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Armodeen
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 184):


^^^ I actually like that compromise. Passengers won't allow hijackings anymore or even something that looks remotely like a hijacking. Having an impervious door may have in fact run its course.

What about a long flight which has a small first class cabin...it's late at night and almost all of them are asleep. Are you still sure they will tackle someone before they get to the cockpit?
 
trex8
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting flylku (Reply 171):
Didn’t we recently have an event in the U.S. where the captain was locked out of the cockpit inadvertently and they were not able to open from the inside either? The FO landed the aircraft solo (big deal BTW). Was an FA in the cockpit when this happened?

Dunno about who else may have been in the cockpit but the door malfunction was due to string!
The source of the jammed door was a piece of string that was found near the door by the maintenance crew, passenger Jonathan Thalacker told ABC News.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/delta-plane...t-locked-cockpit/story?id=28590807

It may be lightning striking twice but a mechanical door issue and FO incapacitated in some way and not making sensible control inputs but very deliberate ones.
My uncle was a retired engineering professor who when in his early 70s and gambling at a casino had a stroke. He stumbled around, managed to use an ATM machine to cause havoc with his bank accounts, made a plane reservation to NYC from LAS by phone!, and only when security thought he was "drunk" enough to be tossed out did they figure out he was ill and call an ambulance. He eventually died from the brain swelling a week later.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:39 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 199):
There are a variety of depressions.

Those are some very insightful observations.
Thank you.
 
CplKlinger
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:39 am

You know what, I'm done. A vile bunch of folks in here.

[Edited 2015-03-26 17:43:45]
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 191):
Captain apparently used the crash axe on the door, and that is what panicked the passengers.

Don't know where he could have found a crash axe, since that is normally stored in the cockpit. Sounds like he might have found something to hammer with, but not the aircraft crash axe.
 
JJJ
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 191):

Captain apparently used the crash axe on the door, and that is what panicked the passengers.

Isn't the crash axe stored in the cockpit?
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:43 am

Zwei-Personen-Regel ab jetzt bei deutschen Fluggesellschaften...

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/germa...rfen-cockpit-regeln-a-1025817.html
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freqflyerNYC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:43 am

I agree with those that say the ability of anyone to lock themselves in a cockpit, and deny access to others (even when an override code is entered) is difficult to understand. I think there should be four changes implemented to current regulations:

1. Two crew members present in cockpit at all times - as evidenced by those airlines making announcements today, this will probably be implemented by all carriers, and countries, in fairly short order.
2. There must be a way (others have discussed possible ways to facilitate this, keeping in mind security concerns) that the cockpit can be accessed, regardless of the actions/intent of the person or persons inside.
3. Cameras should be present in all cockpits - I don't think anyone believes pilot privacy concerns are valid in this day and age.
4. It should be possible for crew outside of the cockpit area to contact ATC, or send a distress signal in the event of a crisis. Many people assume this is already the case, but news reports have indicated it isn't currently possible.

And I do understand that nature calls sometimes, but many European flights are of short duration. Many an hour or less, and a majority no more than several hours. In most instances (not all, I know) I would think the cockpit crew can make it through the entire flight without leaving their work stations. Certainly there should be no need to pop out for a leg stretch, or beverage, on a short flight.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:46 am

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 207):
And I do understand that nature calls sometimes, but many European flights are of short duration. Many an hour or less, and a majority no more than several hours. In most instances (not all, I know) I would think the cockpit crew can make it through the entire flight without leaving their work stations. Certainly there should be no need to pop out for a leg stretch, or beverage, on a short flight.

I don't want my captain squirming in his seat and distracted with a basic bodily function while landing my plane, particularly in less than ideal conditions. They deserve some basic human dignity just like anyone else.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 191):
Captain apparently used the crash axe on the door, and that is what panicked the passengers.

Unless 4U SOPs mandate you take the crash axe with you when you leave the flight deck, doubt there is any truth to this.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:48 am

As one of my friends says in difficult situations, "There will be lawyers"...

Pilot's actions may add to Germanwings' liability in mountain crash: lawyers

Quote:

Justin Green, a partner at the law firm Kreindler & Kreindler in New York, said passengers' families would be justified in asking why Andreas Lubitz, the 28-year-old co-pilot, was allowed to be alone in the cockpit.

Pilots may temporarily leave the cockpit at certain times and in certain circumstances, such as while the aircraft is cruising, according to German aviation law.

Even if the practice was allowed, though, "this has been a known risk," Green said. He noted that some investigators believed that pilots intentionally downed a SilkAir aircraft in 1997 and an EgyptAir aircraft in 1999.

"This idea that one pilot could murder everyone on board and kill himself is something that's happened before and something that everyone knew about," Green said.

Lawyers are already planning how to get into LH's deep pockets...
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:49 am

What about a dozen or so pax, running a meal cart down the aisle into the door? Would this had been enough? Ala UA 93? Ore are the doors too strong now?
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 194):
I say pilot homicide because FoxNews calls muslims "suicide bombers". Anyone else notice the double standards if this guy had been a muslim Arab named Abdullah?

Terrorism by definition is murder that is politically motivated. Mental illness or plain murder does not get classified as terrorism because it isn't meant to strike terror for political gain, but rather the act in and of itself is the ends to mean.

It can be a gray line for sure, but it is an important distinction. Not in say a criminal case but in the reaction to the current state of affairs. We are statistically speaking no more likely to have pilot suicide induced flights after this event and mental illness does not rise or fall based on this or any other crime. However terrorism spurs terrorism (or can reduce terrorism based on reactions) and that is why society as a whole is more concerned with terrorism than murder/suicide.

[Edited 2015-03-26 17:56:42]
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 207):
And I do understand that nature calls sometimes, but many European flights are of short duration. Many an hour or less, and a majority no more than several hours. In most instances (not all, I know) I would think the cockpit crew can make it through the entire flight without leaving their work stations. Certainly there should be no need to pop out for a leg stretch, or beverage, on a short flight.

Umm...

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 208):
I don't want my captain squirming in his seat and distracted with a basic bodily function while landing my plane, particularly in less than ideal conditions. They deserve some basic human dignity just like anyone else.

Ding. Ding. Ding. I do not want my pilot to have anything else on his mind when landing the plane other than landing the plane.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 209):
Unless 4U SOPs mandate you take the crash axe with you when you leave the flight deck, doubt there is any truth to this.

So they have this as a SOP but not a 2nd person needs to be in the cockpit.   

Quoting holzmann (Reply 211):
What about a dozen or so pax, running a meal cart down the aisle into the door? Would this had been enough? Ala UA 93? Ore are the doors too strong now?

I believe they are bullet proof. If it can stop a bullet, I doubt a meal cart will work.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
BryanG
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 207):
3. Cameras should be present in all cockpits - I don't think anyone believes pilot privacy concerns are valid in this day and age.

I suspect the pilots' unions do, so therefore the airlines will probably never be able to install them.
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 210):
As one of my friends says in difficult situations, "There will be lawyers"...

Pilot's actions may add to Germanwings' liability in mountain crash: lawyers

Quote:

Justin Green, a partner at the law firm Kreindler & Kreindler in New York, said passengers' families would be justified in asking why Andreas Lubitz, the 28-year-old co-pilot, was allowed to be alone in the cockpit.

Pilots may temporarily leave the cockpit at certain times and in certain circumstances, such as while the aircraft is cruising, according to German aviation law.

Even if the practice was allowed, though, "this has been a known risk," Green said. He noted that some investigators believed that pilots intentionally downed a SilkAir aircraft in 1997 and an EgyptAir aircraft in 1999.

"This idea that one pilot could murder everyone on board and kill himself is something that's happened before and something that everyone knew about," Green said.

Lawyers are already planning how to get into LH's deep pockets...

Of course ... civilized societies have a justice system. No doubt you'd be seeking legal justice if you had been personally affected.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting jjj (Reply 205):
Isn't the crash axe stored in the cockpit?

I think there is one in the passenger cabin, but it's location is not published?
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting BryanG (Reply 214):
I suspect the pilots' unions do, so therefore the airlines will probably never be able to install them.

The privacy angle is not a valid one. Semi-truck drivers have cameras recording them. Practically every business in the world has cameras to some degree. Even the grocery store has camera everywhere - in part to make sure employees are doing what they are suppose to. Write legislation that states you can't release camera footage at the moment of impact - a luxary semi-truck drivers aren't awarded - and call it a day. Unions don't get to make all the rules.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:58 am

Quoting BryanG (Reply 214):

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 207):
3. Cameras should be present in all cockpits - I don't think anyone believes pilot privacy concerns are valid in this day and age.

I suspect the pilots' unions do, so therefore the airlines will probably never be able to install them.

And furthermore, cameras would have done nothing to prevent this tragedy. If the alleged insane pilot would have felt uncomfortable performing his actions under a watchful eye, he simply would have used a few strips of masking tape to blind any future or present voyeurs
 
pezzy669
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:58 am

Touching on the mental illness thing......

Mental illness can be incredibly hard to diagnose and treat properly. I know of someone close to me who is bi-polar, was at first mis-diagnosed as being depressed and prescribed strong anti-depressants, this is a huge no no for someone with bi-polar disorder as it will apparently cause major meltdowns when they are in their up moments. He ended up on the living room floor one night with bleeding wrists and vomiting from an attempted overdose after self medicating with alcohol on top of the anti-depressants. Dumped all his anti-depressant scripts down the toilet the next day and could not recall what triggered the suicidal snap.

Like someone above said, someone with mental illness can hide it quite well just like a functional addict and you never know until they lose control.
 
hinckley
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:59 am

This is a tough issue that many of us are struggling with. I too have been touched by suicide in my family. And as others have said, it can be impossible to know if a loved one has suicidal tendencies. It can indeed be well hidden and impossible to prevent.

With that said, we live in an unfortunate world that regularly witnesses people committing acts of mass murder and killing themselves in the process. We may use terms like "suicide bomber", but we think "murderer". So is there really a difference between someone who wants to kill 149 people and commits suicide in the process, and someone who wants to commit suicide and intentionally kills 149 others in the process? Aren't they both mass murder?

This is all very raw right now. It's a tough night to sleep for many people around the world.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 211):
What about a dozen or so pax, running a meal cart down the aisle into the door? Would this had been enough? Ala UA 93? Ore are the doors too strong now?

Presumably not. Note the doors open outward so ramming the door is mostly going to result in the door seating deeper into its frame, if anything.
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:02 am

Man. The way this tragedy is hitting close to home. Come to find out my GF is a professional acquaintance of Emily Selke and my mom's colleague was a very good friend of Emily's too. So not very close but close. So sad.
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texdravid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:07 am

Once the captain was done going to the bathroom and was trying to get
Back to the cockpit, he surely must have been horrified as to the turn of events.

So, what if he acted above 10k feet and did the unimaginable?

Purposefully cause an explosive decompression and thus automatically unlocking door?

Sorry if this is just silly or not feasible.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:11 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 221):
Presumably not. Note the doors open outward so ramming the door is mostly going to result in the door seating deeper into its frame, if anything.

I just can't help think about the anguish the captain went through. Of all the people, his senses were finally tuned to that plane. Every microbe of his body knew that the plane was descending...rapidly...over a mountainous region...at a fast rate. I bet he knew in his head about how much time they had. The weight was on his shoulders. He could hear the 'terrain warning' alarms. He knew he was only but...what...2 meters from the auto pilot altitude knob...that turning it to the right a few times would mean life or death. He screamed...he pounded...he heard the screams and cries of those he was determined to save...he used the axe...and in a moment...it was too late.

I can't help but think of him, standing there in the lav, taking care of nature's business and then feeling the plane do something that wasn't according to plan...the WTF moment he must of had...before he zipped up his pants, spun around with a knot in his stomach...confused...pleading with the co-pilot...then rage...his life flashed before his eyes...and that was it.
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freqflyerNYC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:11 am

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 218):
3. Cameras should be present in all cockpits - I don't think anyone believes pilot privacy concerns are valid in this day and age.

I suspect the pilots' unions do, so therefore the airlines will probably never be able to install them.
And furthermore, cameras would have done nothing to prevent this tragedy. If the alleged insane pilot would have felt uncomfortable performing his actions under a watchful eye, he simply would have used a few strips of masking tape to blind any future or present voyeurs

It has nothing to do with preventing the tragedy, just as a flight attendant having the ability to call ATC, or issue a distress warning, would not have saved the plane either. But it would have provided more information later, and prevented the kind of speculation that runs rampant with these types of tragedies.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:11 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 132):
Quoting MigPilot (Reply 129):
I don’t know. But if this is what happened he must have used quite a high doses for quick effect – which should be detectable by forensic medicine.

If one hits a granite mountain wall at 700 km/h I doubt there is anything left to examine for forensic medicine.

Yes there will. Even yesterday they said that some human remains had already been recovered.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:12 am

I can't find a hint of second crash axe on an A320.

Not sure how they'd know from the sound, anyway.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 195):
Police investigating the Germanwings crash said tonight they had made a 'significant discovery' at the home of pilot Andreas Lubitz, who deliberately ploughed the Airbus A320 into the French Alps.
Officers

I'm willing to bet that there will be some evidence there that leads investigators towards his particular motivation for committing this alleged mass murder. IMHO, him deleting his Facebook profile days ago indicates he was having some personal troubles, but that doesn't in itself point towards plans to commit premeditated murder. Regardless, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some amount of forensic evidence on the computer the authorities have seized from his residence, though they may need to process it thoroughly if he has tried to cover his tracks, like he appeared to be attempting to do by beginning to delete his online footprint.

This situation will just become that much more heartbreaking if it appears that it could've been avoidable had some indicators been picked up on by his family or peers, especially if the report of his depression during flight school in 2009 end up being true. My father and step mother used to live next door to a LH captain back in 2000 just outside of SNN, and knew he had severe mental issues, including suicidal ideations. I was troubled deeply by the thought of him being at the controls of an airliner, and was pleased to hear that he eventually left the airline for another line of work. In the case of Lubitz, him having professional troubles based on mental issues that prevented him from completing his training initially may be just the tip of the iceberg as far as signs of trouble that were present to those who knew him well. So far the initial interviews of his neighbors have indicated that they're in shock like everyone else, and didn't seem to think of him as being capable of committing such a heinous act. Still, I doubt that he didn't show some signs of troubled thinking prior to taking 149 innocent souls with him on that fatal course into the mountainside.

Best,

OMP777X

[Edited 2015-03-26 18:23:43]
"Happy Flighting!"
 
Rivet42
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 58):
Rot in Hell co-pilot Andreas Lubitz

Very sorry MC, but this comment is below you.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):
My daughter committed suicide in her late teens as a result of a mental illness in a way that could have, but fortunately didn't, kill others at the same time. Do you think she should rot in hell?

Clearly you are - through the saddest of circumstances - better placed than most here to comment on the deceptiveness of mental illness. So many condolences for that 'knowledge'.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 116):
If this happened as speculated, it was more than just a mental illness, it was an act of evil

I can't make any sense out of that statement whatsoever; AoE if premeditated and calculating, yes - but who has actually speculated that? Most of the speculation seems to be that he had some kind of breakdown.

Quoting BleuDeFrance (Reply 69):
i'm sure he was going through a deep mental ilness to be able to provoke an horrendous tragedy like this.

Exactly.

What is almost as tragic as the events themselves are so many judgmental comments by people ignorant of or outright dismissive of the complex nature of mental illness. Nothing can condone nor excuse what this guy did, but unless it can be proven that he did this in a calculated and rational manner, then it is likely that he had entered a state of mind so severely disconnected from empathy and rationality that it's unlikely he 'knew' what he was doing.

Let's hold our stones until we know more about his state of mind, for everyone's sake, including the dignity of the stone throwers.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 228):
I can't find a hint of second crash axe on an A320.

Not sure how they'd know from the sound, anyway.

It would sound just like any hard object hitting the door, the axe wouldn't breach the door.

If that report is true it would most likely be an oxygen bottle, on the A320 it is just by the door.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
hinckley
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting susej772 (Reply 230):
The link at Washington Post had a photo on the outside of the house that looked like a "Hebrew Script font." His name origin is Slavic/Germanic I believe, but there are a lot of Jews that are there.

OMG!! Really?? Are you that ignorant and unworldly?? Have you ever traveled in Germany?? Have you ever read a book about Germany?? "Hebrew Script"? Incredibly ignorant.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting hinckley (Reply 234):
OMG!! Really?? Are you that ignorant and unworldly?? Have you ever traveled in Germany?? Have you ever read a book about Germany?? "Hebrew Script"? Incredibly ignorant.

I studied abroad in Israel and Jordan. Been to 24 countries, including Germany. And am German in heritage. Not sure if that answers your questions, but...

I am all for you pointing out what it is, so far you just said what it isn't in your opinion.

I wasn't saying it was Hebrew. What I was saying is that it looks like a Hebrew Script font transliterated into a Germanic language. Similar to a box I have on my desk that is my last name (Borgmann) in a Hebrew Script font I got from Israel when I lived there.

[Edited 2015-03-26 18:25:01]
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 224):
So, what if he acted above 10k feet and did the unimaginable? Purposefully cause an explosive decompression and thus automatically unlocking door?

If he would have thought of it he would have done it I'm sure. That is a pretty esoteric bit of technical trivia to have been at the forefront of his mind at that moment.

On the other hand; that cat's out of the bag now for everyone else.
 
hinckley
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:25 am

Quoting susej772 (Reply 235):
I am all for you pointing out what it is, so far you just said what it isn't in your opinion.

It is a very typical old German script, much like the masthead of the New York Times is a very typical old English script. Religion has nothing to do with it.
 
IADCA
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:25 am

Quoting susej772 (Reply 230):
His name origin is Slavic/Germanic I believe, but there are a lot of Jews that are there.

I have no idea if this is the actual origin of the name, but it's a pretty close transliteration of the Russian verb "to love." I don't think the name is at all significant.
 
CptHaddock
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:26 am

A Tragedy. Somehow, 150 names have been added to the long list of victims of 9/11, even this is probably more a problem of mental illness. But that flawed procedure of cockpit protection was adopted because of the 9/11 tragedy. The intentions were good. But rule N°1 of modern aviation is redundancy. The lock door mechanism was the ultimate redundancy for a situation where danger would come from the cabin. When the danger sits alone in the cockpit, the lock door mechanism forbids any kind of redundancy.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting hinckley (Reply 237):
It is a very typical old German script, much like the masthead of the New York Times is a very typical old English script. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Fair enough. Now isn't that a better response than a personal attack?

Quoting hinckley (Reply 237):
Religion has nothing to do with it.

Also, that is literally what I said in the same paragraph.

Quoting susej772 (Reply 230):
Not sure this means anything to be honest quite frankly. My comments about murder vs. terrorism above still guide how to classify this in my book, not religion.


[Edited 2015-03-26 18:32:59]
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 77):
My daughter committed suicide in her late teens as a result of a mental illness in a way that could have, but fortunately didn't, kill others at the same time. Do you think she should rot in hell?

Sorry to hear about your loss. The other poster is probably reacting as I have, with anger towards the co-pilot for taking 149 other lives who wanted to live. Innocent children too. If you have to take your own, do it alone, do not hurt anymore people.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 83):
I have seen no indication of mental illness on the part of the FO.

Taking time off for depression probably is a sign of trouble.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 191):
Captain apparently used the crash axe on the door, and that is what panicked the passengers.
Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 204):
Don't know where he could have found a crash axe, since that is normally stored in the cockpit. Sounds like he might have found something to hammer with, but not the aircraft crash axe.
Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 209):
Unless 4U SOPs mandate you take the crash axe with you when you leave the flight deck, doubt there is any truth to this.

Crash axe is in the cockpit. Have never seen it brought out into the cabin during a flight. More then likely, he was using a fire extinguisher as a battering ram to no avail.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 211):
What about a dozen or so pax, running a meal cart down the aisle into the door? Would this had been enough? Ala UA 93? Ore are the doors too strong now?

A cart will not go through that door. Had a airplane being taxied, and they slammed on the brakes. A unsecured cart in the aft galley, came all the way down the aisle and smashed into the cockpit door. The cart supposedly had more damage then the cockpit door. These doors are armored.

This co-pilot kept the Captain out of the cockpit. If the co-pilot was incapacitated, punching a code on the keypad would get the Captain access in about 30 seconds or less. Same on Boeings.

The doors are going to stay the way they are. This door worked as designed, horrifically. Procedures may change, but the doors are staying the way they are. More madman outside the cockpit then there are inside the cockpit. Have to see what this 'significant discovery' at the flat of the co-pilot is all about. Seized his computer among other things.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ash-Airbus-A320-Barcelonnette.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ash-Airbus-A320-Barcelonnette.html
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SuseJ772
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 242):
More madman outside the cockpit then there are inside the cockpit

That is for sure true.
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holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:35 am

That pc is a custom build...nothing unusual though
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MillwallSean
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:36 am

Alot can be said about the co-pilot and his assumed actions.

But lets stay civil. His family is not to be dragged in to this and these publications of the family house, the family door-sign is rather tragic. Stick to publishing his flat in Dusseldorf etc.

FYI - The door sign is a perfectly normal European door-sign saying family XX. There is nothing ethnic whatsoever in it.
Having seen the images of the house, its a normal middle class family home. Lubitz as a name doesn't strike me as a very weird or strange such. Ive attended a protestant church where we had a Lubitz. German ancestry but living in Australia at the time.

A home where this gentleman lived a little bit to long.
Most males age 28 would, if they had their own apartments, prefer to live by themselves and not with mum and dad. That tells me that this man is perhaps not the most social lad nor the most normal individual there is. That doesn't mean he is bad (well he is judging by these actions) but he is definately not your average bloke. Maybe a nerd, a airplane junkie, maybe immature or in need of his parents support for his normal days to be sane.
But having residencies in Dusseldorf and his old village/small town and choosing to return to the village/small town and his mums food, care and company isn't what average 28 year blokes in Europe do. However being a nerd or without a social life doesn't mean people are bad.

Also these ideas about cockpit entrances. One of the few things past 11/9 thats worked is obviously the no access to the cockpit doors.
We have, now, with one accident in Namibia and one here, seen that this comes with consequences. The idea of allowing more people into a cockpit such as FA:s (whose mental status isn't checked to the level of pilots), doesn't strike me as safer. Thats more people who can cause issues, not risk elimination.
What solutions could be incorporated that allow people on the ground the ability to override cockpit inputs, ie open the doors?

[Edited 2015-03-26 18:40:13]

[Edited 2015-03-26 18:51:05]
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LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 242):

Taking time off for depression probably is a sign of trouble.

Sure, and if that had been published earlier, I would have read it, and not made the comment.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:40 am

This just hit close to home. A relative of mine found out that a Bosnian couple who lived in Dusseldorf were among the victims. They were returning home from a soccer game in Barcelona. They come from my birth town in Bosnia and Herzegovina. They leave behind 3 children. I had to search for it, and sure enough (it is in Bosnian)... http://www.avaz.ba/clanak/170376/feh...cali-se-sa-utakmice-barcelona-real  
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 246):

We have Ethiopian 702 as well. Luckily that FO only wanted asylum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_702
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 242):
More then likely, he was using a fire extinguisher as a battering ram to no avail.

Correct, that or an O2 bottle, both are located near the flight deck door on the A320 and it would be natural to grab them to make an attempt for re-entry. Also the sight of a pilot entering the cabin holding an axe would be unsettling to most.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 242):
A cart will not go through that door. Had a airplane being taxied, and they slammed on the brakes. A unsecured cart in the aft galley, came all the way down the aisle and smashed into the cockpit door. The cart supposedly had more damage then the cockpit door. These doors are armored.

On some aircraft there is a threshold as well, the door is slightly elevated. You would therefore be unable to use the full force of the cart on the door. Not sure if this is the case with the A320?
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:08 am

I had to vent down before posting, because quite frankly I am pissed as hell.

So now we have to worry about the Pilots life, divorce, alimony, finances and mental state when we take a flight....give me a break!
What I find incredible is that some people could not identify the potential depressive-suicidal mentality of the Pilot.

Don't get me wrong my Thesis and my main investigatgions are regarding depression, yep I work for Apple but my are or educational expertise is in Mental depression and worked in Mental institutions. You can put some people trough tests and it WILL SHOW. I am very angry that 150 pax died just because someone "could not take it anymore".

We can are about the lock mechanism for ages but if someone in the cockpit wants to commit suicide you as a PAX are ..... you get it.

I feel so sorry for the family, they not only lost a member, but will be scorned for something they did not commit. they are also victims no matter what, in case of the suicidal pilot, as Madamme Concorde said, he can rot in hell.

Poor people they had no chance I can't believe the fear and frustration of the captain and the crew...

TRB
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AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 251):
Don't get me wrong my Thesis and my main investigatgions are regarding depression, yep I work for Apple but my are or educational expertise is in Mental depression and worked in Mental institutions. You can put some people trough tests and it WILL SHOW.

That is true. LH should have caught the issue. IF, big IF, it was depression. I have serious doubts about that, though.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:16 am

Why are there two threads open for this topic running simultaneously?

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OMP777X
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em25
Posts: 2
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:18 am

Need a bail out system for passengers.

It frustrates me that the passengers and crew had several minutes, 3 may be 5, after the captain realized what was going on.
They could have tried to do something to save their lives but they had no last resource available in the cabin, nothing just wait..

A parachute bail out system of some sort could help save many lives in cases like this and similar where
there is some time to react. Yes significant redesign of the A/C and cost will be involved but IMO most people will be willing
to pay more to fly a bit safer. I just feel that much more can be done to apply existing technology to increase flight safety.

Absurd as it may sound, if simple parachutes were available in the cabin of GWI9525, IMHO some passengers will be now alive.

I hope aviation regulators and manufacturers consider this possibility for future A/C designs.

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