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cialome
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:20 pm

Something I never understood was allowing the cockpit to be staffed by one person, there was no redundancy. I am not dropping into discuss that particular argument but drop the next one. Pilots allowed to carry guns - again, I don't understand this policy.

Secondly, is this only in the United States (FAA) or are other countries allowing weapons? From my standpoint we have this tremendous theatre setup to ensure the security of the plane, and then allow the exact same thing you don't want into the cockpit.

Now, with the added layer of 'harm from within' when does this policy begin to be at discussed.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 129):
The Copilot was not cleared to fly by his doctor. The document was found ripped up in his apartment. He should not have been at work.

Dear god...

LH and their insurance company need to start preparing money... Probably negligence from their part.
 
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BubbleFrog
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:24 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 149):
The future looks very bleak for my favorite airline...ME3 and VC aside...to quote Reuters...

Support from the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...lar-compensation-claims-over-crash

Although I couldn't possibly say how accurate this is -- law being not exactly my strong point.
Absolute Relativist
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting cialome (Reply 150):

Well under the old scheme even if the one pilot is incapacitated the door pin code override would be usable. They never thought what happens if someone on the inside is acting maliciously. Two people doesn't stop one malicious person from acting to lock out the others by incapacitating the other person with them.

Gun control well that is a different area of discussion.

The question of how to secure the door from threats from both sides is easily solve by a key pool with cabin crew. If a pilot is locked out then they can override the door regardless of how many are inside.

If an outside attacker amongst the passengers tries to gain access then the crew individually only need to have a one key erased to render the door secure.
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 148):
how about an ATC licence, running a nuclear powerplant, a water treatment facility, being a heart surgeon. ?? Where does it end??

I don't think in any of those jobs you can lock yourself alone in a vault and take control alone.
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Rivet42
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 98):
The captin knew, the cabin passengers knew the flight voice recorder has them banging, hitting the door, and screaming all the while. It is utterly terrible that in the minutes they had there was nothing they could do to open the door.

No. That's not what has been reported; please review the published CVR analysis, and try not to misrepresent as something else to suit your own 'analysis'.

Quoted from BBC website's review of 'What we know'...

"During the very last moment of the recording passengers can be heard screaming. Mr Robin said he believed they were unaware of what was happening in the cockpit up until this point."

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:28 pm

I have no problem discriminating against mental illness when it comes to certain jobs.

The stigma of mental illness seems to keep many from treating it like any other condition or defect that would prevent someone from flying a commercial aircraft. There should be regular rigorous testing of mental capacity for pilots and other jobs where the public safety is concerned. The results of these tests should not be private between the pilot and doctor. Aren't regular eye exams the norm for pilots? Regular physicals, etc. Aren't these results shared with the employer? Why is mental health any different?

Nothing is perfect, some will get through anyway, but it's better than nothing.

So as it stands now, if this report is true, he was told he was unfit to fly, he ripped up the paper, flew anyway, and killed 149 people. Murderer.

RIP to the victims.
M a r k
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 151):

It could be explained away that the doctor was allowing the guy to call in sick not that he was immediately dangerous to life and limb. The guy under intense stress and increasing scrutiny tore up the sick note because he feared he would be sidelined and his career would be over instantly. Then that day he cracked.

Doctors are already allowed to break patient confidentiality if they think a person is an immediate risk but this doctor did not do so and probably just thought the guy was a bit down and might need some time off to relieve stress.
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 135):
And what happens to the pilot who comes forward then? You wait for a doctor to clear him and put him on the next plane as a ticking time bomb? What IS the best strategy to deal with depressed people in sensitive professions?

Well, I don't think there is a simple answer. That is not to say that there aren't answers, but the first thing is to create a climate where disclosure is not penalised. Making depression an automatic career-ending event, as some have suggested, would be completely counter-productive in that respect. But once a pilot has been diagnosed with depression - or even reported sub-clinical symptoms that might be indicative of vulnerability to depression - then clearly careful and sympathetic monitoring is important, although not fool-proof (as in this case). It might also be possible to devise some relatively objective tests that test implicit attitudes, targetted specifically at suicidal thoughts, but I do not know of any such tests in use at present, although I know of some in development.

Quote:
Quoting Lizzie (Reply 128):
Yes, it can. More to the point, never having had depression is no guarantee that you won't get it one day. Even more to the point, a diagnosis of depression isn't even a very good predictor of suicide, and the vast majority of people with depression do NOT commit suicide.

Sure, but it is thousand times more like someone who had depression will kill himself, compared to the general public.

The important statistic is not the proportion of suicides who are depressed, but the proportion with a prior known diagnosis of depression. Yes, most people who kill themselves are depressed (or satisfy criteria for depression, at least temporarily), and most people who are not depressed do not kill themselves. But the issue here is prediction. But many people who kill themselves are only inferred to have been depressed after the event. Indeed, suicidal ideation is one of the diagnostic criteria for depression, so any person who commits suicide has fulfilled at least one of the five criteria required for diagnosis.

And long-term depression is not the only condition that elevates suicide risk.

It's perhaps also worth noting that suicidal ideation is often accompanied by the delusional belief that life is worthless for everyone, not just for the person him/herself. To someone in a frame of mind in which death is a desirable thing, it may not be obvious to him/her at that time that it isn't also a desirable thing for a plane-load of passengers. This may be what is going on in cases where a parent kills both him/herself and his/her children.
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:30 pm

That's why I asked the question about social stigma...

There is a direct implication in regards to one's willingness to seek help, treatment and be open with an employer.
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Francoflier
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 156):
Aren't these results shared with the employer?

No they're not. Becoming a pilot does not entail the complete surrendering of one's right to privacy...

The employer only knows whether the aviation doctors clear the pilot to fly or not. That's all they need to know.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Alfiberia
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:30 pm

German Investigators from the Public Attorney´s Office in Duesseldorf just informed in a press release, that after searching the home of the First Officer by the police they did not found any farewell or suicide note but documents stating that he was on sick leave for this day and it seems that some documents like the doctors certificate was lying in the trash bin. The also secured some medical documents assuming that the first officer may have been under medical treatment. According to the attorney´s office it seems that the first officer may not have informed his company i.e. germanwings.
In Germany a doctor´s sick leave must be presented latest after the third working day, for the first day it is sufficient to send a call.
But given the fact that you are "officially" sick and you show up at work at this day, this may cause to relevant labour consequences for the employee.

I am very sorry for what happened to all victims, relatives and also to ALL crews. I really hope that after this tragic event we will see at least an improvement in Aviation Safety...

You will find the official press release as PDF under this link:

http://www.sta-duesseldorf.nrw.de/behoerde/presse/Pressemitt/index.php

" Die Maßnahmen haben nicht zur Auffindung eines sog. Abschiedsbriefes oder Bekennerschreibens geführt. Ebenso wenig haben sich Anhaltspunkte für einen politischen oder religiösen Hintergrund des Geschehens ergeben.
Allerdings wurden Dokumente medizinischen Inhalts sichergestellt, die auf eine bestehende Erkrankung und entsprechende ärztliche Behandlungen hinweisen. Der Umstand, dass dabei u.a. zerrissene, aktuelle und auch den Tattag umfassende Krankschreibungen gefunden wurden, stützt nach vorläufiger Bewertung die Annahme, dass der Verstorbene seine Erkrankung gegenüber dem Arbeitgeber und dem beruflichen Umfeld verheimlicht hat."
alfiberia
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:31 pm

Regarding the new information that he was declared ill. The employee oce declared unable to work by the doctor must inform his employer by himself. You get two different letters from a german doctor called Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung. One is for the employer and does NOT include the diagnosis. It only says how many days. If the employee doesnt send it to the employer the company wont find out he is ill. Normally a sick employer would send it to the company, of course since this is your obligation to do so and because normally you want to stay at home. Actually it is unlawful to work when declared sick by the doctor even in normal jobs for the period the doctor has declared you unable to work. But many do it anyway. I must admit I also have returned to the office after 2 days when doctor had said 3. But this is not allowed. Of course flying a plane is different from just sitting at the office but the rule applies for everyone.

There is a second document for the health insurance. This includes the ICD 10 code forthe diagnosis.
 
Rara
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting na (Reply 145):
Why? I mean, if he interrupted for 6 months, it was quite serious, dont you think? That should raise alarm bells.

Yes. But anyone who knows a number of pilots personally should be aware of the fact that while many are quite well-rounded folks, many are... not. I should't write too much on a public forum, but suffice to say that depression and other mental problems are as common, if not more common, among professional pilots, than they are with the public at large. Crews sometimes know.. there are rumors. Folks keep it hidden, but if they have an episode during a trip, there's not much they can do.


Actually I will relate one story, because they guy concerned has passed away by now. Years ago, at a large German airline, there was one airline captain who had always been a little peculiar - until one day, he refused to speak to his colleagues directly, and instead took to communication through his toy rabbit, which he took with him on every trip. If you wanted something from the captain, you had to address the toy rabbit. And I mean, on duty. Everybody knew about it, but the company wouldn't do anything, because there was no hard evidence and the captain was about to be retired. Retire he did, he's dead now.

Mental health and cockpit crew. It's a complex topic marked by silence more than anything. That silence may now be over, with the public attention over 4U9525. If airlines get serious about it, there are a lot of careers in danger.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting Alfiberia (Reply 161):
No they're not. Becoming a pilot does not entail the complete surrendering of one's right to privacy...

The employer only knows whether the aviation doctors clear the pilot to fly or not. That's all they need to know.

I can understand this, so what I'm suggesting is that a mental evaluation be included in this testing.
M a r k
 
trex8
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 154):
I don't think in any of those jobs you can lock yourself alone in a vault and take control alone.

Neither can a taxi or bus driver be totally alone and the surgeon while surrounded by others can do things in a wink of an eye no one else will be able to stop or even know its happening but I think the point InsideMan was making that I was replying to is that certain professions be off limits to certain medical conditions. Problem I have is that depression is a vast spectrum. Many people given the right situation of life inducing stress - divorce,death in family, being a POW or a multitude of other events may become depressed, doesn't mean they will ever have it again. Its not black and white.
 
Rivet42
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 136):
How could they have released the CVR Data in less than 36 hours?
I mean, the data of the MH17 hasn't been released yet, and it's been almost one year.
We know for certain that they found it on the first few days, but... One year versus 36 hours?
Shouldn't have investigators been much more cautious with releasing that information?

Because some idiot involved in the investigation compromised the confidentiality of said investigation by leaking snippets of CVR info to the media, and the BEA had no choice following the inevitable media frenzy to verify what had been claimed.

That idiot should be subject to the full force of the law - all air-crash investigations have to be treated as possible criminal investigations until such time as criminality can be eliminated, and leaking the contents of a criminal investigation in most countries is (or should be) a very serious offence, for very obvious reasons.

Sorry, I had intended to make that point earlier in the debate, but things had moved on until I came across your post and felt that it deserved a response.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
na
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 151):
LH and their insurance company need to start preparing money... Probably negligence from their part.

Well, as no one must surrender his complete private life if he wants to be a pilot it leaves some room for good actors to hide the truth. And this apparently happened. Lupitz had a note in his file that he must be checked more often than average so if that was done I cant see really why gross negligence can be legally proven. But I would be surprised if LH wouldnt be generous in terms of financial settlements. I think they´ll pay more than they are legally asked for, without being forced to.
 
NAV30
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 151):
LH and their insurance company need to start preparing money... Probably negligence from their part.

Doesn't necessarily follow, s5daw. On present evidence, the doctors correctly informed the patient of the risks he was taking - but could not and DID not inform his employers, which would have been violating the privacy to which the patient was entitled?

On present evidence, therefore, no liability attaches to the employers? Nobody appears to have told them about the problems the guy was facing?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 141):
You mean by allowing doctors to break patient confidentiality to inform the employers directly? Surely if people know that they won't see their doctors at all, which will definitely not help matters.

That must come hand in hand with good worker protection laws if the doctor is allowed to break the patient's confidentiality.

And one may think that if the doctor feared an act of violence against passengers that he would have informed the German aviation ministry very quickly! We do still not know if he visited a psychiatrist, or an eye doctor or even a gynecologist. Every doctor is allowed to prescribe drugs for *any* reason, and sign a sickness certificate. If it was a psychiatrist, that would raise questions if detecting suicidal pilots would be feasible to begin with. Perhaps Andreas L. could reassure him (about suicidal tendencies), but he still got a sick leave.

Quoting na (Reply 145):
Why? I mean, if he interrupted for 6 months, it was quite serious, dont you think? That should raise alarm bells.

I've been off work longer than that for psychological reasons. And yet they trust me with responsible research work, and justice department's custody office keeps me on a little job involving managing the wealth of a blind person. It's quite a bit larger than mine. And they know I've been jobless.

It's all about learning what people can do well despite their individual weaknesses. I would be very surprised if less than 5% of all pilots had a kind of psychological problem. I've recently read an accident report on a rather harmless train accident - the engine driver took drugs against depression.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 159):
That's why I asked the question about social stigma...

There is a direct implication in regards to one's willingness to seek help, treatment and be open with an employer.

Exactly.

I guess my point is that if we don't want suicidal people flying aeroplanes, the answer is not (at least not yet) simple psychological screening, with career-end as the result of failure to pass the screen. We simply do not have good enough screening tools at this point, and without tests with high Predictive Validity, they are likely to be worse than useless, at least if the answer to any positive screen is end-of-career. It will simply create a culture of non-disclosure. While psychosis can be hard to mask, suicidal depression can coexist with the cognitive skills required to disguise symptoms. As in this case.

If I had to spend money on this problem, I'd put it into extremely generous rates of compensation for the adverse career effects of a diagnosis of depression, with financial incentives for pilots to report any early symptoms of depression or relapse, and regular, sympathetic monitoring and support.

Plus research into better objective tests for suicidal ideation.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 156):
I have no problem discriminating against mental illness when it comes to certain jobs.

So you're saying that pilots shouldn't have the right to be depressed, or that regular psychological testing allows to predict suicidal behavior with a large degree of accuracy, or even that the scrupulous and oppressive scrutiny of pilots' mental health is going to help weed out the element of risk rather than help them hide it even further?

Hey, what about outlawing suicide? That should work too...

There is an element of behavioral risk every time anybody or anything deals with human beings.
How is this different from a deranged kid showing up at school with a gun and indiscriminately murdering his schoolmates? What have we done about that?
I'm afraid that until we come up with a pilotless aircraft people are willing to trust their lives to, there is not much more that can be done.

Now, maybe helping pilots through their difficult times or helping them maintain a decent standard of living rather than push them towards exhaustion, stress and despair for the sake of productivity and penny pinching might help a little...

The real solution might come with additional costs reflected on ticket prices that many of the vocal supporter of radical 'solutions' would ironically find quite unpalatable...
Just as well people have a short memory and will have moved on to next week's big news soon. Then they can board their next LCC flight with peace of mind.
  

[Edited 2015-03-27 05:54:49]
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 170):

Careful with making it too generous or people will become pilots and fake depression to get a sweet deal.

Better mental health is good and all but the door control logic is clearly not helping and a cabin crew key pool would fix that problem without weakening security.
 
ovenorway
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:58 pm

In Norway a doctor who finds a pilot not fit to fly is obliged by law to report this to the authorities.
Privacy protection is put aside in such cases.

[Edited 2015-03-27 06:02:05]

[Edited 2015-03-27 06:03:11]
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 172):

Careful with making it too generous or people will become pilots and fake depression to get a sweet deal.

That is true. But it's a better, if more expensive, way of ensuring that pilots with suicidal depression don't fly than making suicidal depression a career-ending admission. And less expensive in every way than these tragedies.

Quote:

Better mental health is good and all but the door control logic is clearly not helping and a cabin crew key pool would fix that problem without weakening security.

I'm all for a technofix if there is one. My expertise is in mental health, not armoured door locks!
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:00 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 171):
Now, maybe helping pilots through their difficult times or helping them maintain a decent standard of living rather than push them towards exhaustion, stress and despair for the sake of productivity and penny pinching might help a little...

The standard of living thing may be an issue if we are forcing safety critical people into situations like Foxconn factory workers where the stress, quotas, productivity demands, penny pinching, just pile on up coupled with extensive safety standards and testing. So maybe just paying pilots more would help, but I doubt companies would do that as it costs them too much money. And unlike a factory dorm you can't put an actual suicide safety net for a passenger jet.
 
Eurohub
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:00 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 151):
LH and their insurance company need to start preparing money... Probably negligence from their part


I would say quite the opposite in fact, by failing to follow the laid-down procedure that required him to notify his employer that he had been declared medically unfit for work, it puts the blame squarely at his door and not at LH or their insurance.

LH cannot be liable for letting him fly when he was declared unfit to do so if they didn't know he was unfit to fly because he didn't tell them.
Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
 
Egerton
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:02 pm

There is a new report in the FT on ICAO and the finding of sick notes in the flat of the co-pilot, can be accessed via Google News, UK edition which can be accessed by all - see footer of Google News pages.

[Edited 2015-03-27 06:07:26]
 
trex8
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 168):
Doesn't necessarily follow, s5daw. On present evidence, the doctors correctly informed the patient of the risks he was taking - but could not and DID not inform his employers, which would have been violating the privacy to which the patient was entitled?

I'm no lawyer or medical ethicist but I doubt there is any country anywhere that allows absolute medical confidentiality if there is risk to other people or the patient. Its one thing to say its unethical for the doctor to let the public or my employer know I have syphilis (though I wouldnt be surprised there are jurisdictions where that requires mandatory reporting to the local health department like TB) and another if I take my AK47 to the psychiatrists office and say after I leave I'm going out to the local school and make those SOB pay . If that doctor didnt call the police I suspect he'd be in big trouble with both law and medical licencing authorities.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 171):
The real solution might come with additional costs reflected on ticket prices that many of the vocal supporter of radical 'solutions' would ironically find quite unpalatable...
Just as well people have a short memory and will have moved on to next week's big news soon. Then they can board their next LCC flight with peace of mind.

Not much cost really. As in every other job you would only return to work after being seen as fit by the doctors. Maybe there could be positions in flight scheduling as an entry back into the job. Depression is mostly dangerous when the people around you do not know about it. Would the pilot in command have known he would probably sent the FA under going pilot training into the cockpit while going to the toilet.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 115):
I have read 630 hours flying time, total.
I am really surprised of that as well...

Lufthansa is not telling the entire truth. He is working since 1.5 years in LCC enviroment and accrued only 600 hours total time ? Pilots I know fly 900 hours up to the maximum allowed. So he was out for few months more and probably he was due to be out again and that would be the end of his career. This was perhaps the reason for his crime. His dream was destroyed. So Lufthansa is clearly at fault. They knew that he was sick, may be he was even accidentily scheduled for duty, may be he was told to leave. Something Lufthansa is hiding and would only reveal when someone else is finding out. They should better admit the shortcomings.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 174):
That is true. But it's a better, if more expensive, way of ensuring that pilots with suicidal depression don't fly than making suicidal depression a career-ending admission. And less expensive in every way than these tragedies.

Putting the money towards just paying the pilots more in general would make for less stress. And I think we can be confident in saying stress can cause depression which can cause suicide. Increase pay, more paid vacation for everyone, and lots of perks and free stuff. The only problem is I don't think companies are going to go with that option as it would be very costly.

A technological fix would be very cheap comparatively and would still mitigate this problem even if they improve the mental health aspects. (Also would help with the rare one that for some reason is still suicidal even with a higher standard of living)

I guess if the government funds a program to allow pilots to wash out with a pension provided by the government then that might be a good idea. Not sure if the governments will like it though either as it would still be a lot of money.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 180):
Lufthansa is not telling the entire truth. He is working since 1.5 years in LCC enviroment and accrued only 600 hours total time ? Pilots I know fly 900 hours up to the maximum allowed. So he was out for few months more and probably he was due to be out again and that would be the end of his career. This was perhaps the reason for his crime. His dream was destroyed. So Lufthansa is clearly at fault. They knew that he was sick, may be he was even accidentily scheduled for duty, may be he was told to leave. Something Lufthansa is hiding and would only reveal when someone else is finding out. They should better admit the shortcomings.

Pure speculation and IMHO not appropriate at this time.
 
markalot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 172):
So you're saying that pilots shouldn't have the right to be depressed, or that regular psychological testing allows to predict suicidal behavior with a large degree of accuracy, or even that the scrupulous and oppressive scrutiny of pilots' mental health is going to help weed out the element of risk rather than help them hide it even further?

You are throwing up false arguments in my opinion.

If I have the flu I am ill and probably should not be flying. If I am depressed I am ill and should not be flying. I can be cured.

There is no 100% fool proof solution, but that does not mean something should not be done.

If I re-word what you said to ...

---
So pilots should not have the right to be sick, or that regular physical testing should allow us to predict future performance with a large degree of accuracy, or even that the scrupulous and oppressive scrutiny of pilots health is going to help weed out the element of risk rather than help them hide it even further?
---

So perhaps we should just throw out all testing, since even physicals can miss things that might cause an unexpected death or impairment while flying. If you take the stigma of mental health out of the picture you are left with just another condition and an imperfect system to help screen for possible issues.
M a r k
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 181):
Putting the money towards just paying the pilots more in general would make for less stress. And I think we can be confident in saying stress can cause depression which can cause suicide. Increase pay, more paid vacation for everyone, and lots of perks and free stuff. The only problem is I don't think companies are going to go with that option as it would be very costly.

Low pay can certainly cause stress, and stress can cause depression, but you won't eliminate depression by raising pay!

Whatever the solution, though, it needs to include incentives to disclose, not incentives to secrecy, and a blanket ban on anyone with a diagnosis of depression from flying a commercial aircraft would be a strong incentive to secrecy, as well as being ineffective.

I'm actually optimistic that in the foreseeable future it may be possible to predict relapse and suicide both objectively and relatively accurately. We just aren't there yet.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 182):
Pure speculation and IMHO not appropriate at this time.

It is common sense, if just before, LH CEO came out to say that the pilot was totally good to Fly, no indications whatsoever and now is saying our remaining pilots are the best in the world. They just run after the investigation to confirm anything.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
oldas
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:18 pm

I have personal experience with depressions coming from my wife´s family site and saw how it developed in various ages and with people working and living in various environments. Generally my experience:
- the first episode is the most difficult one because it is hard for everybody to accept being ill and that treatment is needed
- if in milder form you can learn how to live with it with just minor impact to your life but it needs a lot of own accountability and responsibility and you must learn how to recognize first symptoms of new episode to avoid it, but it is manageable
- the worst for the depressive people I feel are situations where they have no choice or they have choice but must decide between two or more but still negative solutions (let´s say going for less negative impact)
- a lot of cases where the initiator was inconsistency between what is expected or dreamed and what is life reality
- I personally feel that even if somebody is without symptoms for years after he was treated or went thru depressive episode he can not be evaluated as 100% non-depressive person any more
- on the other hand I see that "healed" persons who can perfectly recognize first symptoms and difficult situation are able to manage stressful situations and choices much better then people without any experience
- huge variety in symptoms and "what helps"
- if severe form, very hard to deal with it and you must expect everything

I can imagine someone who dreamed about to be a pilot, realized that real life as a pilot is different in reality than dreamed of and if you add some (for us as healthy people as minor) problems - what now? The thinking of such person could be:
"If I admit depressions I can´t do my job as a pilot anymore and then what I should do? I´m pilot who failed and have no other skills for today´s hard world. Everybody knows it was my dream, my life and now I failed ..."
I know that it is not true, you still have a lot of options, but this is how those people feel and think.

After my experience I´m now far from condemn somebody if he commits suicide but what I condemn is to take innocent people with it.

Anyway until the case is fully clear no one has right to point on copilot being terrorist or devil. That´s my opinion.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 175):
The standard of living thing may be an issue if we are forcing safety critical people into situations like Foxconn factory workers where the stress, quotas, productivity demands, penny pinching, just pile on up coupled with extensive safety standards and testing. So maybe just paying pilots more would help, but I doubt companies would do that as it costs them too much money. And unlike a factory dorm you can't put an actual suicide safety net for a passenger jet.

Well said, and thank you.

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 184):
Low pay can certainly cause stress, and stress can cause depression, but you won't eliminate depression by raising pay!

That is also true.

Pay is probably not even a main factor when it comes to accumulating stress and anxiety on pilots.
But generally worsening working conditions are. Those can be working working hours, for less benefits, with less job security, etc.

While many pilots still enjoy relatively good remuneration, the trend for the profession is generally downwards, stagnating, or at best, below inflation. Companies will tend to depreciate a pilot's package over the years and new hires are generally hired under less attractive packages than their older peers. This is counter intuitive as it goes against a general shortage of experienced pilots.
I know cases of very reputable airlines in which new hires have to share apartments among themselves to afford the rent and are looking at never really be able to comfortably afford a family unless their spouses have a decent job...

Whether this has anything to do with this particular case, who knows. But if people start to worry about the mental state of their pilots in the future, then it might be a issue to look at.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Do any of the depression experts here who think all sorts of people are depressed have any doubt that this co-pilot did not know that he was in process of killing 149 people?

And how many depressed people kill other people? Sure, there is the rare instance where insanity incapacitates moral action but this is not one of them.

We are doing a disservice to the mentally ill to speak of them in the same way we do about this co-pilot.
 
holzmann
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 188):
We are doing a disservice to the mentally ill to speak of them in the same way we do about this co-pilot.

Very good point.

There seems to be something more to this situation.
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ec99
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:33 pm

I am not an aviator but I do have significant experience with mental illness through my professional experience in workers comp/disability.

My question for the airline people here concerns the rules on taking medication and flying. If someone has moderate depression, the second step, after a few therapy sessions, is usually to put them on a SSRIs ("selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors") like Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft. However, these drugs do have significant side effects. I was wondering, if a pilot is taking these medications would he/she be unable to continue flying?
 
mmo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:33 pm

Where to start????

I am now retired due to medical issues, but I would have hit mandatory retirement in 15 months. So, I will try to speak as candid as I can about some of the issues raised.

One problem with psychological testing is the tests are only valid for that moment in time. When I was interviewing at various US airlines, each and every airline had some type of psych test. I spent 3 days at the Mayo Clinic getting poked and prodded at the expense of my ultimate employer. I took several psych tests and had an interview with a shrink. While that was the most exhaustive evaluation I had, each prospective employer had some testing. So, the foundation is already there and the system works as good as can be expected. Unless you mandate testing prior to each flight, the potential to have a similar accident will be there.

Being a pilot, for me was the best job in the world. Could it be better, absolutely. One drawback on being a pilot is we don't have the same options that non-pilot employees have. If I walk into the Chief Pilot's Office and said I was depressed and suicidal, I can assure you I would not be allowed to even look at an aircraft again. No employer would ever take the chance on putting you in a cockpit again. Is that fair??? I don't think so. Depression can be treated and cured. If diagnosed properly and treated aggressively it will resolve over time. But, the stigma is still there if you are a pilot. The words suicidal end a pilot's career.

There has been talk on here about the company should have known this and that about the mental status of the F/O. As far as I am concerned, it's all rubbish. It is 100% up to the pilot to keep his employer informed of his health condition. However, the industry as a whole forces pilots to be less than truthful about their mental and physical health. I know of several pilots who had mental health issues and kept it to themselves. Even pilots I know who have gone through messy divorces and faced financial issues were not fit to fly, but they did it anyhow because they had no options.

Alcoholism, in western aviation circles, is now recognized as an illness. However, mental health issues such as depression are not. That is really very sad. I think, they are both very similar and over time can be managed. The aviation community is going to have to decide if it's allowable for pilots to be more human and if so they will have to design a process where there is "no jeopardy" self reporting.

Just my thoughts.....
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Anrigu
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:33 pm

Forgive me if I offend any here but what's the deal with these ex pilots that rent themselves out as "aviation experts"? Some jerk was on CNN last night saying Germanwings was a no frills, budget carrier that has almost no connection with LH. To his credit, Richard Quest, who can be a bore sometimes, almost immediately, on air, told the guy how wrong he was.
 
Rivet42
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting oldas (Reply 186):
Anyway until the case is fully clear no one has right to point on copilot being terrorist or devil. That´s my opinion.

I would love to say 'let that be the last word on all the hysterical witch-hunting and stone throwing', but somehow I just know it won't be...

Thanks for sharing your experiences, they just add to the picture of how complex and multi-dimensional the issue really is. Goodness knows we've had enough people on here now with personal & direct experiences of mental illness and even suicide to move the debate into a much more useful direction, i.e. how to deal with mental health in the workplace, and especially in a workplace where other people's lives are at stake, as well as the very nature of mental illness itself.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:36 pm

We are so focussed on what to do to stop a suicidal pilot. However every day we give a single human being the keys to lives and hope he does his job.

Bus drivers, train drivers, etc etc.....all potentially can be suicidal...are we now going to say that there should always be two bus drivers at the helm of our tour bus to stop him driving off a bridge?

We gotta keep it in perspective
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
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InsideMan
Posts: 353
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 170):
If I had to spend money on this problem, I'd put it into extremely generous rates of compensation for the adverse career effects of a diagnosis of depression, with financial incentives for pilots to report any early symptoms of depression or relapse, and regular, sympathetic monitoring and support.

Plus research into better objective tests for suicidal ideation.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me.....
 
aviationaware
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 181):
Putting the money towards just paying the pilots more in general would make for less stress. And I think we can be confident in saying stress can cause depression which can cause suicide. Increase pay, more paid vacation for everyone, and lots of perks and free stuff. The only problem is I don't think companies are going to go with that option as it would be very costly.

Lufthansa's pilots are already overpaid, and there are countless studies that show an increase in income does not increase happiness after a certain threshold that almost all pilots at LH are long past.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 183):
You are throwing up false arguments in my opinion.

If I have the flu I am ill and probably should not be flying. If I am depressed I am ill and should not be flying. I can be cured.

There is no 100% fool proof solution, but that does not mean something should not be done.

If I re-word what you said to ...

---
So pilots should not have the right to be sick, or that regular physical testing should allow us to predict future performance with a large degree of accuracy, or even that the scrupulous and oppressive scrutiny of pilots health is going to help weed out the element of risk rather than help them hide it even further?
---

So perhaps we should just throw out all testing, since even physicals can miss things that might cause an unexpected death or impairment while flying. If you take the stigma of mental health out of the picture you are left with just another condition and an imperfect system to help screen for possible issues.

Slight problem here the flu is a real detectable virus which you can detect and diagnose with certainty. Mental health is not even remotely close to that.

We should try to improve testing but mental health is not anywhere remotely even close to being anything like diagnosing a viral/parasite/bacterial infection.

Fix the door logic and you can mitigate the leaky mental health screen.
 
photchan
Posts: 7
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:40 pm

It's been a very long time since I last logged on to A.net, its good to be back but I wish it wasn't under these circumstances. We all share a love for flying, and indeed most of us fly very often so my heart goes out to all those families affected by this senseless tragedy.

I've been pondering a couple of questions;

1) It's likely that the same co-pilot/pilot flew DUS-BCN together just prior and that this was a turnaround flight. My question is if it was the co-pilot's intent to crash the plane, why on the return sector?, why not when they were flying DUS-BCN - any way of knowing whether the captain left to use the washroom on the outbound? If the pilot did, then perhaps it can maybe eliminate a premeditated plan - perhaps the co-pilot just snapped or there was a medical reason that allowed him to "breathe normally" but not be in full control of his senses?

2) Has this crew flown together before, and would it be possible for the captain to have noticed any changes or differences in the co-pilots behavior during the outbound sector?

2) How do they know that the co-pilot changed the autopilot settings - I believe that they havent found/extracted the FDR data yet - how are they so certain?

3) Is there reduced liability for airlines in the case of terrorism/willful intent to crash the plane vs for example shoddy maintenance?
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 185):
t is common sense, if just before, LH CEO came out to say that the pilot was totally good to Fly, no indications whatsoever and now is saying our remaining pilots are the best in the world. They just run after the investigation to confirm anything.

There are thousands of reasons why he could have so few hours. He could have signed up with a part time contract to start, he could have been sick with another illness during the time.

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