 100ft down rounded to 96ft in binary representation in BDS40h register.
Any comments or thoughts about this?

Playback: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/fl...u9525/#5d42675

This data has also been handled over to BEA 2 days ago.

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...25-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

heyjoojoo · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:25 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 126):
I have just seen a report mentioning he had only 100 hrs on A320, would someone with so low in hrs and total of 600 to be left alone as PIC? We don't even know why the captain stepped out, he may not have the need to go to restrooms, maybe just to get something or check something out and was immediately locked out, hence the sudden descent after the cruise level.

Maybe he somehow managed to trick the captain into thinking something was going on outside the cockpit, thus making the captain leave the flight deck while the FO did his deed.

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 135):
Is A320 CVR erasable? If he wanted to commit suicide why he didn't erase it to make it more complicated and not leave a trace?

Yes, but not in flight.

Western727 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:31 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 138):
Yes, but not in flight.

Can the circuit breaker not be pulled inflight on the 32X, a la SilkAir?

LTC8K6 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 139):

Can the circuit breaker not be pulled inflight on the 32X, a la SilkAir?

Overhead CB panel. Row E, on the right? Under COM. CVR SPLY

Looks like you would have to get out of your seat.

http://mobile.airlinetechs.com/airbus/panels/49VU.html

tailskid · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 90):
It is not an opinion, just reality. Who would have thought this guy would have done what he did. Who would think that the next guy is going to do what he is going to do. But the next guy is going to plan on taking out whomever comes in the cockpit after the other goes to take a leak. They are not going to be expecting anything and then wham. The door is locked and there is nobody to help.

In the first place the inhibiting effect would be 90% psychological, suicide is a very private affair and just having somebody there would be a heavy deterrent.

Secondly the FA would be standing next to the door and the flight officer would be in his or her seat buckled up. A simple rule would be that when a FA is covering for an absent crew member, the PF under no circumstances is to unbuckle, and if he does the FA is to open the door and signal for help, from passengers if need be.

I suggest that you take one of those tests to evaluate psychological knowledge, I think you'll be surprised at your score.

Thomaas · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:45 pm

The mood in the cabin must have been terrifying if the pilot was trying to knock down the door and the passengers could feel the aircraft going down.

litz · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 110):
I have read that the time limit is programmable / adjustable, from 5 to 20 minutes.

Right, but it's not an option settable by the crew ... it's something that's configured at the manufacturer or airline tech level ...

Western727 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 140):
Overhead CB panel. Row E, on the right? Under COM. CVR SPLY

Fascinating, thank you for sharing. What's also interesting is that the CBs aren't green, which by the legend on the bottom of the image you linked, indicates that a tripped CVR CB will NOT activate an ECAM message. Huh???? Seems to defy common sense. Can you or someone else chime in on that?

In any case, this is telling - why wouldn't he have tripped that? Then again, an irrational person is that: irrational. He apparently flicked the door unlock override switch at least once, on top of commanding the A/P to head towards 100'. So why not pull the CVR CB too, a la SilkAir?

BlueShamu330s · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 112):

This is the thing I have an issue with. Normal breathing is almost inaudible in a silent room, let alone the cockpit of an aircraft going 400kts. Doesn't make sense to me.

Modern headset mikes will pick up breathing very capably in a quiet cockpit like the A320.

I'm not surprised it's on tape.

Rgds

CplKlinger · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 83):
Straw man, and a bad one.

I have seen no indication of mental illness on the part of the FO.

Then why allow Madame Concorde to jump to the conclusion that the FO should rot in hell? If it turns out that the FO stroked out, then should we still make that assumption? Suicidal people are irrational, sometimes bordering on the insane. They may not have a full grasp of what they're doing, or it's implications. Should a person with a serious mental break then be condemned in such a manner?

[Edited 2015-03-26 15:00:08]

DDR · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:58 pm

CNN has the co-pilots picture plastered across their web page along with photos of the family home. So much for the privacy of the poor family.

Western727 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 146):
If it turns out that the FO stroked out,

Hasn't it been determined that the FO flicked the door-code-unlock override switch at least once, preventing the captain from entering using his code? With the protection around that switch, pictured in an earlier thread, a stroke or some other medical event seems highly unlikely.

flytimbo77 · Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:01 pm

This is all dreadfully sad, for everyone involved. And I include the family of Andreas Lubitz, who must be going through hell right now. Not only have they lost him, but they also have to contend with the recent developments. I think it is really important for us all to keep an open mind, and not to judge based on what little we still know. Life often demonstrates that things are not what they may seem, and as Andreas is sadly not here to defend himself, we have to reserve judgement, at least until more specific details are available.

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