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Andy33
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 46):
Does LH have an ab initio program? If so, was this guy a graduate? I heard CNBC's pilot/expert say good things about the European ab initio model.

Exactly right. It is common amongst legacy airlines in Europe because there simply isn't the volume of ex-military pilots, or the volume of general aviation, to produce enough pilots otherwise. Nor is there a vast fleet of regional jets for pilots to graduate through.

I really don't see what the number of hours has to do with it - he didn't crash the plane because of inexperience did he? In fact he knew exactly how to achieve what he wanted to do.

Only a few months ago a-net was full of people prophesying the end of US regional aviation because the FAA had increased the hours requirement and the new level made the whole pilot training edifice in the USA unworkable....
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 47):
I don't know why everyone assumes he had another depression. He had medical problems, but his doctor in charge has said that while he could not disclose details of his problems due to confidentiality, they were not of psychological nature.

Maybe we should just accept that he was an evil nut?

Suicide is one of the diagnostic features of depression, unless there is a clear rational basis (however evil). In this instance, there seems to be no rational basis, plus it seems he had a history of depression. So as a working assumption it seems to me to be a reasonable one.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting PhB95 (Reply 43):
English : According to an internal source contacted by Europe1, AF will make the presence of 2 pilots in the cockpit mandatory for the full duration of its plane's flights. That decision was made to insure such an event, altough very rare, can happen again

Wow... that's not two crew members but 2 _pilots_! What, no pee break? That could also lead to dangerous situations...
 
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par13del
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
heads must roll at Lufthansa, and the first head is the one of the CEO.

If the CEO goes that is just a figure head / feel good termination, the CEO most likely had very little or nothing to do with day to day procedures / policies. However, it would allow others to remain and reform over time since one would have already been held responsible.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
If two doctors agree that a pilot is unfit for work (for whatever reason), then there must be a compulsion for the employer to be advised - a pilot cannot be allowed to simply ignore the medical situation as Lubitz did.

So who will co-ordinate the multiple results from multiple doctors, the patient or the doctors collaborating?
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 52):
Wow... that's not two crew members but 2 _pilots_! What, no pee break? That could also lead to dangerous situations...

Well, there are solutions to that:
* catheterize pilots
* wear diapers
* use bottles and pans (as in hospital)
 
Andy33
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:06 pm

Or possibly check the translation from French to English?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting rabenschlag (Reply 54):
Well, there are solutions to that:
* catheterize pilots
* wear diapers
* use bottles and pans (as in hospital)

Few years ago i was flying on a Learjet with no bathroom, the crew did have a type of plastic bag with some type of chemical inside, when you finish, the chemicals freezes and become like crystal, on arrival you dispose of the bag.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Restop-1-D...posable-Urine-Bags-4-Pack/10902895

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:20:19]
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scbriml
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 22):
As for a compulsion for an employer to be advised, you're treading on some very delicate legal ground, that when crossed sets a bad precedent and would only result in people with issues not seeking medical help. This is not how to handle the problem.

It's not so delicate when your day to day job puts hundreds of lives at risk. I want to get on a plane knowing that my pilots are fit for work - not worrying that one of them might be unfit to fly and has simply not told the airline or wilfully ignored a medical recommendation to not work.   
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Heinkel
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting rabenschlag (Reply 54):
rabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1030 posts, RR: 0


Quoting s5daw (Reply 52):Wow... that's not two crew members but 2 _pilots_! What, no pee break? That could also lead to dangerous situations...
Well, there are solutions to that:
* catheterize pilots
* wear diapers
* use bottles and pans (as in hospital)


Glider pilots use bottles or hoses...
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 8):
Depression can be a sudden onset thing. Unless you're also suggesting that employers would have the right to monitor the employees personal life to the finest detail (oh you broke up with your significant other, well you can't fly till you talk to our staff shrink). Where do you draw the line so that is ACTUALLY has a benefit.

Medically speaking, Depression isn't "sudden onset", if it doesn't fit into specific parameters. Take a gander at the DSM-5, you will see what I mean. I know people say they are "depressed" all the time, but it doesn't mean anything medically unless you see a professional and the symptoms fit certain parameters.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 55):
Or possibly check the translation from French to English?

I don't speak french, but I'm pretty sure i understand " la présence de deux pilotes dans le cockpit "
And google translate indeed confirms that I do.
 
PhB95
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:18 pm

Quote s5daw : Wow... that's not two crew members but 2 _pilots_! What, no pee break? That could also lead to dangerous situations...

That's what they wrote, but it's perhaps not what will be implemented. According to other news feeds here, it's probably the same rule as other companies, so a FA may take the vacant seat  
from Philippe near Paris
 
osiris30
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 52):
Wow... that's not two crew members but 2 _pilots_! What, no pee break? That could also lead to dangerous situations...

A little extreme and agreed likely to cause bigger issues.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):
It's not so delicate when your day to day job puts hundreds of lives at risk.

If you say so. You realize there's an awful lot of jobs that potentially put hundreds of lives at risk right:

Doctors
Teachers
Nursers
Retail clerks (nothing like going crazy in a packed mall at Christmas and shooting everyone)
Military
Police
I mean the list is literally endless...

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):
I want to get on a plane knowing that my pilots are fit for work - not worrying that one of them might be unfit to fly and has simply not told the airline or willfully ignored a medical recommendation to not work.

Well you better never get on an aircraft again, because it will never happen. People will just avoid going to the doctors to have any checks done. You seem to think there is a simple diagnostic test for mental disorders. This just simple isn't the case. If people don't self-report those issues to doctors most professionals will miss them during an annual check-up/out.

I get you're scared of someone killing you because they have a mental problem, but frankly, you're already living with that reality every single time you step out of your house. Unless you're condoning locking up anyone with a mental problem... if you are then I suggest you volunteer for the front of the line, because a doctor could make a case for unrealistic fear being based in paranoia and you're a threat to yourself and others (and no I'm not calling you paranoid, or saying you suffer from a mental disability, rather I'm pointing out how dangerous what you're proposing is).

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 59):
Medically speaking, Depression isn't "sudden onset", if it doesn't fit into specific parameters. Take a gander at the DSM-5, you will see what I mean. I know people say they are "depressed" all the time, but it doesn't mean anything medically unless you see a professional and the symptoms fit certain parameters.

Medically speaking you're correct.. but the symptoms of depression can be rapid onset or triggered and lead to the same outcome with or without medical diagnosis, which is the same thing for the practical context of this discussion... you would have to monitor someone 24/7 to be sure they weren't suffering from some mental disorder and haven't been triggered into one.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:23:19]
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CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:23 pm

Time for me to play devil's advocate here and work with the remaining areas of doubt.

1. A person with a mental-health issue may also have any sort of physical ailment, even a young one, which is totally unrelated to the mental-health issue. Narcolepsy, for example, or uncontrolled hypoglycemia.

2. Could it be possible that SOP, for at least the captain and/or copilot on this flight, was to always select "LOCK" when one pilot left the cockpit? If so, then obviously the pilot still in the cockpit would have to remain conscious. It would seem dangerous for this to be SOP. Do any pilots do this? Anyone here?

3. Robin said something to the effect that Lubitz started acting strange partway through the flight - delayed answers - disconnected.

4. Is it possible that whatever this physical ailment may have been, or medicines prescribed for it, resulted in some sort of confusion/psychosis/loss-of-consciousness, possibly drug-induced, which had been coming on since the beginning of the flight, that led him to think that somehow he was alone in the cockpit, and had to dial in an emergency descent? More specifically, could it be that it was normal for them to LOCK the door, but that Lubitz was quickly sliding into some sort of altered mental state, and then passed out, unable to respond to the captain, with the door still in LOCK mode? We have not heard how long the captain was out of the cockpit before attempting reentry. Maybe the FO was about to pass out, had been feeling increasingly bad but was trying to hold it together in front of the captain, and then when the captain left he lost it, went into confusion, saw no other pilot beside him, and set an emergency descent, confused and not thinking clearly about the terrain ahead thinking he was trying to save the plane, and then passed out? (Remember that the descent started over water.) Pilots in hypoxia have done some very strange things. But so could a pilot about to lose consciousness from a medical reason, maybe even from some medicine he took. Sometimes a new medicine can have a drastic effect on one patient, where it wouldn't badly affect another. What are the chances that the doctor who wrote the "do not work" note, also prescribed something, possibly something new?

Yes, I know that's all low percentage. But, for the sake of fairness, I wanted to work with the last bit of daylight between murder, and something very unfortunate happening to the FO, which led to a terrible accident. I am uncomfortable calling this murder or suicide just yet. We still have an unknown, in my opinion. This is where video footage of the cockpit, or running biometrics on the pilots, just as they do with astronauts, is critically missing. It may become key to determine what medicines Lubitz was on, and whether the doctor prescribed him something new.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:30:16]
 
SCQ83
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:29 pm

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/luf...ves-2015-03-27?link=MW_latest_news

So it looks like Lufthansa wants to give the victims' relatives 50,000 EUR each (in addition to the compulsory compensation to be paid by the insurance). Way to avoid multi-million euro court settlements? A bit fishy IMO.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:29:57]
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 63):
Yes, I know that's all low percentage. But, for the sake of fairness, I wanted to work with the last bit of daylight between murder, and something very unfortunate happening to the FO, which led to a terrible accident. I am uncomfortable calling this murder or suicide just yet. We still have an unknown, in my opinion.

I must say I'm with you. Even though the suicide scenario kinda fits, there are other scenarios which could happen, and it is very probable we will never know the truth.

I'm kinda surprised LH is jumping on the pilot so soon in the investigation. You know, the first duty of a CEO is to shareholders and protecting their value. Is suicide better of the two options? Just consider it... a disabled pilot alone in the cockpit opens question why LH didn't have 2 people in cockpit policy before...
 
Markam
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 63):
1. A person with a mental-health issue may also have any sort of physical ailment, even a young one, which is totally unrelated to the mental-health issue. Narcolepsy, for example, or uncontrolled hypoglycemia.

According to most serious reports (The Guardian, for example) the investigators believe that the Captain introduced the emergency access code, but that it was overridden by the First Officer. The latter seems like quite a purposeful action which I imagine that one needs to be quite conscious to perform.

I think that it is good to explore all options and play devils advocate, but I think that given the evidence that has been released so far, it is difficult to find an alternative explanation to murder-suicide.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 62):
Medically speaking you're correct.. but the symptoms of depression can be rapid onset or triggered and lead to the same outcome with or without medical diagnosis, which is the same thing for the practical context of this discussion... you would have to monitor someone 24/7 to be sure they weren't suffering from some mental disorder and haven't been triggered into one.

Something like bipolar disorder, which now actually has been revised according to the DSM-5 (Bassically this thing revised most of Psychiatry), could be rapid onset when the episodes happen. Its possible he had this, but without access to medical records, all we can do is speculate. I don't think something like Acute Stress disorder, or Dysthmia, would cause someone to be suicidal. Of course, I'm speaking from a textbook perspective. In the real world, these conditions often mix with each other.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:37:02]
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 63):
It may become key to determine what medicines Lubitz was on, and whether the doctor prescribed him something new.

And whether it was the prescribed medication which led to the 'unfit to fly' designator on the day of the crash, rather than the underlying condition itself. Pure speculation, until we get more details.
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:35 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 65):
Is suicide better of the two options?

Any liability questions aside, for the victims' families - not to mention the co-pilot's - I think it would make all the difference in the world to know with a good degree of certainty whether this was a terrible accident or an intentional act. There's a moral burden to do everything possible to determine this. I sure hope that the investigation into the medical angle is conducted very thoroughly and fairly, with no political consideration. And obviously, due to the severity of the impact, this will not be easy.
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:36 pm



Quote:
I'm kinda surprised LH is jumping on the pilot so soon in the investigation. You know, the first duty of a CEO is to shareholders and protecting their value. Is suicide better of the two options? Just consider it... a disabled pilot alone in the cockpit opens question why LH didn't have 2 people in cockpit policy before...

I am a bit surprised as well, because you *want* to hope it's something like a fainting spell or panic attack at the worst possible time. Yet the captain would've regained access in those cases. So occam's razor is pointing to malicious intent.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:37:11]
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting Markam (Reply 66):
According to most serious reports (The Guardian, for example) the investigators believe that the Captain introduced the emergency access code, but that it was overridden by the First Officer. The latter seems like quite a purposeful action which I imagine that one needs to be quite conscious to perform.

So has it been determined as fact that the lock system was set in NORM mode, instead of LOCK mode? This is a critical distinction. And this would make finding the FDR even more critical, if the FDR would show what position the door switch was in.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:39:16]

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:45:04]
 
osiris30
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 67):
Of course, I'm speaking from a textbook perspective. In the real world, these conditions often mix with each other.

  

Of course there's the other issue of minor symptoms/conditions (pre-existing) being worsened by traumatic life events as well. The point I was making is, unless you monitor someone's life to the level where they have no privacy whatsoever anymore you will not be able to catch all mental disorders or breakdowns. Even if you did monitor someone 24/7 you might still miss certain things. Humans are 'hard' to figure out sometimes.

Having personally dealt with people with (diagnosed) PTSD, depression, anxiety, bi-polar disorder (and a few more I'm sure I'm forgetting about) on a daily basis in my life has given me a different take mental illness than I had in my 20s before I was exposed to all these (wonderful, if troubled) people. (Side-note, luckily no one person I've known has had all those conditions, rather they were spread out over multiple people, although some had more than one on the list).
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 63):
2. Could it be possible that SOP, for at least the captain and/or copilot on this flight, was to always select "LOCK" when one pilot left the cockpit?

That's obviously a potentially deadly SOP, and very unlikely.

The altitudes for the descent were entered in two steps, first set to 13000 feet, and then set to 100 feet, from the transponder data. Two distinct rotations of the knob.
 
CO953
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 73):

That's obviously a potentially deadly SOP, and very unlikely.

The altitudes for the descent were entered in two steps, first set to 13000 feet, and then set to 100 feet, from the transponder data. Two distinct rotations of the knob.

Ah - I missed that there were two separate settings. Thank you!

I wonder how the reported turn (reported early on but really not discussed) would correlate, timewise, with those two actions?

By the way, just to throw this out there: elevation of Marseille Provence airport is 70 ft AMSL.

[Edited 2015-03-27 12:47:08]
 
Markam
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 71):
So it has been determined as fact that the lock system was set in NORM mode, instead of LOCK mode? This is a critical distinction.

Since they supposedly got this from the audio, and the First Officer was not communicating, I imagine that they got this from the reaction of the Captain to his emergency code not working.

In any case, my apologies if this information has been mentioned before, but have not found it: would the (Captain's, if there is more than one) emergency code not work with the lock system in LOCK mode? If it is an "emergency" code and in any case it can be (proactively) overridden from inside the cockpit, to have a mode in which the code does not work seems quite pointless, doesn't it? I am thinking, for example, an scenario in which everyone inside the cockpit becomes unconscious for whatever reason.

Again, I think that your exercise of examining alternative possible explanations is a healthy one, but I am afraid that in this case the reality will very likely be as horrible as it sounds.  
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting Markam (Reply 66):
According to most serious reports (The Guardian, for example) the investigators believe that the Captain introduced the emergency access code, but that it was overridden by the First Officer. The latter seems like quite a purposeful action which I imagine that one needs to be quite conscious to perform.

That would mean he was fully aware of what he was doing, but it makes no sense.

He would have to keep over riding the code.

He would likely just start the LOCK timer, which then requires no further action from him to keep the Captain out for the preset time.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 74):
Ah - I missed that there were two separate settings. Thank you!

I wonder how the reported turn (reported early on but really not discussed) would correlate, timewise, with those two actions?

If the units are set to 1,000 then presumably it is 25 clicks of the knob to get from 38000 to 13000?

If so, then it's hard to imagine that even the first setting is unintentional.

I haven't heard anything about any unusual turns.
 
Markam
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 76):
That would mean he was fully aware of what he was doing, but it makes no sense.

He would have to keep over riding the code.

He would likely just start the LOCK timer, which then requires no further action from him to keep the Captain out for the preset time.

Again, all this is according to reports, so I am happy to be corrected, but apparently if the emergency entry code is overridden from the inside a 5 minute delay countdown for opening the door is activated (I think that I read in one of the previous posts that the 5 minute setting is a configurable one, and can be 5-15 minutes, or something like that). If the descent was about 8 minutes, and assuming that it took the Captain more than 3 to go to the restroom and realize that something was wrong, that would give the First Officer time to crash the plane without having to override the emergency entry code more than once.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 72):

Of course there's the other issue of minor symptoms/conditions (pre-existing) being worsened by traumatic life events as well. The point I was making is, unless you monitor someone's life to the level where they have no privacy whatsoever anymore you will not be able to catch all mental disorders or breakdowns. Even if you did monitor someone 24/7 you might still miss certain things. Humans are 'hard' to figure out sometimes.

Having personally dealt with people with (diagnosed) PTSD, depression, anxiety, bi-polar disorder (and a few more I'm sure I'm forgetting about) on a daily basis in my life has given me a different take mental illness than I had in my 20s before I was exposed to all these (wonderful, if troubled) people. (Side-note, luckily no one person I've known has had all those conditions, rather they were spread out over multiple people, although some had more than one on the list).

I totally agree with you and yes, there is so much we don't know about the brain and these disorders. Many times, something like dysthmia (a low grade form of depression that is present for at least 2 years) could be worsened into something much more serious by a dramatic life event.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 52):
Wow... that's not two crew members but 2 _pilots_! What, no pee break?

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Quoting s5daw (Reply 52):
That could also lead to dangerous situations...

Or embarrassing or unsanitary ones.
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par13del
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 64):
So it looks like Lufthansa wants to give the victims' relatives 50,000 EUR each (in addition to the compulsory compensation to be paid by the insurance). Way to avoid multi-million euro court settlements? A bit fishy IMO.

Well, you could have all the families wait until the final official report is released, which will most likely be in a year or two.
The courts will then have to get involved, so will take even longer, so...........
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 59):
Medically speaking, Depression isn't "sudden onset", if it doesn't fit into specific parameters. Take a gander at the DSM-5, you will see what I mean. I know people say they are "depressed" all the time, but it doesn't mean anything medically unless you see a professional and the symptoms fit certain parameters.

Actually, a reactive depression can be pretty sudden in onset. More importantly, a suicidal state can be. And a manic state also, and that can be associated with impulsive agressive and suicidal behaviour.

That's why suicide is so hard to predict.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting Markam (Reply 78):
Again, all this is according to reports, so I am happy to be corrected, but apparently if the emergency entry code is overridden from the inside a 5 minute delay countdown for opening the door is activated (I think that I read in one of the previous posts that the 5 minute setting is a configurable one, and can be 5-15 minutes, or something like that). If the descent was about 8 minutes, and assuming that it took the Captain more than 3 to go to the restroom and realize that something was wrong, that would give the First Officer time to crash the plane without having to override the emergency entry code more than once.

I had the same observation. I think it is likely that by the time the Captain was coming back in they were already 3+ Minutes into the decent.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 63):
Yes, I know that's all low percentage. But, for the sake of fairness, I wanted to work with the last bit of daylight between murder, and something very unfortunate happening to the FO, which led to a terrible accident. I am uncomfortable calling this murder or suicide just yet. We still have an unknown, in my opinion. This is where video footage of the cockpit, or running biometrics on the pilots, just as they do with astronauts, is critically missing. It may become key to determine what medicines Lubitz was on, and whether the doctor prescribed him something new.

i am with you on this. until the investigation is over, there's no reason for us to discount a highly improbable yet much less sinister assessment.

after all, we're already talking about something that's highly improbable: suicide/mass murder by a seemingly stable and normal pilot. why is complete disorientation not something we should discuss, especially considering that his doctor had told him he shouldn't be working that day?
 
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sunstar
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:03 pm

Isn't there a hard lock system on the door. So if the aircraft lost power the door could still be locked by a deadbolt style lock..So if the co pilot used the secondary lock the keypad or anything else wouldn't matter..?
 
aerobus12
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:05 pm

Depression does not appear suddenly, but other disorders do, among others episodic dyscontrol syndrome (EDS) and brief psychotic disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_dyscontrol_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brief_psychotic_disorder
 
planemaker
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 84):
i am with you on this. until the investigation is over, there's no reason for us to discount a highly improbable yet much less sinister assessment.

Please read how the door lock system works... there have been many posts on it. He locked the other pilot out purposefully.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:10 pm

well, i guess i take my last post back. from the guardian:

Quote:
State prosecutors in Düsseldorf said medical documents had been retrieved from his flat there, which suggested that treatment for an unspecified illness was ongoing. Investigators found a torn-up current medical certificate. It was dated the day of the crash. “The assumption is that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and his professional circles,” prosecutors said, without specifying whether the illness was mental or physical. They added that no suicide note had been found. Nor were there indications of a “political or religious background”.

Citing police sources, the German media said that Lubitz had broken off his pilot training several times. At one point the Lufthansa flight school in Phoenix designated the man later left in sole charge of Germanwings flight 4U9525 from Barcelona to Düsseldorf as “not fit to fly”. He spent a year-and-a-half receiving psychiatric treatment. In 2009 he was diagnosed with a “severe depressive episode”, according to the German newspaper Bild.

Throughout this difficult period it appeared Lubitz was getting regular medical help. A special coding “SIC” was entered into his pilot’s licence, which means “Specific Regular Medical Examination”, according to Germany’s Federal Aviation Office. It is unclear, though, if this treatment was for episodes of depressive illness or some other complaint. Mental health professionals have urged caution until all the facts are known.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 87):
Please read how the door lock system works... there have been many posts on it. He locked the other pilot out purposefully.

i understand how the door lock system works. what others were suggesting is the possibility that a temporary psychosis caused by a physical/mental ailment might have put him into a state where he was panicked and acted irrationally.

i think the bottom line is that for this to happen, the co-pilot had to be "sick." the question is what kind of sick?
 
OMP777X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:50 pm

According to the latest reports, Lubitz had been treated at a hospital for "two months" for his undisclosed physical condition. That would appear to connect some of the dots as to why he had accrued only 630 some odd total hours, and only 100 at 4U on the A320. I'm sure that the authorities will allude to how his medical diagnosis could've been a factor in the accident at some point soon. They can't leave such a huge matter of causality unanswered in the minds of the family and the public for much longer.

http://m.firstpost.com/world/live-ho...t-for-last-two-months-2170837.html

Best,

OMP777X

Edit: Upon reading a different source it appears that he was treated over the last two months, but not necessarily in patient for two months as I had first read.

[Edited 2015-03-27 14:32:39]
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flytimbo77
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:52 pm

Must admit I find all the judgemental speculation and finger pointing quite depressing, not just here but in the media as well. I know that everyone needs something (or someone) to pin the blame on at times like these, but the constant drip-feeding of small bits of inconsequential information to the press is leading to some really nasty character assassination. We don't yet know what medical condition Lubitz was being treated for, it has been suggested that it was physical rather than mental health related. If he was seriously unwell, his judgement may have been impaired, he could have suffered a seizure or other serious episode, we just don't know. I just keep coming back to how his family must be feeling at this time, and how all this speculation and demonising will be hurting them when they are just as much in need of support as the other victims' families. Frankly I think the French and German authorities should refrain from releasing any further information to the media unless it actually constitutes relevant evidence, as opposed to clutching at straws.
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 62):
I get you're scared of someone killing you because they have a mental problem, but frankly, you're already living with that reality every single time you step out of your house.

There is no way to completely eliminate risk. Humans are very bad at accessing risk. Being in control of a car and driving is by many orders of magnitude more dangerous than flying, but people don't appreciate that risk because there is an illusion of control.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 48):

I agree. What's the point of the thread now?

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 62):
If you say so. You realize there's an awful lot of jobs that potentially put hundreds of lives at risk right:

Doctors
Teachers
Nursers
Retail clerks (nothing like going crazy in a packed mall at Christmas and shooting everyone)
Military
Police
I mean the list is literally endless...

In California, doctors with drug problems, even if not clean, are NOT denied their right to practice and patients are NOT notified their doctor may be high or drunk when treating them. It sounds crazy that their license isn't at least suspended, but that's how it is.

I would assume that if this is the case, things like mental disorders are even more protected.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 93):
In California, doctors with drug problems, even if not clean, are NOT denied their right to practice

Gee, that's a good one. In California of all places, I'd really expect a sign "this health facility includes doctors known to the state of California to use drugs".
 
Mir
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 73):
The altitudes for the descent were entered in two steps, first set to 13000 feet, and then set to 100 feet, from the transponder data. Two distinct rotations of the knob.

Remember that the transponder only sends snapshots at a certain moment in time. There were very likely more than two rotations.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
spacecadet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 82):
Actually, a reactive depression can be pretty sudden in onset. More importantly, a suicidal state can be. And a manic state also, and that can be associated with impulsive agressive and suicidal behaviour.

There's also what's technically referred to as a "psychotic break", which as the name implies is sudden and unexpected. I had a relative go through at least two of these. The first was completely without warning. No recent history of depression (25+ years ago she did have some help going through a divorce). Then one day, she gets some bad news about the health of another family member and boom, she loses *all* touch with reality. I don't mean she was just sad. I mean she was raving that the cops were coming to arrest her for murder and she had to turn herself in. It made absolutely no sense but there was no reasoning with her. She ended up in the hospital, and she was never fully "right" after that until the day she died.

Humans are, well, human. You can look for common patterns in how people behave but nobody is ever 100% predictable. There is no way whatsoever to fully screen out pilots who might do this sort of thing, and all of the suggestions I've seen so far for "tightening up" the screening process will make flying less safe because it will just discourage pilots from ever getting treatment. There's no such thing as a human being that's guaranteed to never get depressed; even someone who's been happily flying for 30 years can have a life event that sends him/her into a quick downward spiral or psychotic break. We are frankly all capable of anything; we are all human. You don't want that pilot to sit there and stew; you want him to know he can get help without the fear of being penalized for it.

There's a good argument to be made based on what we know so far that it's actually that fear that caused this FO to throw that doctor's note into the garbage and fly that day anyway. Nobody does that unless they're afraid for their job.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 94):
Gee, that's a good one. In California of all places, I'd really expect a sign "this health facility includes doctors known to the state of California to use drugs".

I know. Everything has a warning sign about "chemicals known to cause cancer" and the state expands the list each year and wants the stickers to be larger this year. It is now impossible to go ANYWHERE in this state without entering a building with one of those stickers. Further, they stick one on the inside window of your new car, which means that it is also unsafe to get in cars simply because of the risk of cancer. What I found ironic was when I peeled the sticker off, the stench of the adhesive was brain altering, which made me wonder if the glue they use to warn you about cancer risk is in itself a cancer risk. things that make you go hmmm...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
26point2
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):

The reference to the terrorists winning was meant to point out that we would not have these ridiculous cockpit doors if it was not for 9/11.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 41):
I'm still dumfounded that one of the most admired airlines of the world (Lufthansa) has new hires in the right seat of an A320 with 630 hours total time, and 100 hours in-type.

The United States Air Force put me in the right seat of a KC-135 with 250 hours total time, and 65 hours in type...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!

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