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boeingrulz
Posts: 521
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:45 am

The ICAO has some very specific guidelines for fitness to fly for individuals under drug treatment for depression.

Quote:

States’ certification of pilots and ATCOs taking medications accepted by the Licensing Authority should be conditional on
the following:
a) The applicant should be under the care of a medical practitioner experienced in the management of
depression;
b) The applicant should:
1) be stable on an established and appropriate dose of medication for at least four weeks before
returning to flying/ATC duties and exhibiting:
i) minimal, acceptable side-effects;
ii) no medication interactions or allergic response;
2) be subject to regular clinical review by the medical practitioner with progress reports provided to the
medical section of the Licensing Authority. The applicant may be involved in other concurrent
treatment (e.g. psychotherapy);
3) have no other significant psychiatric co-morbidities;
4) require no other psychoactive medications;
c) demonstrate symptoms of depression being well controlled, without evidence of psychomotor
retardation;
d) have no suicidal ideation or intent;
e) have no history of psychotic symptoms;
f) have no features of arousal (e.g. irritability or anger);
g) have a normal sleep pattern;
h) have resolution of any significant precipitating factors of the depression.

From the document found at: http://www.icao.int/publications/documents/8984_cons_en.pdf
 
antskip
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:50 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 140):
People are crucifying the co-pilot without knowing the full story

I wonder why!? The man by all accounts chose to murder a plane load of people that he was employed to keep safe, above everything. We will never know the full story, of course. But already the information is sufficient for people to "crucify' him, as an individual, and as a representative of his profession. The flow-on effects of his act of evil will be many and long-lasting. Civil aviation will never be the same again. Trust in his profession has been damaged. Germanwings and Lufthansa will also pay dearly - and not not just in money terms. The policy of isolating the flight deck from passenger hijack has enabled hijack-by-pilot, and the risks appear to have been well known. If nothing else, the gaping chasm that has been created in airline safety that was so dreadfully exploited in this incident and probably MH370 will now be fixed at last, and the so utterly avoidable deaths of so many people will not been in vain.

[Edited 2015-03-27 17:53:58]
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 151):
I wonder why!? The man by all accounts chose to murder a plane load of people that he was employed to keep safe, above everything. We will never know the full story, of course. But already the information is sufficient for people to "crucify' him, as an individual, and as a representative of his profession. The flow-on effects of his act of evil will be many and long-lasting. Civil aviation will never be the same again. Trust in his profession has been damaged. Germanwings and Lufthansa will also pay dearly - and not not just in money terms. The policy of isolating the flight deck from passenger hijack has enabled hijack-by-pilot, and the risks appear to have been well known. If nothing else, the gaping chasm that has been created in airline safety that was so dreadfully exploited in this incident and probably MH370 will now be fixed at last, and the so utterly avoidable deaths of so many people will not been in vain.

Whatever his reasons he did in fact carry out a pilot hijack and shattered the assumption that the cockpit would never be under malicious control. Imagine how much more damage could have been done if instead of hitting the mountain he had a target in mind maybe he was seeking revenge as he had plenty of time to act since the cabin crew could do nothing to stop him.

The isolate the flight deck = secure planes is a totally defunct idea. Having a cabin crew override which require the cooperation of the cabin crew to override the door is a good balance of security in either direction.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 152):

How do we know he didn't intend to crash into a city center but the opportunity didn't present itself because the pilot stepped out so early.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 41):
Beyond the continuing psychological debate, I'm still dumfounded that one of the most admired airlines of the world (Lufthansa) has new hires in the right seat of an A320 with 630 hours total time, and 100 hours in-type.

Performing climbs, stalls and touch-and-goes in a Beechcraft F33A Bonanza in Phoenix, Arizona followed by a few hours of turbine time in a Cessna CJ1 makes a pilot an eligible candidate for vaunted Lufthansa? Simply amazing. In the U.S. you'd need 1,500 hours to read checklists in the right seat of a regional turboprop.

Only because you have no idea how airline pilot training is conducted outside the U.S. It's intensive, and doesn't include 1400 hours as an instructor on C172s. I graduated to right seat on a C130 (in a war zone) with 250 hours - all ab initio training. Most fighter pilots have similar experience. The U.S. requirement of doing countless largely irrelevant hours is not the norm in most of the world, where pilots are trained to fly the aircraft they're going to fly.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
StuckinCMHland
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting globeex (Reply 130):

Thank you for the information. I saw a picture sometime in the past day or two where something that looked like a body bag was being lifted from the crash site, so I assumed there might be complete or mostly complete victims there in spite of the how hard the impact was. I just wonder how long and how deeply they will search and clean up the area, especially after they find the evidence needed to complete the investigation. It looks to me that a full cleanup will be a long, difficult, and expensive task with a significant risk to people for uncertain or limited value (understanding of course the emotional needs of the families).
 
heyjoojoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 48):

Maybe the moderator shoudl think about locking this thread until the official report is released.

We know what happened
We know where the A/C is.
We know it is criminal matter.
Due to Possible lawsuits no more verified information will be released on the
personal life of the co-pilot.

I don't see even idle speculation being usefull here, and actually the amount of
postings are way down compared to a few days ago.

Why? We are adults. We are capable of carrying on a discussion thread. If the topic is not suitable for you, then why not drop out?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 151):
But already the information is sufficient for people to "crucify' him, as an individual, and as a representative of his profession

Is it? Please give us the confirmed and verified information?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Gasman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:16 am

The reason for this most heinous act is obvious. This guy did it to ruin the life of his (ex) girlfriend with whom he had recently parted. And in that, he has probably succeeded. There is no amount psychology and counseling that will ever allow her to life quite a normal life again.

This is an example of narcissism in its most evil form.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 157):
Is it? Please give us the confirmed and verified information?

Just read the previous eleven threads. This isn't a murder trial where bizarre rules of evidence and such enter into the picture. This is an internet forum where critically assessed logic is used as the test.

I assume a forum full of lawyers would have a rather meaningless debate about the causes of this event. But they might entertain themselves.

Edit: substituted "event" for "accident"

[Edited 2015-03-27 18:39:10]
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 153):
How do we know he didn't intend to crash into a city center but the opportunity didn't present itself because the pilot stepped out so early.

We don't know, that is the point, if there is no way to override the door then your opening yourself to attacks the door was meant to protect against. A cabin crew override system that requires the explicit cooperation of all members allows correctly acting crew members and passengers to fight back. While in a hijacking the cabin crew can render their key pool useless by erasing their devices covertly.

I trust the crew as a group but I find it hard to say we can trust single individuals any more regardless if they are passenger/crew. A pooled system provides protection through numbers.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 158):
The reason for this most heinous act is obvious. This guy did it to ruin the life of his (ex) girlfriend with whom he had recently parted.

He just bought her an Audi ! !
What, he first buys her a car, then she leaves him and then he snaps and when the captain leaves the cockpit . . .
All in one week ??
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 161):
What, he first buys her a car, then she leaves him and then he snaps and when the captain leaves the cockpit . . .

Or he bought her the Audi because of guilt he felt for letting her down. He might have felt like a worthless pos and she was right to leave him.

Who knows?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 158):
The reason for this most heinous act is obvious. This guy did it to ruin the life of his (ex) girlfriend with whom he had recently parted. And in that, he has probably succeeded. There is no amount psychology and counseling that will ever allow her to life quite a normal life again.

If anything this is proof that not being in a relationship with the FO was the right thing.

[Edited 2015-03-27 18:45:54]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 162):
Or he bought her the Audi because of guilt he felt for letting her down. He might have felt like a worthless pos and she was right to leave him.

Who knows?

What 28 year old buys his girlfriend an Audi? One for you and one for her? I would assume that kind of gifts at the minimum are for a fiancée...But I´ve only heard of such gifts to a wife.

Maybe things are different in Germany.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:48 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 164):
What 28 year old buys his girlfriend an Audi?

This one.

You know, the sound of one hand clapping and all that.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:59 am

I'd just like to briefly chime in regarding speculation that the co-pilot was being treated for depression.

I am being treated for depression. I know there are anti-depressants that the FAA approves for pilot use. I also know that I'm not depressed everyday. Different people have it differently. I know that if I had a job where being on a certain medication could cost me my job - and I'm talking legal, medication - not anything like marijuana - yeah, I'd hide it from my employer. I have my up days where I'm feeling good, and I have down days, where I might be depressed, in pain (from various injuries), etc. None of that would keep me from doing a job.

Marc
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 166):
None of that would keep me from doing a job.

I guess that you've ever hit a really deep depression - hit rock bottom. I have, I can understand a complete absence of reality.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 162):

Your post is both childish and immature. For the love of God I hope his parents aren't reading this forum.

Why don't you wait until all the facts are out before making these types of claims. You didn't know him.

I totally agree this crash is a tragedy but I'm not blaming him because I don't have all the facts.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 168):
Your post is both childish and immature. For the love of God I hope his parents aren't reading this forum.

Why don't you wait until all the facts are out before making these types of claims. You didn't know him.

I totally agree this crash is a tragedy but I'm not blaming him because I don't have all the facts.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but we're all (or most of us) living in a real world with other real human beings. If you prefer to live in a reader's digest world of superficiality that's your choice, don't try to impose it on me.
 
Gasman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 168):
but I'm not blaming him because I don't have all the facts.

I'm blaming him. I think we have enough facts to be able to do so.

The possibility that this was anything but an act of mass murder and individual suicide is infinitesimally small.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 140):
Amen. All these unqualified people talking about depression, mental illness has become quite boring.

I have a Phd and I am in licensed in clinical Psychology Thanks.

Quoting DDR (Reply 140):
Everyone is a sudden expert. People are crucifying the co-pilot without knowing the full story.

Se above, also when somebody locks himself WILLINGLY or NOT, he doesn't turn the ap altitude knob 4 times without wanting to do so, in case he was having some kind of medical problem such as diabetic coma, he would not have done that maneuver. The guy killed all aboard. LIVE WITH IT.

Quoting DDR (Reply 140):
And for everyone bitching about the cockpit door security because of 9/11, to my knowledge Germanwings has never flown the A320 to the U.S. so you can't blame America for a German company electing to reinforce the cockpit door.
And for the posters who have suggested that each crew member should be given "part of a code" to put together to open the cockpit door NO THANKS. In that scenario, the terrorists would just kill us off one by one.
I have flown before the reinforced cockpit door and after the reinforced cockpit door and I feel much safer the way it is now. And remember, for security reasons, there are safety procedures in place which are not discussed on public forums.

This I agree, why change the procedures when you are selecting the lower probability scenario.

Quoting DDR (Reply 144):
However as a flight attendant, I happy happy with the way things are now. Honestly, the thought of a pilot crashing a plane has never occurred to me since I stared flying 17 years ago. The basic premise is you can not prepare for every situation possible. You just can't.

I still trust the guys behind the locked door more than the 200 to 300 people sitting on the other side.

Amen to this !

I think things should stay as they are, and make security and screening more strict for crews, the life of people who work in this industry is quite difficult, sometimes solitary and with stressful situations, some of them will have the tools to handle those, some wont.

I really wonder if the first officer was on meds, because in my experience using meds to function "properly" is dangerous, specially if said person is in a profession where trust and reliability is important.

By the way things are being portrayed this guy had a exogenous reactive depressive state, the kind of person who feels bad because "its everyones fault that he feels miserable", so in the end "they" must pay for his miserable feelings towards life, you may have seen those guys when someone seemingly calm, completely loses "it" and becomes violent and irrational, there are so many levels of it, depending on how many this person has endured/withstood/hold up inside/or suffered in silence. This guy was way over pissed, and di not care at all at the consequences of his acts... and YES such traits can be discovered with proper screening.

Sadly they did not and we know the outcome, things will change after this tragedy...

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:21 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 169):

I hope you are never in a jury, seriously.

If this guy suffered from a real emotional illness, then he was not responsible for his actions.

Jeez, you're a real kind hearted person. I'm done debating with someone like you.
 
Thomaas
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 172):

Quoting tailskid (Reply 169):

I hope you are never in a jury, seriously.

If this guy suffered from a real emotional illness, then he was not responsible for his actions.

Jeez, you're a real kind hearted person. I'm done debating with someone like you.

I can't agree with this statement when it comes to depression. You don't see people killing other people because they are depressed and I doubt that in a court hearing suffering of depression would be grounds to declare the accused criminally not responsible for his actions. This is not schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. A person with depression still has all of their senses and can still tell the difference between right and wrong.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 172):
If this guy suffered from a real emotional illness, then he was not responsible for his actions.

Regardless of underlying conditions, everybody is ultimately responsible for their own actions.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 171):

Red Baron, I do apologize to you. You are more than qualified to speak on the subject. I did not know your credentials. Please accept my sincere apology.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 171):

I think things should stay as they are, and make security and screening more strict for crews, the life of people who work in this industry is quite difficult, sometimes solitary and with stressful situations, some of them will have the tools to handle those, some wont.

Not changing anything in response to an air crash that clearly shows the door control logic is defective is a very bad idea. Copycat crimes will occur and possibly the MH370 one could have been a case as well.

Screenings can't help you when your banging on a locked door as you and your passengers know that they are all going to die because the stupid door lock won't open because the designers never conceived the possibility of a malicious person being in control of the cockpit. People can lie and escape screening efforts and the root cause is the door can't be opened from the cabin even if the terrorists/suicidal pilot is on the flight deck side.

Doing nothing because it is "rare" is basically called the ostrich algorithm. I don't really think people/family would like it if another incident happens because the abuse case is well publicly known and you say your all just outliers suck it up.

The door logic as it stands is defective, a pooled key system that the cabin crew have would provide a secure means to override the door lock.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 172):
Jeez, you're a real kind hearted person. I'm done debating with someone like you.

I've been very close to where I believe he was, I have great empathy for him.

Imo, you are looking at a three dimensional world in only two dimensions (or four vs three etc.)
You'll never understand until it happens to you.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:34 am

Some have made the suggestion that transportation employers be notified by doctors of certain mental or physical conditions. That already can happen in most jurisdictions for airline pilots - they fail their annual exam or with some conditions the pilot is suspended until well or medical professionals determined they are unable to fly. They may be required to notify the licensing authority for pilots. Same with cars, trucks, doctors can notify those that issue driver's licenses that the person should not be on the road due to health or some mental illnesses or conditions. One problem with pilots, as has happened in the past, are that they may like to keep their license or doctors may be very reluctant to notify employers of licensing authorities, as happen with car drivers, out of fear of hassles from their patient or causing economic or other problems on them.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 177):

im just trying to defend him because no one else will. I've flown with pilots for many years and most feel bad if it was just a bumpy landing.

I just can't imagine a pilot in good mental health hurting his passengers. Andreas was not himself, a professional pilot, when this happened. I refuse to believe it.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 175):
Red Baron, I do apologize to you. You are more than qualified to speak on the subject. I did not know your credentials. Please accept my sincere apology.

No offense taken.

Last week the brother of a friend of mine committed suicide, he had everything material anyone could ask for, a wonderful (and pregnant) wife, and a successful career ... I have seen the mayhem he created with his actions on his parents, siblings, and even coworkers... nobody could understand the WHY, but he did it, and now afterwards the small details and ref flags are coming, but nobody took his jokes seriously, and nobody knew he was feeling so bad, in the end he suffered alone.

Then there are the explosive. manic kind and those are way more dangerous and unpredictable, some even go hyper because of meds, that is why treating a manic depressive is very difficult, because meds work differently with each individual.

I think some procedures might be changed to ensure this wont happen again, but the basis for the security as it stands today is quite sound, and if anything should be changed, they should put a video camera on the cockpit that is non definable to see if there is abnormal behavior on the cockpit, (a combative FO anyone? an abusive Captain?) these kind of things can diminish these tragedies, but in my view if someone on the cockpit wants to kill you THEY most probably WILL.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 180):

I am sorry for your brother's loss. Suicide is horrible because it leaves us behind with all kinds of questions.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 179):
im just trying to defend him because no one else will.

To put it vary bluntly, you are concerning yourself with the hurt feelings of an already dead person when the reason we are here discussing this is because 150 (also) innocent people lost their lives and all their families and friends will have to carry that for the rest of their lives.

The exact same disproportionate and misplaced concern is present in the MH370 thread, only there it is 268 innocent people lost their lives, plus one not so innocent captain.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 180):
I think some procedures might be changed to ensure this wont happen again, but the basis for the security as it stands today is quite sound, and if anything should be changed, they should put a video camera on the cockpit that is non definable to see if there is abnormal behavior on the cockpit, (a combative FO anyone? an abusive Captain?) these kind of things can diminish these tragedies, but in my view if someone on the cockpit wants to kill you THEY most probably WILL.

The basis of security assumes the flight deck is never malicious this is patently false. The cabin crew as a group can be trusted with the ability to override the flight deck door.

The security is only sound against external hijacking providing no resistance and actually amplifies the danger of a hijacking that occurs on the secure side. A security camera doesn't do anything if the door cannot be unlocked with a pooled cabin crew key. What your going to do watch him crash the plane on the video screen and scream at the screen?

The point of the door override is that if someone in the cockpit wants to crash the plane at least give the crew and passengers a chance at surviving, stopping another 9/11 situation. The door lock was designed in reaction to 9/11 will it take another few crashes into cities to fix a simple problem with the logic of an electronic door strike?
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 182):

We do not know what happened to MH 370. No one does. Any ideas are pure speculation. Again, I will trust any pilot any day.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 184):
We do not know what happened to MH 370. No one does. Any ideas are pure speculation. Again, I will trust any pilot any day.

We know that the plane was deliberately turned around.

We know the transponder was disabled, the data-link was disabled, and just the modem was pinging as part of standard sat-link protocols.

We know the CVR will be useless even if found (2 hours max and by the end of flight it was probably just breathing or silence)

We know that the plane is lost somewhere in the middle of an ocean which is perfect to cover up a suicide.

The big question of why no one could stop this from happening is easy for the hours that went by. The stupid door lock won't open from the cabin side if the person on the inside selects lock. You don't need to de-pressurize, you don't need to do anything because the door is "secure".
 
Markam
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:00 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 179):
I just can't imagine a pilot in good mental health hurting his passengers. Andreas was not himself, a professional pilot, when this happened. I refuse to believe it.

You are talking about someone who almost certainly killed 149 people either by action (by willfully locking out the Captain and crashing the plane, which at this point seems the more likely theory, given the available evidence) or by omission (by hiding a health condition from his employer, which might have caused him to become incapacitated when flying the plane solo - albeit, what a timing!). At the worst he is very likely a mass-murderer, and at the very least perhaps a reckless, irresponsible, unprofessional pilot. I have zero sympathy for him, and I think that it is disrespectful to the families of the victims to try to defend him when all the available points in one clear direction (one thing is to withhold judgement, another very different is to defend him).
 
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casinterest
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 184):
We do not know what happened to MH 370. No one does. Any ideas are pure speculation. Again, I will trust any pilot any day.

And we should trust pilots , but 370 is a mystery now, and it will remain one. It won't stop speculation ( even if the CVR/FDR are found). In this GW case, we now are nearly certain that a pilot chose to crash the plane and murder 149 other souls while committing suicide. Pilots have the knowledge, sklill, and pride to transport people every day. However, they also possess the skills and knowledge to hide their intentions from others should they chose to do something terrible. It is a matter of trust and Honor. In a world of thousands of pilots, there is always a bottom percentage ( no matter how minute), that is not quite up to the task.
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tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 187):
And we should trust pilots

We don't even know if it was the pilots in control the simple matter is once someone takes over the cockpit your screwed and you can't do anything even if it takes them hours to achieve their objective.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 188):

Very good point. But now everyone is ready to blame the pilots from MH. Come on people! We have no idea who was in that cockpit.

This site is starting to resemble a witch hunt.
 
oxymorph
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 187):
but 370 is a mystery now, and it will remain one

No, it's not. No, it won't.

  
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 189):
We have no idea who was in that cockpit.

We know that the last person heard from was the Captain who said good night to ATC... Just minutes before the plane did some interesting things before flying on to the middle of nowhere to simply vanish...
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tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 191):
We know that the last person heard from was the Captain who said good night to ATC... Just minutes before the plane did some interesting things before flying on to the middle of nowhere to simply vanish...

What we do know is that whatever happened if a malicious person (Pilots, crew, pax) took control of a flight deck with the existing door control logic your entire flight is screwed and you give the attacker unlimited time to act what they want to do is totally up to them they are isolated behind the super "secure" door.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 191):

That doesn't mean he was in command when the plane crashed. I can't prove he wasn't and you can't prove he was. That's a simple fact.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 188):
We don't even know if it was the pilots in control the simple matter is once someone takes over the cockpit your screwed and you can't do anything even if it takes them hours to achieve their objective.

Hate to bust the Bubble, but you are screwed when the Doctor pokes you with a needle, when the semi truck is pushing you from behind on the highway, when you get in a taxi, but yet we all do it. Because it is about life and trust and doing it the best everyone can. Pilots don't become pilots because they want it to be their last flight. They do it because they love it, and if they can make some money getting other folks to their destination, so muck the better.


Your statement is a like saying you are going to get electrocuted every time you flip a light switch. There is a chance, but it is so minute that their are more likely causes of death to occupy your time.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 190):
No, it's not. No, it won't

There are good guesses, but the truth of what happened is buried at the bottom of an ocean, and I am not sure that the FDR will yield much info, especially since the CVR was probably rendered useless after 5+ hours of uneventful flight. Even if we ever do find them, both may be corrupted beyond use.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 189):
Come on people! We have no idea who was in that cockpit.

His wife and four of his friends identified his voice in the “good night Malaysian Three Seven Zero” message.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:33 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 194):

Shh. Because of the Germanwings tragedy, all the experts on here know exactly what happened. They don't need proof, they have their imaginations.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 193):
That doesn't mean he was in command when the plane crashed.

It sure doesn't.

But it does not make sense for a hi-jacker to take the plane to the middle of nowhere.

Most likely it was a failed hi-jack attempt or one of the pilots did it IMHO - and we know the Captain was there just before the plane went silent and turned around and he also had some motive so that is why I go with the Captain did it scenario for now.

Quoting DDR (Reply 193):
I can't prove he wasn't and you can't prove he was. That's a simple fact.

I never said I could. But I prefer not to sit on the fence and criticize others for stating their opinion. I have no problem stating what I believe most likely happened.

Let's try to keep this thread about GW and not MH370, okay?
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tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 194):
Hate to bust the Bubble, but you are screwed when the Doctor pokes you with a needle, when the semi truck is pushing you from behind on the highway, when you get in a taxi, but yet we all do it. Because it is about life and trust and doing it the best everyone can. Pilots don't become pilots because they want it to be their last flight. They do it because they love it, and if they can make some money getting other folks to their destination, so muck the better.

Your statement is a like saying you are going to get electrocuted every time you flip a light switch. There is a chance, but it is so minute that their are more likely causes of death to occupy your time.

A doctor kills one at a time an engineer can kill thousands with a signature a pilot can kill hundreds flying into a mountain and thousands flying into that civil engineer's building. A semi-truck pushing you off the highway can kill a handful of people, same for a taxi. I trust groups of people to act correctly but I do not trust single individuals as you just can't tell. Groups of people are unlikely to be all totally insane, the same cannot be said for single individuals.

Hate to burst your bubble but trust is not such a simple blind faith thing. I trust flight crews as a group but I cannot say with certainty that a single one may be a bad apple.

A door key pool still places trust in the entire crew to do the right thing while protecting against a rouge member of the crew.

You know we made a ton of improvements to electrical switches to stop people from being electrocuted the isolation standards are very rigorous and they can be 99.99999% certain it is safe. There are however larger switches which when used could instantly kill you due to a random and difficult to detect failure. Do you know what we do when we switch those switches on/off? We wear a veritable bomb suit or use a robot to touch it. You cannot claim that mental health screening is even close to 99% accurate.

I'm suggesting we make the switch safer. Do you want the old knob tube bare wiring with exposed knife blade switches no fuses, no circuit breakers, no GFCI, no AFCI, no arc fault detection, no overload detection, no safety controls, no centralized monitoring, no over speed sensors, no fire suppression systems?

It is just a simple door lock control.
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 182):
The exact same disproportionate and misplaced concern is present in the MH370 thread, only there it is 268 innocent people lost their lives, plus one not so innocent captain.

No, it is there in the MH370 thread because we have no warning signs that Zaharie was anything other than a well adjusted, very competent 777 pilot. And the A/C has not been found, thus we do not have the CVR. And was not tracked on radar. Might be the same, might not. Don't know yet. The Germanwings, for all the unknowns, has a pretty good indicator of what happened. FO flew the A/C into an alp.
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