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ManuCH
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 109):
You would never have a chance to enter a pilot training programme as it should be relatively easy to pick up, especially untreated.....

Not at all. Some kinds of depression can't be spotted if the patient isn't willing to admit it. These things will always slip through the cracks.
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 128):
I'm just warning that making depression trigger a lifetime ban on flying is going increase the risk of pilots with undiagnosed and untreated depression flying, not reduce it.

There are certain jobs that people diagnosed with Clinical Depression, that are taking medication and receiving professional counseling should not be engaged in. Pilot is one of them. Sorry to disagree. A pilot with CD, and meds for it cannot be flying unless total disclosure is made mandatory and the airline has a program to accommodate such a pilot.

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 128):
Yes, it can. More to the point, never having had depression is no guarantee that you won't get it one day. Even more to the point, a diagnosis of depression isn't even a very good predictor of suicide, and the vast majority of people with depression do NOT commit suicide.

15% of those diagnosed with Clinical Depression will commit suicide. Of those diagnosed with their first episode of CD, their chances of having a second episode are 50% and once a second episode has ocurred, the chances of having a third episode are 70%. If this person already had what appears to be a major episode while in training, LH really screwed up here as regular monitoring should have been required and questions asked about wether he was fit to continue in their program. Somebody decided he was, today we see the results. And while yes, this is not typical, it´s a known risk. So the question may be, how much risk is the flying public willing to take when a person with a clearly, diagnosed mental illness is sitting up front? A condition that is known to have a suicide as one of its consequences in not a small percentage of those diagnosed with it.

Now, maybe people here are confusing being a bit sad or going over a rough patch with Clinical Depression and that is a common mistake but they are not the same at all. I am talking about major, severe, clinical depression.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 130):
Some people may feel sad or stressed, others may feel suicidal or violent. I don't think everyone with depression should be tarnished with the same brush, but I do think that if a pilot or prospective pilot has a history of mental illness, this should be gone through and evaluated with a fine tooth comb in order to ascertain whether or not he or she is a risk.

Totally agree with you.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 149):
Germanwings properly screened the co-pilot before and during his employment, and on whether the airline should have had a policy requiring two or more people in its cockpits at all times during a flight."

Obviously somebody dropped the ball.

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 184):
and a blanket ban on anyone with a diagnosis of depression from flying a commercial aircraft would be a strong incentive to secrecy, as well as being ineffective.

Again, I disagree. Piloting is not a profession where you want someone diagnosed with Clinical Depression to be in the cockpit, unless special provisions are in place. Such as constant monitoring, periodic and constant evaluations, flying simple routes during non-stressful hrs. The Captain of tha AF A340 that went off the runway at Toronto was under a similar regime by AF due to a "mental" situation and he was limited to flying only the "short" daytime transcons. CDG-ATL, CDG-ORD-, CDG-NYC were his normal routes. The mere fact that most depressed pilots are not going to crash their airplanes, while true, it´s no guarantee they won´t. As we´ve just seen.

And I am sorry if this is not politically correct.
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 240):
At least my employer gets the information from the doctor if I'm fit for work or not. If I call in sick, my manager should not ask me what's wrong - it's not his business. All he needs to know that a person competent to evaluate my health has deemed me not fit for work.

I think the key here is that the law should be changed such that the doctor *has* to share with the airline that the employee is "not fit to fly". Of course without giving away any details (these are none of the employer's concern!).

Right now, it's up to the pilot to call the airline and tell them "hey, I'm not fit to fly". If this were automatic, I'm sure some problems could be avoided (although I won't speculate on whether it would have changed anything in this case).
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
Alfons
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:14 pm

I'm sorry to say but with all the information about this guy popping up left and right (in case they are right), heads must roll at Lufthansa, and the first head is the one of the CEO.

A guy with a medical record at Lufthansa saying "needs regular psychological tests", with little flight hours in 18 months time and regular professional timeouts for psychological treatment, you're not putting that guy in full responsibility of a 70 tons airplane with 150 souls in the back, flying at 38000 feets at 850km/h, ALONE.

I know that airline employees here won't agree to me but I don't care, I seriously think about not letting my family take any airplane in the next 18 months until all airlines optimized their pilot assessments, which will for sure happen now.

Lufthansa made some very very big mistakes here.

Alfons
 
MJackson
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 10):
No. Terrorism is violence/terror used to affect political change. We have no evidence that this was such an act.
If, it turns out to be confirmed that the copilot did this on purpose, then it is murder.
If it turns out there there was a political motivation - like 911 - then it is terrorism.

Here in the U.S., it is merely workplace violence. I will not argue your definition of terrorism, as it is the most common (first definition when searched). That being said, when an individuals personal motivation(s) leads them to take a plane full of 'innocent' people/civilians (anyone not acting in an official military role) and slams it into the side of a mountain, it will certainly cause a state of fear (Terror, by definition) among the civilians onboard and in the minds of those hearing about the tragedy. The results of such actions are derived from a person(s) without the mental capacity or compassion for life. Plain and simple. I am not a PCer. You can play with any definition you desire. The actions of the 9/11 terrorists and the pilot in this case are identical. They took an airplane and brutally killed/murdered everyone onboard ...... needlessly. Cowardly. You claim that the 9/11 case was politically motivated. Religiously motivated is more likely. I believe that any person(s) that will take human life in this manner are mentally unstable (putting it lightly). Whether for religious reasons or personal reasons. They are not 'right' in the head. They are evil. These types of people will continue to conduct acts of terror (a state of fear). Folks can play with the PC definitions all they want. BTW, the 9/11 pilots also crashed those airplanes with all people onboard .... on purpose.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 67):
Apart from what was found he seemed to have had a severe episode of depression during his pilot training (hence the break) to the point that it is in his file with the German civil aviation office.
If you ask me, noone who ever was diagnosed with depression should be given a pilot license or bus or taxi license for that matter.

If all diagnosed with depression would be banned from work because of the danger, you would be surprised at how many people suffer this illness in silence. That being said the 6 months drop off from work, and other stuff is a big NO NO in anyones with expertise in psychological background. I good interview and possibly 3 or 4 sessions would expose the dangers of a suicidal/angry patient.

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 69):
Because there is no such place.

Sorry to say but there is a far worse place than hell and the copilots family and the victims are experiencing it..

Quoting AR385 (Reply 76):
Wrongfully diagnosed mental illness or a bad treatment protocol, can result in very dangerous, unforseen consequences.

Agree and as such we are still in diapers.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 101):
They are ridiculed for mental disease though, as if it were "their fault".

Depression affected people have an illness, and as such they are not guilty of having it, but they are guilty of not having it treated properly and also the people who surround them, seldomly come forward and expose the problem, in this case I think a lot of people just moved along and ignored the problem.

There is no failsafe way of protecting the cockpit if one of the crew wants you dead, hence the security must be provided on the ground not with redundant door systems or locks etc....

I really can't think of a more tragic accident than this.... this guy had a depression with exogenous precipitators and it should have been caught earlier...

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 255):
That being said the 6 months drop off from work, and other stuff is a big NO NO in anyones with expertise in psychological background. I good interview and possibly 3 or 4 sessions would expose the dangers of a suicidal/angry patient.

Exactly, and that has been my experience with the people I deal with that have such issues. I don´t buy the "it´s very difficult to predict" idea. It´s just as you said. A good interview with a specialist, a few sessions and you will know. Any good clinical psychologist would agree.

[Edited 2015-03-27 08:42:12]
 
orbital
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 256):
Exactly, and that has been my experience with the people I deal with that have such issues. I don´t buy the "it´s very difficult to predict" idea. It´s just as you said. A good interview with a specialist, a few sessions and you will know.

I am myself wondering if this specific fear is what actually precipitated this terrible event. We've been told that his personnel file recommended repeated screening, but as of yet have no idea how often, if at all, Lufthansa has followed up on the screening. If they've been following up, he would surely know that he didn't have long before his career was at the least, suspended indefinitely if not over.

As well as Lufthansa maintains their airplanes, I can't really imagine them forgetting to follow up on their pilots. But, I'm sure those details will certainly be made public in due course.
 
Rara
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 245):
Then a pilot will be able to hide an illness, and you are accepting that risk.

Of course. The alternative is that people may choose not to seek medical attention at all. Scarcely a more promising prospect.

Medical confidentiality exists for a very practical reason. It enables people to seek medical attention without an a priori fear that their very doing so may have negative consequences.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:39 pm

Quoting Alfons (Reply 253):
I'm sorry to say but with all the information about this guy popping up left and right (in case they are right), heads must roll at Lufthansa, and the first head is the one of the CEO.

A guy with a medical record at Lufthansa saying "needs regular psychological tests", with little flight hours in 18 months time and regular professional timeouts for psychological treatment, you're not putting that guy in full responsibility of a 70 tons airplane with 150 souls in the back, flying at 38000 feets at 850km/h, ALONE.

I know that airline employees here won't agree to me but I don't care, I seriously think about not letting my family take any airplane in the next 18 months until all airlines optimized their pilot assessments, which will for sure happen now.

Lufthansa made some very very big mistakes here.

Alfons

That is how the law works.Only if the flight surgeon cancels his medical, LH can act. If another doctor declares him unfit to work, they do not even get to know why. If he declared fit again, they do not now the reason for the leave either.
 
Gazdon121
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:40 pm

The French has just said there are 400-600 body parts located and no bodies yet at present are intact.
Full credit to the French authority authority's for the quick response and what brave people having to see this devastation
 
Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 247):
I'm not arguing that

If you're saying that people who have had depression in the past should never be allowed to fly again, you absolutely are.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 247):
Would you have razorblades or a gun laying around a depressed person, even if probably cured?

Yes. Why not? Why should someone who no longer has a condition be permanently subject to restrictions that would apply to someone who presently has that condition?

Quoting redflyer (Reply 248):
Some are. Some aren't.

Such as?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Utah744
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 59):
even nose the plane over on short final


Exactly! A plane with a yoke just push over then put your knees up and nobody has the strength to override the nose down. I'm not sure of the flight control system on Airbus but the same may be possible. Then there is also turning off the fuel swi ches on short final. The plane would be out of the restart envelope and crash. So the last 100 posts about gimmicking the cockpit door do nothing. There are somethings in life that you just have to trust ie. heart surgeon, etc.
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 258):
Of course. The alternative is that people may choose not to seek medical attention at all. Scarcely a more promising prospect.

That makes no sense to me.

Anyone who would not release their records, and agree to regular mental and physical evaluations that are open to the company, would not be hired.

If they manage to hide a condition from the regular checkups, then so be it. I think that would be rare.
 
mika
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 222):
Really on a short flight there should be no reason for the flight crew to leave the flight deck. Just make sure you have been to the toilet before departure.

This is ridiculous. I for example am a person who drinks s*itloads of water every day, and hence i need to dispose of it more frequently than the average Joe. So just because someone decided that i "should have been to the toilet before departure" i'd have to fly fighting my own body back?
 
aerobus12
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:54 pm

Is it possible to open the cockpit door from the inside when it is in "lock"? Could it be that it has been set to "lock" pre-flight, and that Lubitz suffered an incapacitation while the captain was out, commenced a descent out of panic, and was then unable to let the captain in?
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting aerobus12 (Reply 265):
Is it possible to open the cockpit door from the inside when it is in "lock"? Could it be that it has been set to "lock" pre-flight, and that Lubitz suffered an incapacitation while the captain was out, commenced a descent out of panic, and was then unable to let the captain in?

Yes, just move the door switch to UNLOCK.
 
mmo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 202):
Why would you then put (formerly) depressed people into positions where they can think "what if I end it all right now?" and have the chance to act on it and take innocent lifes with them?

Well, I can play devil's advocate with respect to alcohol. If what you are saying is ban pilots who have ever had depression then all you are doing is turning back the clock and making more people go "underground" if they are depressed. It was the same situation 20 years ago with respect to alcoholism. But that mindset has been changed and progress has been made with people who have a chemical dependency. I am sure the same is true for people with depression. Tthey can be treated and "cured". Why should they be penalized and lose their job???

Quoting photchan (Reply 207):
Doesn't ADS-B just indicate the altitude/airspeed/location etc - yes we can see the plane is descending rapidly - but we don't know whether this is a flight control input or whether the co-pilot has reprogrammed the autopilot? Am i misunderstanding something?

You are many things. ADS-B when introduced indicates just what you thought. However, as time went by several enhancements were implemented. One of the changes was the Heading Selector (Heading SEL), what and the FL Sel. So, in this case the F/O pulled the FL and turned it down to a lower altitude and the final turn was down to 100', I think the read out showed 98'.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
D L X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting Alfons (Reply 253):
Lufthansa made some very very big mistakes here.

I am beginning to agree with this but, with regards to the following:

Quoting Alfons (Reply 253):
heads must roll at Lufthansa, and the first head is the one of the CEO.

would that solve the problem, or would that make you feel better?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 263):
Anyone who would not release their records, and agree to regular mental and physical evaluations that are open to the company, would not be hired.

Which would be illegal in many jurisdictions, including the U.S. Pilots are, however, subject to regular medical examinations to maintain their ATPL or equivalent.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:10 pm

I was thinking. Maybe the cockpit door can have two positions, allowing pilots to go to the toilet securely:

The first position is the standard position where passengers can use the toilet by door 1L (if there is one). The second position allows the pilots to push open the door to just past the toilet door and lock it, so that the toilet is now enclosed in the secure cockpit area. This means flexible use of the toilet without the pilot ever being locked out.
Base: BRU
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:12 pm

Hi All,

As this thread has gotten long part 12 has been created and can be found here
Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 27 2015 in Civil Aviation) .

All posts made after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club

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