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lpdal
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Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:36 am

Part 10 reached 200+ replies, so here is Part 11.

Link to Part 10: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 10 (by LPDAL Mar 26 2015 in Civil Aviation)

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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 211):
What about a dozen or so pax, running a meal cart down the aisle into the door? Would this had been enough? Ala UA 93? Ore are the doors too strong now?

"A dozen or so pax, running a meal cart down the aisle"

Hmmmm....

Do you know how narrow the aisle in an A320 is?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 224):
Once the captain was done going to the bathroom and was trying to get
Back to the cockpit, he surely must have been horrified as to the turn of events.

So, what if he acted above 10k feet and did the unimaginable?

Purposefully cause an explosive decompression and thus automatically unlocking door?

Sorry if this is just silly or not feasible.

If that happened the CVR would have picked up the accompaning sounds.

I can't imagine a pilot locked out of a cockpit trying to cause a decompression in order to get the cockpit door to unlock... How would they do it? Bust out a window with a crash axe? Get a portable oxygen bottle to explode next to a window by somehow damaging it?
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:47 am

At a young age, after 9/11, I though to myself "What if the pilots are the terrorists?" "How would you stop them?"

Not saying the co-pilot was a terrorist, but I guess I kind of got my answer now.

R.I.P to the victims.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting RogerMurdock (Reply 3):
Seems like with the recent comments on the last thread this site has moved on to blaming the Jews.

Huh? The supposition was that the Lubitz's religion was not being released because the authorities did NOT want religion to be a factor, and even the fact that Lubitz might be Jewish was pure conjecture.

Please be very careful before injecting such statements!
 
Pbb152
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting RogerMurdock (Reply 3):
Seems like with the recent comments on the last thread this site has moved on to blaming the Jews. Typical for that part of the world, I guess.

Trust me, I am just waiting for the folks who blame the USA for this. Not on this site, but the conspiracy theorists whose ridiculous opinions will be picked up by the worldwide media. Just like the MH flight that was supposedly shot down by the US military over Diego Garcia. Those with an agenda will figure out a way to blame the USA for this.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:18 am

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 4):

Not saying the co-pilot was a terrorist, but I guess I kind of got my answer now.

He absolutely was a terrorist.

He just used an aircraft as a weapon and killed 150 people.

If that isn't an act of terror, I don't know what is.

[Edited 2015-03-26 19:19:21]
 
RogerMurdock
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Please be very careful before injecting such statements!

Go back and read 223. It was reckless conjecture- the context and insinuation of the comment was that it was being hidden because of a "suspicious" global conspiracy, a long established anti-Semitic trope.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting Pbb152 (Reply 6):
Trust me, I am just waiting for the folks who blame the USA for this. Not on this site, but the conspiracy theorists whose ridiculous opinions will be picked up by the worldwide media. Just like the MH flight that was supposedly shot down by the US military over Diego Garcia. Those with an agenda will figure out a way to blame the USA for this.

Why feed the trolls then? It is ridiculous to bring up any kind of American butthurt in a thread of this type, regardless of the reason. If anyone out there wonders why folks find our citizens annoying, this is among the reasons.

From previous thread:

Quoting hivue (Reply 192):
Actually probably just dialed in on the MCP. I agree it's important info. Pretty solid evidence that the FO didn't become incapacitated somehow.

Agreed. This has been observed by folks familiar with the A320 for several days now - the flight profile speaks to deliberate autoflight commands the whole way through, not a fantastic sequence of accidental inputs.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 199):
There are a variety of depressions. However, among those diagnosed with clinical depression, 15% commit suicide. So IT IS a dangerous illness and something to pay attention too if somebody you care for is diganosed with it. Among those diagnosed, 50% will have a second episode and once you have a second episode, the odds of having a third episode rise to 70%.

There is a debate wether current antidepressant on the market actually work or not, SRIs. But apparently they do work for some people, along with therapy and counseling.

These are very important points. There is no one-size-fits-all treatment solution in this arena. Some people can get by with SSRI (they are not as effective as Big Pharma wants us to believe), some people benefit from focused CBT, and some people need a tangible change in their lives. That was certainly the case for me - my depressive symptoms ended once I successfully initiated and completed a divorce. But the key is that people who have already been identified to be in trouble receive continued management and treatment of some type. The vast majority of people cannot get through depressive symptoms on their own, no matter how successfully they are fooling those around them.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
The vast majority of people cannot get through depressive symptoms on their own, no matter how successfully they are fooling those around them.

Exactly. If the diagnose is Clinical Depression, there is no "Come on, get out of bed" Or, "Take it like a man and get over it", "There are many fish in the sea." etc. Clinical Depression is a chemical imbalance in your brain and again, I can´t reiterate this enough:

Fifteen percent of those that are diagnosed with it will end up ending their own lives. It´s really serious. It´s also recurring. And as Aaron747 says, conventional treatment, current SRIs and counseling are the best bet. But SRIs while the darling of depression medications for over a decade now are estimated to work only on 65% of cases.

I don´t think Clinical Depression was the case here. But, if you have someone in your family that has been diagnosed with Depression, please be aware it´s not an issue of being lazy and wanting to spend your entire day sitting in the couch watching jeopardy and eating chips. They need support and help.

I´ll say it again. This situation is not your typical suicide of someone with CD.
 
rcair1
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
He absolutely was a terrorist.

He just used an aircraft as a weapon and killed 150 people.

If that isn't an act of terror, I don't know what is.

No. Terrorism is violence/terror used to affect political change. We have no evidence that this was such an act.
If, it turns out to be confirmed that the copilot did this on purpose, then it is murder.
If it turns out there there was a political motivation - like 911 - then it is terrorism.

It is certainly terrible, and it was likely terrifying for the pilot trying to get back into the cockpit.
But that is true for many 'terrifying' accidents/acts every day. They are not terrorism.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 261):
To prevent people from getting the code from the crew each member can choose to erase their device rendering the override useless. That way it takes many good people to override the door and only one person to prevent abuse by erasing their key device.

Meanwhile, the pilot is in a nose dive and the plane is plunging to the ground at 20000ft/min and the wings rip off.

I'm not against coming up with ideas but will this solve the problem being addressed? A suicidal pilot can easily kill everyone no matter what we do

(I realize this pilot didn't nose dive the aircraft but he probably would have if this mechanism was in place)
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Meanwhile, the pilot is in a nose dive and the plane is plunging to the ground at 20000ft/min and the wings rip off.

I'm not against coming up with ideas but will this solve the problem being addressed? A suicidal pilot can easily kill everyone no matter what we do

(I realize this pilot didn't nose dive the aircraft but he probably would have if this mechanism was in place)

Why he wouldn't know if they were using it to open the door. Not to mention he didn't nosedive the plane and you could assemble the key very quickly if the crew was trained to use it.

Plus it still solves the problem of what happens if someone gets into the cockpit who wants to crash or control the plane if they put it into lockdown then you can't get in with the current system. There is the worse problem of what happens if they don't want to just nose dive.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:53 am

If the evidence so far suggests that a FO deliberately caused a crash of this passenger airplane, then indeed they are a terrorist. Much like terrorists, he wanted to go out in a spectacular way, getting massive world-wide attention, to get revenge on his real to him 'enemies'.

I don't know how one can reduce these risks. Many of those with mental health issues are very good at covering it up. Along with many legal protections as to medical and mental health privacy, it makes it difficult to see the signs of even if do, to actually take action to prevent such acts. There is only so much money and working technology one could apply with airplanes to keep them flying safely even in such an extremely rare event as with this flight. Even if a F/A was in the cockpit, when one of the cockpit crew were out, would it have prevented such an event from happening ? I doubt if.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
We don't know what this guy's situation was yet, but it will factor one way or another in any report.

It looks to me as a manic episode, reaching psychotic breakdown levels, of someone who went off his meds suddenly. But you are right. We´ll see. I am only speculating and do not wish to be flamed for my post etc, it is only my opinion.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Did you not read the notice at the start of the thread? What a load of bollocks, knock it off man.

He´s pissed because in another thread , 7,8 or 9 someone told him to stop with the the conspiracy idiotic theories, so now he´s just trolling. Ignore him.

[Edited 2015-03-26 19:57:29]
 
dave1234
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 87):
A sudden medical issue cannot explain the locking out of the Captain, or the setting of the plane for descent towards the Alps.



If a sudden medical issue caused him to become delirius and then pass out, then maybe he suffered nonsensical thoughts like: 'There must be a depressurization in the cockpit causing me to be this muddled... I must get the plane down and prevent anyone else entering the danger zone until the re-pressurization brings me round again'
 
heyjoojoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting RogerMurdock (Reply 3):
Seems like with the recent comments on the last thread this site has moved on to blaming the Jews. Typical for that part of the world, I guess.

Gosh, I certainly hope that this thread has done that. In any case, people really need to stop making bizarre assertions like that. We deal with a real threat from Jihadist terrorism. It's not a myth but it's real. This is why when we hear these tragic stories about gunmen going on shooting rampages, or planes disappearing (and/or crashing) it is certainly reasonable to expect that they're caused by the former. Because our world includes this evil.
 
SamH123
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 246):
A home where this gentleman lived a little bit to long.
Most males age 28 would, if they had their own apartments, prefer to live by themselves and not with mum and dad.
----------------------------------------------------

Someone who learned to fly with Andreas said "He was a lot of fun, even though he was perhaps sometimes a bit quiet."

I find that comment a bit surprising, because 'sometimes a bit quiet' is quite a strong statement about someone who just died (normally people talk about the positives in someone recently deceased), it doesn't really correlate with being a lot of fun.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting dave1234 (Reply 19):
If a sudden medical issue caused him to become delirius and then pass out, then maybe he suffered nonsensical thoughts like: 'There must be a depressurization in the cockpit causing me to be this muddled... I must get the plane down and prevent anyone else entering the danger zone until the re-pressurization brings me round again'

For the 100th time, that still doesn't account for a speed-managed descent with the IAS fixed at barber pole. We should be past the point of mindless conjecture now (oops, where am I again?).
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting dave1234 (Reply 19):
If a sudden medical issue caused him to become delirius and then pass out, then maybe he suffered nonsensical thoughts like: 'There must be a depressurization in the cockpit causing me to be this muddled... I must get the plane down and prevent anyone else entering the danger zone until the re-pressurization brings me round again'

Maybe the FO had a trained monkey with him, who wanted to kill everyone?
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:26 am

I´ll say it again. This situation is not your typical suicide of someone with CD.

******************************

I agree. I have depression and think of suicide frequently, but never killing anyone else. To do what he did, especially at such a young age, something else had to be at work in his mind. There had to be some anger.
 
freqflyerNYC
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:31 am

I think everyone understands the dangers of clinical depression, whether or not the 15% suicide ratio mentioned above is accurate (it seems high to me). But, sadly, suicide is an all too common occurrence, and is just as likely to involve a pilot as it is an individual from any other walk of life. But why the need to take so many innocent lives? Murder-suicides on this scale just don't make any sense. Not that suicide of any kind is a rational act, but to murder 149 innocent people in the process of ending your own life is unfathomable.
 
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IslandRob
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting RogerMurdock (Reply 3):
Seems like with the recent comments on the last thread this site has moved on to blaming the Jews. Typical for that part of the world, I guess.

This site? The way I see it, there are only a few crackpots even discussing it (pro or on), Let it go. -ir

[Edited 2015-03-26 20:43:02]
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:42 am

Looks like someone I know knew the 2 Iranian reporters that perished. So sad, they were sports reporters covering Iran's national football team playing in Spain.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/two-ira...c_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=tw via @YahooSports

Team Melli had an upset 2-0 victory vs Chile today. They would have been so proud. RIP
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:42 am

Here is at least some informed discussion on the "take someone with me suicidal person."

We often don’t think much about the suicide angle in the aftermath of mass shootings, but a high percentage of these offenders had been depressed, angry, unstable, and unhappy with their lives. Yet instead of just taking themselves out, they decide to take others with them. What used to be an inward act has increasingly become outward.

I call this coercive suicide. We don’t yet know Aguilar’s motive, but typically suicidal mass murderers have the added need to punish someone, to make a public show of their death as a “lesson,”


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201401/coercive-suicide-and-mass-murder
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:49 am

Quoting Cal Tech

Sorry to hear about your loss. The other poster is probably reacting as I have, with anger towards the co-pilot for taking 149 other lives who wanted to live. Innocent children too. If you have to take your own, do it alone, do not hurt anymore people.

Completely agree.

Does anyone think those suffering mental illness belong in the same sentence with this guy?

Assuming he did in fact intentionally kill 150 people why shouldn’t he rot in hell?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 14):
Why he wouldn't know if they were using it to open the door.

What? Of course the pilot would know. They would teach these procedures to all aircrew, not all aircrew minus future suicidal pilots. If your system was in place the suicidal pilot most likely would have nose dived

Quoting tomlee (Reply 14):
Not to mention he didn't nosedive the plane and you could assemble the key very quickly if the crew was trained to use it.

And what if he did nosedive? Again, had this system been in place, he probably would have, not did a leisurely decent while waiting for the people in the back to open the door

Quoting tomlee (Reply 14):
Plus it still solves the problem of what happens if someone gets into the cockpit who wants to crash or control the plane if they put it into lockdown then you can't get in with the current system.

How would this scenario even unfold?? A hijacker somehow gets past the reinforced, locked door but everyone else can't, except now they can with your idea?

I'm not even opposed to your idea, I just don't see it as effective, at all. The situations where it would be useful are so few and far between I would wonder if it outweighs possible scenarios where it could be abused. I just don't see it. Most of your idea revolves around the idea that the pilots (with complete knowledge of this system) will simply and stupidly take a long time to descend to crash instead of, you know, nose diving to prevent the crew from coming in. I don't care how speedy your fingers are, I doubt you can punch in the code in a nose dive.

Not trying to be pessimistic with your idea, just realistic. We all should appreciate ideas as long as they are not knee jerk and people are willing to accept or reject ideas based on their merits. I don't see this as really solving anything
 
e195
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:53 am

I have read the last few threads

First off this is truly tragic and my heart goes out to all the families who have lost loved ones.

Could the FO have had a diabetic episode?
I am type one and have, once, fainted and come around breathing very heavily after wards
Could he have had an episode, in the confusion tried to open the door and hi the wrong thing?

Just a theory
 
OMP777X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 29):
I call this coercive suicide. We don’t yet know Aguilar’s motive, but typically suicidal mass murderers have the added need to punish someone, to make a public show of their death as a “lesson,”

While I would still call it a mass murder-suicide myself, I agree with the sentiment of the quoted text. I believe if what Lubitz is alleged to have done is true, he would have done it to punish people and to prove a point of some sort, which is why I believe he may have left behind some sort of a letter or document that explains the purpose of him inflicting such an atrocious act on his passengers and fellow crew members.

Best,

OMP777X
 
spacecadet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:03 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
If that isn't an act of terror, I don't know what is.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 16):
If the evidence so far suggests that a FO deliberately caused a crash of this passenger airplane, then indeed they are a terrorist.

We need to be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally careful about using that word. Terrorism is a very specific thing. It's political. It's instilling fear through violence to achieve a political goal. Throwing that word around so lazily is actually dangerous; that's how we get kneejerk reactions.

So far there's nothing to indicate that this guy was a terrorist. Being a mass murderer does not automatically make you a terrorist. Ted Bundy wasn't a terrorist, Charles Manson is not a terrorist. Calling them such actually elevates them; it gives them a purpose they didn't necessarily have.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 33):
I believe he may have left behind some sort of a letter or document that explains the purpose of him inflicting such an atrocious act on his passengers and fellow crew members.

Sure "may have"; but we don't really know this guy, so I don't see it very productive to enter into any speculation about him now or maybe ever. IMO all we can do is watch this story unfold to the extent that it does.
 
D L X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:10 am

Quoting E195 (Reply 32):
Could the FO have had a diabetic episode?
I am type one and have, once, fainted and come around breathing very heavily after wards
Could he have had an episode, in the confusion tried to open the door and hi the wrong thing?

When you had your diabetic episode, did you set the altitude to many thousands below your current altitude, and hit the lock button on the door?

The problem with medical alternative theories is that they are designed to absolve the pilot of the more likely scenario that also happens to not need extra explanation. It is the equivalent of seeing a horse, and asking "are we sure it's not a zebra that has been painted brown?"

Yes, it is possible that it is a zebra that has been painted brown. But it's most likely a horse. As in, it is almost definitely a horse.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
What? Of course the pilot would know. They would teach these procedures to all aircrew, not all aircrew minus future suicidal pilots. If your system was in place the suicidal pilot most likely would have nose dived

No you change the door system so it doesn't warn the pilot of an outside super override. And even if they did you ignoring the fact that the pilot in this case did not immediately and unrecoverable nose dive. The crew and all the passengers knew for minutes that they were going to die soon. (Horrible stuff basically)

This is also ignoring that maybe the pilot wants to hit a target instead of just immediately hit the ground. It also covers the case of an intruder taking over the cockpit.

Multi-crew unlock improves the clearly deficient system as it is without adding too much weigh, cost, or complex systems.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
And what if he did nosedive? Again, had this system been in place, he probably would have, not did a leisurely decent while waiting for the people in the back to open the door

He didn't nose dive though and a hijacking with a particular target may not nose dive either there may be precious minutes where the passengers and crew can attempt to re-take the cockpit. Are you suggesting we just give up?

Having two people in the cockpit doesn't solve the problem of an aggressor inside the cockpit especially if that person is a crew member as no one regularly expects their fellow crew to attack/kill them. With the existing lock your still screwed and I would like it if in the future people at least had a chance of saving their flight.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
How would this scenario even unfold?? A hijacker somehow gets past the reinforced, locked door but everyone else can't, except now they can with your idea?

I'm not even opposed to your idea, I just don't see it as effective, at all. The situations where it would be useful are so few and far between I would wonder if it outweighs possible scenarios where it could be abused. I just don't see it. Most of your idea revolves around the idea that the pilots (with complete knowledge of this system) will simply and stupidly take a long time to descend to crash instead of, you know, nose diving to prevent the crew from coming in. I don't care how speedy your fingers are, I doubt you can punch in the code in a nose dive.

Not trying to be pessimistic with your idea, just realistic. We all should appreciate ideas as long as they are not knee jerk and people are willing to accept or reject ideas based on their merits. I don't see this as really solving anything

Scenario is easy now with the not effective two people at all times in the cockpit, once one of the pilots leaves either the crew member in with the pilot remaining or the pilot in the seat can incapacitate the other and lock out the door. The other pilot can't unlock the door and neither can the rest of the crew. If you had a system that allowed for outside override that could not be disabled but requires many crew members to interact with the door system they could attempt to fight back.

A hijacker cannot use this same system as any one crew member can disable their key device making it impossible to override the system without a certain number of valid devices. Because no crew member knows the actual code you can't force it out of them. There is a very low chance a terrorist would be able use the system without enough crew members erasing their codes as procedure would dictate.

You don't even bother reading my proposed system which is why you don't notice the countermeasures I already thought up of. Your assuming every suicide is going to be a nose dive but MH370, Germanwings did not end their flights in a rapid manner.

This door lock override system as it stands is clearly deficient and I'm offering a simple system that doesn't add significant weight or cost to the air plane while covering the problems that clearly DO and just did happen. All it does is give a good crew/cabin a chance against a malicious person who by some way as it clearly can happen gets control of the flight deck.

[Edited 2015-03-26 21:17:36]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 37):
No you change the door system so it doesn't warn the pilot of an outside super override. And even if they did you ignoring the fact that the pilot in this case did not immediately and unrecoverable nose dive. The crew and all the passengers knew for minutes that they were going to die soon. (Horrible stuff basically)

I know he didn't immediately nose dive, for the hundredth time, he did not have to. Had this system existed don't you think he would have?

Quoting tomlee (Reply 37):
This is also ignoring that maybe the pilot wants to hit a target instead of just immediately hit the ground. It also covers the case of an intruder taking over the cockpit.
Quoting tomlee (Reply 37):
He didn't nose dive though and a hijacking with a particular target may not nose dive either there may be precious minutes where the passengers and crew can attempt to re-take the cockpit.

Valid point

Quoting tomlee (Reply 37):
He didn't nose dive though and a hijacking with a particular target may not nose dive either there may be precious minutes where the passengers and crew can attempt to re-take the cockpit.

I don't see a pilot slowly descending when the pilot knows this system is in place

Quoting tomlee (Reply 37):
Are you suggesting we just give up?

Yes, of course. Any disagreement with an idea means I want everyone to give up. Come on, I even said we should brainstorm. We shouldn't do the opposite of giving up, ie come up with knee jerk ideas and ignore any criticism of it

Quoting tomlee (Reply 37):
Your assuming every suicide is going to be a nose dive but MH370, German Air did not end their flights in a rapid manner.

Oh so the cause of MH370 has been determined? Anyway, do you honestly think the pilot would have descended in this slow manner if there was a way for them to get in?

As I said before, I'm not actually opposed to the idea, I just think you're overplaying it. I didn't think of the suicidal 9/11 pilot style scenario, and I suppose there is a slight chance the pilot would for some bizarre reason try to commit suicide slowly when he/she knows there's a way for the door to be opened. As long as there aren't any downsides/exploits for abuse and terrorism, I don't see why this couldn't be implemented.

One last word before I go to bed, do not assume that the pilot would have behaved the same exact way had this system been in place, and think really hard about ways to abuse this system. I find terrorism unlikely, but I also find it even less likely that we can suicide-pilot-proof aircraft. Like it or not, pilots can kill you, easily, with your system or not
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
I know he didn't immediately nose dive, for the hundredth time, he did not have to. Had this system existed don't you think he would have?

We dont understand his motivations at all yet, so this talk is mostly groundless and circular. It is equally possible he wanted it to look a certain way, and that's why he managed the IAS all the way down, to avoid overspeed and inflight breakup. Anyone who has gone through A320 groundschool knows the aircraft is very slippery, and will not retain safe airspeeds in an unmanaged descent.
 
OMP777X
Posts: 457
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 35):
Sure "may have"; but we don't really know this guy, so I don't see it very productive to enter into any speculation about him now or maybe ever. IMO all we can do is watch this story unfold to the extent that it does.

I'm specifically referring to this potentially being the "clue" that was just reportedly discovered by investigators at his residence, I'm not blindly speculating at random here like some people have. Surely I am going to wait for the investigators to disclose what exactly it was that they've found before I make up my mind for certain, but I am entitled to having my own personal hunch on the matter based on what has been reported. I don't proclaim that I have any specific answers here at the moment, but according to the press the "clue" is not a suicide note. IMHO, whatever it may be will hopefully point toward his motive for committing mass murder.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/67...-at-home-of-copilot-andreas-lubitz

Best,

OMP777X
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 40):
I don't proclaim that I have any specific answers here at the moment, but according to the press the "clue" is not a suicide note. IMHO, whatever it may be will hopefully point toward his motive for committing mass murder.

Whatever was found, was taken for testing.

I'm guessing it is some sort of drug.
 
mwscan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:39 am

Possibly a naive question, but would it be possible to design an autopilot system that can't be programmed to fly into terrain?
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):

We don't know what suicidal people would do. 9/11 was a suicide attack wasn't it. This system would improve the possibility of saving flights in these situations with very minor lightweight un-hackable technological changes.

I'm not ignoring your criticism I came here to see what criticism there is I'm writing a technical design document right now to formalize the idea and maybe someone in industry will notice it to improve safety. I work in biology, mechanical engineering, and computers so I'm not in aerospace industry but I think it is a good idea especially if it could save lives. As such I think it should be made known freely.

A kneejerk reaction is saying having two people in the cockpit at once somehow makes this problem go away because it doesn't.

MH370 isn't conclusive but it will take forever if ever to find the flight data recorder and isn't it awfully convenient that the CVR which everyone knows only lasts a few hours would be useless. You did say people may have an intimate understanding of the system and my concept is supposed to be security that is just secure not security through obscurity.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:45 am

Quoting mwscan (Reply 42):
Possibly a naive question, but would it be possible to design an autopilot system that can't be programmed to fly into terrain?

Difficult you could program one (forward terrain collision detection) but this assumes the flight crew won't find a way of causing the computer system to break in some way that cedes control back to the pilots.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
We dont understand his motivations at all yet, so this talk is mostly groundless and circular. It is equally possible he wanted it to look a certain way, and that's why he managed the IAS all the way down, to avoid overspeed and inflight breakup. Anyone who has gone through A320 groundschool knows the aircraft is very slippery, and will not retain safe airspeeds in an unmanaged descent.

Maybe he thought the flight recorders would not survive the impact the FDR data unit has not been found yet because of the shear force of the impact sending it somewhere random hopefully.

All my proposed change does is address an obviously abusable door locking system to provide a chance for crew/passengers to fight back while maintaining the original purpose of stopping a 9/11 hijack situation. If nothing is changes regarding that door lock system copy cats may crop up with increasing frequency too so the time to act is now.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:45 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 40):

Oh! I didn't know about that. This story is moving too fast for me. I apologize.

A speculation I had made earlier was that it had something to do with his relationship with this woman. She might just have explained the real deal to the cops when they sat down with her. Or, yea it might be a note. It might have been a letter telling him that he was HIV positive.

I hope the officials are forthcoming and we find out, but there is this woman's life involved here and she shouldn't be thrown to the wolves.
 
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Miami
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:58 am

For whatever it's worth. The co-pilot was a Muslim convert.


Please do not bring religion into this. I'm only repeating what officials have said.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting mwscan (Reply 42):
Possibly a naive question, but would it be possible to design an autopilot system that can't be programmed to fly into terrain?
Ground Collision Avoidance System ‘Saves’ First F-16 In Syria
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3532
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:04 am

Do not know much yet, but some German News outlets are reporting he was a muslim convrt,

 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:14 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 47):

This assumes the pilot isn't trying actively to crash the plane. It might delay them which is good, giving crew members time to override the door with my multikey override proposal but if they really want the plane to crash they could eventually do it by fuel starvation or some other means.

It again is there is a deficiency in the door. In 9/11 the door was too weak and insecure and couldn't stop intruders from gaining access to the flight deck. In this case the door was too strong and offered no means for a good cabin crew/passengers in overriding the door even though they had a significant amount of time to act. A balance is basically required so no single insane person (terrorists are insane too) can take over the plane no matter what side of the door they are on. I basically want to raise the bar you would have to have the entire plane crew to be suicidal for the system to break down which is highly unlikely.

Also if your wondering if a 9/11 situation occurred crew members could erase their key devices making the override useless keeping the flight deck secure. For a suicidal pilot to stop the system from working they would have to attack crew members in the cabin which would force the situation into a 9/11 type security incident which would have the remaining pilot lock the door and enough crew members erasing their key devices.
 
columba
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
He absolutely was a terrorist.

He just used an aircraft as a weapon and killed 150 people.

If that isn't an act of terror, I don't know what is.

A mass murderer......it is not suicide when you kill 149 people with
 
columba
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:27 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 48):
Do not know much yet, but some German News outlets are reporting he was a muslim convrt,

Seems to be fake I have not seen it here on any news site.........the largest tabloid discusses the lost of his hospital records
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 46):

For whatever it's worth. The co-pilot was a Muslim convert.


Please do not bring religion into this. I'm only repeating what officials have said.

1. Respectfully, you can't say "He's a Muslim convert - but don't discuss it!"
2. It may be incorrect.
3. If true, it might actually be unrelated to his true motives.

However, I agree with you in principle that it would be nice to get a more complete picture before people start getting worked up over it.

-Dave
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:32 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 46):
For whatever it's worth. The co-pilot was a Muslim convert.


Please do not bring religion into this

You just did.

-Mir
 
SANChaser
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:36 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 11

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:34 am

Such a horrible tragedy. I think closure for families will be difficult to come by as they are haunted by the "why did he do it?"

As far as wild theories go, I hope I am not rehashing something already mentioned. Is it at all possible that the co-pilot was brainwashed, rather hypnotized? (I know, reeks of a hollywood plot, ala, manchurian candidate). I do happen to know at least one person who gave up smoking in a bang, after hypnotic therapy. One day he craved - next day the craving was gone. So there would be trigger words that should be analyzed I suppose anything out of standard conversation between two pilots will be scrutinized in detail by folks far cleverer than me...

RIP poor innocents...

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